Offensive line experiment

[Gavin]

I seriously doubt there are more than a handful of fans here that know how to grade OL performance,  if that many.

 

I think I have a good eye for judging some level of success, but I don't pretend to know how to grade.  

 

I know when I'm seeing zone blocking or man blocking.   But without knowing the requirements of the play,  I don't think I know how to grade a player's performance.

 

I'd guess roughly 98-99 percent of the fans here don't know how to grade an OL performance.   And my figure may be too low.

Really all it takes is a little research in regards to reading articles from players that have played the game before or past coaches. Really who assignment is whos is self explanatory within the play more often then it isn't...That's not to say that's a perfect way to look at it because one wont always be right but from reading and talking the few that have coached before (CoffeeDrinker as an example)......And there are coaches that wont even be perfect on whos supposed to block who as quoted in that article.....And one O Line coach (Mike Devlin) said "sometimes you just have to block the freakin guy"

[NewColtsFan]

Really all it takes is a little research in regards to reading articles from players that have played the game before or past coaches. Really who assignment is whos is self explanatory within the play more often then it isn't...That's not to say that's a perfect way to look at it because one wont always be right but from reading and talking the few that have coached before (CoffeeDrinker as an example)......And there are coaches that wont even be perfect on whos supposed to block who as quoted in that article.....And one O Line coach (Mike Devlin) said "sometimes you just have to block the freakin guy"

 

Let me see if I can't take another approach on this.    If you put 10 NFL OL coaches in 10 different rooms all watching the exact same tape and asked them to grade the OL performances I'm quite confident you'd end up with 10 different grades.

 

Everybody sees the same thing differently. 

 

Grading is not a black and white thing.   There are many shades of gray.   And it's in the gray area where grades are different between coaches.

 

If grading is that subjective among coaches,  I'm quite confident when I say that 99% of fans here don't know how to properly grade OL performance.    And remember, I'm not knocking anyone, because I'm including myself in that group.

[Gavin]

Let me see if I can't take another approach on this.    If you put 10 NFL OL coaches in 10 different rooms all watching the exact same tape and asked them to grade the OL performances I'm quite confident you'd end up with 10 different grades.

 

Everybody sees the same thing differently. 

 

Grading is not a black and white thing.   There are many shades of gray.   And it's in the gray area where grades are different between coaches.

 

If grading is that subjective among coaches,  I'm quite confident when I say that 99% of fans here don't know how to properly grade OL performance.    And remember, I'm not knocking anyone, because I'm including myself in that group.

Oh I know and I agree, Im just saying that there are plenty of helpful sites done be coaches who have been there/done that. Grading O Linemen is a lot subjective to some degree...as stated in that article. That's why I go with the block the guy in front of ya approach

[Gavin]

This is totally out of the blue but I am just sitting here watching ALL 22 but did anyone else notice Andrew Jackson was in at FB down at the Colts goal line at :44 left in the 4th quarter? He was used as a lead blocker, He didn't execute his block, He got cut down by the LB and the run went for only 2 yards but that's mainly because of Cherilus getting driven back by his man into the backfield, Nothing spectacular but it shows that staff is willing to experiment some even if its out of necessity

[dudeski]

This is totally out of the blue but I am just sitting here watching ALL 22 but did anyone else notice Andrew Jackson was in at FB down at the Colts goal line at :44 left in the 4th quarter? He was used as a lead blocker, He didn't execute his block, He got cut down by the LB and the run went for only 2 yards but that's mainly because of Cherilus getting driven back by his man into the backfield, Nothing spectacular but it shows that staff is willing to experiment some even if its out of necessity

have you really never seen him at FB?

You? Mr. all 22

[Gavin]

have you really never seen him at FB?

You? Mr. all 22

He has only been at FB 5 times all year, Im always paying attention to the O Line, Alignments, coverages of the defense and such and Luck and WR's

[JPFolks]

Let me see if I can't take another approach on this.    If you put 10 NFL OL coaches in 10 different rooms all watching the exact same tape and asked them to grade the OL performances I'm quite confident you'd end up with 10 different grades.

 

Everybody sees the same thing differently. 

 

Grading is not a black and white thing.   There are many shades of gray.   And it's in the gray area where grades are different between coaches.

 

If grading is that subjective among coaches,  I'm quite confident when I say that 99% of fans here don't know how to properly grade OL performance.    And remember, I'm not knocking anyone, because I'm including myself in that group.

The problem with your logic is that according to your statements above, no one in the world can accurately grade an O-Line performance.  I think the reality would be that your 10 different coaches would have far more similar results than you state and in an overview sense, would mostly be in agreement who did well, who did not do well and where they might have differences would be how to best fix it with whatever you have around and available to you to fix it. 

 

I do think it has been patently OBVIOUS that Shipley has done far better at Center than Harrison has done when he's been in there.  Everyone from Coaches and Ex Players on TV and in the news to journalists who have long covered the Colts to fans of nearly all levels of knowledge who overwhelmingly agree that Shipley has been better. That doesn't mean he's a 10 out of 10, it is more like he's a solid 5 or 6 out of 10 compared to Harrisons 2-3 out of 10.  

 

The Colts staff overall has missed badly on developing some talent letting guys go who have become stars elsewhere.  They have made horrendous decisions on who to bring in like Richardson, Satele, Werner etc.  (Though they may yet find some production out of him before it is all over... we'll see).  Forsett, Hughes, Shipley (who started for Baltimore after being tossed out in a meaningless trade for a few examples).  

 

Hopefully they will figure something out and keep Andrew healthy, even if they aren't good enough to win much in the playoffs.  I think they should draft a top notch Center next year, perhaps another lineman as versatile as Mewhort has been.  It needs to be a focus.  I think drafting an RB (they are being drafted later and later these days) is another good idea.  Give luck time and a middle of the pack rushing game with TY and Moncrief and our TE's and we'll be sniffing legit shots at a SB.  Right now our Colts just don't have the "horses."

[dudeski]

He has only been at FB 5 times all year, Im always paying attention to the O Line, Alignments, coverages of the defense and such and Luck and WR's

a simple no would have worked.

You really need to do better

[NewColtsFan]

The problem with your logic is that according to your statements above, no one in the world can accurately grade an O-Line performance.  I think the reality would be that your 10 different coaches would have far more similar results than you state and in an overview sense, would mostly be in agreement who did well, who did not do well and where they might have differences would be how to best fix it with whatever you have around and available to you to fix it. 

 

I do think it has been patently OBVIOUS that Shipley has done far better at Center than Harrison has done when he's been in there.  Everyone from Coaches and Ex Players on TV and in the news to journalists who have long covered the Colts to fans of nearly all levels of knowledge who overwhelmingly agree that Shipley has been better. That doesn't mean he's a 10 out of 10, it is more like he's a solid 5 or 6 out of 10 compared to Harrisons 2-3 out of 10.  

 

The Colts staff overall has missed badly on developing some talent letting guys go who have become stars elsewhere.  They have made horrendous decisions on who to bring in like Richardson, Satele, Werner etc.  (Though they may yet find some production out of him before it is all over... we'll see).  Forsett, Hughes, Shipley (who started for Baltimore after being tossed out in a meaningless trade for a few examples).  

 

Hopefully they will figure something out and keep Andrew healthy, even if they aren't good enough to win much in the playoffs.  I think they should draft a top notch Center next year, perhaps another lineman as versatile as Mewhort has been.  It needs to be a focus.  I think drafting an RB (they are being drafted later and later these days) is another good idea.  Give luck time and a middle of the pack rushing game with TY and Moncrief and our TE's and we'll be sniffing legit shots at a SB.  Right now our Colts just don't have the "horses."

 

To be clear,  I agree with the vast majority of your post.

 

And I want to follow by adding that I agree,  that the 10 NFL coaches in my hypothetical would all roughly agree on the quality of the blocking.     I was only saying that their grades wouldn't be identical.     You wouldn't have 8 saying the players graded out well,  and two who said they graded out badly.      Where you might have a lot of disagreement is right in the middle.   Some grades might be in the C+ range and others might be in the C-/D+ range.

 

I was not trying to suggest at all that "no one in the world could accurately grade on OL performance"....   sorry that you read it that way,   that was not my meaning at all.

 

I was trying to address Gavin who thinks it's not all that hard to grade OL performance.    That anyone here who reads a few articles on the internet can figure out how to properly grade a performance.

 

I think people who do this for a living have a good idea.

 

I don't think the guy who is a CPA by day can turn into a coach at night and grade performance accurately on his home computer.

 

And that's why I think that 99% of the posters here -- me included -- could not accurately grade an OL performance.

 

A poster we have named Coffeedrinker might.   I think Gavin said he has coached before.    But we're talking about a very, very small handful of posters who could and 99% who couldn't.

[JPFolks]

Well, I have learned not to assume who can or can't do something especially since this is an anonymous board (I wish it was required to use real names and be authenticated, as best you can these days, rather than complete randomness and with people getting nasty because they know they don't have to put their name behind their words, their attacks or in some cases their lies.  

 

I bet we have guys here who played College Football or higher.  I started at Center and was a 4 year letterman at a nationally ranked college program and even got invited to try out for the Colts after our season ended.  It was a long time ago and much has changed since then, but I think I recognize good, medium or lousy o-line play and I can watch two players playing the same position for the same team and determine which one is doing a better job or if they are about even.  Frankly, it's not all that hard to have an accurate general idea of the good, bad and ugly.  I also have a personal disdain for unfairness and blatant nonsense when it is told to me concerning football players and who deserves to play when you have the footage available to compare (something we never had back then, beyond watching film in HS and College before and after games.  Now the tools and the knowledge level of High School programs rival what some Pro organizations once had.  I feel strongly that Shipley has outperformed Harrison consistently.  Many others have agreed with that (not sure I have found anyone who disagreed strongly with that).  I realize there could be many factors we don't know about which impact things, and what happens in practice and film rooms etc. certainly has a bearing on things.  I also know you sometimes have to roll the dice and try to bring a rookie up fast to take over the reigns,  I can't imagine the complexities of today's NFL line calls, blitz reads and so on.  But we don't have to be former Pro Staff members or players or professional analysts to have an opinion that matches reality.  

 

None of this stuff is life or death and I come here to * chat for fun without really worrying about putting in serious film study time.  But football is football and you can tell if a guy is making or missing his blocks etc.  more or less often than another guy.  I think they should bring in a couple serious quality draftees, build the line with them, make them all interchangeable at the three inside spots or even at the Tackle spots as I think Mewhort can pull off if needed.   Luck can't keep getting hit so often and so hard.  They ALL get beat up but Luck has taken more abuse than any other QB since he came into the league and I think we're seeing the results of all that abuse in his poor play the past several games.  I think protecting Luck is something we all should and likely do agree on.  

 

Cheers!  

[ztboiler]

Well, I have learned not to assume who can or can't do something especially since this is an anonymous board (I wish it was required to use real names and be authenticated, as best you can these days, rather than complete randomness and with people getting nasty because they know they don't have to put their name behind their words, their attacks or in some cases their lies.  

 

I bet we have guys here who played College Football or higher.  I started at Center and was a 4 year letterman at a nationally ranked college program and even got invited to try out for the Colts after our season ended.  It was a long time ago and much has changed since then, but I think I recognize good, medium or lousy o-line play and I can watch two players playing the same position for the same team and determine which one is doing a better job or if they are about even.  

I'm honestly not questioning your credentials or past experience.....but I simply find your lead in to the rest of your post to be very, very ironic.

[JPFolks]

To those not interested in the side discussion, please ignore this response, or skip the part between the arrows -----> <------ 

 

--->Ironic because I wish people would use their real names? I'd think many people would be happy to see that switch.  I run a large online board in the music industry and we've switched to real names and it has significantly helped the quality of posting and the civility as well.  Sure, some people will still game the system (i.e. lie about who they are) and get in, be nasty and get banned and then come around as someone else until they finally get tired or their babysitter catches on, but the regular users love it, they get to know real people and make real friends and in our case, actual business contacts to help them in their pursuit.  We allow anonymous users but no one takes anything they say very seriously for the most part and they are on a short leash if they cause trouble.  

 

If your problem is that I think people should feel free to post an opinion without the long lectures about how unqualified they are, well that's not my problem, it's my opinion and hopefully it's the way things are supposed to be here.  If not, I am sure I will hear from Superman about it shortly. <------- 

 

Meanwhile, back to football, give Luck an above average and stable O-Line that isn't getting him pounded mercilessly, and I predict we'll start winning playoff games based off his talent and leadership and good health.  In the meantime, they should start Shipley over Harrison or find an alternative Center from whoever is left on the bench because most of the season has gone by, Harrison and all the other first year guys really aren't "rookies" so much anymore and he doesn't seem to be improving to even the level of Shipley, which isn't a huge bar to cross.  We shouldn't be "developing" Harrison to the detriment of the team and the health of our most important player. Let him do some more work offseason, come back and compete with a new draft choice or quality free agent at the position in the Pre-Season to see if he's really ready to protect our QB and open some holes for whoever may be running the ball next year.  As for Khaled Holmes, we don't have enough data to really know what he's capable of, but obviously he isn't "in favor" with the staff after sitting out most of this year inactive or on the bench. 

 

But that's just my opinion, I could be right.....

 

Have a good day everyone!  

[Nadine]

Well, I have learned not to assume who can or can't do something especially since this is an anonymous board (I wish it was required to use real names and be authenticated, as best you can these days, rather than complete randomness and with people getting nasty because they know they don't have to put their name behind their words, their attacks or in some cases their lies.  .

 

To those not interested in the side discussion, please ignore this response, or skip the part between the arrows -----> <------ 

 

--->Ironic because I wish people would use their real names? I'd think many people would be happy to see that switch.  I run a large online board in the music industry and we've switched to real names and it has significantly helped the quality of posting and the civility as well.  Sure, some people will still game the system (i.e. lie about who they are) and get in, be nasty and get banned and then come around as someone else until they finally get tired or their babysitter catches on, but the regular users love it, they get to know real people and make real friends and in our case, actual business contacts to help them in their pursuit.  We allow anonymous users but no one takes anything they say very seriously for the most part and they are on a short leash if they cause trouble.  

 

If your problem is that I think people should feel free to post an opinion without the long lectures about how unqualified they are, well that's not my problem, it's my opinion and hopefully it's the way things are supposed to be here.  If not, I am sure I will hear from Superman about it shortly. <-------

And yet.........you are here and you are anonymous.  So there must be something here that you don't want to change.

 

Yes there are problems that come with anonymity but it is also what makes forums special.  They are an old technology but they're not going away for a reason.

 

There are more than enough real name requiring websites and they are certainly not free of rude behavior.

 

The vast majority of people here are real.  

[JPFolks]

If anyone wants to know who I am, they can check my profile for my full real name, my website which leads to the company I run, and anything else you want to know.   Message boards are great and I have run them since the days of dial up BBS communities.  Our Org turns 30 years old and we've had a message board longer than a website.  Unlike the Colts, we don't have the technology support and budget to use the Auto Login features using sites like Facebook, but you guys should have that technology available.  What is the downside? 

 

But all that is secondary to the point I made and was rebuked over, now by you as well.  What exactly is wrong with the idea that people should be about to post their opinions here without fear of being told they are unqualified to make those comments or attacked, humiliated and ostracized by people who disagree or simply enjoy trolling folks? And why are you now coming after me for raising that question instead of at least agreeing that people should be able to post without fear of attacks? I don't get it.  It seems okay to the admins for people to attack others, but not okay to point out how wrong the trolls are for doing it?

 

Brian 

[Nadine]

If anyone wants to know who I am, they can check my profile for my full real name, my website which leads to the company I run, and anything else you want to know.   Message boards are great and I have run them since the days of dial up BBS communities.  Our Org turns 30 years old and we've had a message board longer than a website.  Unlike the Colts, we don't have the technology support and budget to use the Auto Login features using sites like Facebook, but you guys should have that technology available.  What is the downside? 

 

But all that is secondary to the point I made and was rebuked over, now by you as well.  What exactly is wrong with the idea that people should be about to post their opinions here without fear of being told they are unqualified to make those comments or attacked, humiliated and ostracized by people who disagree or simply enjoy trolling folks? And why are you now coming after me for raising that question instead of at least agreeing that people should be able to post without fear of attacks? I don't get it.  It seems okay to the admins for people to attack others, but not okay to point out how wrong the trolls are for doing it?

 

Brian 

Which part of what I said was an attack?

I'm sorry you are not comfortable or trusting of our boards. As a forum moderator, I am sure you know it's a good idea spending some time getting to know the board and the people before passing judgement.

 

All boards are not the same and our members like ours the way that it is.  The people here are nice.......some gruff, some argumentative and some cross the line. We do our best to maintain civility and are a popular place with a lot of people who prefer our more civil environment.

 

You don't see it that way, I understand.  But others do.