BJoern

[Jason_]

Its really interesting to see how no one criticizes or berates this guy in ANY way like the way it was done with Jerry Hughes when he was a rook...this guy has been just as much a NON-factor as he was, AND hes injured alot. Two qualities that spell First round BUST all over it. But...he gets a pass...very interesting.

 

A few things to keep in mind:

 

The plan originally was to have Werner only learn the Rush LB spot and be Mathis' backup except on long yardage situations where both Werner and Mathis would line up at the ends and rush the passer.  However the injury to Lawrence Sidbury in training camp ruined that plan and they had to have him learn the Sam LB role as well and more often than not he's been spelling Walden instead of Mathis.  So he's primarily been playing the Sam LB role except in long yardage situations so he has other responsibilities than just rushing the passer.  He's learning 2 new positions as well as adjusting to the speed of the NFL.  he's also been injured ONCE...that's not "alot".  

 

Another thing to keep in mind, both Dion Jordan and Jarvis Jones were selected before Werner.  they're able to rush the passer far more often than Werner.  They both have numbers similar to Werner.  Jordan has 2 sacks (but he's a 4-3 DE) and Jones has only 1.  Pass rushers can take time to develop and get used to the speed of the NFL and being out for the foot injury didn't help.

[ColtsBlueFL]

Very Pedestrian, had one nice pass defended, I've not yet seen him set a hard edge, he fast enough to chase down a runner from the back side when the run goes away from him if he can get off his blocker which he rarely does.

 

I stopped watching rewind, it was brutal.But Werner is not fast, and neither is our D.  They are slow enough a wrong angle is fatal, and a decent angle is largely ineffective.  Witness this sequence on Mendenhall's longest pass play... a swing pass-

 

It appears Werner's gets outside and in position to make a play-

 

Nope!  So Vaughn saw and has an angle a bit up the field... right?

 

Nope again!  Certainly our vet safety Bethea can get a line and make a tackle, yes?

 

For crying out loud no!

 

Fortunately Mendenhall's momentum drifted him out of bounds a few more yards up the field, other wise a little swing pass could have been a TD!  O_o

 

I remember our small but fast D.  One guy couldn't tackle, but he got to the ball carrier and slowed him up whereby 10 other guys came swarming in to finish it up.  Now I watch as ball carriers go by our D one by one... no slowing the  ball carrier, no swarming to the ball... no gang tackles.  I missed most this game because I was on an airplane.  I have rewind, but not sure I want to see anymore.  Stuff like the above is enough.  and D was still fresh and we were only down 7 - 0.

 

D has a lot to fix.  O might not have enough good spare parts to rebuild into a playoff running machine at all.  Maybe somebody can step up and spark the emotions of the other guys. We could all use it about now.

[dudeski]

our NT's are doing their job the majority of the time. The runs up the middle are largely on the ILB's or the safeties. Chapman was a half step from a sack on Palmer.

no they arent

[Jason_]

no they arent

 

yes....they are.  the NT position has been the least of our problems.  and since we could go back and forth on this for many pages we should simply agree to disagree.  

[PrincetonTiger]

He got schooled a few times but as a whole did decent

[Jason_]

I agree, also he doesn't seem to be strong enough at the point of attack.  Maybe he is just hesitant and thinking too much instead of reacting. 

 

I think this is exactly right and I've thought the same thing since the preseason.  He's learning a lot of new responsibilities in learning both the Rush and Sam LB roles.  He's having to think about his assignment instead of just reacting and going on his instinct and natural ability.  When it all comes together he should be a very, very good player.

[coltsfanatic24]

yes....they are.  the NT position has been the least of our problems.  and since we could go back and forth on this for many pages we should simply agree to disagree.  

Franklin has been awful this year and Chapman hasn't shown that he can be dominate the times he was out there.

[Jason_]

Franklin has been awful this year and Chapman hasn't shown that he can be dominate the times he was out there.

 

franklin was below average earlier in the season but has improved somewhat.  I disagree regarding Chapman.

[esmort]

Franklin has been awful this year and Chapman hasn't shown that he can be dominate the times he was out there.

 

 

franklin was below average earlier in the season but has improved somewhat.  I disagree regarding Chapman.

 

While they neither are setting the world on fire they are about average/middle of the pack ...

 

PFF: Franklin is ranked in the lower middle of NT/DTs  43/70  (of players who have taken at least 25% of snaps)

 

41 - Nick Fairley

42 - Antonio Johnson

43 - Aubrayo Franklin

44 - Michael Brockers

45 - Dwan Edwards

 

You have to expand the rankings to everyone who has taken a snap at DT/NT to get Chapmans ranking (since he has taken only 143 snaps and it looks like the cut off for 25% is around 190 snaps).  Expanding the rankings makes the list go to 136 players.

 

On this list ....

 

45 - Fairley

46 - Jordan Hill

47 - Josh Chapman

48 - Montori Hughes

49 - Antonio Johnson

50 - Aubrayo Franklin

51 - Michael Brockers

52 - Dwan Edwards

[Dustin]

While they neither are setting the world on fire they are about average/middle of the pack ...

PFF: Franklin is ranked in the lower middle of NT/DTs 43/70 (of players who have taken at least 25% of snaps)

41 - Nick Fairley

42 - Antonio Johnson

43 - Aubrayo Franklin

44 - Michael Brockers

45 - Dwan Edwards

You have to expand the rankings to everyone who has taken a snap at DT/NT to get Chapmans ranking (since he has taken only 143 snaps and it looks like the cut off for 25% is around 190 snaps). Expanding the rankings makes the list go to 136 players.

On this list ....

45 - Fairley

46 - Jordan Hill

47 - Josh Chapman

48 - Montori Hughes

49 - Antonio Johnson

50 - Aubrayo Franklin

51 - Michael Brockers

52 - Dwan Edwards

To be noted, those are cumulative grades, so players with more a lot more snaps will more often than not have higher grades.

[esmort]

To be noted, those are cumulative grades, so players with more a lot more snaps will more often than not have higher grades.

 This is true, although occasionally I see the opposite and a player only plays a position for a game or two (especially against a weak opponent) and grades out really well will sneak in there ... and often I doubt if they had to play the position week in and week out they would grade as highly.  But its a starting point, you just have to look at it in conjunction with other info so you get the whole picture.

[dw49]

I stopped watching rewind, it was brutal.But Werner is not fast, and neither is our D.  They are slow enough a wrong angle is fatal, and a decent angle is largely ineffective.  Witness this sequence on Mendenhall's longest pass play... a swing pass-

 

It appears Werner's gets outside and in position to make a play-

 

Nope!  So Vaughn saw and has an angle a bit up the field... right?

 

Nope again!  Certainly our vet safety Bethea can get a line and make a tackle, yes?

 

For crying out loud no!

 

Fortunately Mendenhall's momentum drifted him out of bounds a few more yards up the field, other wise a little swing pass could have been a TD!  O_o

 

I remember our small but fast D.  One guy couldn't tackle, but he got to the ball carrier and slowed him up whereby 10 other guys came swarming in to finish it up.  Now I watch as ball carriers go by our D one by one... no slowing the  ball carrier, no swarming to the ball... no gang tackles.  I missed most this game because I was on an airplane.  I have rewind, but not sure I want to see anymore.  Stuff like the above is enough.  and D was still fresh and we were only down 7 - 0.

 

D has a lot to fix.  O might not have enough good spare parts to rebuild into a playoff running machine at all.  Maybe somebody can step up and spark the emotions of the other guys. We could all use it about now.

 

 

Do yourself a big favor and don't watch anymore. I have never in 55 years turned off a Colt game and I've seen all of them since directv. I was pretty close with this one. Not sure if I didn't have Luck and Hilton going in a big money FFL that I would have watched to the end. Just hard to keep watching this train wreck when things looked so good 4 weeks ago. Last 16 quarters have produced 13 absolutely brutal football.

[ColtsFreak]

The whole team is struggling to say the least.  Anyway on Bjoern Werner  He shows talent but he is being put in position to fail. He is a 4-3 DE playing out of position.  That falls squarely on the coaching staff and Grigson for drafting a square peg for the round hole.   

[Jason_]

The whole team is struggling to say the least. Anyway on Bjoern Werner He shows talent but he is being put in position to fail. He is a 4-3 DE playing out of position. That falls squarely on the coaching staff and Grigson for drafting a square peg for the round hole.

Its not at all uncommon for a college de to switch to olb in the NFL. Off the top of my head I can think of three other examples from that draft alone. Arizona drafted Alex okafor, Baltimore drafted john simon and Cleveland drafted barkevious mingo. Each of these guys were de in college and are being transitioned to olb. Then there's also the obvious example of Robert Mathis.

[TheBlueAndWhite]

Its not at all uncommon for a college de to switch to olb in the NFL. Off the top of my head I can think of three other examples from that draft alone. Arizona drafted Alex okafor, Baltimore drafted john simon and Cleveland drafted barkevious mingo. Each of these guys were de in college and are being transitioned to olb. Then there's also the obvious example of Robert Mathis.

out of those examples isn't bjoern werner the slowest less agile player ?

[ColtsBlueFL]

Do yourself a big favor and don't watch anymore. I have never in 55 years turned off a Colt game and I've seen all of them since directv. I was pretty close with this one. Not sure if I didn't have Luck and Hilton going in a big money FFL that I would have watched to the end. Just hard to keep watching this train wreck when things looked so good 4 weeks ago. Last 16 quarters have produced 13 absolutely brutal football.

 

I'm a glutton for punishment, typically. If it was live, I am certain I would have watched it all, fuming all the way. I was on an airplane and missed it live. I knew the outcome as soon as I Landed..  I have NFL rewind, so I thought I'd take a peek at the carnage in my hotel room. I had my fill before too long, and watched the Redskins - 49ers on MNF instead.

[Jason_]

out of those examples isn't bjoern werner the slowest less agile player ?

 

I would say no and that the only one I mentioned that is more athletic overall would be Mingo.  However, the coaches, scouts and Grigson all watched Werner very carefully doing all of the LB drills and were more than convinced that he could play the position.  Otherwise they would not have drafted him.  

[lollygagger8]

He doesn't seem to disengage blocks very well, and his speed isn't blazing fast by any means. I hope this is due to him learning the position and adjusting to the speed of the NFL. 

 

I remember draft day when Colts picked him. They had their pick in before the Vikings were barely off the stage! 

[CanuckColtsFan]

Do yourself a big favor and don't watch anymore. I have never in 55 years turned off a Colt game and I've seen all of them since directv. I was pretty close with this one. Not sure if I didn't have Luck and Hilton going in a big money FFL that I would have watched to the end. Just hard to keep watching this train wreck when things looked so good 4 weeks ago. Last 16 quarters have produced 13 absolutely brutal football.

Sadly this is the game I choose to fly down to the us and see. I got berated by cards fan s pretty mercilessly. I gotta say the pre game was more fun than the actual game. There was nothing to cheer for. I wish I made it out for San Fran like my original plan intended.

[Brent71]

Its really interesting to see how no one criticizes or berates this guy in ANY way like the way it was done with Jerry Hughes when he was a rook.

if you read a few of my previous posts you will see I have been critical of Bjorn.

[IUfan_Charlie]

He got absolutely destroyed on an open field tackle... Non factor. Bad pick. 

[IUfan_Charlie]

He doesn't seem to disengage blocks very well, and his speed isn't blazing fast by any means. I hope this is due to him learning the position and adjusting to the speed of the NFL. 

 

I remember draft day when Colts picked him. They had their pick in before the Vikings were barely off the stage! 

He isn't a LB, he's a small 4-3 end, isn't quick or athletic. 

[The Fish]

I think T-Rich is absorbing some of the "we got what for a #1 pick!?" criticisms. Bjoern is not producing like a first round talent.

[lollygagger8]

He isn't a LB, he's a small 4-3 end, isn't quick or athletic. 

 

When did 6'3" 260 lbs. become small? 

[Jason_]

He isn't a LB, he's a small 4-3 end, isn't quick or athletic. 

 

If you saw any of him at all when he was at FSU you would know how untrue that is.

[SkyBane]

If you saw any of him at all when he was at FSU you would know how untrue that is.

Yep. Bjoern's problem is entirely on the fact hes still learning the game at this speed while also learning 2 new positions in his transition to OLB. It was always going to take time with him, and hes made some good strides.

The injury slowed that down a bit, pretty much making him destined for a year 2 breakout.

[dw49]

Sadly this is the game I choose to fly down to the us and see. I got berated by cards fan s pretty mercilessly. I gotta say the pre game was more fun than the actual game. There was nothing to cheer for. I wish I made it out for San Fran like my original plan intended.

 

 

Funny you did that as I was thinking of driving the 6 hours and seeing the game too. I have some rental properties in Scottsdale and need to make a tip anyway.

[mvbighead]

I'm willing to give this time, but thus far, he looks slow.  He's in position to slow a guy down, and yet the guy can evade him with very little space.

 

Too early to call it a bad pick, but he isn't a world beater right now.

[dw49]

I'm a glutton for punishment, typically. If it was live, I am certain I would have watched it all, fuming all the way. I was on an airplane and missed it live. I knew the outcome as soon as I Landed..  I have NFL rewind, so I thought I'd take a peek at the carnage in my hotel room. I had my fill before too long, and watched the Redskins - 49ers on MNF instead.

 

 

Yea that game was brutal , especially considering that 13 of the last 16 quarters have been like that. I didn't think you would make it through 4 quarters considering you knew they put up 40 .

[Dark Superman]

He looked horrible yesterday. Had no pass rush and inconsistent against the run. Did make a nice breakup in the redzone.

The Governor looks like Jim Morrison with an eye patch.

Or Val Kilmer.

[YOUR GM]

It's appropriate that the first 2 letters in his name are capitalized (don't know if that was intentional), because he blows. We haven't gotten 1st round returns on either of our 2013 or 14 1st round picks. Grigson did awesome last year but this season has been a huge letdown, from drafting to trading, to coaching staff hires. Hopefully he'll reel it in a little from here on out

[cbear]

Its really interesting to see how no one criticizes or berates this guy in ANY way like the way it was done with Jerry Hughes when he was a rook...this guy has been just as much a NON-factor as he was, AND hes injured alot. Two qualities that spell First round BUST all over it. But...he gets a pass...very interesting.

 

Anti Werner or pro Hughes?

[Darryl C. Patrick]

A few things to keep in mind:

 

The plan originally was to have Werner only learn the Rush LB spot and be Mathis' backup except on long yardage situations where both Werner and Mathis would line up at the ends and rush the passer.  However the injury to Lawrence Sidbury in training camp ruined that plan and they had to have him learn the Sam LB role as well and more often than not he's been spelling Walden instead of Mathis.  So he's primarily been playing the Sam LB role except in long yardage situations so he has other responsibilities than just rushing the passer.  He's learning 2 new positions as well as adjusting to the speed of the NFL.  he's also been injured ONCE...that's not "alot".  

 

Another thing to keep in mind, both Dion Jordan and Jarvis Jones were selected before Werner.  they're able to rush the passer far more often than Werner.  They both have numbers similar to Werner.  Jordan has 2 sacks (but he's a 4-3 DE) and Jones has only 1.  Pass rushers can take time to develop and get used to the speed of the NFL and being out for the foot injury didn't help.

That may be true, but I never once saw anyone except Polian come up with ANY excuses for the poor play of Hughes. He was attacked like 99.9% of the time by the fans. But I see all these terrific reasons why this guy isnt performing. Its just interesting to see how that can happen. Two Defensive top picks...both busts, but only ONE gets trashed by the fans and media. Things that make you go....Hmmmmm.

[jvan1973]

That may be true, but I never once saw anyone except Polian come up with ANY excuses for the poor play of Hughes. He was attacked like 99.9% of the time by the fans. But I see all these terrific reasons why this guy isnt performing. Its just interesting to see how that can happen. Two Defensive top picks...both busts, but only ONE gets trashed by the fans and media. Things that make you go....Hmmmmm.

hughes wasn't bashed as a rookie.

[Darryl C. Patrick]

hughes wasn't bashed as a rookie.

Yes...he was....I never once saw a positive post, report or excuses being sent his way when he got any significant PT. 

[Briggs32]

That may be true, but I never once saw anyone except Polian come up with ANY excuses for the poor play of Hughes. He was attacked like 99.9% of the time by the fans. But I see all these terrific reasons why this guy isnt performing. Its just interesting to see how that can happen. Two Defensive top picks...both busts, but only ONE gets trashed by the fans and media. Things that make you go....Hmmmmm.

 

When we drafted Hughes we brought him in to be a 4-3 DE as a 3rd pass rusher to Mathis and Freeney.  This was his position in college.  He was on the smaller side like Mathis, 6-2 250, but was an excellent athlete and had a great first step.  This never worked out however.  He never really made an impact and didn't become what everyone thought he could.  I remember around the draft, Hughes was graded out as the top 3-4 OLB prospect that year by many people.  It just didn't work out.  After a season in our hybrid 3-4 in 2012, he showed a little more promise, but the brass decided to trade him to Buffalo.  He's definitely having a career year for the Bills, and I hope the best for him.  Sometimes things just don't work out.  

 

Others that never transitioned well from 4-3 DE to 3-4 OLB are Aaron Maybin out of PSU, Vernon Gholston out of OSU, and I'm sure there have been others.

[Darryl C. Patrick]

When we drafted Hughes we brought him in to be a 4-3 DE as a 3rd pass rusher to Mathis and Freeney.  This was his position in college.  He was on the smaller side like Mathis, 6-2 250, but was an excellent athlete and had a great first step.  This never worked out however.  He never really made an impact and didn't become what everyone thought he could.  I remember around the draft, Hughes was graded out as the top 3-4 OLB prospect that year by many people.  It just didn't work out.  After a season in our hybrid 3-4 in 2012, he showed a little more promise, but the brass decided to trade him to Buffalo.  He's definitely having a career year for the Bills, and I hope the best for him.  Sometimes things just don't work out.  

 

Others that never transitioned well from 4-3 DE to 3-4 OLB are Aaron Maybin out of PSU, Vernon Gholston out of OSU, and I'm sure there have been others.

Great post, however, I was only referring to the fan and media reaction that the two players received in Indianapolis. Stark contrast in my opinion. Most Everyone was questioning if Hughes was a bust almost from the beginning....but NO one has used that word so far in reference to Werner...Its just interesting to see how there are so many excuses for Werner's play that didn't get stated for Hughes. The unfairness of it all is very interesting in this day and age.

[jvan1973]

Yes...he was....I never once saw a positive post, report or excuses being sent his way when he got any significant PT.

not getting love isn't the same as being bashed. Werner is a rookie, hughes didn't take anymore of a beating here than werner has

[Darryl C. Patrick]

not getting love isn't the same as being bashed. Werner is a rookie, hughes didn't take anymore of a beating here than werner has

I never said he got bashed. But Werner hasn't taken ANY beating or negativity in any way here. But, I understand...fans interpret things the way they want and you're entitled to take my point in whatever direction you want. After all, its America.

[Jason_]

I never said he got bashed. But Werner hasn't taken ANY beating or negativity in any way here. But, I understand...fans interpret things the way they want and you're entitled to take my point in whatever direction you want. After all, its America.

Oh yes Werner absolutely has been bashed on here. I've seen a number of people already calling him a bust and at least a couple that have said he should be cut at the end of the year.