JJ Watt is the MVP.

[jvan1973]

Read the list again. Several are for this season only.

You can be unimpressed by his TDs but he is not a TE, he is a Dlineman making those catches.

ok, which begs the question, why not just use a te in those situations? They seemed to force the ball to him to help bolster his mvp chances.

They didn't make the playoffs. Very seldom in the history of the nfl has a player won an mvp on a team not playing in the playoffs. Aaron Rodgers is gonna win it

[amfootball]

ok, which begs the question, why not just use a te in those situations? They seemed to force the ball to him to help bolster his mvp chances.

They didn't make the playoffs. Very seldom in the history of the nfl has a player won an mvp on a team not playing in the playoffs. Aaron Rodgers is gonna win it

I don't even know who they have for TEs. But it was his defensive performance that put him above everyone else. Not his 5 yard catches. But obviously they saw he could do it like the Pats used to do with Vrabel.

 

I get the whole playoff argument as a sort of unwritten rule of the award but if there was ever a case to make an exception I think it is this year. Houston does have a winning record and lost the final spot in the final week after winning their game. If they were a below .500 team all season I could see it but they were in the hunt from week one due to his play.

[Qwiz]

He isn't that valuable.  He plays DE, for Christ's sake.  If he was that valuable, he would've been able to put his team on his back and carry them to 11-12 wins, like Aaron Rodgers did.  But he didn't, because you can't as a friggen DE.  The defensive unit he spearheaded was average, and they won 9 games against a last place schedule.  Whoop-dee-do.

 

Those 3 one-yard TD catches were a pathetic gimmick in order to garner him votes, and should count against him, in my opinion.

Stopped reading right there. Complete hogwash.

[Qwiz]

ok, which begs the question, why not just use a te in those situations? They seemed to force the ball to him to help bolster his mvp chances.

They didn't make the playoffs. Very seldom in the history of the nfl has a player won an mvp on a team not playing in the playoffs. Aaron Rodgers is gonna win it

Soo whenever a team uses the halfback pass option, or wide receiver pass or planned quarterback keeps, they are trying to bolster that players stats? Trick plays happen all the time in the NFL. Watt made enough of a case for MVP even without his offensive TDs. 

[jvan1973]

Stopped reading right there. Complete hogwash.

his greatness doesn't translate to wins. If aaron rodgers played for the texans and watt didn't they would be in the playoffs

[jvan1973]

Soo whenever a team uses the halfback pass option, or wide receiver pass or planned quarterback keeps, they are trying to bolster that players stats? Trick plays happen all the time in the NFL. Watt made enough

of a case for MVP even without his offensive TDs.

Those are offensive players. Any te could have made the one yard catches he made.

[Qwiz]

his greatness doesn't translate to wins. If aaron rodgers played for the texans and watt didn't they would be in the playoffs

That's pure speculation. If we did have Rodgers it might translate to a playoff appearance because the AFC is so weak but how many quarterbacks of ours got hurt this year? Rodgers probably wouldn't have even made it through the season. And the guy hasn't gotten to the Super Bowl in four years....coincidentally, since the year his defense was playing lights out.

[Qwiz]

Those are offensive players. Any te could have made the one yard catches he made.

Having a defensive lineman out there running routes creates not only mismatches but puts the defense in out as to if the play will be a run, pass, play-action...and it isn't like we trotted him out there every single game to catch TDs.

[jvan1973]

That's pure speculation. If we did have Rodgers it might translate to a playoff appearance because the AFC is so weak but how many quarterbacks of ours got hurt this year? Rodgers probably wouldn't have even made it through the season. And the guy hasn't gotten to the Super Bowl in four years....coincidentally, since the year his defense was playing lights out.

What happened in the past has no bearing on the season

at hand. Great qbs effect the outcomes of games more than great DEs. It isn't even close to an argument

[Corndog]

ok, which begs the question, why not just use a te in those situations? They seemed to force the ball to him to help bolster his mvp chances.

They didn't make the playoffs. Very seldom in the history of the nfl has a player won an mvp on a team not playing in the playoffs. Aaron Rodgers is gonna win it

The Seahawks seeded higher than the Packers, Russell Wilson is the MVP. 

[Qwiz]

What happened in the past has no bearing on the season

at hand. Great qbs effect the outcomes of games more than great DEs. It isn't even close to an argument

And that's not the argument we are making for MVP right now. You're twisting things up. It is about hands down who was the best, most valuable player this year...and if you think Watt wasn't valuable this year then I'm not sure what to say. Put Brady on the Packers and how many wins do they get? Put Manning there, Philip Rivers. How many defensive ends would have the same impact on the Texans that Watt had?

[Corndog]

And that's not the argument we are making for MVP right now. You're twisting things up. It is about hands down who was the best, most valuable player this year...and if you think Watt wasn't valuable this year then I'm not sure what to say. Put Brady on the Packers and how many wins do they get? Put Manning there, Philip Rivers. How many defensive ends would have the same impact on the Texans that Watt had?

Exactly, just like put Rodgers behind our o-line and see if he only throws 5 interceptions.  Watts on any defense in the league would have an impact, because his stats are individual and Rodgers need those around him to perform.  

[Gramz]

Wow.  just Wow.   So many strong opinions here, one way or the other.

 

I will say, whether he wins any awards or not,  he is one exciting player to watch.  And there simply is no denying that, unless you have blinders on.

[Shane Bond]

May be they should have a MVP for QB and a non QB since QB is a powerful position in football.

[Corndog]

May be they should have a MVP for QB and a non QB since QB is a powerful position in football.

They could do it like baseball.  They have the CY Young award for pitchers and then the MVP.  The MVP in baseball can be a pitcher, but usually isn't unless they have an incredible season.  I think this is the direction the NFL should go.   

[JerodMayo51]

May be they should have a MVP for QB and a non QB since QB is a powerful position in football.

Yea they really should because so many performances by other positional players are overlooked because they're always giving the award to a QB

[jvan1973]

May be they should have a MVP for QB and a non QB since QB is a powerful position in football.

DPOY

[GoPats]

Mad respect for what Watt did this year, but he's got a lot of things working against him for MVP. Texans finished 9-7, doesn't go to defensive players historically, etc-etc.

 

That said I think he still has a shot at it. It's down to him and Rodgers. There was no clear-cut front-runner from September to Christmas.

 

I thought a poster earlier made an interesting point - swap Watt and Rodgers... would the Texans have gone 9-7 with Rodgers? Would the Packers have gone 12-4 with Watt but a backup QB? 

 

Another way to think of it, if the Packers finished 9-7, would Rodgers be considered, even with numbers similar to where they are now? 

 

Or how about this one... what if Watt played in the NFC South and made the playoffs on a 7-8-1 team or a 7-9 team? Would the whole "playoffs" angle matter at that point?

 

I'd love to see him get it, just because it's not supposed to be an offense-only, almost-always-a-QB award. He's had a truly amazing year and carries himself real well. I wish him luck.

[Shane Bond]

DPOY

MVP sounds better. I meant it's not treated equally as MVP.

[Gramz]

DPOY

yes, definitely this.  No-one else close.

[Fx Stryker]

They could do it like baseball. They have the CY Young award for pitchers and then the MVP. The MVP in baseball can be a pitcher, but usually isn't unless they have an incredible season. I think this is the direction the NFL should go.

Comparing a pitcher and a quarterback doesn't really fit.

The reason a pitcher rarely wins MVP is because they only play 33 games a year.

The CY was made for that reason.

I'll take Mike Trout, who plays 160 games a year, instead of Clayton Kershaw, who plays 33. This years two MVPs.

[southwest1]

Its the most valuable player award, not the best player award. If you're team doesn't make the playoffs, your value doesn't really matter

I heard Solomon Wilcotts talk about this during the Patriots vs Bills game. Soly made a compelling case that if it's an individual award & JJ Watt is a game changer singlehandedly, which JJ undoubtedly is with sacks, safeties, incomplete passes, & offensive touchdowns #99 can take over games all by himself so Playoffs don't mean a darn thing. I've gotta admit that it was a very persuasive argument. 

 

So, historically you are right jvan, but when you examine how JJ takes games over & wins games without a franchise QB in Houston, I'd be okay with Mr. Swatt getting MVP because of his critical impact on his team. Without Foster, name another player other than JJ who destroys pockets, get turnovers, & makes NFL fans pay attention to Houston? You can't find one. 

 

The question I am asking myself is this: If Lawrence Taylor was the sack machine we all know he was was in his NFL career, would he has still won MVP in 1986 if the NY Giants sucked, didn't win the SB that year, & was the only game changer on that squad? If the answer is yes, then JJ Watt should be a frontrunner candidate right now & besides QBs get all the love anyway. Spread the wealth a little bit. 

[southwest1]

DPOY

 

 

yes, definitely this.  No-one else close.

You know, that brings up an interesting debate. Does DPOY become meaningless to the MVP Award simply because most defensive players never touch the ball & are seldom involved in scoring TD drives? My point is this: People remember MVP winners, but they rarely recall DPOY winners. Is it fair to bypass a defensive stud like JJ Watt simply because he's a pass rusher? No, the fact that #99 keeps his team in games means more because of the inconsistent play at the QB position in Houston. Why should JJ be overlooked simply because his city doesn't have a franchise field general? Shouldn't that elevate JJ's name vs lower it in the MVP race? What matters more winning with a variety of weapons or winning despite up & down productivity at the QB position? 

 

I respect both Jvan & Gramz & you 2 are not wrong, but your responses made me think: Why are MVP voters punishing Watt simply because his team has no winning record or established QB? Given the limitations on that squad, it should transcend JJ's ranking in the MVP race not diminish or destroy it. 

 

Besides, I've gotta stand up for my UW-Madison Badger stud anyway out of university obligation. LOL! 

[Gramz]

 

 

I respect both Jvan & Gramz & you 2 are not wrong, but your responses made me think: Why are MVP voters punishing Watt simply because his team has no winning record or established QB? Given the limitations on that squad, it should transcend JJ's ranking in the MVP race not diminish or destroy it. 

 

Besides, I've gotta stand up for my UW-Madison Badger stud anyway out of university obligation. LOL! 

SW1 ~   I was agreeing with Jvan that JJ definitely deserves DPOY.    I also stated earlier in this thread  (post #61)  that I could agree with him being MVP.

 

No secret  I have great admiration for JJ the player, and the person.

[southwest1]

SW1 ~   I was agreeing with Jvan that JJ definitely deserves DPOY.    I also stated earlier in this thread  (post #61)  that I could agree with him being MVP.

 

No secret  I have great admiration for JJ the player, and the person.

Cool. My apologies to you. I have not read every reply in this thread yet. I wasn't attempting to scold anybody. My bad. We're fine. Thank you for your well rounded fairness as always. 

[oldunclemark]

What Aaron Rodgers did Sunday was almost the definition of MVP

[Happy2BeHere]

I don't understand why MVP translates into "must be a playoff team". That's ludicrous IMO.

 

I'm totally in the boat that WATT is MVP...is there ANY OTHER player in the ENTIRE league that you can argue plays with as much tenacity and energy and truly gives every physical ounce of energy week in and week out on the field....

 

....  and not only ON the field but OFF the field also. Watt is a hero to Texans...and he's a hero to MANY people off the field. NO QUESTION about it.

 

MVP to me goes farther than just a teams record...without WATT that team is easily where Tenn and Jags are. MVP to me goes to what players do to contribute to the ethics of the NFL as well...and WATT is a great example all around.

 

To me for MANY reasons he's clearly the MVP. Playoffs or NOT!

[NewColtsFan]

No question. Three more sacks, a forced fumble and a safety today. I'll call shenanigans if he doesn't win.

 

This is from a story on ESPN.com on Monday 12/29....   I'm cutting and pasting....   Watts' season ending statistics are simply unbelievable....

 

 

Watt collected three more sacks, including one for a safety, to give him 20.5 sacks for the Houston Texans this season. He finished the season with two defensive touchdowns, three offensive touchdowns, four forced fumbles, five fumble recoveries, one interception, nine batted passes and a league-high 47 tackles at or behind the line of scrimmage.

 

It was enough to get the Texans to 9-7 without a viable quarterback, but they missed the playoffs when Baltimore defeated Cleveland. And when Rodgers returned from a calf injury to lead the Packers past Detroit for the NFC North crown, he had delivered the type of signature performance that could resonate with MVP voters (I am not among them).

[LordHelpOurColts]

Some people are so scared that a non-QB could possibly win this award that they're going out of their mind

[Yehoodi]

it would not bother me if they gave the MVP to Watt . . . it would be a nice ice breaker to give it to a defensive player and to a player that is not on a playoff team.  True, there has only been one, OJ Simpson, that has received the MVP trophy and was not on a playoff team. 

 

I am getting a tad tired of the QB award and it should not simply be given too the "best" or "most valuable" QB in the league.  And if even if they going to give it to a QB, I still go with Tom Brady.   I can not frankly see giving the award to a QB who was on a team that played 9 games against losing team, and of the 6 teams they played with winning records (if you qualified Philly as having a losing record with Sanchez under center), the Packers have a losing record against winning teams . . . it kind of sounds to me that if a player can not do what is necessary to beat his peers not sure how valuable he is.

 

Yes Houston only went 9-7 but they had a revolving door at QB, so not bad to come out with a 9-7 record. 

 

I know Rodgers had his Paul Pierce moment in week 17, but still I would not give it to him . . . if you want to give to a QB, do not give it to one that can not even beat his peers . . .

[BloodyChamp]

I didn't read this whole thread but anyway Watt should get it but he won't. Rodgers will probably get it while everybody ignores how the reason the Packers won yesterday was because the Lions still can't do things like kickoff in bounds, make handoffs, or hit the broad side of a WR. O and the refs...rigged? That was a fumble and they overturned it. Yes I understand the rule where the ball carrier is down once he's touched but the defender clearly knocked the ball from Lacy's arm first. And that 2 Pt conversion was good.

Anyway...my 1 glimmer of hope for Watt is that people seemed to enjoy somebody besides a quarterback winning it last year and the fact that people have been behind Watt all year long.

[Shane Bond]

it would not bother me if they gave the MVP to Watt . . . it would be a nice ice breaker to give it to a defensive player and to a player that is not on a playoff team. True, there has only been one, OJ Simpson, that has received the MVP trophy and was not on a playoff team.

I am getting a tad tired of the QB award and it should not simply be given too the "best" or "most valuable" QB in the league. And if even if they going to give it to a QB, I still go with Tom Brady. I can not frankly see giving the award to a QB who was on a team that played 9 games against losing team, and of the 6 teams they played with winning records (if you qualified Philly as having a losing record with Sanchez under center), the Packers have a losing record against winning teams . . . it kind of sounds to me that if a player can not do what is necessary to beat his peers not sure how valuable he is.

Yes Houston only went 9-7 but they had a revolving door at QB, so not bad to come out with a 9-7 record.

I know Rodgers had his Paul Pierce moment in week 17, but still I would not give it to him . . . if you want to give to a QB, do not give it to one that can not even beat his peers . . .

Rodgers is the best QB in the NFL today. Not even close.

Tom Brady had bad games this year too But a lot of games Pats won defense and special teams played a huge part. And in offense look at the games without Gronk early. How do you define Miami and Kansas City performance?. MVP really?.

Let's not make it sound like it's an one man army out there.

Award belongs to Watt.

[BloodyChamp]

It's shaping up typically for the Packers...fraud win in week 17, SB favorites now and bam 1 n done. Meanwhile the week 17 win will earn Rodger's MVP while everybody ignores how this usually goes.

[Yehoodi]

Rodgers is the best QB in the NFL today. Not even close.

Tom Brady had bad games this year too But a lot of games Pats won defense and special teams played a huge part. And in offense look at the games without Gronk early. How do you define Miami and Kansas City performance?. MVP really?.

Let's not make it sound like it's an one man army out there.

Award belongs to Watt.

 

I would love to see Watt get the award . . . but lets not crown Rodgers anything special . . . he has a LOSING record against winning teams and only breaks even if you take in consideration the win against Phila with Sanchez under center . . . the pats offense beat many division winners by 21 points or more each time in a prime time game . . . the defense does not score for the offense . . . the offense ponied up 40 plus points in those games . .  . whether you want to admit it or not . . .

 

meanwhile has GB had any injuries?  I am not sure if the offensive line had any injuries did it? . . .

 

But I do agree that it is time to take the award away from the QB when there is a solid defender . . .

[Gavin]

I would love to see Watt get the award . . . but lets not crown Rodgers anything special . . . he has a LOSING record against winning teams and only breaks even if you take in consideration the win against Phila with Sanchez under center . . . the pats offense beat many division winners by 21 points or more each time in a prime time game . . . the defense does not score for the offense . . . the offense ponied up 40 plus points in those games . .  . whether you want to admit it or not . . .

 

meanwhile has GB had any injuries?  I am not sure if the offensive line had any injuries did it? . . .

 

But I do agree that it is time to take the award away from the QB when there is a solid defender . . .

No....His team has a losing record against winning teams.....He however has 9 td's and 1 pick vs playoff teams....he also has 12 td's and only 1 pick vs winning teams

[Shane Bond]

I would love to see Watt get the award . . . but lets not crown Rodgers anything special . . . he has a LOSING record against winning teams and only breaks even if you take in consideration the win against Phila with Sanchez under center . . . the pats offense beat many division winners by 21 points or more each time in a prime time game . . . the defense does not score for the offense . . . the offense ponied up 40 plus points in those games . . . whether you want to admit it or not . . .

meanwhile has GB had any injuries? I am not sure if the offensive line had any injuries did it? . . .

But I do agree that it is time to take the award away from the QB when there is a solid defender . . .

Huh defense and special teams don't need to score all the time. They give you great field position. You know that and they have.

You are going down to injuries now?. I can nit pick a lot too.

Win or loss is a team record. MVP is a player award. Compare Rodgers passer rating and TD/ INT?.

As I said, it belongs to Watt. If they decide to give it to a QB, it's Rodgers this year.

[jvan1973]

Could the packers, colts , pats ,broncos have made the playoffs with their backup qbs?

Could the Texans miss the playoffs without Watt?

That's how value is determined

[amfootball]

It's shaping up typically for the Packers...fraud win in week 17, SB favorites now and bam 1 n done. Meanwhile the week 17 win will earn Rodger's MVP while everybody ignores how this usually goes.

I agree. I think Dallas takes them out.

[Yehoodi]

No....His team has a losing record against winning teams.....He however has 9 td's and 1 pick vs playoff teams....he also has 12 td's and only 1 pick vs winning teams

 

First off, we are not discussing SB wins and the tired argument of "team win championships" nonsense.   Yes teammates do help out in wins by a team but a player in a key position can affect the results one way or the other.  It is not an absolute science on one hand but then is not something that can be 100% credited to the entire team either.  It is a blend of the two.  What I always find interesting is when media types claim playoff wins are a team accomplishment and then 5 minutes later will credit team wins towards support of MVP, its comical.   Bottom line a playoff win and a regular season win is the exact same, the key player and his teammates contribute equally in each instance.   I view the contribution by the two in the same light when viewing all of the games.

   

We must understand that are dealing with the MVP award and how is regrettably is handed out by AP voters who will look at team wins, through the concept that only players on playoff teams are eligible.  This principle is based on the theory that the player helped his team gain those wins; and as such, his contribution to those wins is critical to his team, his is given credit toward those wins and points towards the MVP award.  However, when one uses this theory one needs to reviews the wins to see how they compare with wins by other candidates.  Did one guy beat the Jets and Jaguars of world 10 times or what is schedule such that he had to beat the Broncos and Colts of the world.  That was my point.  If a player gains wins against garbage teams but then can beat the good teams do not look, imo, as good as a player who not only beat the garbage teams but performed better against tougher teams.  And again as we are discussing the MVP award we much look at the manner in which it is awarded and realize that team wins are attributed to the player, fair or not. 

 

Second, not sure where you got your facts from regarding winning teams and playoff teams.  As a side note, when I, and others, mention "playoff teams" we are referring to a group of teams that are a subset of the "winning teams" and 90% of the time the playoff teams are the stronger subset of the winning teams.  This year we have a losing team (CAR) in the subset of playoff teams and perhaps we should account for that issue.

 

Also, you have you numbers wrong for winning teams for Rodgers, his numbers are 9 TDs and 3 INTs (DET(2), NE, BUF, PHILA, SEA) whereas Brady's numbers are 19 TDs and 7 INTs (BUF(2), CINN, INDY, DEN, SD, KC, GB, DET).

 

Bottom line, I would love to see the AP change its spots and give the award to a player who teams has not gain many wins, but if the AP is going to follow custom, I am not sold on Rodgers as some are sold on him

[Yehoodi]

Huh defense and special teams don't need to score all the time. They give you great field position. You know that and they have.

You are going down to injuries now?. I can nit pick a lot too.

Win or loss is a team record. MVP is a player award. Compare Rodgers passer rating and TD/ INT?.

As I said, it belongs to Watt. If they decide to give it to a QB, it's Rodgers this year.

 

Yes special teams and Defense certainly help out in a given situation, no argument there.  But when one looks at the wins they realized that Rodgers and the Packers eked out wins against winning teams meanwhile the pats beat them by 21 or more points with the offense ponying up over 40 points each time.  Yes the other two phases of the game can help have help the pats, but not to the extent that it can account for those differences.

 

I only presented injuries as many were bringing in teammates to the discussion, like Gronk, and how teammates can help.  I do agree that they can help and Gronk helps, so I agree . . . however I also agree that with teammates support comes the principle of the teammates being on the field and contributing to the continuity of the team and play . . . so just has Gronk has help, the injury and revolving oline early in the season hurt the pats, something that GB did not have to deal with, that is point, one must be consistent with ones analysis and view all things in context.  the addition of players, subtraction of players, and the continuity of the same.  It all the same, and we need to look at the entire picture.  Brady has had flux at the oline and Rodgers has not.