grigs cap master?

[OLD FAN MAN]

can grigs become a cap master like the saints loomis, and the bronks Elway, who can fill their rosters with big name players from other teams and still stay within the cap? or will this tactic hurt those teams in the next few years?

[wig]

Capmaster means screwing your future? If so, I hope not.

Pats GM is the cap master. No feelings, no nonsense.

[Gavin]

You can do alot of things if you draft well.....But the cap I believe will eventually catch up with the team, it always catches up with a team no matter what

[BlueShoe]

Grigs did a great job in 2012 with no money to spend. In 2013 he had a ton of money to spend and did not do so well. 

 

I am not complaining; just real about the situation. 

 

I like what we are doing so far in the 2014 off-season. 

 

Grigs will earn "Cap Master", once we have to really pay Luck. Luck will be the highest paid player in football when his rookie deal is up.

[TMPHBITEU]

50/50.

He either can or he can't.

[ColtsLegacy]

can grigs become a cap master like the saints loomis, and the bronks Elway, who can fill their rosters with big name players from other teams and still stay within the cap? or will this tactic hurt those teams in the next few years?

 

The Saints and the Broncos are going to be in cap hell after Brees and Manning are gone.

[ztboiler]

can grigs become a cap master like the saints loomis, and the bronks Elway, who can fill their rosters with big name players from other teams and still stay within the cap? or will this tactic hurt those teams in the next few years?

You are going to have to define that term "cap master" by the outcome that you want and the trade-offs you are willing to make.  Loomis has his team in a very tough cap spot for 2014, a spot that will make it very unlikely for them to win it all from - but they did win a superbowl getting here.  Elway has to push all in for the next 2 years as well, then cash out when Peyton retires - so he'll defer cap hits and take his medicine.  We are in a very different spot as an ascending team, but you can argue that Grigson is showing just as much cap mastery as anyone.

[Nobody]

Gotta agree with the Patriots bit. Hate to make hard decisions but it's part of the business and when a player isn't worth what he'll cost anymore, or there is a younger cheaper option, no matter what he's done, letting him go is best. So far with getting rid of Peyton, Freeney, Bethea, etc. I think that we have a cold blooded GM, in a good way. Makes tough but right choices (usually)

[shakedownstreet]

50/50.

He either can or he can't.

 

such profound insight grasshopper

[TMPHBITEU]

such profound insight grasshopper

I had to look up "grasshopper". Thank you for teaching me a new word.

Oh the irony ;)

[Narcosys]

The Saints and the Broncos are going to be in cap hell after Brees and Manning are gone.

Explain that to me please?   IF manning and brees are gone...then that saves them 20 mil in cap basically.  How is that hell?

[BleedBlu8792]

Explain that to me please?   IF manning and brees are gone...then that saves them 20 mil in cap basically.  How is that hell?

 

Assuming their base salaries for the year are going to be eaten by their teams possibly and that they are two very well paid QB's? I haven't looked into either of their contracts but I'm not quite sure they jump ship on them like we did - say Satele - and just eat ~1MIL in money. I have to assume they are going to eat up more with how they are paid and when they are released. Again, this is just me guessing...

[Mattpara]

Explain that to me please?   IF manning and brees are gone...then that saves them 20 mil in cap basically.  How is that hell?

They'll essentially have a heap of cap taken up by dead money from cuts as signing bonus money counting from previous years. They'll have no QB and a heap of expensive, over the hill players and not much cap room to be able to get those players off the books and get a decent replacement for them. They'll need to draft extremely well to be able to get through this period without having to go through a major rebuild.

[Narcosys]

Assuming their base salaries for the year are going to be eaten by their teams possibly and that they are two very well paid QB's? I haven't looked into either of their contracts but I'm not quite sure they jump ship on them like we did - say Satele - and just eat ~1MIL in money. I have to assume they are going to eat up more with how they are paid and when they are released. Again, this is just me guessing...

whens their contracts expire. Manning may retire before his ends.

[Narcosys]

They'll essentially have a heap of cap taken up by dead money from cuts as signing bonus money counting from previous years. They'll have no QB and a heap of expensive, over the hill players and not much cap room to be able to get those players off the books and get a decent replacement for them. They'll need to draft extremely well to be able to get through this period without having to go through a major rebuild.

thats assuming they are cut. He said when they are gone. Meaning their contracts have run out.

[P-Money]

Grigs did a great job in 2012 with no money to spend. In 2013 he had a ton of money to spend and did not do so well.

I am not complaining; just real about the situation.

I like what we are doing so far in the 2014 off-season.

Grigs will earn "Cap Master", once we have to really pay Luck. Luck will be the highest paid player in football when his rookie deal is up.

Please explain your logic with Luck being the highest paid player in the NFL when it's time to resign. I love the guy for what he's gave us to this point but to pay him some crazy amount of cash for what he's done so far and considering he puts up the same numbers this year is just plain asinine. Russell Wilson deserves more money than Luck at this point and you can't argue that.

[sweetsurrender]

can grigs become a cap master like the saints loomis, and the bronks Elway, who can fill their rosters with big name players from other teams and still stay within the cap? or will this tactic hurt those teams in the next few years?

The Broncos will be in rebuild mode once Peyton retires. A true cap master manages the cap in the short AND long term. Colts are doing just fine. This off-season is huge though. Need to hit on the draft big time.

[lollygagger8]

I thought Pete Ward was our "cap master". 

[Valpo2004]

Grigs did a great job in 2012 with no money to spend. In 2013 he had a ton of money to spend and did not do so well. 

 

I am not complaining; just real about the situation. 

 

I like what we are doing so far in the 2014 off-season. 

 

Grigs will earn "Cap Master", once we have to really pay Luck. Luck will be the highest paid player in football when his rookie deal is up.

 

I don't know about the highest paid but Luck's gonna see a big contract.  So that's when we will really see how good Grigs is at managing the cap when he's saddled with a 20+ million dollar cap hit every year for just one player.

 

That having been said the cap is increasing so therefore the % of the cap that QB's take is decreasing.  I hope it doesn't increase again.  

[Mattpara]

thats assuming they are cut. He said when they are gone. Meaning their contracts have run out.

No, what i'm saying is (without seeing the exact contract details) that the broncos most likely handed out big signing bonuses to be able afford these big contracts in the first place. So even if these players don't deteriorate enough to get cut for their presumably high salaries towards the end of their contracts, the total cap hit from their signing bonuses plus their salaries will be quite hefty. This will restrict their ability to re-sign their own players in the future ( Von Miller, possibly even Brock Osweiler?) and force them to make very tough decisions. Unless one can draft extremely well, there will undoubtedly be positions lacking talent and depth that they cannot afford to fix.

Thus, 'cap hell'

[theanarchist]

You can do alot of things if you draft well.....But the cap I believe will eventually catch up with the team, it always catches up with a team no matter what

Agree. Have to build through the draft. Giving a huge contracts to UFA every year will catch up to you. These last 2 years we've thrown a lot of $ around but as you started to see this year more of that $ went to sign our own instead of giving it to players from other teams. So, I think the Free Agent frenzy of the last 2 years won't be there for us in the next few years because the cap $ will be spent on guys like Costanzo, Luck, Hilton, Allen and Fleener etc. That's why its so important to hit on your draft picks who can come in and start or give quality snaps but living off their affordable rookie contract.

[ColtsLegacy]

Explain that to me please? IF manning and brees are gone...then that saves them 20 mil in cap basically. How is that hell?

They won't be in "cap hell" do to losing Brees and Manning, that's just the time frame I expect.

They'll be there because both teams are spending willy nilly and majorly back loading contracts in an attempt to win while they have elite QBs. Especially the Saints with the recent Byrd signing and the likely billion dollars coming to Jimmy Graham.

Here's a tweet that sums it up with some levity:

https://twitter.com/Cianaf/status/443565580013273088?screen_name=Cianaf

[Superman]

They won't be in "cap hell" do to losing Brees and Manning, that's just the time frame I expect.

They'll be there because both teams are spending willy nilly and majorly back loading contracts in an attempt to win while they have elite QBs. Especially the Saints with the recent Byrd signing and the likely billion dollars coming to Jimmy Graham.

Here's a tweet that sums it up with some levity:

https://twitter.com/Cianaf/status/443565580013273088?screen_name=Cianaf

 

The Broncos actually are NOT backloading contracts. They can terminate any of these contracts after a year or two -- including Manning -- with little dead money. The are taking a pay-as-you-go approach to all of their big money contracts.

 

The Saints, on the other hand, are heavily backloading deals, and are giving big future salary guarantees. Two completely different approaches, and you'll continue to see the Saints push cap hits into the future, and then have to purge good players later on like the Cowboys are doing now.

 

As an example, compare the contracts for Talib and Byrd. Basically the same money, reported with the same amount of guarantees, but Talib's contract is easier to navigate in the future, even though his cap hit is twice as high in Year 1.

[ColtsLegacy]

The Broncos actually are NOT backloading contracts. They can terminate any of these contracts after a year or two -- including Manning -- with little dead money. The are taking a pay-as-you-go approach to all of their big money contracts.

The Saints, on the other hand, are heavily backloading deals, and are giving big future salary guarantees. Two completely different approaches, and you'll continue to see the Saints push cap hits into the future, and then have to purge good players later on like the Cowboys are doing now.

As an example, compare the contracts for Talib and Byrd. Basically the same money, reported with the same amount of guarantees, but Talib's contract is easier to navigate in the future, even though his cap hit is twice as high in Year 1.

Ah, ok. I wasn't sure about the Broncos but I just figured they had to be back loading in order to make all these big signings. Thanks for the info.

[Mameluc]

The Saints and the Broncos are going to be in cap hell after Brees and Manning are gone.

wouldnt it be the oposite? cause they have like 20 millions free the momenty they are gone?

 

im seriously asking not being a *. dont understand why would they bee in cap hell.

 

 

never mind, i just saw your post after you posted this

 

I agree with superman, i dont think the broncos are mortgaging their future. they are doing most of their contracts frontloaded, they shouldnt be in cap hell cause they can terminate any contract with minimal cap hit. Also, most of the cap will be payed in the first 2-3 years of the players contract.

[Superman]

Ah, ok. I wasn't sure about the Broncos but I just figured they had to be back loading in order to make all these big signings. Thanks for the info.

 

Yeah, a lot of people assumed that the Broncos didn't have a lot of cap space, but after releasing Champ Bailey, they had something like $25m to work with. Ware counts for $9.6m, Talib is $7.9m, and Ward is $3.25m. All three of them received $5m signing bonuses, so there's not a lot of penalty if they're released in future years. So they've used about $21m in cap space on those three players, whose contracts average about $24-25m/year. Slightly backloaded, but with increasing salaries, which is okay because the cap is going up.

 

So they're left with just over $5m in 2014 cap space, according to Spotrac, and they still haven't done anything with Jacob Tamme or Joel Dreesen. Their cap number in 2015 is projected to be $92m (probably closer to $100m by the time they break camp). If the cap stays at $133m, they'll have $33m in cap space next year again, because of the pay-as-you-go structure of their contracts. That leaves them plenty of room to retain Demaryius Thomas, Julius Thomas, and Von Miller.

 

The Broncos are okay, cap wise, because they aren't using big signing bonuses to postpone big cap hits. Can't say the same for the Saints.

[Patagonia Chris]

Grigs did a great job in 2012 with no money to spend. In 2013 he had a ton of money to spend and did not do so well. 

 

I am not complaining; just real about the situation. 

 

I like what we are doing so far in the 2014 off-season. 

 

Grigs will earn "Cap Master", once we have to really pay Luck. Luck will be the highest paid player in football when his rookie deal is up.

 

While his signings from last season haven't really lived up to their deals, if you look at the financials of those contracts all of those players can be cut without putting very much dead money on the Colts. I think if Landry, Thomas and Toler are all cut after the season it'd save the Colts like 10-13 Mil in cap space while accumulating only 1 Mil in dead cap space. So while Grigson may not be a "Cap Master", whatever that means, I think he has shown some savvy the last two off-seasons by the way he has structured contracts and approached free agency.

[el duderino]

... I think he has shown some savvy the last two off-seasons by the way he has structured contracts and approached free agency.

 

agree!

[azcolt]

He seems to have free agency process figured out, now if he can only figure out how to pull off a big trade without getting fleeced.

[Coltscek]

Compare our salaries with the broncos. You will see that we have way too many salaries above 4 mil. Denver has maybe 20 percent as many as we have.

[Coltscek]

Actually most recent....colts 12 salaries 4 mil and over, broncos 5.

[Coltscek]

So now, let's talk about Capmaster!

[Superman]

Compare our salaries with the broncos. You will see that we have way too many salaries above 4 mil. Denver has maybe 20 percent as many as we have.

 

 

Actually most recent....colts 12 salaries 4 mil and over, broncos 5.

 

Why is that relevant?

 

Also, you should look at the percentage of their cap that their top five salaries take, compared to the percentage of cap our top 12 take. I get the feeling they're going to be pretty close.

 

Edit: I just went and checked for myself, and I don't think your breakdown is accurate. According to Spotrac, the Colts have 10 players right now with a yearly average of $4m or more (remove Trent Richardson from the top 11, because we're only paying his base). Those 10 contracts average about $64m/year. The Broncos have 7 players with a yearly average of $4m or more, and those 7 contracts average about $65m/year. 

[throwing BBZ]

Compare our salaries with the broncos. You will see that we have way too many salaries above 4 mil. Denver has maybe 20 percent as many as we have.

 

 I see your point as having NOTHING to do with the CAP.

 You are talking about Roster Mngmt. lol

[theanarchist]

Agree. Have to build through the draft. Giving a huge contracts to UFA every year will catch up to you. These last 2 years we've thrown a lot of $ around but as you started to see this year more of that $ went to sign our own instead of giving it to players from other teams. So, I think the Free Agent frenzy of the last 2 years won't be there for us in the next few years because the cap $ will be spent on guys like Costanzo, Luck, Hilton, Allen and Fleener etc. That's why its so important to hit on your draft picks who can come in and start or give quality snaps but living off their affordable rookie contract.

How could I forget Freeman...he'll deserve a nice contract coming up as well. So, there is going to be a huge amount of money spent on all those guys over the next 2 years. Luck's contract will likely be a record setter, Castanzo will expect to get similar or slightly better than what Cherilus got, Freeman will expect Jackson type $ and Hilton will be very hot commodity if he stays healthy. Every team wants a receiver who can stretch the field. Jim's checkbook is going to get a workout.

[Coltscek]

My point is look who is getting the bigger bucks between the two teams and you will see we give too much cap money to middle of the road players. That my friends is * poor cap management. Maybe the problem is no one wants to go to Indy, I don't know, but what I do know is the cap master pays too much for average talent!

[Superman]

My point is look who is getting the bigger bucks between the two teams and you will see we give too much cap money to middle of the road players. That my friends is * poor cap management. Maybe the problem is no one wants to go to Indy, I don't know, but what I do know is the cap master pays too much for average talent!

 

So you picked an arbitrary number to distinguish what "bigger bucks" is, then make a big deal about the averages per year, without regard for the structure of the contracts given.

 

I don't think there's anything wrong with the way Grigson has structured his contracts, or the amount of money he's offered the players he's signed. The team has a TON of cap flexibility moving forward.

[BlueShoe]

Please explain your logic with Luck being the highest paid player in the NFL when it's time to resign. I love the guy for what he's gave us to this point but to pay him some crazy amount of cash for what he's done so far and considering he puts up the same numbers this year is just plain asinine. Russell Wilson deserves more money than Luck at this point and you can't argue that.

 

Logic:

 

If every player in the NFL was a free agent today, who would be the first player on every teams list to sign?

 

If you answer is not Andrew Luck then please explain your logic.

 

Luck will be the highest paid player in the league, because the market says he should be.

 

And by the way; I did not realize that Russell Wilson took a 2-14 team that was in cap **** to the playoffs twice and won 11 games back-to-back with said team. Oh yeah, that is because he didn't. No first pick in NFL history has ever done that; before Andrew Luck. 

[BlueShoe]

While his signings from last season haven't really lived up to their deals, if you look at the financials of those contracts all of those players can be cut without putting very much dead money on the Colts. I think if Landry, Thomas and Toler are all cut after the season it'd save the Colts like 10-13 Mil in cap space while accumulating only 1 Mil in dead cap space. So while Grigson may not be a "Cap Master", whatever that means, I think he has shown some savvy the last two off-seasons by the way he has structured contracts and approached free agency.

 

I agree that the contracts were good for us (given our current situation). It is harder to get away with that when we have a 20 million dollar (per year) player though, and we will have that soon enough. The players brought in in 2013, now that is a different story. 

 

We have to give credit for the good and the bad. The bad was that Griggs has missed on some free agents. The good is that he had an incredible 2012 draft. Even if we take Luck out of the 2012 draft class and off-season, Griggs did an awesome job. 

 

The good news is that Griggs had some room for failure in 2013; which will only make him a better decision maker down the road. Experience is supposed to do that for all of us. Overall, I am very pleased with what he has done with the Colts. That said, I don't believe he made every perfect move, because I am realistic. Not many come close to perfection. I am paying very close attention to what he does this off-season; because to me that will show how he reacts under adversity. 

 

Great signings and draft in 2012 (considering the hole he was in), followed up by a not-so-good 2013 (with tons to spend). 2014 is here, and I am looking forward to Griggs knocking it out of the park. 

[Superman]

Logic:

 

If every player in the NFL was a free agent today, who would be the first player on every teams list to sign?

 

If you answer is not Andrew Luck then please explain your logic.

 

Luck will be the highest paid player in the league, because the market says he should be.

 

And by the way; I did not realize that Russell Wilson took a 2-14 team that was in cap **** to the playoffs twice and won 11 games back-to-back with said team. Oh yeah, that is because he didn't. No first pick in NFL history has ever done that; before Andrew Luck. 

 

I understand your logic, and agree with it. But Luck wouldn't be #1 on that list. That would be Aaron Rodgers, followed by Drew Brees, Peyton Manning and Tom Brady, in some order. Luck would probably be 5th.