Deflategate merge -- pending appeal results

[NewColtsFan]

If all there was to account for Deflategate was the report,  then maybe -- maybe -- the Patriots would have a case.

 

But given the actions of Tom Brady,  the actions of the guy who took the footballs into the bathroom,  given the lack of cooperation by the franchise itself,   I think that takes all the air out of the argument and all the silly reports.

 

Sorry kids,   you're toast.

[21isSuperman]

ha! You pasted the Wells report at me where they claimed they accounted for the increase in pressure in the Colts balls from the longer time in the warmer ambient air...what all of the above points out is that there is no way they could properly account for that change since there is no record of how long the balls were in the ambient air before they were measured. Wells might have allowed for 5 minutes in 75 degree temperatures for all we know.

Except they take that into consideration when they do their analysis in the Wells report, so....

[Bad Morty]

If all there was to account for Deflategate was the report,  then maybe -- maybe -- the Patriots would have a case.

 

But given the actions of Tom Brady,  the actions of the guy who took the footballs into the bathroom,  given the lack of cooperation by the franchise itself,   I think that takes all the air out of the argument and all the silly reports.

 

Sorry kids,   you're toast.

I think the NFL had no clue that balls deflated naturally when they launched this sting operation. I think they thought it would be as simple as getting the footballs, sticking a gauge in them at halftime, seeing that they were lower than when the refs checked them pre-game, and that was it...case closed. What they now have is an extremely expensive and flawed science report that is inconclusive at best. Kind of embarrassing.

[Bad Morty]

Except they take that into consideration when they do their analysis in the Wells report, so....

yeah except no they really don't. They say they took into consideration, but as the new report points out, it is impossible for them to have taken it into consideration with any accuracy if they have no idea how long the Colts balls sat.

 

At the very least, you'd have to agree that the science aspect of the Wells report is pretty weak, and understandably so. The people who were measuring balls weren't sensitive to creating the "controlled environment" you'd need to be able to draw legitimate scientific conclusions. Wells is trying to back-door his way into something that supports the narrative he believes exists because of a few text messages. That's not how real science works, and that's basically what this new report is saying.

[21isSuperman]

yeah except no they really don't. They say they took into consideration, but as the new report points out, it is impossible for them to have taken it into consideration with any accuracy if they have no idea how long the Colts balls sat.

 

At the very least, you'd have to agree that the science aspect of the Wells report is pretty weak, and understandably so. The people who were measuring balls weren't sensitive to creating the "controlled environment" you'd need to be able to draw legitimate scientific conclusions. Wells is trying to back-door his way into something that supports the narrative he believes exists because of a few text messages. That's not how real science works, and that's basically what this new report is saying.

My goodness.  How many times are you going to blatantly ignore my response?  Here is what the Wells report says:

 

in addition, the equations listed above are applicable only to the gas conditions inside the football. Given that the footballs are undergoing temperature transitions as they are taken from the relatively warm locker room to the colder field and back into the warm locker room, it takes some time for the internal gas temperature within the football to reach equilibrium with the environment in which the football is sitting. it is important, therefore, to understand not only the magnitude of the temperature/pressure changes once the football comes to equilibrium with its environment, but also the amount of time it takes for temperature inside the football to reach equilibrium

 

Then, if you continue actually reading the report, they going into the Transient Analysis section, with the intent of "measur[ing] the internal transient pressure and temperature changes of a football while being transferred between environments of varying temperature", which is exactly what your and the AEI report are complaining about.  So yes, they do take those factors into consideration and they conclude that it doesn't make a difference.  I've shown you what the report says and even provided you with page numbers and a URL.  Meanwhile, you just continue to deny it and say no on the basis of another random report saying so.

 

It's incredibly obvious that you haven't even read the Wells report, even though I believe you claimed you did.  If you're going to try to continue this discussion, I really recommend you, at the very least, read the report and the parts I've highlighted for you before saying anything else.

 

Given your comments, I think it's also quite obvious that you don't have a lot of experience in the world of scientific research.  You say their methods are weak, but they are actually quite strong.  Show me where in their methods you actually see a problem.  If you haven't read them, I can explain how their testing works for you to clarify this point

[DougDew]

Science, schmience. People use that word so liberally these days.

[crazycolt1]

May I make a suggestion? Let's just all quit trying to convince the Patriot fans who think this was all a witch hunt to talk and whine to themselves. It is real apparent that facts do not matter to them. There is one thing being a fan and another thing defending a team that has been twice caught and convicted of actions deemed detrimental to the NFL. Those are the facts that no one can dispute. I have heard how the Patriot lawyers were going to shred all of this in court but yet the Patriots did not take this to court. I have heard every possible excuse that a person could make up as to why this matter happened except the truth. The deflection of a lot of Patriot fans is an insult to the intelligence of all involved. As I stated in an earlier post the facts are as follows. 1- the Patriots are now two times been found guilty of actions deemed detrimental to the NFL. 2- Kraft has been fined 1,250,000. dollars. Belichick 500,000. dollars. 3- a loss of 3 draft picks. 4- Brady suspended four games pending an appeal. But yet to the Patriot fans this was all just made up because of various reasons. Being a fan of a team does not automatically make your team innocent no matter what you choose to believe. You do the crime you pay for it without making excuses. It's not the end of the world so take your dose of medicine and move on without the non stop whine about being picked upon. At least Kraft has acted like a man about it and that is more than most Patriot fans have.

[Bad Morty]

The deflection of a lot of Patriot fans is an insult to the intelligence of all involved.

 

Which, to be honest, is a pretty small insult given this crowd.

[Bones_Jones]

none of you read this report. that's the most deflating thing about this whole thing.   so this 'uniquely qualified 3rd party' totally disapproves Wells report and yet, you guys are just 'pats are cheaters!' mode. 

When correct tests are performed, the evidence points to a conclusion that is inconsistent with the Wells findings. Our evidence suggests a specific sequence of events. The Wells report conclusions are likely incorrect, and a simple misunderstanding appears to have led the NFL to these incorrect conclusions . . . The fact that the average pressure of the Colts balls was significantly above the prediction of the Ideal Gas Law, while that of the Patriots balls was not, is inconsistent with the findings of the Wells report. Our conclusion that the warming of the balls during halftime is the key factor overlooked in the Wells report is supported by the observation that the readings of the intercepted Patriots football, measured separately from the other Patriots balls, came in almost precisely at the prediction of the law. Under the hypothesis asserted by the Well report, the odds of this Patriots ball matching the Ideal Gas Law prediction were between 1 out of 3 and 1 out of 300. It is therefore unlikely that the Patriots deflated the footballs.

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/06/14/opinion/deflating-deflategate.html?smid=tw-share&_r=2&referrer=

Our study, written with our colleague Joseph Sullivan, examines the evidence and methodology of the Wells report and concludes that it is deeply flawed. (We have no financial stake in the outcome of Deflategate.)


Our recommendation? When the N.F.L. hears Mr. Brady’s appeal of his suspension later this month, it should proceed with the knowledge that the Wells report is unreliable.

 

 

and it doesn't matter if mcnally called himself a 'deflator'.  he could wear tshirt that says 'i cheat for brady' and won't matter because at the end of the day there is a zero evidence of brady's involvement.

 

also why suspend these 2 guys?  because they can.  why wouldn't they suspend them?  you don't want these guys stick around because they have caused tremendous headache. 

 

 

[Bones_Jones]

I love how Colt fans ignore two FACTS:

The Colts apparently cheated as well, as their balls were also below the legal limit.

Secondly, a Colts employee illegally used a needle on the ball on the sideline. That's a violation of the rule .

But hey, witch hunts are more fun.

 

lesson learned from this thread and all the outcries of 'cheaters cheat!'  - jealousy is the fear of comparison.  it's a neurotic insecurity. 

 

[NewColtsFan]

I think the NFL had no clue that balls deflated naturally when they launched this sting operation. I think they thought it would be as simple as getting the footballs, sticking a gauge in them at halftime, seeing that they were lower than when the refs checked them pre-game, and that was it...case closed. What they now have is an extremely expensive and flawed science report that is inconclusive at best. Kind of embarrassing.

 

Yeah....

 

Except that the Colts' football's didn't deflate.      Whoops!

 

And all the rest of what I wrote -- you know -- the whole part that you conveniently ignored?!    Yeah,  that part.   The part where the actions speak louder than the words?!      Whoops, again.......

 

Sorry,  you're still toast.

 

I grant that it's possible Brady will find a judge to help him.   But that won't make him innocent of the charges.

 

Everybody outside of New England knows that's the longest of long shots....

[Bones_Jones]

  right now people have forgotten about the whole thing. people moved on.  it's a ground hog day.   nobody really gives a crap.  BUT espn will beat this to death again because appeal is coming soon near you

 

 

here is what's gonna happen.

 

1.brady will serve suspension

 

2. fans and media will talk about it for weeks because there is nothing to talk about. nba is over, baseball is boring.  more NFL news to talk about. yeay, clap, clap, clap

 

3. conversation will go on until preseason officially starts

 

4. brady comes back from the suspension - will generate more conversation.  it's gonna be  'look! Jimmy G is great!  must be the system! Brady was a system QB!'(this will happen because jimmy G is the future - that kid will wreck havoc for 10 years after brady retires)

 

5. brady comes back and kicks a$$. espn and media will praise brady yet some *s will also raise a new issue -  'how is brady so good still?  is he cheating the system?'

[Bones_Jones]

Yeah....

 

Except that the Colts' football's didn't deflate.      Whoops!

 

And all the rest of what I wrote -- you know -- the whole part that you conveniently ignored?!    Yeah,  that part.   The part where the actions speak louder than the words?!      Whoops, again.......

 

Sorry,  you're still toast.

 

I grant that it's possible Brady will find a judge to help him.   But that won't make him innocent of the charges.

 

Everybody outside of New England knows that's the longest of long shots....

 

 'Except that the Colts' football's didn't deflate.'  really?   i mean i thought people stopped asking that question months ago. 

obviously you didn't read both reports.

[HOZER]

right now people have forgotten about the whole thing. people moved on. it's a ground hog day. nobody really gives a crap. BUT espn will beat this to death again because appeal is coming soon near you

here is what's gonna happen.

1.brady will serve suspension

2. fans and media will talk about it for weeks because there is nothing to talk about. nba is over, baseball is boring. more NFL news to talk about. yeay, clap, clap, clap

3. conversation will go on until preseason officially starts

4. brady comes back from the suspension - will generate more conversation. it's gonna be 'look! Jimmy G is great! must be the system! Brady was a system QB!'(this will happen because jimmy G is the future - that kid will wreck havoc for 10 years after brady retires)

5. brady comes back and kicks *. espn and media will praise brady yet some *s will also raise a new issue - 'how is brady so good still? is he cheating the system?'

All have forgotten? Apparently the *'s fan who started this thread has not forgotten.

[21isSuperman]

none of you read this report. that's the most deflating thing about this whole thing.   so this 'uniquely qualified 3rd party' totally disapproves Wells report and yet, you guys are just 'pats are cheaters!' mode. 

 

 

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/06/14/opinion/deflating-deflategate.html?smid=tw-share&_r=2&referrer=

 

 

 

and it doesn't matter if mcnally called himself a 'deflator'.  he could wear tshirt that says 'i cheat for brady' and won't matter because at the end of the day there is a zero evidence of brady's involvement.

 

also why suspend these 2 guys?  because they can.  why wouldn't they suspend them?  you don't want these guys stick around because they have caused tremendous headache. 

[21isSuperman]

 'Except that the Colts' football's didn't deflate.'  really?   i mean i thought people stopped asking that question months ago. 

obviously you didn't read both reports.

Don't act like you read them

[NewColtsFan]

 'Except that the Colts' football's didn't deflate.'  really?   i mean i thought people stopped asking that question months ago. 

obviously you didn't read both reports.

 

The Colts' football's were found to be legal.    Within the acceptable limits.

 

If you've got something that says otherwise,  feel free to share....

[crazycolt1]

Which, to be honest, is a pretty small insult given this crowd.

By your honesty?

[amfootball]

Suggestion... give it up. Brady is not going to Federal court as he's guilty as all hell.

dw, he is going to court. As I have told you before this isn't just about guilt or innocence, but the punishment itself which has never been done in the history of the NFL for ball tampering. And the NFL was not able to even prove his involvement. And again the last time a player of his stature, Brett Favre, did not hand over his phone in an investigation (his for sexual harassment where his phone was paramount in a criminal offense) the league gave him a 50k fine.

[Bad Morty]

My goodness.  How many times are you going to blatantly ignore my response?  Here is what the Wells report says:

 

in addition, the equations listed above are applicable only to the gas conditions inside the football. Given that the footballs are undergoing temperature transitions as they are taken from the relatively warm locker room to the colder field and back into the warm locker room, it takes some time for the internal gas temperature within the football to reach equilibrium with the environment in which the football is sitting. it is important, therefore, to understand not only the magnitude of the temperature/pressure changes once the football comes to equilibrium with its environment, but also the amount of time it takes for temperature inside the football to reach equilibrium

 

Then, if you continue actually reading the report, they going into the Transient Analysis section, with the intent of "measur[ing] the internal transient pressure and temperature changes of a football while being transferred between environments of varying temperature", which is exactly what your and the AEI report are complaining about.  So yes, they do take those factors into consideration and they conclude that it doesn't make a difference.  I've shown you what the report says and even provided you with page numbers and a URL.  Meanwhile, you just continue to deny it and say no on the basis of another random report saying so.

 

It's incredibly obvious that you haven't even read the Wells report, even though I believe you claimed you did.  If you're going to try to continue this discussion, I really recommend you, at the very least, read the report and the parts I've highlighted for you before saying anything else.

 

Given your comments, I think it's also quite obvious that you don't have a lot of experience in the world of scientific research.  You say their methods are weak, but they are actually quite strong.  Show me where in their methods you actually see a problem.  If you haven't read them, I can explain how their testing works for you to clarify this point

Stop and ask yourself why this research organization with vast amounts of academic resources and a sterling track record would publish this thorough and detailed analysis concluding that the Wells report didn't properly account for the re-inflation of the Colts balls in the ambient room temperature during half-time while "internet guy" says "yes they did - it's right there in the Wells report!!!!"

 

I have read what you posted several times. Of COURSE Wells believes this was accounted for...but if you bothered to read the AEI report with any objectivity, you would see why they believe Wells is flat out wrong...his methods were flawed, therefore his results and conclusions are flawed. It's not that difficult to understand. People just don't want to understand it because it destroys a narrative they want desperately to believe in.

 

Nobody deflated any footballs. I said that from day 1, and I'm saying it now.

[Cynjin]

 neurotic insecurity. 

 

 

That sums up the Pats fans on this board.

[Bad Morty]

That sums up the Pats fans on this board.

talk about keeping the comedy going...Colts fans are losing their minds here over the fact that a credible independent organization has cast serious doubt on the Wells Report. You like the story Wells provided you, even though that story was bought and paid for by the NFL whereas this one is just an honest research report by a group with no stake in this. Nobody wants to feel as though they've been duped, so I do understand why people don't want to accept the criticism...but that doesn't change the fact that the critique is legit. So much like you all have been saying, it's time to just accept the report here and stop fighting it. Wells blew it...he sold you all a lie.

[HOZER]

and a sterling track record

.

Wrong.....again, do some research on this,

"Think Tank."

[HOZER]

dw, he is going to court. As I have told you before this isn't just about guilt or innocence, but the punishment itself which has never been done in the history of the NFL for ball tampering. And the NFL was not able to even prove his involvement. And again the last time a player of his stature, Brett Favre, did not hand over his phone in an investigation (his for sexual harassment where his phone was paramount in a criminal offense) the league gave him a 50k fine.

The only reason the investigators weren't able to 100% prove his involvement is because he didn't cooperate with the investigation when he was asked for certain texts from his phone.

[Cynjin]

talk about keeping the comedy going...Colts fans are losing their minds here over the fact that a credible independent organization has cast serious doubt on the Wells Report. You like the story Wells provided you, even though that story was bought and paid for by the NFL whereas this one is just an honest research report by a group with no stake in this. Nobody wants to feel as though they've been duped, so I do understand why people don't want to accept the criticism...but that doesn't change the fact that the critique is legit. So much like you all have been saying, it's time to just accept the report here and stop fighting it. Wells blew it...he sold you all a lie.

 

 

Again, thanks for the laugh.  The spin, the deflection, the non-answers, the paranoia, the hypocrisy it is all very funny coming from almost all the Pats fans here.

[Bad Morty]

Again, thanks for the laugh.  The spin, the deflection, the non-answers, the paranoia, the hypocrisy it is all very funny coming from almost all the Pats fans here.

Says the person who seems more interested in psycho-analyzing Pats fans than addressing the report that is the subject of this thread.

 

I am legitimately interested in hearing why you dismiss the findings of this report. What is it about this particular analysis that you find is less credible than the Exponent analysis that was included in the Wells report?

[Bad Morty]

The only reason the investigators weren't able to 100% prove his involvement is because he didn't cooperate with the investigation when he was asked for certain texts from his phone.

So...therefore we can conclude that you believe there were text messages to McNally that said "deflate all the balls after the refs check them", even though they read all of Brady's texts to McNally and Jastremski when they got their phones? I think Brady simply said "*" because he was understandably outraged that he was being treated like a criminal by a league he has represented with honor for the entirety of his career. Owners got rich in part because of him and other superstars like him...for them to treat him like a cheater is sad and embarrassing for the league.

[crazycolt1]

It was the same Kraft who expected NFL to apologize to the Pats before the wells report.

 

It was the same Kraft who accepted punishment from NFL after the wells report.

 

You do the math.

I don't know Shane? I am beginning to think some of the Patriot fans don't know how to add?

[HOZER]

So...therefore we can conclude that you believe there were text messages to McNally that said "deflate all the balls after the refs check them", even though they read all of Brady's texts to McNally and Jastremski when they got their phones? I think Brady simply said "*" because he was understandably outraged that he was being treated like a criminal by a league he has represented with honor for the entirety of his career. Owners got rich in part because of him and other superstars like him...for them to treat him like a cheater is sad and embarrassing for the league.

If he had nothing to hide, then he would have nothing to worry about.......think about it....a huge portion of this mess could have been easily avoided if brady and the pats would have just FULLY cooperated instead of according to you saying "* guys, we refuse to be treated like criminals, we've never broke any rules!" Oh wait a minute........

[crazycolt1]

So...therefore we can conclude that you believe there were text messages to McNally that said "deflate all the balls after the refs check them", even though they read all of Brady's texts to McNally and Jastremski when they got their phones? I think Brady simply said "*" because he was understandably outraged that he was being treated like a criminal by a league he has represented with honor for the entirety of his career. Owners got rich in part because of him and other superstars like him...for them to treat him like a cheater is sad and embarrassing for the league.

No, what is sad is that Brady embarrassed himself and the Patriots. Any person who has the chance to prove someone wrong would have taken the opportunity to prove themselves not guilty. And also the players you mention also got rich because the owners paid them. It is a two way street. Kraft stood up for Brady and then Brady made Kraft look silly. If anyone should be mad it should be Kraft for backing up Brady and then Brady himself not cooperated with the NFL. The one person that is totally responsible for this is Brady. For him to be so arrogant not to cooperate with an investigation cost his owner 1 million dollars and his team to lose 2 draft picks. And in the meantime got himself suspended. All of us can speculate, debate, argue or anything we care to do but the bottom line is it falls all on Brady's shoulders.

[dw49]

So...therefore we can conclude that you believe there were text messages to McNally that said "deflate all the balls after the refs check them", even though they read all of Brady's texts to McNally and Jastremski when they got their phones? I think Brady simply said "*" because he was understandably outraged that he was being treated like a criminal by a league he has represented with honor for the entirety of his career. Owners got rich in part because of him and other superstars like him...for them to treat him like a cheater is sad and embarrassing for the league.

 

 

He wasn't asked to "turn over his phone." Stop embellishing....

[dw49]

dw, he is going to court. As I have told you before this isn't just about guilt or innocence, but the punishment itself which has never been done in the history of the NFL for ball tampering. And the NFL was not able to even prove his involvement. And again the last time a player of his stature, Brett Favre, did not hand over his phone in an investigation (his for sexual harassment where his phone was paramount in a criminal offense) the league gave him a 50k fine.

 

 

He wasn't asked to hand over his phone... you been talking to Morty ?

[Shane Bond]

I don't know Shane? I am beginning to think some of the Patriot fans don't know how to add?

On the flip side, they get to do whatever they want. I am planning on officially becoming a pats fan.

I can type any garbage any day and anytime. I can start any baiting, trolling threads. I can say 1+1=10 and it is accepted. Talk about living the life.

[ViriLudant]

Do Pats fans look at primary evidence? The stuff in the Wells report seems pretty conclusive to me. Did you read it?

Let's be objective. The AEI has a history of bending their findings to fit what they want their shareholders to see. Furthermore, anything Bad Morty has posted in regards to the AEI report is refuted by the Wells report. In fact, the things the AEI claim in their report suggest they didn't read the Wells report. For more details on these, please read my previous posts in this thread.

ROFL

Wells was PAID to "prove" that the Patriots cheated.

Let's disregard that the science has been disproven by multiple credible institutions.

Or the fact that Tagliabue asked for AEI to help make a decision in BountyGate.

Yep, facts again. They're troublesome for those with an anti-Pats agenda.

[Swan Ronson]

 Infamy, infamy - they've all got it in for me! 

[ViriLudant]

May I make a suggestion? Let's just all quit trying to convince the Patriot fans who think this was all a witch hunt to talk and whine to themselves. It is real apparent that facts do not matter to them. There is one thing being a fan and another thing defending a team that has been twice caught and convicted of actions deemed detrimental to the NFL. Those are the facts that no one can dispute. I have heard how the Patriot lawyers were going to shred all of this in court but yet the Patriots did not take this to court. I have heard every possible excuse that a person could make up as to why this matter happened except the truth. The deflection of a lot of Patriot fans is an insult to the intelligence of all involved. As I stated in an earlier post the facts are as follows. 1- the Patriots are now two times been found guilty of actions deemed detrimental to the NFL. 2- Kraft has been fined 1,250,000. dollars. Belichick 500,000. dollars. 3- a loss of 3 draft picks. 4- Brady suspended four games pending an appeal. But yet to the Patriot fans this was all just made up because of various reasons. Being a fan of a team does not automatically make your team innocent no matter what you choose to believe. You do the crime you pay for it without making excuses. It's not the end of the world so take your dose of medicine and move on without the non stop whine about being picked upon. At least Kraft has acted like a man about it and that is more than most Patriot fans have.

Someone else who doesn't understand facts. Awesome .

Did the witch float?

There are literally dozens of articles ripping the Wells Report apart. Scientists from various credible institutions, etc.

Versus a company that says that cigarettes don't contribute to lung cancer.

Yet all we have are Colt fans sticking their fingers in their ears and screaming "LA LA LA!"

[Cynjin]

Says the person who seems more interested in psycho-analyzing Pats fans than addressing the report that is the subject of this thread.

 

I am legitimately interested in hearing why you dismiss the findings of this report. What is it about this particular analysis that you find is less credible than the Exponent analysis that was included in the Wells report?

 

Never said I dismissed it, more spin/deflecting I suppose.  I only question the qualifications of economists doing this type of study with no reference that anyone with better credentials being involved.  As I stated earlier it would be normal protocol to reference who did the testing if it was by another party, i.e. a physicist/lab.  Also, the fact that the lead author happens to hail from Massachusetts, which could lead one to questioning his motives.  It could be all innocent omissions or it may mean that the AEI report is written by people not qualified and are biased.

[pgt_rob]

Colts:

 

Patriots:

[Cynjin]

ROFL

Wells was PAID to "prove" that the Patriots cheated.

 

 

Your right about the ROFL, because we all know that the NFL wants nothing more than to prove that the Patriots cheated and that one of the biggest NFL stars was involved.  I can see where that would make complete sense.  Goodall, et al sitting around a table just brainstorming, how can we catch those Patriots cheating and implicate Tom Brady in the process.  That would definitely be a boon to league.

[Gramz]

Facts be damned.

You can't reason with people who have their minds already made up. And that goes both ways most if the time.