The Center Position (Merge)

[Archer]

We're all scratching our heads and wondering what Pagano's doing at the center position.  Why would we replace Shipley, who was playing pretty lights out?  It occurs to me that maybe we're just missing the obvious answer: Pagano and the OL coaches felt that Harrison is the better player, based largely on what they see every day at practice.  It's a good problem to have - the team has two young, high quality centers it can turn to. 

 

Or is that three?  Holmes was talked up considerably in the off-season, and let's not forget those 19 magical snaps he's played for the Colts over the 2013 regular season and the 2014 pre-season!  My take on him is that after suffering a high ankle sprain in his first series this year, Pagano decided to shut him down in the interest of ensuring he's available if needed later this year.  By the time he was in shape to play, we seemed to have these two other centers playing well, so there was no need to rush him into the line-up.  High ankle sprains are notorious for lingering, particularly if the player does too much too soon.  So maybe the proper course of action is to practice Holmes at each of the interior OL positions and have him ready to start playing a role if Thornton or Mewhort were to go down for the year later on...   

[BleedBlu8792]

I still believe it was Baltimores familiarity with Shipley as to the reason why they made the switch. They had an excellent view of his last season and probably knew they could take advantage of him. Shipley has been good don't get me wrong, buy "lights out" is a stretch. I think Harrison was a more athletic/stronger fit for the O-line this game than Shipley was.

I wouldn't be surprised if Shipley is back starting Thurs. I wouldn't too much into it. The good thing is that it gave Harrison good experience against a stout defense and handled the challenge well.

[YOUR GM]

Harrison clearly looked superior as a blocker in this game than any game I've seen from Shipley or Holmes this season. He had a few hiccups (that comes with being an undrafted rookie free agent starting in his first professional football game) but he had a pancake block on the Bradshaw fullback run, he constantly held his blocks to completion in both pass pro and run blocking, and he (along with Thornton and Louis) moved well in the screen game, even though the backs didn't get any major yardage off the plays, but the blocks were there. I think it's clear Harrison is probably the best prospect of the 3, having a good balance of strength/size and mobility.

 

I'm fine with the change. The line should only improve as he gets more reps and when Mewhort returns to action

[jbaron04]

I'm fine with the play of Harrison, I didn't notice alot of pressure up the middle

[IndyD4U]

I like the beef that Harrison brings to the line. Most of us are a lil' baffled on the status of our center position. I think it's a combination of Baltimore being able to exploit Shipley and the level of Harrison's play behind closed doors. 

 

I'm perfectly fine with Harrison starting and I look forward to seeing Castonzo, Mewhort, Harrison, Thornton, Cherilus on Thursday night. That said, Shipley has played well, as for Holmes...well...there are a lot of uncertainties.

[Rich Cannon]

First start he played well, I'm sure he will fix the little things, Shipley has played well imo.

[temujin1227]

Pro Football Focus Grades for Harrison yesterday.

# Player Team snaps Overal Pass Screen Run

1 Corey Linsley GB 57 4.1 -0.4 -0.5 4.9

2 Ryan Kalil CAR 66 3.3 0.0 0.0 3.2

3 Chris Myers HST 61 2.8 0.7 0.0 2.0

4 Jeremy Zuttah BLT 60 2.6 0.6 0.0 1.9

5 J.D. Walton NYG 71 2.5 0.8 0.0 1.6

6 Alex Mack CLV 78 1.7 1.0 0.0 0.6

7 Travis Frederick DAL 78 1.6 1.0 0.0 0.5

8 Rodney Hudson KC 52 1.5 0.8 0.5 0.1

9 Evan Dietrich-Smith TB 64 0.8 0.5 0.0 0.2 10 David Molk PHI 76 0.6 1.0 0.0 -0.5

11 Luke Bowanko JAX 57 0.5 0.9 0.0 0.5

12 Daniel Kilgore SF 71 0.4 0.8 0.0 -0.5

12 Bryan Stork NE 87 0.4 0.5 -0.5 1.3

12 Maurkice Pouncey PIT 70 0.4 0.0 0.0 0.3

12 Brian Schwenke TEN 70 0.4 -0.5 0.0 0.8

16 Jonathan Goodwin NO 29 -0.2 -0.5 0.0 0.3

16 Brian De La Puente CHI 67 -0.2 0.0 0.0 -0.3

18 Dominic Raiola DET 64 -0.3 -0.5 0.0 0.1

19 Eric Wood BUF 76 -0.4 -1.4 -0.5 1.4

20 Manuel Ramirez DEN 82 -1.3 -1.8 0.0 0.4

21 John Sullivan MIN 80 -1.4 -3.7 0.0 2.2

22 Tim Lelito NO 64 -1.8 -2.5 0.5 0.1

23 Peter Konz ATL 72 -2.1 0.2 -0.5 -1.9

24 Jonotthan Harrison IND 85 -2.2 1.3 0.0 -2.6

25 Nick Mangold CIN 55 -2.4 -0.1 0.0 -2.4

27 Scott Wells SL 82 -3.3 -1.1 0.0 -2.3

28 Lyle Sendlein ARZ 59 -3.4 -2.6 0.0 -0.9

29 Doug Legursky SD 71 -4.0 -1.2 0.0 -2.9

We could argue over the validity of PFF's grading efficiency but the fact is that many of the players actually use it to justify salary demands in their contract negotiations and it has widely been accepted as a fair grading system for how a player is actually playing compared to other players at the same position in the league. Obviously, one game does not make a fair assessment of a player’s ability, but Harrison did not play well yesterday according to the experts. Yes, the Colts won, but they won huge last week and Shipley actually had a -.5 score. I am a newbie here and I would not think to question Coach's decision but time will tell if he was correct. Shipley had graded out as the number 3 Center in the NFL for the first quarter of the season. The two players that had graded out ahead of him (Mangold and De La Puente) had very poor games yesterday, so had Shipley played yesterday and just had the average of his first four games, He would now be grading out as the number one Center in the NFL according to PFF. Now he sits on the bench. Shipley has started (9) games for the Colts. Seven of the nine games he had positive grades with his two negative grades both being a -.5. Harrison just graded out as the 24 out of 29 Centers yesterday with a -2.2. Shipley never played close to that poorly in any of his 9 starts at Center for the Colts over the two seasons. Obviously the Coaches know what they are doing but I will be waiting for their decision to pay off based on factual grading by people paid to analyze every play for every player at every position in great detail instead of perceived play by myself or others who are watching a myriad of players throughout every play. Time will soon tell if this was a good decision, but as of yesterday, it was not. I know I am the new guy here and I admitted I was a Penn State fan and have followed Shipley, but I am also a reasonable guy and think my argument is sound. I have always been a Colts fan and hope the Coach’s made the right decision and will happy to agree with all those that think he did as soon as the facts support it.

[Jason_]

First, I definitely wouldn't say that Shipley was playing "lights out".  He was playing pretty well, but there was definitely room for improvement.  Second, I don't think it had anything to do with Baltimore's familiarity with Shipley as much as it had to do with how well Pagano felt that Shipley would match up against the DL of Balt.  And as I said in another thread, if anyone on the Colts team would know which C matches up best with the Balt front it would be Pagano.

[Manning1887]

Harrison can only get better. The real test for him will come Thursday in Houston. Perhaps not as talented a defensive line as Baltimore, but still talented with a loud home crowd behind it. 

 

Holmes is injury prone. That was the knock on him coming out of college and nothing has changed since coming to the NFL. That ankle of his will ALWAYS be an issue. 

[GoColts8818]

I'm fine with the play of Harrison, I didn't notice alot of pressure up the middle

PFF said he gave up zero pressures on 55 snaps. That's something to build on.

[texascolt]

On the depth chart, Harrison is ahead of Shipley. #1 Holmes #2 Harrison #3 Shipley

[Valpo2004]

Sorry guys I just can't get past Harrison's snapping mistakes.  He made like 3 or 4 of them.  

 

He made snapping mistakes in the pre-season as well.

 

I don't like starting him at center at all until he gets those taken care of.  

[Superman]

Sorry guys I just can't get past Harrison's snapping mistakes. He made like 3 or 4 of them.

He made snapping mistakes in the pre-season as well.

I don't like starting him at center at all until he gets those taken care of.

That's a problem that only gets fixed with playing time.

[jvan1973]

Sorry guys I just can't get past Harrison's snapping mistakes. He made like 3 or 4 of them.

He made snapping mistakes in the pre-season as well.

I don't like starting him at center at all until he gets those taken care of.

You have to play to cure that problem. The coaching staff will work that out. Can he block and make line calls is what is really important

[HtownColt]

Looks like Harrison is the center of the future for us, he is strong as an ox and pretty good in pass protection, struggled a bit against Brandon Williams in the run game. Gotta fix the mental mistakes ASAP. We all knew Shipley wasn't going to be our center of the future so I guess it was for the best to get Harisson out there early in the season and let him progress from there

[C0LT5]

Harrison clearly looked superior as a blocker in this game than any game I've seen from Shipley or Holmes this season. He had a few hiccups (that comes with being an undrafted rookie free agent starting in his first professional football game) but he had a pancake block on the Bradshaw fullback run, he constantly held his blocks to completion in both pass pro and run blocking, and he (along with Thornton and Louis) moved well in the screen game, even though the backs didn't get any major yardage off the plays, but the blocks were there. I think it's clear Harrison is probably the best prospect of the 3, having a good balance of strength/size and mobility.

 

I'm fine with the change. The line should only improve as he gets more reps and when Mewhort returns to action

 

I don't know how anything can be clear, we haven't seen Holmes enough.

[Superman]

but I am also a reasonable guy and think my argument is sound. I have always been a Colts fan and hope the Coach’s made the right decision and will happy to agree with all those that think he did as soon as the facts support it.

 

I appreciate your post, it's obviously well thought out.

 

However, it's pretty much entirely based on PFF grades. You're not acknowledging the negative impact that Harrison's procedural mistakes had on his PFF grade, for starters. They gave him a -0.9 for penalties alone; that doesn't include the high snap, or the early snap. If not for those mistakes, his grade wouldn't have been -2.2.

 

And by referring to PFF as "the experts," I think you're attributing far too much credit to them. I'm not here to diss PFF, but their grades are not definitive. That holds true for how they've been grading Shipley and how they've graded Harrison for this game.

 

I'm still rewatching the game, but my initial feeling is that Harrison was great in pass protection, and that he did a decent job as a run blocker. Some mistakes, but he didn't look overmatched, nor did he look like the job was just too much for him. I don't think he was any worse than Shipley as a run blocker.

 

You're right, time will tell whether this was the right move, assuming Harrison stays on the field. I still don't know what the plan is, why they made the switch, etc. But I don't think the switch backfired on them or made them look like they don't know what they're doing. I think Harrison showed himself to be a better player, to be honest, with more upside.

[jbaron04]

PFF said he gave up zero pressures on 55 snaps. That's something to build on.

Harrison played well aside from 2 bad plays, better than satele Lol,

[Valpo2004]

That's a problem that only gets fixed with playing time.

 

Are you sure, because a lot of other centers have come in and been able to get the snap right consistently from day 1.  I've never seen a center screw up so many snaps. 

[Superman]

Are you sure, because a lot of other centers have come in and been able to get the snap right consistently from day 1. I've never seen a center screw up so many snaps.

So many? It was 3 snaps, by my count, out of 80+ plays.

And also, yes, other centers mess up the snap sometimes. Joe Hawley had some snap issues last year when he took over for the Falcons. There many other examples of well established centers with a bad snap here or there. In Harrison's case, this is something that popped up in preseason, and is still an issue, so I get being concerned about it. But for a guy with so little experience and who has been in and out of the lineup, even practicing at other positions, I don't think it's too alarming. If it continues, yeah, he can't stay in the game.

[sundance75]

So many? It was 3 snaps, by my count, out of 80+ plays.

And also, yes, other centers mess up the snap sometimes. Joe Hawley had some snap issues last year when he took over for the Falcons. There many other examples of well established centers with a bad snap here or there. In Harrison's case, this is something that popped up in preseason, and is still an issue, so I get being concerned about it. But for a guy with so little experience and who has been in and out of the lineup, even practicing at other positions, I don't think it's too alarming. If it continues, yeah, he can't stay in the game.

[Valpo2004]

So many? It was 3 snaps, by my count, out of 80+ plays.

And also, yes, other centers mess up the snap sometimes. Joe Hawley had some snap issues last year when he took over for the Falcons. There many other examples of well established centers with a bad snap here or there. In Harrison's case, this is something that popped up in preseason, and is still an issue, so I get being concerned about it. But for a guy with so little experience and who has been in and out of the lineup, even practicing at other positions, I don't think it's too alarming. If it continues, yeah, he can't stay in the game.

 

3 plays . . . heck even one play can determine who wins and loses a game.  It hinders us greatly when you have a guy who consistently can't get right one of the most fundamental actions in the game.  

 

If there where 80 plays that means he's screwing up on 3.75% of the snaps.  

 

Too me the snap is too fundamental for me to say "oh lets just give him time."

[HtownColt]

He had one bad snap in his first game. The other two were snap count issues which are easily correctable

[Dustin]

He had one bad snap in his first game. The other two were snap count issues which are easily correctable

 

He had multiple bad snaps. Only 1 was really noticable because of how bad it was. 

[Superman]

3 plays . . . heck even one play can determine who wins and loses a game.  It hinders us greatly when you have a guy who consistently can't get right one of the most fundamental actions in the game.  

 

If there where 80 plays that means he's screwing up on 3.75% of the snaps.  

 

Too me the snap is too fundamental for me to say "oh lets just give him time."

 

I don't think we're saying terribly different things here. I'm not suggesting that it's okay to mess up on 3 out of 80 snaps. It's not.

 

But if you believe that he's a better center overall -- and I think there's reason to believe the staff thinks he is, although I don't claim to understand exactly what's going on -- then you give him some time to iron out his snap issues. You do so because you'd rather have the better player in the game. I don't think there's anything radical about that. 

 

I agree that the snap is critical, and I don't think you just shrug it off. But I also don't think you yank him right away. Like I said, centers sometimes mess up the snap, even veterans. A couple mistakes by a rookie in his first start isn't that surprising, nor is it the end of the world.

 

 

It happens. The Falcons didn't bench Hawley; they re-signed him and named him their starter, and he was the guy until he got hurt last week.

[Superman]

He had multiple bad snaps. Only 1 was really noticable because of how bad it was. 

 

When?

 

I only remember the high snap that went over Luck's head. The other two problems were a no-snap, and an early snap.

[Dustin]

His shotgun snaps were consistently high.

[snkdy]

#colts Pagano: Center position change again? I don't anticipate anything, but .... (stay tuned). @rtv6

— Mike Chappell (@mchappell51)

October 6, 2014

[Superman]

His shotgun snaps were consistently high.

 

I'll look for that...

[Superman]

3 plays . . . heck even one play can determine who wins and loses a game.  It hinders us greatly when you have a guy who consistently can't get right one of the most fundamental actions in the game.  

 

If there where 80 plays that means he's screwing up on 3.75% of the snaps.  

 

Too me the snap is too fundamental for me to say "oh lets just give him time."

 

Do you see these bad snaps by Max Unger?

[ColtsLegacy]

His shotgun snaps were consistently high.

I'll look for that...

Yeah, Luck had to reach over his head for a lot of snaps.

[swifty1812]

If it means anything at all,  Venturi was on JMV last night and had high praises for Harrison. He is a big fan of the move, because in his eyes Shipley is average and Harrison looks to be the best Center of the bunch.

[Dark Superman]

I remember a few high snaps as well.. But luck managed it well.

[dw49]

If it means anything at all,  Venturi was on JMV last night and had high praises for Harrison. He is a big fan of the move, because in his eyes Shipley is average and Harrison looks to be the best Center of the bunch.

 

 

That's been my point throughout this. If you believe Harrison has a way higher floor than a guy that's been traded for a 7th and cut twice in the past 3 seasons , you make the move. That move will in all likelihood have a few bumps in the road .. but you (IMO) bite the bullet and get on with it.

[throwing BBZ]

Yeah, Luck had to reach over his head for a lot of snaps.

 

 No he didn`t.

[Coffeedrinker]

 No he didn`t.

I will give credit where credit is due.  You talked about Harrison in the preseason and said he'd be starting by this time of the season.

 

It appears you were correct.  Good call.

[ColtsLegacy]

No he didn`t.

Yes, he did.

[throwing BBZ]

Do you see these bad snaps by Max Unger?

 

 Tell us how Unger did in his 1st start please.

 Maybe just maybe he will improve if he starts for a week or two and gets the 1st string snaps in practice. If not cut the ______!!

 He did good at maintaining his balance and he was really jabbing them with his long arms. Very Promising Indeed!!

 Loved the 20 yard run up the gut thanks to Jon getting a solid block with a nudge from Lance and Lance cleaning out the LB.

 The missing link in our run game is being strong up the gut. Thornton is killing us at it. And Shipley was weak.

[Coffeedrinker]

He had one bad snap in his first game. The other two were snap count issues which are easily correctable

The snap count issues concern me more than the high snap.  From the earliest time of learning football you are taught what the snap count is and how important it is.  Missing the snap count once in your first start is not excusable but it's perhaps understandable.  Missing it twice shows a severe lack of concentration which cannot happen for a center beyond the pop-warner stage of football.

[Jason_]

Yeah, Luck had to reach over his head for a lot of snaps.

 

Yeah like the other poster said, no he didn't.  Yes, several of the shotgun snaps were high, but Luck caught them right around face level whereas they should have been around chest level.  Even on the snap that wound up going over his head, Luck still got his hands on the ball when it was right around his forehead but because that particular snap was even higher than the others, it must have caught Luck offguard enough that the ball went through his hands.