Our Defense

[Scott Pennock]

It has been said that the team needs to make minor tweaks, etc., etc., blah, blah, blah by the coaching staff and the fornt office..............

I present you with this:

14.8 yard per punt return average

32.6 yard per kick return average

6.0 yard per play average

72.8% quarterback completion percentage

113 quarterback passer rating

416 yards per game average

These are NOT the stats of a team that needs minor tweaks, these are the STATS of a speedbump that just manages to slow someone down, not stop them! These are the STATS that entire coaching staffs need to be tweaked and or fired. These are not the STATS of a team that is playing their butts off..........

Which begs the question, is this a talent issue, a coaching issue or a desire issue?

If the defensive scheme were changed to blitz a bit more, play tighter coverage at the line of scrimmage by the defensive backs and generally scrap this soft zone crap would the team be more competitive? At this point, what could it hurt to play more man to man on the outside and try to bring more pressure to the QB? Whats the worse that could happen? We lose? Been there, done that...........can anyone tell me the definition of insanity?

Just my .02.......

[Jaric]

Which begs the question, is this a talent issue, a coaching issue or a desire issue?

Yes.

[Blue Horseshoe]

Don't forget the 2nd worst scoring defense of the Super Bowl era

[Coltsfanman1953]

Sounds like things are going according to plan. :pullhair:

[chad72]

Combination of several things:

Letting go Hayden and Tryon with no back up plan in place was not too smart. First and second year players - they do not want to look like fools taking chances but vets, they will take chances and it will pay off more times than not, they will also understand down and distance to know when not to backpedal and break right away etc.

Lack of leadership is a big factor too. Brackett's presence did help with that a lot though his play may have fallen off from his glory days. Up front, losing Eric Foster and Drake Nevis is a double whammy, it would have been wise to not cut Tommie Harris.

So, a combination of miscalculated personnel decisions plus not enough vet talent plus not enough vet leadership on defense has led to our watershed moment, which was the Saints game.

[swflacoltsfans]

Amazing how much having Peyton covered up. This team was built to outscore the opponets. Once we lost Peyton we were doomed.

Can't score and can't stop anyone.

New orleans just scored again!

[Rich Cannon]

This defense and its tampa 2 mindset need to be stripped like a stolen car. Just crushed and rebuilt, personally i hate the very idea of Tampa 2 but thats just my opinion, we surely dont have the personel to play it either, strip it and become a conventional 4-3 defense

[Rich Cannon]

Amazing how much having Peyton covered up. This team was built to outscore the opponets. Once we lost Peyton we were doomed.

Can't score and can't stop anyone.

New orleans just scored again!

100 percent correct, Manning allowed us to be able to play tampa 2 relatively effectively because we would have the lead, allowing us to just rush the passer, now since we dont have the lead were getting stomped

Edited October 26, 2011 by Rich Cannon

[Blue Horseshoe]

Amazing how much having Peyton covered up. This team was built to outscore the opponets. Once we lost Peyton we were doomed.

Can't score and can't stop anyone.

New orleans just scored again!

Another thing he did which doesn't get talked about a lot is the way he sustained drives. The offense may have been no huddle but it was not a hurry up offense at all. Very deliberate, taking the play clock to the last few ticks, and putting up first downs like clockwork. This kept the Colt defense safely on the sideline to stay fresh and to have time to make adjustments.

Drive sustenance is sorely lacking right now and it being gone is one reason the defense keeps breaking down late in the 2nd & 4th quarters.

Edited October 26, 2011 by Blue Horseshoe

[chad72]

Time of possession is something like 24 for us, 36 for our opponents, a 2:3 league low ranking.

Time of possession won't matter if you are a quickfire offense that can put up points in a hurry (a lot of elite offenses like the Saints, Packers, Patriots, and even Colts with Peyton could be described that way). But with Painter as QB, going huddle, getting 1st downs and playing ball control is going to be very important moving forward to help out our D w.r.t fresh legs and field position as well. Better to punt from the 50 yard line than from your own 20.

[The Peytonator]

I think we need to quit talking about this and just hope it goes away. The Almighty Polian is baffled.

I think certainly the best thing to do is stay the course. You know, keep chopping wood. Obviously we have certainly not played as well as we'd like. Sometimes you just need to do the little things right. A little mistake here and a little mistake there can certainly cause a few headaches for the duration of the game, but you've just gotta keep doing what you do and hope to get better.

[unitaswestand]

From a basic level, the defensive scheme doesn't make any sense. The idea is to get as much pressure on the QB as possible that someone makes a mistake. The problem is, if a QB can throw a quick slant, it negates all that the Cover-2 can do. I think what we see is 10 years ago the Cover 2 was good because you still had teams playing an H-Back. But now so many teams play some type of shotgun/spread that you simply cannot get to the QB before they throw the short pass. Peyton showed that in the SB win against the Bears. You can nickel and dime all day long.

What Ii would like to see is the corners playing more press on the outside. Bump and run. Do something to slow the receivers down or off their routes, so Mathis and Freeney have more time. Yeah, maybe you will give up a big play here or there, but that has be easier on a defense then 10 play drives of being destroyed by 5-7 yard passes.

[presto123]

It's almost become a given around the league that the Colts D will never be that great. It doesn't have to be this way.

[coltsfanmilyman]

Okay since I am new and can't start a new topic; I think I am going to try and hijack this thread. . . . (sorry) (please don't get the posse after me) <-- saw the thread on the first page. . . .thought it was funny

Here is my thinking: Especially with the defense; I don't think that any changes will be done throughout the year with the coaching staff, our season is a loss for playoff/Superbowl purposes so my thing is why don't we experiment?

Defensively why aren't we trying exotic things, different types of packages, more blitzing, more man to man. My reasoning is simple, lets find out what these young in-experienced players have with regards to skills. See if any of the CB's have man to man skills ( i know that's counter-intuitive to the current philosophy) See what kinds of things our Linebackers can do for us.

Maybe they have been; I honestly can't say that I have seen any changes defensively but then again I live in CA and don't have the luxury of watching the games so I get Bob Lamey and sportline gametracker. . . .not fun

I mean it can't get much worse? So what if we lose the game. . . .we already lost 7 whats 1 more; at least to me it would show that the coaching stuff is at least willing to try something. . .anything. . . .Heck stick in Blue if it will help?

oh and Hi everyone

[Jaric]

This defense and its tampa 2 mindset need to be stripped like a stolen car. Just crushed and rebuilt, personally i hate the very idea of Tampa 2 but thats just my opinion, we surely dont have the personnel to play it either, strip it and become a conventional 4-3 defense

It's OK in certain situations. Like the prevent. There is a time and place for it.

But I think when you run it all the time as a base defense unless your team is filled with hall of fame players like Warren Sapp, John Lynch, and Derrick Brooks it's going to get carved up 8 yards at a time.

[Douzer]

Which begs the question, is this a talent issue, a coaching issue or a desire issue?

I say this is a philosophy / scheme issue.

The Tampa-2 scheme was new, fast, and took years for teams and coaches to learn how to game plan for it back in 1999. So naturally It saw success and more teams deployed a version of it in the years that followed. In 2011 every modern coach has seen it in all its different versions. The only way it can have success in todays game is to have the absolute premium personnel at every position. . While all the serious minded defensive coaches have added it to their playbook, they only run it 5 or 6 times a game, if at all. They don't use it as a philosophy because it is too predictable. The Tampa-2 scheme, like the "wishbone", is just a "variance" in a era, but can't be substituted for real defense once all of the counter measures become known. The essence of good defense is to NOT allow an offense to execute any play, and most importantly NEVER, EVER allow an opposing QB to get into a rhythm. Predictability IS the enemy of good defense. Polian unfortunately thought the defense was the future and bet the Colts bank on it. Polian & Caldwell, like the "wishbone" need to fade away quietly into the past. The time is NOW!

[Dustin]

113 passer rating? That's almost obscene... While I agree we need to do away with the Tampa 2, it's going to have to take some time. You cant just teach a defense a whole new scheme in a week. We need to slowly "wean" the defense off of it. Slowly start to integrate another scheme in during the next 3 games and fully use it after the bye week.

[StampedeU]

The Tampa-2 system really had to go. It's completely outdated, today the defenses that succeed are heavy pressure and aggressive units. This is why year after year teams like the Steelers, the Ravens and the Jets are at the top. Just sitting back, only sending 4 guys play after play is just asking the opposition to throw 3 points minimum on the board.

We got away with that year after year because Peyton was throwing up 7 every trip. The fact of the matter is Peyton is almost done. He's playing until his current contract runs out or feels he isn't fit enough to play and that's it. There won't be another Peyton Manning. Ever, and then we'll be a perennial 8-8 team at best using that scheme. Which is why the entire defensive coaching staff and head coach needs to go at the end of the season. Bring in someone who isn't scared to attack defensively.

[Superman]

The Tampa-2 system really had to go. It's completely outdated, today the defenses that succeed are heavy pressure and aggressive units. This is why year after year teams like the Steelers, the Ravens and the Jets are at the top. Just sitting back, only sending 4 guys play after play is just asking the opposition to throw 3 points minimum on the board.

We got away with that year after year because Peyton was throwing up 7 every trip. The fact of the matter is Peyton is almost done. He's playing until his current contract runs out or feels he isn't fit enough to play and that's it. There won't be another Peyton Manning. Ever, and then we'll be a perennial 8-8 team at best using that scheme. Which is why the entire defensive coaching staff and head coach needs to go at the end of the season. Bring in someone who isn't scared to attack defensively.

Tampa 2 is a situational defense. It's even every playbook, even the most aggressive coordinator's. Rex Ryan and Gregg Williams use Tampa 2 zone coverages from time to time. It's not their base defense, though. That's the problem. We run Tampa 2 regardless of situation. Adding insult to injury, we make a conservative defense even more passive by playing the corners two car lengths away from the receivers. To say the least, we overuse the Tampa 2. But I don't think the entire scheme and all it's principles have to go.

The one thing I'd change to our defense is our coverage. I'd play significantly more man, with Cover 2, Cover 1, and several zone coverages and hybrid coverages included. I don't think we need to blitz very often. I think blitzing is like a garnish: it has it's place, but it's not the main course (I feel the same way about Tampa 2 and every zone coverage). The only time I'd play my corners far off the line is in 3rd and long situations, or prevent situations, unless I had a disguised coverage I was using. I'd blitz situationally, perhaps holding my best pressures back until the situation really calls for them. Gregg Williams and Rex Ryan did this perfectly against us, in the Super Bowl and last year's playoff game. I still think we have an elite four man pass rush, and I think our ends are good enough to get consistent pressure without a lot of blitzing, but I don't think they get any help when you allow the other team to complete short passes. You allow them to negate your pass rush. To me, this was a much bigger factor in the Super Bowl than Freeney's injury. Yes, he was less effective, but it wouldn't have mattered because we did nothing to stop Brees from completing underneath throws.

The main reason I prefer man coverage as a base scheme is because it's easier to identify problems in man coverage. I think zone coverage is primarily to take away matchup advantages from the other team. Zone coverage was invented because teams had inferior cover men, so they played zones instead of man coverage. But when you play man coverage, you're forcing your players to take responsibility for one particular assignment. An offense can't stretch one defender's zone to the strong side and then complete a pass on the vacated weak side. You're less susceptible to play-action and bootlegs. And when you play Man 2 or Man 1, you can help situationally to control one player. Or you can bring an extra defender down into the box without tipping your coverage completely. I don't dislike zone coverage, I just think it's easier to manipulate and harder to fix than man coverage. I don't think any good defense plays any coverage as consistently as we play zone, whether that's Tampa 2 or any other zone.

[plshlp18]

I'm glad you threw in the special teams stats. Why does Peyton have one ring? Simple. The Colts can't run the ball, stop the run, stop the pass, get Vanderjagt to make a clutch field goal, stop a punt returner or stop a kick returner (remember the Jets game last year?). Look at the Colts' rankings in these categories during the Manning Era. How about the last Super Bowl against the Saints? Brees was 32-of-39 for 288 yards, 2 TDs and 0 INTs. The defense couldn't stop him then. Nor could the Colts recover an onside kick. Peyton played a perfect game up until the INT, but heck, he was trailing on the scoreboard at that time. How is that possible?

Fact is, this season shouldn't surprise anyone. We are this bad. We have been a one-man band ever since #18 arrived. We just refused to say anything because we always won. This season is proof that Peyton is the MVP of this league, has been since he arrived and should go down as the greatest QB that has ever played the position.

[Douzer]

I'm glad you threw in the special teams stats. Why does Peyton have one ring? Simple. The Colts can't run the ball, stop the run, stop the pass, get Vanderjagt to make a clutch field goal, stop a punt returner or stop a kick returner (remember the Jets game last year?). Look at the Colts' rankings in these categories during the Manning Era. How about the last Super Bowl against the Saints? Brees was 32-of-39 for 288 yards, 2 TDs and 0 INTs. The defense couldn't stop him then. Nor could the Colts recover an onside kick. Peyton played a perfect game up until the INT, but heck, he was trailing on the scoreboard at that time. How is that possible?

Fact is, this season shouldn't surprise anyone. We are this bad. We have been a one-man band ever since #18 arrived. We just refused to say anything because we always won. This season is proof that Peyton is the MVP of this league, has been since he arrived and should go down as the greatest QB that has ever played the position.

Quoted for truth.

[Douzer]

"when you allow the other team to complete short passes. You allow them to negate your pass rush."

I agree. and this was my favorite part.

[Jason_]

Tampa 2 is a situational defense. It's even every playbook, even the most aggressive coordinator's. Rex Ryan and Gregg Williams use Tampa 2 zone coverages from time to time. It's not their base defense, though. That's the problem. We run Tampa 2 regardless of situation. Adding insult to injury, we make a conservative defense even more passive by playing the corners two car lengths away from the receivers. To say the least, we overuse the Tampa 2. But I don't think the entire scheme and all it's principles have to go.

Agreed. I don't think the tampa 2 was ever intended to be a base defense but rather a coverage to be used in specific situations. Add to that our LBs are playing even deeper than most other teams who use tampa 2 coverage, and I'm primarily referring to the OLBs but even Angerer is dropped back further than he should be in key situations. Some may point to this as poor play by the LBs but it's been happening every game so even if it were the LBs playing out of position, then the coaches are the ones that keep allowing it to happen instead of correcting it.

[chad72]

Pro football reference did an article on field position for the last 20 years for playoff games.

Warren Moon had the second worst, if I remember right. THE worst playoff game field position for an offense was the 2008 Scifres-and-Sproles-lights-out playoff game the Colts played the Chargers. The third worst was the Colts again in the Saints-Colts SB. Let us remember this. The Saints shortened the game and dinked and dunked us all the way through the second half of that SB. They had 3 offensive possessions - 18 points. NO PUNTS. That included the possession they gained from the onside kick, obviously. Then the pick six happened.

I don't care if it is Joe Montana, Tom Brady, Elway or Peyton, the QB needs help with field position from ST and D (turnovers or punts). The reason the Steelers, despite digging an 0-14 hole, and being down 3-21 in the SB vs the Packers in the recent SB, were able to come back, was because their D was aggressive and forced a lot of punts putting the ball back in Big Ben and the offense's hands. They cut it to 21-17, then the Mendenhall turnover happened.

Edited October 27, 2011 by chad72

[WoolMagnet]

It has been said that the team needs to make minor tweaks, etc., etc., blah, blah, blah by the coaching staff and the fornt office..............

I present you with this:

14.8 yard per punt return average

32.6 yard per kick return average

6.0 yard per play average

72.8% quarterback completion percentage

113 quarterback passer rating

416 yards per game average

These are NOT the stats of a team that needs minor tweaks, these are the STATS of a speedbump that just manages to slow someone down, not stop them! These are the STATS that entire coaching staffs need to be tweaked and or fired. These are not the STATS of a team that is playing their butts off..........

Which begs the question, is this a talent issue, a coaching issue or a desire issue?

If the defensive scheme were changed to blitz a bit more, play tighter coverage at the line of scrimmage by the defensive backs and generally scrap this soft zone crap would the team be more competitive? At this point, what could it hurt to play more man to man on the outside and try to bring more pressure to the QB? Whats the worse that could happen? We lose? Been there, done that...........can anyone tell me the definition of insanity?

Just my .02.......

Part of this might be due to the amount of time they are on the field and playing from behind. The offense isn't helping them at all be sustaining drives. Our defense is TIRED!

[Douzer]

Pro football reference did an article on field position for the last 20 years for playoff games.

Warren Moon had the second worst, if I remember right. THE worst playoff game field position for an offense was the 2008 Scifres-and-Sproles-lights-out playoff game the Colts played the Chargers. The third worst was the Colts again in the Saints-Colts SB. Let us remember this. The Saints shortened the game and dinked and dunked us all the way through the second half of that SB. They had 3 offensive possessions - 18 points. NO PUNTS. That included the possession they gained from the onside kick, obviously. Then the pick six happened.

Quality observation! Just another insight into how this leadership group has been out-schemed by their peers.

[number28]

all of that is Polian and Caldwell fault. Fire them both!!!

[kayjay12]

Pro football reference did an article on field position for the last 20 years for playoff games.

Warren Moon had the second worst, if I remember right. THE worst playoff game field position for an offense was the 2008 Scifres-and-Sproles-lights-out playoff game the Colts played the Chargers. The third worst was the Colts again in the Saints-Colts SB. Let us remember this. The Saints shortened the game and dinked and dunked us all the way through the second half of that SB. They had 3 offensive possessions - 18 points. NO PUNTS. That included the possession they gained from the onside kick, obviously. Then the pick six happened.

I don't care if it is Joe Montana, Tom Brady, Elway or Peyton, the QB needs help with field position from ST and D (turnovers or punts). The reason the Steelers, despite digging an 0-14 hole, and being down 3-21 in the SB vs the Packers in the recent SB, were able to come back, was because their D was aggressive and forced a lot of punts putting the ball back in Big Ben and the offense's hands. They cut it to 21-17, then the Mendenhall turnover happened.

Well said. I have always believed that special teams need to provide a good field position. When the best KO return part in the team is "take a knee" and the best punt return is "fair catch" then we have issues. Heck I have observed that we even fair catch about our 40 yd. line. From that perspective, the Bears special teams do an awesome job( Devin Hester is a big part) they do some creative return play calling. So, the point being even when our defense forces a punt from the oppositions own 10 yd line range we still end up going 60 yds (assuming fair catch and 50yd punt).

On the defense side, I think our one play call is no different then the other one. At some point during the game once Freeney has a sack, teams actively chip him with a RB or plain double team him( We sometimes see that there is a blatant hold against him that is not called, but that is for a different time and different thread). Even then we do not and may be cannot overload on any of our end sides to send in a blitz (let me not even contemplate Cover 0 blitz). In short sometimes seems a lack of innovation. Once in a while it would be nice to see some bump and run played by our DBs. I cannot recall when I last saw it.

[HeavyC]

Our Defense sucks. Did Peyton play both sides of the ball?

[plshlp18]

Part of this might be due to the amount of time they are on the field and playing from behind. The offense isn't helping them at all be sustaining drives. Our defense is TIRED!

Yeah, we all believed that until we watched the Kansas City Chiefs' comeback this season. We've always said this defense was built to play from behind, but in reality it just needs to be re-built.

[AquaInferno]

Irsay is doing the right thing by intentionally tanking. Suck for Luck! Phins are winning and so is St Louis Luck is ours

[Truebluefan85]

On that last 3rd and 2...did nobody see our CB TURN AROUND AND START RUNNING to 10 yards back from the line...on a ******* 3rd and 2? That's our defensive scheme in action right there. Complete absurdity.

[Colts fan 4ever]

Our CB`s, wow what a pair, they play to soft, NO takeaways, interceptions - nothing!!. Freeny and Mathis, can`t do it all. Get Bob back, seem like the defense played better when bob played. LOL, anyway, there needs to be a change at CB`s. The Colts should have asked Dungy to come back for that 4 million, that they paid that other QB. What of waste of money, and he is standing on the sidelines doing NOTHING for 4 million. They should have got some new DB`s for all that money. Why waste money, when you don`t have none.

[mightisright]

Combination of several things:

Letting go Hayden and Tryon with no back up plan in place was not too smart. First and second year players - they do not want to look like fools taking chances but vets, they will take chances and it will pay off more times than not, they will also understand down and distance to know when not to backpedal and break right away etc.

Lack of leadership is a big factor too. Brackett's presence did help with that a lot though his play may have fallen off from his glory days. Up front, losing Eric Foster and Drake Nevis is a double whammy, it would have been wise to not cut Tommie Harris.

So, a combination of miscalculated personnel decisions plus not enough vet talent plus not enough vet leadership on defense has led to our watershed moment, which was the Saints game.

Agreed on all points!

[deedub75]

Amazing how much having Peyton covered up. This team was built to outscore the opponets. Once we lost Peyton we were doomed.

Can't score and can't stop anyone.

New orleans just scored again!

The defense has always been bad but was it ever THIS bad an any season in which Peyton has played?

[colts52761]

there on the field more without manning taking long drives down the field