The Patriot Way

[Smonroe]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that the Patriots have had stellar offensive lines the entire time Brady has been there.

 

In those years, they started out as a run the ball team, morphed into a passing team, a WR team, a TE team, and this year a great short yardage running/passing team.

 

We shouldn't be concerned about being a "Run the Ball" team.  We should be concerned about getting a great O line, even if it means overpaying FAs and/or picking the best O linemen even before their projected rounds.

 

If the core is strong, like the Patriots, and we have a great QB, we can be anything we want and adapt to the strengths that the skill players bring. 

[Flash7]

I completely agree. Having a strong O-line allows your offense to do whatever it wants.

 

As far as offense is concerned, this has to be our #1 priority and must be addressed completely. I know that it was thought initially that we had addressed the O-line this past year, but we had no depth in case of injuries, or in case the acquisitions didn't work out as planned. Let's take care of this issue and the offense will be fine.

[Moose Of Woe]

O-line, QB, receivers/backs. That's how you build an offense.

 

Not to say any one individual O-lineman is more important than the QB, but as a combined unit they certainly are. If you give a QB all day to throw plays will open up. Unless that QB absolutely stinks having 5-6+ seconds to throw makes all the difference in the world.

 

We already have a QB and some decent receivers. One great one when healthy. (Hopefully he doesn't drop off post-injury, Reggie is getting up there in age.) Our primary need on offense is solely offensive line and has been for years. Our backs are fine and hampered by said line just like our QB.

[Smonroe]

To be more clear, I'm advocating paying for a stellar O line over every other position (except QB).

 

So, when Allen, Coby, TY, and others contracts all come up, we should prioritize the O linemen over them.  Sign who we can without going cheap on the O line.

 

Ensure we keep the core strong because we can always fill in the other spots.  My example was when we had to choose between Lilja and Scott.  Ideally, we should have kept them both and let guys like Hayden go.

[Moose Of Woe]

To be more clear, I'm advocating paying for a stellar O line over every other position (except QB).

 

So, when Allen, Coby, TY, and others contracts all come up, we should prioritize the O linemen over them. 

 

 

I'd take the greatest O-line in football over your typical good QB. Guys like Brady/Brees/Manning/Rodgahs/ maybe Luck are a rare exception to the rule.

 

And yes we should absolutely prioritize our line over our receivers.

[Guest TeamLoloJones]

To be more clear, I'm advocating paying for a stellar O line over every other position (except QB).

 

So, when Allen, Coby, TY, and others contracts all come up, we should prioritize the O linemen over them.  Sign who we can without going cheap on the O line.

 

Ensure we keep the core strong because we can always fill in the other spots.  My example was when we had to choose between Lilja and Scott.  Ideally, we should have kept them both and let guys like Hayden go.

I get what you are saying.  But I think keeping the core group of Luck, Allen, Fleener, and Hilton all together for the next 6-7 years would be as vital as anything for this team's long term success.

[Moose Of Woe]

Offense aside, I think we need to field a defense that doesn't surrender 40+ points at the drop of a hat a lot more than anything else.

[ÅÐØNϧ 1]

The Patriots way ? wrong forum

 

With 40.1 million under the cap we'll do it the Grigson way  on both sides of the line .

[braveheartcolt]

O-line, QB, receivers/backs. That's how you build an offense.

 

Not to say any one individual O-lineman is more important than the QB, but as a combined unit they certainly are. If you give a QB all day to throw plays will open up. Unless that QB absolutely stinks having 5-6+ seconds to throw makes all the difference in the world.

 

We already have a QB and some decent receivers. One great one when healthy. (Hopefully he doesn't drop off post-injury, Reggie is getting up there in age.) Our primary need on offense is solely offensive line and has been for years. Our backs are fine and hampered by said line just like our QB.

I get what you are saying, and kind of agree, although I do think that you have a better chance of winning a SB with a great QB and crap O-Line, rather than the other way around. Unlikely to win multiple titles, but possible. Didn't the Packers have a porous O-Line when they won it all a few years back?

 

But anyway, your point is well made.

[Smonroe]

The Patriots way ? wrong forum

 

With 40.1 million under the cap we'll do it the Grigson way  on both sides of the line .

 

Don't forget we have to re-sign our guys, or at least replace the ones we let go.  That 40M number isn't realistic, as in - we're not going to go out and get 4 big name FAs.

[Smonroe]

I get what you are saying, and kind of agree, although I do think that you have a better chance of winning a SB with a great QB and crap O-Line, rather than the other way around. Unlikely to win multiple titles, but possible. Didn't the Packers have a porous O-Line when they won it all a few years back?

 

But anyway, your point is well made.

 

I understand.  Yes, the Packers O line wasn't great.  Heck the Colts O line was pretty bad in 09 and we made it to the SB. 

 

Those are anomalies, and depend on a great QBs making it work.

 

I know you understand my point - that we can 'go with the flow' as far as which skill players we want to sign, as long as we have a great core O line and Luck as a QB.  I called it 'The Patriot Way' because they showed that it even works with the mediocre talent they had this year.

[lollygagger8]

You would think O-Line would be the first thing Grigson fixes.....considering it's our biggest need, and he used to be a O-Lineman. <- You'd think he'd be stellar at picking O-lineman out. 

[Stephen]

Online and d line. Those six rushing Touchdowns versus patriots was embarrassing

[tfunky14]

The Patriot way = losing in the big game

[-JJ-]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that the Patriots have had stellar offensive lines the entire time Brady has been there.

 

In those years, they started out as a run the ball team, morphed into a passing team, a WR team, a TE team, and this year a great short yardage running/passing team.

 

We shouldn't be concerned about being a "Run the Ball" team.  We should be concerned about getting a great O line, even if it means overpaying FAs and/or picking the best O linemen even before their projected rounds.

 

If the core is strong, like the Patriots, and we have a great QB, we can be anything we want and adapt to the strengths that the skill players bring. 

Actually it's more the Oline coach. Some good players but plenty off the street players too. What he does plugging holes is pretty amazing. Just lucky to have that coach- Dante

[Blueblazes]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that the Patriots have had stellar offensive lines the entire time Brady has been there.

 

In those years, they started out as a run the ball team, morphed into a passing team, a WR team, a TE team, and this year a great short yardage running/passing team.

 

We shouldn't be concerned about being a "Run the Ball" team.  We should be concerned about getting a great O line, even if it means overpaying FAs and/or picking the best O linemen even before their projected rounds.

 

If the core is strong, like the Patriots, and we have a great QB, we can be anything we want and adapt to the strengths that the skill players bring. 

You, my friend, have hit the nail on the football head. The O-line makes the team go. It is not just the old axiom, but it is the way the game is played today as well. I have wondered why a proverbial genius such as Polian did not realize that. But that's a debate for another thread. But yes, the O line not only does the obvious which is creating holes for runners, but creating time for the QB is the secret to a prolific passing game. Watch Brady and you will see he has about 4-5 seconds each time he drops back. (In fact a study was done during the '10 season that showed Peyton took 2.6 seconds on average to pass the ball and Brady has 4.6 seconds on average that year). Notice what Peyton can do with an extra second or 2 to throw it in Denver. He's destructive to defenses to say the least. O lines even affect the defense in that they wear down defenses as well as paving the way for the offense. A day fighting a physical Logan Mankins totally wears down a D lineman so much more than a day fighting one of our ''quick guards'' of the previous administration. But yes, in summary, you have found the answer to the puzzle.

[Coffeedrinker]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that the Patriots have had stellar offensive lines the entire time Brady has been there.

 

In those years, they started out as a run the ball team, morphed into a passing team, a WR team, a TE team, and this year a great short yardage running/passing team.

 

We shouldn't be concerned about being a "Run the Ball" team.  We should be concerned about getting a great O line, even if it means overpaying FAs and/or picking the best O linemen even before their projected rounds.

 

If the core is strong, like the Patriots, and we have a great QB, we can be anything we want and adapt to the strengths that the skill players bring. 

You make a good point about the Patriots line.  But they have not built their line by overpaying for FA.  Nor was their line this year made up of all high draft picks.  Solder and Mankins were 1st rounders but their center was an undrafted free agent, the guard was an undrafted FA of Jax before the Pats signed him to their practice squad and the RT was a 5th round pick.(Vollmer the starting RT before injury was a 2nd round pick).  The only one of those players that was drafted "early" was Mankins but not that much, he was considered an early 2nd round, they took him at the end of the 1st.

 

I agree an awesome line is the way to go but the way to build a good line is simply (but very difficult) to find good players and then let them play together.  Howard Mudd was great at this he had a 1st rounder in Glenn and a 2nd rounder in Meadows for a while but the best line the Colts had was Glenn (1st) DeMulling (7th) Saturday (UDFA) Scott (5th) and Diem (4th).

 

If it was as easy at throwing money at free agents then every team would have an awesome line or Olineman would be the highest paid players in the NFL.

[Coffeedrinker]

You, my friend, have hit the nail on the football head. The O-line makes the team go. It is not just the old axiom, but it is the way the game is played today as well. I have wondered why a proverbial genius such as Polian did not realize that. But that's a debate for another thread. But yes, the O line not only does the obvious which is creating holes for runners, but creating time for the QB is the secret to a prolific passing game. Watch Brady and you will see he has about 4-5 seconds each time he drops back. (In fact a study was done during the '10 season that showed Peyton took 2.6 seconds on average to pass the ball and Brady has 4.6 seconds on average that year). Notice what Peyton can do with an extra second or 2 to throw it in Denver. He's destructive to defenses to say the least. O lines even affect the defense in that they wear down defenses as well as paving the way for the offense. A day fighting a physical Logan Mankins totally wears down a D lineman so much more than a day fighting one of our ''quick guards'' of the previous administration. But yes, in summary, you have found the answer to the puzzle.

Your numbers are not accurate at all.  Here is a PFF Signature Stat article from 2012  This shows Tom Brady, on average gets rid of the ball in 2.49 seconds and it takes, on average, 3.26 seconds to sack him. 

 

Perhaps someone can who subscribes to PFF can find their stats for this year and maybe in 2010.  That stat actually shows that for most QBs they get less accurate if they hold the ball longer than 2.5 seconds. 

 

here's another article from this year that shows Brady only had 29 drop backs of which he held the ball 4 seconds or more.

[Moose Of Woe]

I get what you are saying, and kind of agree, although I do think that you have a better chance of winning a SB with a great QB and crap O-Line, rather than the other way around. Unlikely to win multiple titles, but possible. Didn't the Packers have a porous O-Line when they won it all a few years back?

 

 

Right on with the Packers. Like I said in this thread there are a few great QB's who would be an exception to the rule including RODGAHS.

"I'd take the greatest O-line in football over your typical good QB. Guys like Brady/Brees/Manning/Rodgahs maybe Luck are a rare exception to the rule."

 

For the vast majority of QB's, including some pretty darn good ones, I'd rather have a great line instead of them.

[dudeski]

I get what you are saying. But I think keeping the core group of Luck, Allen, Fleener, and Hilton all together for the next 6-7 years would be as vital as anything for this team's long term success.

i think fleener is the 1 out if those I wouldn't worry about. Overall I agree though

[BOTT]

Actually it's more the Oline coach. Some good players but plenty off the street players too. What he does plugging holes is pretty amazing. Just lucky to have that coach- Dante

Unfortunately for the Pats, Dante retired today.

[Smonroe]

You make a good point about the Patriots line.  But they have not built their line by overpaying for FA.  Nor was their line this year made up of all high draft picks.  Solder and Mankins were 1st rounders but their center was an undrafted free agent, the guard was an undrafted FA of Jax before the Pats signed him to their practice squad and the RT was a 5th round pick.(Vollmer the starting RT before injury was a 2nd round pick).  The only one of those players that was drafted "early" was Mankins but not that much, he was considered an early 2nd round, they took him at the end of the 1st.

 

I agree an awesome line is the way to go but the way to build a good line is simply (but very difficult) to find good players and then let them play together.  Howard Mudd was great at this he had a 1st rounder in Glenn and a 2nd rounder in Meadows for a while but the best line the Colts had was Glenn (1st) DeMulling (7th) Saturday (UDFA) Scott (5th) and Diem (4th).

 

If it was as easy at throwing money at free agents then every team would have an awesome line or Olineman would be the highest paid players in the NFL.

I think the second highest paid Patriot is an O lineman, but I get your point. I'm saying get them in every and any way possible. Overpay for a guy like Mack, and 'over draft' by picking the best O linemen available with our highest pick. I know it's not easy but there's a better chance of getting quality players doing that than drafting them late and hope they work out.

The point of this thread is that with a great O line and a great QB, you can change your style to adapt to the best skill players you have. Like the Pats did with the WR team, the TE team, and the run heavy teams.

Obviously it's not that simple, and some guys don't work out. But I'd rather put money on O in the core than give just about any guy except Luck a big second contract that forces the team to cut corners by going with cheap linemen.

[OLD FAN MAN]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that the Patriots have had stellar offensive lines the entire time Brady has been there.

 

In those years, they started out as a run the ball team, morphed into a passing team, a WR team, a TE team, and this year a great short yardage running/passing team.

 

We shouldn't be concerned about being a "Run the Ball" team.  We should be concerned about getting a great O line, even if it means overpaying FAs and/or picking the best O linemen even before their projected rounds.

 

If the core is strong, like the Patriots, and we have a great QB, we can be anything we want and adapt to the strengths that the skill players bring. 

great post. I totally agree.

[Le Neon]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that the Patriots have had stellar offensive lines the entire time Brady has been there.

In those years, they started out as a run the ball team, morphed into a passing team, a WR team, a TE team, and this year a great short yardage running/passing team.

We shouldn't be concerned about being a "Run the Ball" team. We should be concerned about getting a great O line, even if it means overpaying FAs and/or picking the best O linemen even before their projected rounds.

If the core is strong, like the Patriots, and we have a great QB, we can be anything we want and adapt to the strengths that the skill players bring.

I hope we try to win the bidding war for either Mack or La Puente. A better interior line helps our offense on so many levels, we need to find an anchor.

[Horse Shoe Heaven]

To be more clear, I'm advocating paying for a stellar O line over every other position (except QB).

 

So, when Allen, Coby, TY, and others contracts all come up, we should prioritize the O linemen over them.  Sign who we can without going cheap on the O line.

 

Ensure we keep the core strong because we can always fill in the other spots.  My example was when we had to choose between Lilja and Scott.  Ideally, we should have kept them both and let guys like Hayden go.

That was imposable at the time & Hayden was good, I liked Lilja an Scott, but honestly Scott IMO was the better of the 2.

[Horse Shoe Heaven]

You make a good point about the Patriots line.  But they have not built their line by overpaying for FA.  Nor was their line this year made up of all high draft picks.  Solder and Mankins were 1st rounders but their center was an undrafted free agent, the guard was an undrafted FA of Jax before the Pats signed him to their practice squad and the RT was a 5th round pick.(Vollmer the starting RT before injury was a 2nd round pick).  The only one of those players that was drafted "early" was Mankins but not that much, he was considered an early 2nd round, they took him at the end of the 1st.

 

I agree an awesome line is the way to go but the way to build a good line is simply (but very difficult) to find good players and then let them play together.  Howard Mudd was great at this he had a 1st rounder in Glenn and a 2nd rounder in Meadows for a while but the best line the Colts had was Glenn (1st) DeMulling (7th) Saturday (UDFA) Scott (5th) and Diem (4th).

 

If it was as easy at throwing money at free agents then every team would have an awesome line or Olineman would be the highest paid players in the NFL.

Coffee is right most of their line over the years where built with free agents & lower rd guys. Mankins was not considered a first RD pick & Wendell the center both played a Fresno State. I live in Fresno Pat Hill coached with Bellick in Cleveland & are Friends Hill turned Bellecik on to  both of them! Maybe New England is just better at evaluating OLmen?

[RomanianColtsFan]

Patriots also had a great OL coach in Dante Scarnecchia who's been with them for 30 years, a true legend. He just announced that he is retiring by the way, a big loss for them. In fact the Pats are losing other coaches but that's for another topic. I think we shouldn't underestimate the role of a great OL coach.

I liked Gregg Easterbrook's observation that if you look at Patriots' linemen during a game you rarely see one that stands around and does nothing while the ball is still in play (Satele, anyone?) and that's a clear sign of great coaching.

[Moose Of Woe]

The loss of the Pats O-line coach "might" be huge. We'll see.

[No 1 Manning Fan]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that the Patriots have had stellar offensive lines the entire time Brady has been there.

In those years, they started out as a run the ball team, morphed into a passing team, a WR team, a TE team, and this year a great short yardage running/passing team.

We shouldn't be concerned about being a "Run the Ball" team. We should be concerned about getting a great O line, even if it means overpaying FAs and/or picking the best O linemen even before their projected rounds.

If the core is strong, like the Patriots, and we have a great QB, we can be anything we want and adapt to the strengths that the skill players bring.

I agree with everything except overpaying FAs. No thanks. We overpaid players for years and the team imploded. That's why so manny wanted Polian gone.

[lollygagger8]

Actually it's more the Oline coach. Some good players but plenty off the street players too. What he does plugging holes is pretty amazing. Just lucky to have that coach- Dante

 

If it was all the o-line coach, then someone would've picked him off their coaching squad by now. 

[Coffeedrinker]

I think the second highest paid Patriot is an O lineman, but I get your point. I'm saying get them in every and any way possible. Overpay for a guy like Mack, and 'over draft' by picking the best O linemen available with our highest pick. I know it's not easy but there's a better chance of getting quality players doing that than drafting them late and hope they work out.

The point of this thread is that with a great O line and a great QB, you can change your style to adapt to the best skill players you have. Like the Pats did with the WR team, the TE team, and the run heavy teams.

Obviously it's not that simple, and some guys don't work out. But I'd rather put money on O in the core than give just about any guy except Luck a big second contract that forces the team to cut corners by going with cheap linemen.

I completely agree with your premise, that a strong oline is key to a successful team.  I just don't think overpaying in FA is the way to get there.  Overdrafting, I don't have a problem with, IMO, you draft a guy when his value coincides with the pick and further IMO I think need has to be a factor in value.

[Smash Mouth]

I completely agree with your premise, that a strong oline is key to a successful team.  I just don't think overpaying in FA is the way to get there.  Overdrafting, I don't have a problem with, IMO, you draft a guy when his value coincides with the pick and further IMO I think need has to be a factor in value.

I agree with not over paying in FA.  Overpaying seems to be an inherent part of FA.  The Colts have a draft day problem of not having enough picks though.  Grigson has miscalculated on these trades and put himself in a bind this year.  Grigson can't afford to break the bank this off season because Luck's contract up in 2015.  The Patriot Way is to stock pile picks - I like that approach with sprinkling in a few FAs

[Smonroe]

I agree with not over paying in FA.  Overpaying seems to be an inherent part of FA.  The Colts have a draft day problem of not having enough picks though.  Grigson has miscalculated on these trades and put himself in a bind this year.  Grigson can't afford to break the bank this off season because Luck's contract up in 2015.  The Patriot Way is to stock pile picks - I like that approach with sprinkling in a few FAs

Yeah, obviously we'd love to find great O lineman in the later rounds of the draft. We'd love to win the lottery too.

You said it best, by definition you overpay for just about any good free agents. We may not like it but it's necessary. I hope we're the highest bidder for Mack. I'd love to see another FA G so at worst Thorton is depth. Do we really know that Thomas has the endurance to play start entire season?

Anyway, it's still my opinion - get the best FA C and maybe another mid/upper level G, and use our first draft pick on the best O lineman available.

[-JJ-]

Unfortunately for the Pats, Dante retired today.

did he? well there went the neighborhood.

[IkeAramba]

I agree with not over paying in FA.  Overpaying seems to be an inherent part of FA.  The Colts have a draft day problem of not having enough picks though.  Grigson has miscalculated on these trades and put himself in a bind this year.  Grigson can't afford to break the bank this off season because Luck's contract up in 2015.  The Patriot Way is to stock pile picks - I like that approach with sprinkling in a few FAs

Agree about overpaying being an inherent part of free agency.  If the player is talented and the price is right teams will normally find a way of keeping their players.  That leaves players that aren't very good, players that want too much money and the group that should be targeted - those who either didn't fit their previous scheme or were buried on a depth chart and didn't get to see much action.  

 

Every year some team spends big in free agency, they get lauded in the press as offseason champions but normally they end up picking in the top 10 in the draft the next year as the players signed aren't as good as advertised.

[amfootball]

The pats have always built their teams from the lines out since Belichick. Every year in the draft he takes OL and DL in the top rounds and gets criticized for it until the season begins and you see the dividends that its pays. It is the most realistic way to build a team as without good Line play you are toast. I don't care who the skill players or the QB. I do think Brady makes it easier for Bill to draft that way because he can make the offense go with pretty much any guys in there. Even this year with all the changes the Pats O still ranked 3 in points scored.

[cdgacoltsfan]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that the Patriots have had stellar offensive lines the entire time Brady has been there.

 

In those years, they started out as a run the ball team, morphed into a passing team, a WR team, a TE team, and this year a great short yardage running/passing team.

 

We shouldn't be concerned about being a "Run the Ball" team.  We should be concerned about getting a great O line, even if it means overpaying FAs and/or picking the best O linemen even before their projected rounds.

 

If the core is strong, like the Patriots, and we have a great QB, we can be anything we want and adapt to the strengths that the skill players bring. 

The Patriot way= *

[Smonroe]

The pats have always built their teams from the lines out since Belichick. Every year in the draft he takes OL and DL in the top rounds and gets criticized for it until the season begins and you see the dividends that its pays. It is the most realistic way to build a team as without good Line play you are toast. I don't care who the skill players or the QB. I do think Brady makes it easier for Bill to draft that way because he can make the offense go with pretty much any guys in there. Even this year with all the changes the Pats O still ranked 3 in points scored.

Right. The poiint I'm trying to make isn't another "we need a good O line" thread. It's that IF we have that great O line, we can be any type of team we want to be. Everyone wants to keep all of our young players when their contracts come up, but it's not going to happen.

If we have Luck behind a great line we can play to whatever strength our skill players bring.

People hate it when we pay the Patriots any compliments here. That's understandable. Yet, no one can doubt how successful they've been with that formula.

[amfootball]

Right. The poiint I'm trying to make isn't another "we need a good O line" thread. It's that IF we have that great O line, we can be any type of team we want to be. Everyone wants to keep all of our young players when their contracts come up, but it's not going to happen.

If we have Luck behind a great line we can play to whatever strength our skill players bring.

People hate it when we pay the Patriots any compliments here. That's understandable. Yet, no one can doubt how successful they've been with that formula.

It is not just the Oline that makes the Pats so versatile though. Their Oline play was not very good this year compared to their normal standards due to injuries and the fact that Brady was holding the ball longer given all the new WRs he had to work with. What makes them so versatile is the combo of skill players that can do more than one thing. Gronk is a great example. Not only is he a great pass catching TE, he is also a stud blocker which helps the run game. Julianne Edelman lined up this year 49 percent as slot receiver and 51 as an outside receiver giving the Pats O different options of hitting him over the middle or outside the numbers. Shane Vareen is a pass catching RB who has blazing speed so he can like up pretty much anywhere from backfield, to slot to out wide. It is the versatility of the skill players along with the Oline and of course Brady that makes the Pats O so dynamic and chameleon like year to year.

[Superman]

I completely agree with your premise, that a strong oline is key to a successful team.  I just don't think overpaying in FA is the way to get there.  Overdrafting, I don't have a problem with, IMO, you draft a guy when his value coincides with the pick and further IMO I think need has to be a factor in value.

 

Some say the Pats overdrafted Solder. The Cowboys supposedly overdrafted Frederick. But when you get it right, no one cares. And like you said, the Pats have built their line through the draft, then retained those players. Not gone out and spent money on guys.

 

Where I differ with you is specifically with regard to the Colts. We have issues along the interior of the line. Not sure about Donald Thomas at LG, because the sample size was so small and because he's never been a full season starter, but he did well last year as a spot starter with the Pats and this year early on for us. I'm willing to pencil him in. I think you and I agree that Thornton is physically gifted and can handle RG, so long as he gets some quality C play. And we agree that our starting C is terrible, and the other option we've had is only marginally better. I am in favor of fixing this issue at C, which is the glaring need on the line right now, via free agency. I don't want to spend $8m/year on a FA, but it would sure be comforting to know that we have a capable C moving forward, as I think it would greatly improve the quality of the line play.

 

TL;DR? I want a FA center this offseason, even though I agree that it's typically better to build through the draft.