Offensive line experiment

[Coffeedrinker]

Shipley is quite a bit better than Harrison and Shipley is just an above average center.  it was good to see Homes in there but he whiffed badly on a few pass plays but then he made some really good blocks on others.  Holmes did not play better than a healthy Thornton though and the people that are saying that are fooling themselves (much like they did when Harrison got the start over Shipley the first time).  

 

I hope Reitz injury is not serious but the way he was acting after I will not be surprised if it is season ending, but as long as Thornton is injured I would not mind seeing Shipley and Holmes in there and then when Thornton comes back maybe move Holmes to center, I was impressed with how well he (Holmes) moved and how well he controlled his guy once he was locked up with him.

[ColtsFan1976]

Hopefully we will get a better sense Sunday versus the Texans how the OL is.  Luck did look confused when he actually had a pocket to stand in and plenty of time to throw.  I just hope when the season is done the Colts use one draft pick for the secondary, one for linebacker, one for running back, one for wide receiver, and the rest for OL help.  The Colts do not need much DL help.  Without Mathis, the defense is 5th in the league in sacks. 

[Dark_Indy]

I'm done the Shipley love is sickening I'd rather let Harrison continue his progress then put in Shipley for his marginally better upgrade Harrison is a rookie no where near his celing Shipley reached his a long time ago also Harrison is 10 times stronger and bigger then Shipley will ever dream of being

 

 

Really? Ok, how about these stats

 

In the first four weeks of the season, when Shipley was at C, Luck was sacked a TOTAL of five times, including two games (Eagles and Jaguars) where Luck was not sacked at all. With Shipley in the Line- 1.25 sacks per game.

In week 5 against Baltimore Shipley was benched and Harrison started at C. Luck was sacked FOUR times in that one game.

Week 6 against Houston- Three Sacks

Week 7 Pitt- Two Sacks

Week 8 NYG- One Sack Totaling Harrison's first four games, Luck gets sacked 2.5 times per game with Harrison in the lineup.

 

Taking the first four games each guy played in the starting lineup, Shipley (1.25) and Harrison (2.5), Luck gets sacked twice as often when Harrison is in the lineup versus Shipley.

 

To be fair to Harrison's cause- the Offensive line did not give up a single sack to the Patriots, but gave up five to the Jaguars (Shipley's line gave up zero to that team) and one to the redskins, which does bring Harrison's offensive line's sack per game stat to 2.29 sacks per game. Still roughly 1.8(ish) times the sacks that a line led by Shipley gives up.

 

I am not sure how the 3 sacks in todays game are divided between a lineup with Shipley or Harrison, so I cannot attribute those to either player accurately. 

 

Let's look at Luck's fumbles per game when Shipley and Harrison are in the starting lineup.

 

Shipley

Week 1- 0

Week 2- 0

Week 3- 0

Week 4- 0

 

Harrison

Week 5- 1 (0 lost)

Week 6- 1 (1 lost)

Week 7- 1 (1 lost)

Week 8- 1 (0 lost)

 

Now, we'll look at the numbers through each of their first four games- With Shipley in the offensive line, Luck fumbled zero times. With Harrison in the offensive line, Luck fumbled four times, once per game- losing half of them.

 

Harrison's last four weeks weeks

Week 9- 2 (0 lost)

Week 10- 0

Week 11- 4 (2 lost) (Shipley's line gave up zero against the jags)

Week 12 2 (1 lost)

 

Now, I understand that both sacks and fumbles by the quarterback can't be attributed JUST to the Center, but to see a jump in sacks by almost double, and going from zero fumbles to having 12 (5 lost) when you switch out the center means that something is up.

 

What about Running yards per game and average YPC for the respective centers in the lineup?

Shipley

Week 1- 54 total rushing yards, and a 3.9 YPC 

Week 2- 169 yards and a 4.4 ypc 

Week 3- 144 yards and a 5.0 YPC

Week 4- 105 yards and a 2.6 YPC

Average 118 yards per game and a 3.974 YPC

 

Harrison

Week 5- 127 Yards and a 4.2 YPC

Week 6- 171 Yards and a 5.0 YPC

Week 7- 63 yards and a 6.3 YPC 

Week 8- 98 yards and a 4.1 YPC

Week 9- 19 yards and a 1.2 YPC (Ouch)

Average 95.6 Yards per game and a 4.16 YPC

 

These above are only the games where Bradshaw and Trent were both in the game, but it does also include all of the misc rushing yards (Luck, end arounds etc.) 

 

So in regards to the rushing game, it's really a push between Harrison's O-Line (~6.5 inches more per rush) and Shipley's O-Line (~20 more yards per game rushing)

 

So you don't change much in the rushing game between Harrison or Shipley, but the stats show that Luck gets sacked less and fumbles less when Shipley is in the lineup versus Harrison.

 

What are you angry about again?

[IndyD4U]

I want to see Khaled get some snaps and with Joe's injury we probably will. He looked strong upon first examination, but need to take a closer look. I think the line played better collectively

[ColtsBlueFL]

I thought Holmes played well at RG, and how awesome is it Pagano finally realized Harrison is terrible and benched him???

 

Harrison suffered a burner (stinger) and was removed from the game because of it.  He wasn't benched for performance, but medical reasons.

[Coffeedrinker]

Somewhat in Harrison's defense a burner is a legitimate injury.  I just hope this is the lingering kind that keeps him out of the lineup for the rest of the year.  There has been next to no progression in his game during the course of his starts, let him regroup and study and see what he can do next year.

[Gavin]

Upon first glance I thought Mewhort really struggled today as well, But I have not gone back and watched the game yet

[GwinnettColt]

Holmes looked good. Almost looked like he helped Shipley make some calls at the line. I want Holmes to start somewhere on the interior of the offensive line

It was good to see Holmes out there.  Played well at guard and probably pretty good at Center.  

[Cynjin]

Really? Ok, how about these stats

 

In the first four weeks of the season, when Shipley was at C, Luck was sacked a TOTAL of five times, including two games (Eagles and Jaguars) where Luck was not sacked at all. With Shipley in the Line- 1.25 sacks per game.

In week 5 against Baltimore Shipley was benched and Harrison started at C. Luck was sacked FOUR times in that one game.

Week 6 against Houston- Three Sacks

Week 7 Pitt- Two Sacks

Week 8 NYG- One Sack Totaling Harrison's first four games, Luck gets sacked 2.5 times per game with Harrison in the lineup.

 

Taking the first four games each guy played in the starting lineup, Shipley (1.25) and Harrison (2.5), Luck gets sacked twice as often when Harrison is in the lineup versus Shipley.

 

To be fair to Harrison's cause- the Offensive line did not give up a single sack to the Patriots, but gave up five to the Jaguars (Shipley's line gave up zero to that team) and one to the redskins, which does bring Harrison's offensive line's sack per game stat to 2.29 sacks per game. Still roughly 1.8(ish) times the sacks that a line led by Shipley gives up.

 

I am not sure how the 3 sacks in todays game are divided between a lineup with Shipley or Harrison, so I cannot attribute those to either player accurately. 

 

Let's look at Luck's fumbles per game when Shipley and Harrison are in the starting lineup.

 

Shipley

Week 1- 0

Week 2- 0

Week 3- 0

Week 4- 0

 

Harrison

Week 5- 1 (0 lost)

Week 6- 1 (1 lost)

Week 7- 1 (1 lost)

Week 8- 1 (0 lost)

 

Now, we'll look at the numbers through each of their first four games- With Shipley in the offensive line, Luck fumbled zero times. With Harrison in the offensive line, Luck fumbled four times, once per game- losing half of them.

 

Harrison's last four weeks weeks

Week 9- 2 (0 lost)

Week 10- 0

Week 11- 4 (2 lost) (Shipley's line gave up zero against the jags)

Week 12 2 (1 lost)

 

Now, I understand that both sacks and fumbles by the quarterback can't be attributed JUST to the Center, but to see a jump in sacks by almost double, and going from zero fumbles to having 12 (5 lost) when you switch out the center means that something is up.

 

What about Running yards per game and average YPC for the respective centers in the lineup?

Shipley

Week 1- 54 total rushing yards, and a 3.9 YPC 

Week 2- 169 yards and a 4.4 ypc 

Week 3- 144 yards and a 5.0 YPC

Week 4- 105 yards and a 2.6 YPC

Average 118 yards per game and a 3.974 YPC

 

Harrison

Week 5- 127 Yards and a 4.2 YPC

Week 6- 171 Yards and a 5.0 YPC

Week 7- 63 yards and a 6.3 YPC 

Week 8- 98 yards and a 4.1 YPC

Week 9- 19 yards and a 1.2 YPC (Ouch)

Average 95.6 Yards per game and a 4.16 YPC

 

These above are only the games where Bradshaw and Trent were both in the game, but it does also include all of the misc rushing yards (Luck, end arounds etc.) 

 

So in regards to the rushing game, it's really a push between Harrison's O-Line (~6.5 inches more per rush) and Shipley's O-Line (~20 more yards per game rushing)

 

So you don't change much in the rushing game between Harrison or Shipley, but the stats show that Luck gets sacked less and fumbles less when Shipley is in the lineup versus Harrison.

 

What are you angry about again?

 

Wow and that's all because of Shipley.  The man needs a raise.

[ColtsBlueFL]

Harrison was injured, He got whiplash from watching all the D players running right by him!

 

Was wondering how he got a stinger... Wonder how Gosder's whiplash session went...

[Colts_Fan12]

I don't think anybody here loves Shipley, but he is clearly our best option at center.

Love how everyone states he is "clearly" better when in reality it isn't by much at all the run still is terrible and when opposing Ds blow though Shipley like Kruger did today luck will still be pressured and sacked

[ColtStronger]

Would love to see us open some run lanes for him! So sick of all the "Trent sucks" talk

He had quite a few decent runs today.  It's a shame we didn't have full control of the game to be able to keep giving him the ball.  It's amazing I haven't seen a thread from todays game bashing him yet, because he only got x amount of yards.  He did miss quite a few blocks in the backfield today, which is very unlike him.  I find it ironic Boom got stopped in the backfield more than Trent today and nobody is bashing him.  Herron did have quite a few HUGE plays though.

[ColtStronger]

I don't care who is playing as long as we can protect Luck, give him time in the pocket, and actually run the football!  I am definitely ready to see what Holmes is capable of.  I am just tired of a lackluster run game, and Luck forcing things because he is being sacked.

[a06cc]

Holmes at Center and when Hugh is healthy he'll be our guard.

[Colts_Fan12]

He had quite a few decent runs today. It's a shame we didn't have full control of the game to be able to keep giving him the ball. It's amazing I haven't seen a thread from todays game bashing him yet, because he only got x amount of yards. He did miss quite a few blocks in the backfield today, which is very unlike him. I find it ironic Boom got stopped in the backfield more than Trent today and nobody is bashing him. Herron did have quite a few HUGE plays though.

Anyone can get stopped in the backfield as long as its not Trent no one ever bashed any other back just Trent

[ColtStronger]

Shipley is quite a bit better than Harrison and Shipley is just an above average center.  it was good to see Homes in there but he whiffed badly on a few pass plays but then he made some really good blocks on others.  Holmes did not play better than a healthy Thornton though and the people that are saying that are fooling themselves (much like they did when Harrison got the start over Shipley the first time).  

 

I hope Reitz injury is not serious but the way he was acting after I will not be surprised if it is season ending, but as long as Thornton is injured I would not mind seeing Shipley and Holmes in there and then when Thornton comes back maybe move Holmes to center, I was impressed with how well he (Holmes) moved and how well he controlled his guy once he was locked up with him.

I am in favor to start Shipley, and always have.  I wanted to see what Harrison could do once they put him in, and was impressed the first game or two.  Although, I was over the experiment rather quickly.  I think most of the problem is because the inexperience of the interior, which Shipley makes a world of difference when it comes to that.  I think Harrison will be a better option in the future, but he just isn't there yet.  I also like that Holmes has got a shot finally and would like to see more.  I'm not saying he will be better but who knows until we see for ourselves.  One thing is for sure we need to have this problem figured out within the next 3 weeks, before playoffs start because I think I speak for most fans when I say the inconsistency needs to stop!

[ColtStronger]

Anyone can get stopped in the backfield as long as its not Trent no one ever bashed any other back just Trent

Yeah, it's kind of sad.  Even when he does good things it goes unnoticed.  Some people are very unappreciative.  Since Boom had that 49 yard TD, he is automatically better, and has no fault if he does anything wrong.  Including fumbling the ball 4x in 2 games.  Trent messes something up, then it's a constant reminder of how bad of a trade it was or he is a bust.   It sure is a "What have you done for me lately type of league"

[Colts_Fan12]

Yeah, it's kind of sad. Even when he does good things it goes unnoticed. Some people are very unappreciative. Since Boom had that 49 yard TD, he is automatically better, and has no fault if he does anything wrong. Including fumbling the ball 4x in 2 games. Trent messes something up, then it's a constant reminder of how bad of a trade it was or he is a bust. It sure is a "What have you done for me lately type of league"

oh for sure!

[Superman]

Harrison suffered a burner (stinger) and was removed from the game because of it.  He wasn't benched for performance, but medical reasons.

 

The rare fact-based statement, amidst a sea of sensationalism... 

[TKnight24]

I want to see Khaled get some snaps and with Joe's injury we probably will. He looked strong upon first examination, but need to take a closer look. I think the line played better collectively

Harrison wasn't injured. What is a "Burner"? I've heard of a stinger, but not a burner

His butt was burning on that bench like it should've been since Day 1

[RomanianColtsFan]

I feel like the decision makers for the Colts have unjustly sidelined Holmes. If they really wanted to replace Shipley they should have replaced him with Holmes, not with Harisson. A center should also be intelligent not just strong and Holmes is intelligent. It was like another QB out there on the line after he entered the game.

And I don't know what Grigson is talking about, he's got enough power as well, he doesn't need to hit the gym like Grigson suggested a while ago.

Anyway, I think they should keep the O line that finished the game today for the next game. Despite their ineptitude in choosing the right combination the circumstances may have helped them to finally get it right.

[Superman]

I feel like the decision makers for the Colts have unjustly sidelined Holmes. If they really wanted to replace Shipley they should have replaced him with Holmes, not with Harisson. A center should also be intelligent not just strong and Holmes is intelligent. It was like another QB out there on the line after he entered the game.

And I don't know what Grigson is talking about, he's got enough power as well, he doesn't need to hit the gym like Grigson suggested a while ago.

Anyway, I think they should keep the O line that finished the game today for the next game. Despite their ineptitude in choosing the right combination the circumstances may have helped them to finally get it right.

 

That's not what Grigson said. He said Holmes needs to stay out of the training room.

[Exodus]

Jeff Saturday was neither big enough or strong enough to play center... said EVERYONE! Look what happened to him, a potential HOF career

 

 

Being big does NOT mean they're the best option at center. Sometimes, you just need to give the little man a shot

[RomanianColtsFan]

That's not what Grigson said. He said Holmes needs to stay out of the training room.

That's not what I heard. Sorry. He said on the radio that Holmes needs to keep working to get stronger.

[Superman]

That's not what I heard. Sorry. He said on the radio that Holmes needs to keep working to get stronger.

 

I don't remember him saying that, but even if he did, that's not a knock on his game. 

 

And I honestly think you heard him say they want him to stay out of the training room, referring to the injuries he's had to work through since before he was even drafted. One interpretation could be that he needs to learn to play through a little pain and discomfort and still do his job, because that's what it means to be an NFL player. 

 

No matter. I don't think Grigson was knocking Holmes for not being strong enough.

[Dr. Guildo]

Hopefully we will get a better sense Sunday versus the Texans how the OL is.  Luck did look confused when he actually had a pocket to stand in and plenty of time to throw.  I just hope when the season is done the Colts use one draft pick for the secondary, one for linebacker, one for running back, one for wide receiver, and the rest for OL help.  The Colts do not need much DL help.  Without Mathis, the defense is 5th in the league in sacks. 

Luck was clearly shocked he had time to throw. 

 

Shipley is quite a bit better than Harrison and Shipley is just an above average center.  it was good to see Homes in there but he whiffed badly on a few pass plays but then he made some really good blocks on others.  Holmes did not play better than a healthy Thornton though and the people that are saying that are fooling themselves (much like they did when Harrison got the start over Shipley the first time).  

 

I hope Reitz injury is not serious but the way he was acting after I will not be surprised if it is season ending, but as long as Thornton is injured I would not mind seeing Shipley and Holmes in there and then when Thornton comes back maybe move Holmes to center, I was impressed with how well he (Holmes) moved and how well he controlled his guy once he was locked up with him.

Harrison just got beat, and after the fumble in the endzone I was hoping they would pull the young man... but said he was hurt. The o-line played way better after that. Not a knock of Harrison because the kid is young, and to do what he has been asked to do this year is amazing.

[RomanianColtsFan]

I don't remember him saying that, but even if he did, that's not a knock on his game.

And I honestly think you heard him say they want him to stay out of the training room, referring to the injuries he's had to work through since before he was even drafted. One interpretation could be that he needs to learn to play through a little pain and discomfort and still do his job, because that's what it means to be an NFL player.

No matter. I don't think Grigson was knocking Holmes for not being strong enough.

You are correct in what you are saying but that was in a different interview from the one I heard and it's a different from what I meant.

[Gavin]

Luck was clearly shocked he had time to throw. 

 

Harrison just got beat, and after the fumble in the endzone I was hoping they would pull the young man... but said he was hurt. The o-line played way better after that. Not a knock of Harrison because the kid is young, and to do what he has been asked to do this year is amazing.

That sack was just a smuch on Andrew as it was Harrison, He had Fleener running open towards the sideline and even looked at him and passed him up

[Superman]

You are correct in what you are saying but that was in a different interview from the one I heard and it's a different from what I meant.

 

You have a link?

[Dr. Guildo]

That sack was just a smuch on Andrew as it was Harrison, He had Fleener running open towards the sideline and even looked at him and passed him up

When you have guys running at you unblocked hitting a receiver is easier said than done, man. That was a big miss by Harrison.

[Superman]

That sack was just a smuch on Andrew as it was Harrison, He had Fleener running open towards the sideline and even looked at him and passed him up

 

It was probably 70/30. It's third and long, Luck passed up Fleener because he was nowhere near the third down, and the LB was over the top to make the tackle. No one else was open. I'd obviously rather see Luck dump it off than take the sack and fumble it, but the pressure came pretty quickly because Harrison got smoked. 

 

Everything that happened after the pressure was on Luck. You can't fumble the ball like that, and he's done it way too much recently.

[3nk1du]

Almost everybody is saying that all the problems are because of Harrison but he is just an average center actually AQ is also average but the problems aren't just the center we don't get any help from the RB the first drive we kind of try to give the ball to T.R. but that didn't work so next drive we threw the ball 3 times again 3 and out.

 

We don't really have a balance because either we try too much to run or pass and we fall behind and then is Andrew Luck show and our line isn't average i think is below average but the right side is awful also the C seems lost at times i think is more a assignment problem(coach problem) and after Bradshaw got injured we lost the 6th man protection bc T.R. isn't as good as Bradshaw and Herron can't block, i do think we need to begin to review all the team not just the OL.

 

We are putting Wayne and Nicks when they aren't getting open or dropping passes also T.Y. is gonna be double cover all the time, so it's time to put Moncrief let him get the ball he has proved himself at NFL level, i think Josh Cribs brought some sparkle to the KR,PR but after a couple of games he has been worse that Whalen( he isn't getting the fair catches and he is losing those yards) and then he seems slower this week i think it's because an injury but it's natural at his age, i'd agree to bring any WR from the P.S. because Nicks has no value to this team(no ST nor WR) and Wayne dealing with injuries it's reckless give him too many snaps, i think the team staff needs to realize that the name isn't a reason to start.

[Gavin]

It was probably 70/30. It's third and long, Luck passed up Fleener because he was nowhere near the third down, and the LB was over the top to make the tackle. No one else was open. I'd obviously rather see Luck dump it off than take the sack and fumble it, but the pressure came pretty quickly because Harrison got smoked. 

 

Everything that happened after the pressure was on Luck. You can't fumble the ball like that, and he's done it way too much recently.

Agreed, I just think take what the defense gives ya, But Harrison got whipped from the start

[GoColts8818]

Harrison suffered a burner (stinger) and was removed from the game because of it. He wasn't benched for performance, but medical reasons.

sssh you are letting facts get in the way of what people want to be true.

While I have no issue with shipley starting over Harrison I don't think hes as much better as fans want him to be and I dont think either is the long term answer at Center.

[GoColts8818]

It was probably 70/30. It's third and long, Luck passed up Fleener because he was nowhere near the third down, and the LB was over the top to make the tackle. No one else was open. I'd obviously rather see Luck dump it off than take the sack and fumble it, but the pressure came pretty quickly because Harrison got smoked. 

 

Everything that happened after the pressure was on Luck. You can't fumble the ball like that, and he's done it way too much recently.

luck has got to learn to take a sack. I know no one likes them but he can't keep trying to flip it out at the last second. He's gotten called for grounding twice this year doing it (once resulting in a safety) been picked once doing it and fumbling it a handful of other times including today. Sometimes it's better to just admit your beat on a play tuck the ball away to protect it and just take the sack. While Luck is making the mistakes I sure as heck hope the coaches start pounding this into his head and if they aren't (I have no way of knowing if they are) I put some on them.

[mintor]

It was good to see Holmes out there.  Played well at guard and probably pretty good at Center.  

 

 

Holmes played well at RG also in college 

[ColtsBlueFL]

Harrison wasn't injured. What is a "Burner"? I've heard of a stinger, but not a burner

His butt was burning on that bench like it should've been since Day 1

 

FYI - http://orthoinfo.aaos.org/topic.cfm?topic=A00027

 

Burners and Stingers.  Same thing.

[SteelCityColt]

FYI - http://orthoinfo.aaos.org/topic.cfm?topic=A00027

 

Burners and Stingers.  Same thing.

 

I think that was a deliberate misunderstanding to set up the pun... how we laughed. 

[RomanianColtsFan]

You have a link?

Sorry, no. It was one of the interviews with Lamey

on colts.com a few weeks after Harrison was promoted.

[NagelHausForge]

Would love to see us open some run lanes for him! So sick of all the "Trent sucks" talk

 

Ok, so let me get this right.... you are done with all the praise for Shipley but you are sick of the "Trent Sucks" talk.... this statement just totally invalidated anything you have ever posted.  Please tell me you forgot to use your "sarcasm" font on this...