Disguising the Offense - this bother anyone else?

[ColtsHappy]

I have noticed repeatedly that since Pep has arrived we tend to give away what we are doing by the offensive player packages and the formations we use on the field. Of course, it is not just the Colts, but I have seen this with a number of teams especially in recent years.

 

Bill Walsh and other pretty keen football minds always liked to work everything from a few very similar formations so it was harder to tell where they were going with the ball. To confuse things even further, Peyton was always of the mindset that it doesn't matter if they know what we are doing or where we are going with the ball, they still have to stop us.

 

How important is the "element of surprise" when it comes to the offense packages - and does our approach in certain situations bother anyone else, or is it just me?

 

Comment if you see fit.

 

ColtsHappy

 

 

[PrincetonTiger]

Not really concerned

[ColtsHoosiersBB]

If we can run the ball effectively this year then the play action will come into play

and keep teams guessing. Gotta run the ball and stop the run on D....basic football 101.

[dudeski]

I hate when he limits us with personnel. Needs to spread them out and run much more

[TonyBungee]

I don't know about surprise, but they definitely should be less predictable. Last year, if TR was in, they were most likely handing off & running off-tackle. With DB, probably swing pass or draw.

I hope this year they can run any play no matter what RB is out there.

[Black-Vell]

Yeah i'd be concerned..........if you were talking about Madden 15 and by "knowing the plays" you meant sitting right next to me as I am calling them or worse, seeing my playart at the line of scrimmage. But since you are talking about real life......no, i'm not worried about whatever it is you were trying to explain.

 

I would add that football is more complicated than most people understand. (which is on full display in almost all discussions about T Richardson i might add) When we run a play that works, its not successful just because the other team didnt know what play we called or vice verse. There isnt a play or route concept or scheme that works against every defense ( or like Madden) everyone would run it. In my opinion, I look at Pep and other Offensive Coordinators like pitchers. Some have 2 pitches to work with, some have 5. Due to a weak OL and key injuries, Pep hasnt had an opportunity to develop all 5 of his pitches. I believe our OFF wont need to disguise much. D Allen and C Fleenor give us a lot of flexibility. They can be on the field for power runs all the way up to a 4wr spread look. (Really a 2WR 2TE 1RB but you know what I mean)

 

We are finally to a point where this will all come down to the OL, so in my opinion, that's my only concern on OFF this year.  

[throwing BBZ]

Yeah i'd be concerned..........if you were talking about Madden 15 and by "knowing the plays" you meant sitting right next to me as I am calling them or worse, seeing my playart at the line of scrimmage. But since you are talking about real life......no, i'm not worried about whatever it is you were trying to explain.

 

I would add that football is more complicated than most people understand. (which is on full display in almost all discussions about T Richardson i might add) When we run a play that works, its not successful just because the other team didnt know what play we called or vice verse. There isnt a play or route concept or scheme that works against every defense ( or like Madden) everyone would run it. In my opinion, I look at Pep and other Offensive Coordinators like pitchers. Some have 2 pitches to work with, some have 5. Due to a weak OL and key injuries, Pep hasnt had an opportunity to develop all 5 of his pitches. I believe our OFF wont need to disguise much. D Allen and C Fleenor give us a lot of flexibility. They can be on the field for power runs all the way up to a 4wr spread look. (Really a 2WR 2TE 1RB but you know what I mean)

 

We are finally to a point where this will all come down to the OL, so in my opinion, that's my only concern on OFF this year.  

 

 Thank you Veil.

   PEP was given a sack of t_ _ _s to work with.

  That blocking.... All across the line...  Games like 0 for 6 to DHB.

  We won because we didn`t turn the ball over and were very low in penalties. Great job by Pep.

  Pep built a decent foundation in year one, but has a QB, all 3 Interior lineman, 3 wide receivers, his RB, and a TE to develope.

 "Peps" O, really gets Started This season. It should Finally turn into some pretty good Offensive football.

[MB-ColtsFan]

With regards to T-Rich, it was very vanilla and predictable until Pep finally realized (was it week 13?) that Trent could be used in the passing game. To the degree of stubbornness not to change sooner; yes, that did/does concern me heading into this year. I just hope he learned to adjust sooner should the O-Line be just as bad this year.

[NewColtsFan]

 Thank you Veil.

   PEP was given a sack of t_ _ _s to work with.

  That blocking.... All across the line...  Games like 0 for 6 to DHB.

  We won because we didn`t turn the ball over and were very low in penalties. Great job by Pep.

  Pep built a decent foundation in year one, but has a QB, all 3 Interior lineman, 3 wide receivers, his RB, and a TE to develope.

 "Peps" O, really gets Started This season. It should Finally turn into some pretty good Offensive football.

 

I'd say +1....

 

But, I'd add Pep has two tight ends to develop.   

 

All that said, whenever Trent was in I often thought our offense looked predictable,  well scouted.   It often looked like the defense knew what was coming.   That their line was able to blow-up our line right at the snap and things went downhill from there......

 

Hoping for better this year........

[crazycolt1]

I hate when he limits us with personnel. Needs to spread them out and run much more

With the injuries and lack of veterans on the offense the Colts offense was limited. Kind of hard to point the finger at Pep when he was limited. 

[dudeski]

With the injuries and lack of veterans on the offense the Colts offense was limited. Kind of hard to point the finger at Pep when he was limited.

no it isnt

[Flash7]

With the injuries and lack of veterans on the offense the Colts offense was limited. Kind of hard to point the finger at Pep when he was limited. 

I agree with your statement, and it's true to some extent; however, D. Allen went out in week 1, Thomas, one of our better linemen went out in week 2, and Wayne, our best receiver went out in week 8. Couple that with the ineffectiveness of DHB, our O-line and TRich, and you would have to ask why it took so long to make adjustments. We didn't see any major changes in the offensive game plan until week 13.

Before then, we were consistently down by several points by the first half every week and it was obvious changes needed to happen. It took too long, and Pep was forced to change, rather than be ahead of the curve. That was a major concern, and hopefully corrected through experience.

[crazycolt1]

no it isnt

If you want to debate an issue then an explanation is a good start rather than a plain argumentative comment.

[crazycolt1]

I agree with your statement, and it's true to some extent; however, D. Allen went out in week 1, Thomas, one of our better linemen went out in week 2, and Wayne, our best receiver went out in week 8. Couple that with the ineffectiveness of DHB, our O-line and TRich, and you would have to ask why it took so long to make adjustments. We didn't see any major changes in the offensive game plan until week 13.

Before then, we were consistently down by several points by the first half every week and it was obvious changes needed to happen. It took too long, and Pep was forced to change, rather than be ahead of the curve. That was a major concern, and hopefully corrected through experience.

Also we need to keep in mind that Pep was a rookie offensive coordinator. It does take time to develop a new system with new personal all over the place. I am like you let's hope things go smoother than last season. It still was a pretty good step in the win category with the things really were.

[akcolt]

With regards to T-Rich, it was very vanilla and predictable until Pep finally realized (was it week 13?) that Trent could be used in the passing game. To the degree of stubbornness not to change sooner; yes, that did/does concern me heading into this year. I just hope he learned to adjust sooner should the O-Line be just as bad this year.s

strange it would take him until week 13 Trent had 51 receptions as a rookie in Cleveland you would think that would be a hint I am interested to see what Pep does this year with the score first offense.

[SOMDColtsfan]

I don't think the Colts offense was vanilla to the point you knew exactly what play they were running out of a given formation. Its about execution and having D lineman in your backfield before the running back is handed the ball makes any offense look predictable when running the rock. Peyton didn't just pick a play and run no matter what the defense did. Exact opposite, he`d pick the best play of many out of a formation depending on what the defense showed right up til the last second. But that does fall in line with what you are saying, he disguised it well. IMO, If Andrew Luck can get a little help from the Oline and have time to throw it should help him not lock onto receivers which he had a tendency in doing, that makes the offense look predictable also.

[TKnight24]

I have noticed repeatedly that since Pep has arrived we tend to give away what we are doing by the offensive player packages and the formations we use on the field. Of course, it is not just the Colts, but I have seen this with a number of teams especially in recent years.

 

Bill Walsh and other pretty keen football minds always liked to work everything from a few very similar formations so it was harder to tell where they were going with the ball. To confuse things even further, Peyton was always of the mindset that it doesn't matter if they know what we are doing or where we are going with the ball, they still have to stop us.

 

How important is the "element of surprise" when it comes to the offense packages - and does our approach in certain situations bother anyone else, or is it just me?

 

Comment if you see fit.

 

ColtsHappy

 

 

I don't know about surprise, but they definitely should be less predictable. Last year, if TR was in, they were most likely handing off & running off-tackle. With DB, probably swing pass or draw.

I hope this year they can run any play no matter what RB is out there.

 

 

With regards to T-Rich, it was very vanilla and predictable until Pep finally realized (was it week 13?) that Trent could be used in the passing game. To the degree of stubbornness not to change sooner; yes, that did/does concern me heading into this year. I just hope he learned to adjust sooner should the O-Line be just as bad this year.

 

You know, the 49ers run that same "jumbo" set we do. You know the extra lineman comes in one? They do fine with it. So are we really too predictable or are we just not having the right people in to run our offense?

 

Defenses know Marshawn Lymch is getting the ball, did they stop him? 

 

Defenses know Megatron is getting the ball, is there anyone who can stop him?

 

Doesn't matter if you know what the other team is running, what matters is can you stop it??

 

I would've assumed you'd all know that after watching Peyton Manning do it for years. Teams knew the Colts were throwing the ball with Peyton, they didn't stop it (except the Chargers, they were the kryptonite to us)

 

[Flash7]

You know, the 49ers run that same "jumbo" set we do. You know the extra lineman comes in one? They do fine with it. So are we really too predictable or are we just not having the right people in to run our offense?

Defenses know Marshawn Lymch is getting the ball, did they stop him?

Defenses know Megatron is getting the ball, is there anyone who can stop him?

Doesn't matter if you know what the other team is running, what matters is can you stop it??

I would've assumed you'd all know that after watching Peyton Manning do it for years. Teams knew the Colts were throwing the ball with Peyton, they didn't stop it (except the Chargers, they were the kryptonite to us)

the Niners have a great O-line. We had a horrible O-line. Just because it worked for them doesn't excuse Pep's inability to see that it didn't work with our O-line.

We Don't have Marshawn Lynch. Enough said about that.

We don't have Megatron. Enough said about that.

You've just named some of the most elite players in the league and said they can't be stopped. Of course, that's why their elite.

Your examples basically support the conclusion that we ran the wrong offense for our personnel. With the talent that we had, we couldn't afford to be predictable.

[TKnight24]

the Niners have a great O-line. We had a horrible O-line. Just because it worked for them doesn't excuse Pep's inability to see that it didn't work with our O-line.

We Don't have Marshawn Lynch. Enough said about that.

We don't have Megatron. Enough said about that.

You've just named some of the most elite players in the league and said they can't be stopped. Of course, that's why their elite.

Your examples basically support the conclusion that we ran the wrong offense for our personnel. With the talent that we had, we couldn't afford to be predictable.

But the original post wasn't about if our offense is wrong. The original thread post was asking if our offense was too predictable so I gave examples of predictable offenses.

Whether the players I named are elite or not doesn't matter. People can't stop Andrew Luck from pulling comebacks. And you can't call Andrew elite cause he's very young

[Flash7]

But the original post wasn't about if our offense is wrong. The original thread post was asking if our offense was too predictable so I gave examples of predictable offenses.

Whether the players I named are elite or not doesn't matter. People can't stop Andrew Luck from pulling comebacks. And you can't call Andrew elite cause he's very young

Yes, absolutely. I get what you are saying. My point is that you can afford to be predictable when you have the Niners' O-line, or Lynch, or Megatron.

The point of the thread was if our offense was predictable and given our talent level, yes, it was. Too predictable.

Thankfully we have Luck, and T.Y. and others who have really grown.

[swankdizzle]

It seems to me the defenders of Pep Hamilton's play calling are missing the point.  Last season, the Colts couldn't run the ball.  It may sound good in a press conference to say "We're going to establish the run." or "We want to be able to run the ball and stop the run."  It should have taken Pep Hamilton and Chuck Pagano about three plays into the season to realize that the Colts couldn't do that.  If your offensive linemen can't block, you can't run the ball into the line.  I don't care what your "philosophy" is.

[Gavin]

It seems to me the defenders of Pep Hamilton's play calling are missing the point.  Last season, the Colts couldn't run the ball.  It may sound good in a press conference to say "We're going to establish the run." or "We want to be able to run the ball and stop the run."  It should have taken Pep Hamilton and Chuck Pagano about three plays into the season to realize that the Colts couldn't do that.  If your offensive linemen can't block, you can't run the ball into the line.  I don't care what your "philosophy" is.

We were able to run the ball the first few games of the season (I am not including Lucks scrambles)

 

vs Oakland (Bradshaw, Ballard combined 20 runs for 89 yards, 4.45 ypc)

vs Miami (Brown, Bradshaw 22 carries Combined 95 yards, 4.3 ypc).....Thomas went down in this game for the season

vs 49ers (35 carries between Bradshaw, Brown and Ballard....155 rushing yards 4.42 ypc)

vs Jax (Brown, Richardson, 23 carries 125 carries, 5.4 ypc)

vs Seattle (Richardson, Brown 24 carries, 93 yards, 3.8 ypc)

vs Chargers ( 13 carries between Richardson and Brown 55 yards, 4.23 ypc....Ran the ball well and Luck threw 12 incomplete passes the entire game....Chargers....particularly Matthews ran all over us and our defense could not get off the field)

 

There was other games

[Gavin]

We were able to run the ball the first few games of the season (I am not including Lucks scrambles)

 

vs Oakland (Bradshaw, Ballard combined 20 runs for 89 yards, 4.45 ypc)

vs Miami (Brown, Bradshaw 22 carries Combined 95 yards, 4.3 ypc).....Thomas went down in this game for the season

vs 49ers (35 carries between Bradshaw, Brown and Ballard....155 rushing yards 4.42 ypc)

vs Jax (Brown, Richardson, 23 carries 125 carries, 5.4 ypc)

vs Seattle (Richardson, Brown 24 carries, 93 yards, 3.8 ypc)

vs Chargers ( 13 carries between Richardson and Brown 55 yards, 4.23 ypc....Ran the ball well and Luck threw 12 incomplete passes the entire game....Chargers....particularly Matthews ran all over us and our defense could not get off the field)

 

There was other games

We were able to run the ball the first few games of the season (I am NOT including Lucks scrambles)

 

vs Oakland (Bradshaw, Ballard combined 20 runs for 89 yards, 4.45 ypc)

 

vs Miami (Brown, Bradshaw 22 carries Combined 95 yards, 4.3 ypc).....Thomas went down in this game for the season

 

vs 49ers (35 carries between Bradshaw, Brown and Ballard....155 rushing yards 4.42 ypc)

 

vs Jax (Brown, Richardson, 23 carries 125 carries, 5.4 ypc)

 

vs Seattle (Richardson, Brown 24 carries, 93 yards, 3.8 ypc)

 

vs Chargers ( 13 carries between Richardson and Brown 55 yards, 4.23 ypc....Ran the ball well and Luck threw 12 incomplete passes the entire game....Chargers....particularly Matthews ran all over us and our defense could not get off the field)

 

vs Broncos (Brown and Richardson, 25 carries 60 yards....2.4 ypc. Terrible game)

 

(BYE week)

 

vs Texans (Richardson, Brown combined 14 carries 69 yards.....4.92 yards per rush)

 

 

vs Rams (Brown, Richardson, Herron 8 carries total  16 yards....2 ypc....St Louis jumped on us early)

 

vs Titans (Brown, Richardson 22 carries combined 102 yards 4.6 ypc)

 

vs Cardinals (Herron, Richardson, Brown 13 carries 50 yards....3.8 ypc)

 

vs Titans (Richardson, Brown 19 carries 73 yards...3.8 ypc)

 

vs Bengals (Richardson, Brown 10 carries 31 yards...3.1 ypc)

 

vs Houston (Richardson, Brown, Choice, 29 carries 110 yards....3.79 ypc)

 

vs Chiefs (27 carries total between Brown, Choice, Richardson.....27 carries, 130 yards...4.81 ypc )

 

 

vs Jax (25 carries total between Brown, Richardson, Herron, 74 yards..Bad game....2.96 ypc)

 

 

We had games where we ran fine or better then fine but got down early or there were games we just had no intention of running, The again there was times we ran the ball awful....I got cut off for some reason

[dudeski]

If you want to debate an issue then an explanation is a good start rather than a plain argumentative comment.

injuries were no reason for pep being horrible at his job. There's nothing to discuss.

[lollygagger8]

I'd just like to see Pep actually change it up by not using a Fullback. I really dislike that we take a way a WR and settle for a FB. 

 

If for some reason Pep is dead set on using one (which I think he is) actually throw the ball out of FB sets to "disguise" the offense. I don't know how many times we actually threw the ball in FB sets, but I'd venture to say it was as many as running it. 

[jskinnz]

I personally believe Pep is a good coach and will become a very good coordinator.  He is not a finished product by any means and he did get into some different plays, formations & personnel groupings as the season progressed. 

 

I have much more worries about the defense than the offense. 

[Pelt]

 Thank you Veil.

   PEP was given a sack of t_ _ _s to work with.

  That blocking.... All across the line...  Games like 0 for 6 to DHB.

  We won because we didn`t turn the ball over and were very low in penalties. Great job by Pep.

  Pep built a decent foundation in year one, but has a QB, all 3 Interior lineman, 3 wide receivers, his RB, and a TE to develope.

 "Peps" O, really gets Started This season. It should Finally turn into some pretty good Offensive football.

This.

 

I'd also like to add that Pep was probably being dictated to from Pagano and Grigson on how the offense was going to be ran (As well as which personnel were going to be used), which I believe handcuffed Pep's creativity to a severe degree. Wayne's injury was almost a blessing in disguise in that it finally forced the allowance of Pep to get more creative and that created some more favorable results as the regular season went along.

 

I think Pep will be given more freedom to be creative this year.

 

I'll never understand how some folks will lay the blame of the offenses shortcomings at the feet of Pep alone.

[TKnight24]

I'd just like to see Pep actually change it up by not using a Fullback. I really dislike that we take a way a WR and settle for a FB.

If for some reason Pep is dead set on using one (which I think he is) actually throw the ball out of FB sets to "disguise" the offense. I don't know how many times we actually threw the ball in FB sets, but I'd venture to say it was as many as running it.

Honestly lolly, the only play I remember us throwing to the FB was the Spider Y Banana TD to Havili in the Denver game

[MB-ColtsFan]

I'd just like to see Pep actually change it up by not using a Fullback. I really dislike that we take a way a WR and settle for a FB. 

 

If for some reason Pep is dead set on using one (which I think he is) actually throw the ball out of FB sets to "disguise" the offense. I don't know how many times we actually threw the ball in FB sets, but I'd venture to say it was as many as running it. 

I also see no need for a fullback with our personell.  Pep likes to run twin TE sets like he did at Stanford.  Just have Allen line up in a split then bring him

back into the backfield to block for Trent or run play action and become a receiver.  It will show the defense different looks with the same personel on the

field.  I think it's easy to be creative when you've got as much versatility as i perceive we do.  It's just a matter of Pep and Chuck taking advantage of it.

My .02

 

Either way, if (IF!) we can stay away from key injuries we should see this season what we had hoped to see last season: a heavy run game

which will open up the passing game.  I'm really looking forward to training camp!

 

Go Colts.  All day, every day!

[jvan1973]

Honestly lolly, the only play I remember us throwing to the FB was the Spider Y Banana TD to Havili in the Denver game

He caught 18 passes last year

[Jason_]

If you want to debate an issue then an explanation is a good start rather than a plain argumentative comment.

 

plain argumentative comments are all dudeski knows

[BrentMc11]

He caught 18 passes last year

Beat me to it...

 

Dropped a couple of key ones as well.

[BrentMc11]

Time to stop debating and see what the offense can do with 'hopefully' some healthy weapons.

 

In theory we can hit the defense long with TY, Rogers, and maybe Moncrief thrown in there.  We have YAC guys...TY, Rogers, Fleener etc.  All 3 RBs can catch out of the backfield.  Our running game will improve as we get 'locked in'... making for some high scoring affairs. 

 

I honestly think we will be one of the highest scoring teams in the league, and as NewColtsFan said above....Fleener and Allen will be a huge part of it.  TEs are a very good option to 'disguise ' plays.            !!!!

[crazycolt1]

injuries were no reason for pep being horrible at his job. There's nothing to discuss.

So taking a team to a division crown and a playoff win as a rookie coach with an injury riddled team with a whole new offensive system is horrible? You are either way too hard to please or failing to see the Colts as they were.

[TKnight24]

So taking a team to a division crown and a playoff win as a rookie coach with an injury riddled team with a whole new offensive system is horrible? You are either way too hard to please or failing to see the Colts as they were.

Yep,offense carried us for sure. Cause we all know it definitely wasn't our defense doing it.

Hopefully that changes this year though. I'd like to see games where our defense dominates and offense just feeds off of it

[lollygagger8]

Beat me to it...

 

Dropped a couple of key ones as well.

 

That was my next question.....how many drops vs. targets. 

 

 

All I can remember is that pass that hit him square in the hands and bounced off for an INT in the New England playoff game. 

 

[lollygagger8]

I just hope he (or Harvey) actually improves our running gains while lead blocking, because last year was even worse with him in.  

 

 

                  W/ Havili lead blocks                      W/o Havili Lead Blocks                       Total 

 

 

Runs                    105                                            253                                                358           

 

Yards                   371                                          1052                                              1,423

 

Average               3.5                                             4.2                                                  4.0

 

TD's                      4                                                9                                                    13

 

 

http://coltsauthority.com/2014-articles/stanley-havilis-effect-on-the-running-game.html

[Jason_]

That was my next question.....how many drops vs. targets. 

 

 

All I can remember is that pass that hit him square in the hands and bounced off for an INT in the New England playoff game. 

 

 

 

Not one of Luck's more accurate passes.

[dudeski]

So taking a team to a division crown and a playoff win as a rookie coach with an injury riddled team with a whole new offensive system is horrible? You are either way too hard to please or failing to see the Colts as they were.

he was pretty bad. Did you watch them last year

[throwing BBZ]

 I think you want your FB to clean out some holes.

 Our 3 interior lineman were so stinkaroo at run blocking (too) that Havili just wasn`t getting many good opps to get`er done.

 If Harvey can beat him out more power to him because we have to get decent running inside.