Polian scheme

[jbaron04]

Do you guys think looking back on it that polian and manning were ahead of the curve but just in wrong decade , I mean the colts were built on speed smaller faster guys keep it all in front , off was 3 wide out etc... Now in today's nfl with the wildcat and option read and all the pass that is going on would the colts of old who were built to stop the pass , win some super bowls in today's game I say yes

[jbaron04]

Like the way the game is now pass heavy , we were built to stop the pass back in the day under dungy but with the decline of running I think we could do well and our smaller faster guys would chase the option read down side to side

[chad72]

No, we still wont be able to stop the run or run the ball effectively enough to make our strengths count more vs elite playoff teams. That weakness will still remain to be exploited.

 

The Pats, Steelers, Ravens, Texans all pride on their run D first with their front 7 and force teams to pass on them and if they are opportunistic enough, hope to get some turnovers in the process. However, if they dont stop the run first, teams will take the low risk option any day of the week, any day in the playoffs. Just because it is a pass heavy league, it does not mean teams will ignore the fact that you can run on an opponent with less risk, that applies whether it is Brady or Falco or Big Ben in the AFC playing vs the Colts.

[HungarianColtsFan]

Polian's scheme was "Peyton wins the game, you others make yourselves useful."

 

/Sarcasm/

Edited April 9, 2013 by HungarianColtsFan

[Balzer40]

1st of all, Polian didn't have a scheme.

 

2nd, to answer your question...NO! It doesn't work and it's been proven time and time again. Teams that are well rounded that can pass, run, and have a good defense. That is the formula to win championships. It pretty much always has been and IMO always will be.

[Larry Horseman]

I do think the 2000's Colts (especially PM and TM and how BP built the team offensively) were a major player in shaping the NFL of today. I also think that with the rule changes, etc., the Tampa 2 is essentially a relic, particularly with Dungy's version of it. So the long and short is that I think we would have a similar level of success. 

[Black-Vell]

Perfect example - look at NE - every year they have the #1 or close regular season offense - means nothing in playoffs lately. The NFL promotes TD's like the NBA promotes the dunk & MLB promotes the homerun. Its exciting to casual fans & attracts eyeballs. Defense always has & always will dominate most sports.

 

The future is in INDY right now. Look at all of the big names that get cut every year in free agency. Why? Its impossible to pay a team full of superstars.

 

Look at how we do - we build a team of potential superstars that can only become a superstar through the success of the team. Breeds loyalty & respect & most impotantly(not hustle John Cena fans) - cap room.

 

Our team is setup so perfectly - do not be surprised if there is a scandal somewhere. Do you really think they were going to play Peyton Manning behind 2 rookie tackles? Who did Andrew Luck speak to his Jr year that told him to stay in school?  Interesting.  

[Larry Horseman]

1st of all, Polian didn't have a scheme.

 

2nd, to answer your question...NO! It doesn't work and it's been proven time and time again. Teams that are well rounded that can pass, run, and have a good defense. That is the formula to win championships. It pretty much always has been and IMO always will be.

 

So the best team wins the SB...got it! I think you are over simplifying...sure being well-rounded is the goal, but who wins the SB is who does it in the playoffs, not consistently all year. So, it's not as cut and dry as you make it. The Ravens weren't the most well-rounded team this year, but they were in the playoffs...

[Balzer40]

So the best team wins the SB...got it! I think you are over simplifying...sure being well-rounded is the goal, but who wins the SB is who does it in the playoffs, not consistently all year. So, it's not as cut and dry as you make it. The Ravens weren't the most well-rounded team this year, but they were in the playoffs...

 

 

Well, of course. I guess I figured that was implied. I'm simply pointing out that the Polian way of building a team which was to have a bunch of weapons surrounding his HOF QB and pretty much filling the O-line and much of the defense with scrubs, is a terrible formula to build a championship team.

[Larry Horseman]

pretty much filling the O-line and much of the defense with scrubs, is a terrible formula to build a championship team.

 

I don't think that was his objective (e.g., he didn't start every off-season by bringing together scouts, FO, and coaches to say, well, let's bring in crappy O-line and defensive players again this year). He failed because of poor drafting and signing the wrong Colt FAs, not because he chose to go the route of a few high priced players with a bunch of role players. In addition to Freeney, there was a lot of money invested in the D under Polian, they were just bad investments (Simon, Sanders, Hayden, Bracket to name a few). I think the general concept of paying a few stars top dollar and plugging other positions with mid-level vets and drafted players is how the majority of franchises operate in the salary cap era.

[Buck Showalter]

Who is this Polian guy every body keeps talking about???

[Balzer40]

I don't think that was his objective (e.g., he didn't start every off-season by bringing together scouts, FO, and coaches to say, well, let's bring in crappy O-line and defensive players again this year). He failed because of poor drafting and signing the wrong Colt FAs, not because he chose to go the route of a few high priced players with a bunch of role players. In addition to Freeney, there was a lot of money invested in the D under Polian, they were just bad investments (Simon, Sanders, Hayden, Bracket to name a few). I think the general concept of paying a few stars top dollar and plugging other positions with mid-level vets and drafted players is how the majority of franchises operate in the salary cap era.

 

 

 

I agree with you to an extent, but I also think it was much of Polians ego that got in his own way of making wise decisions. I'm seriously not trying to bash Polian, he was one of the greatest GM's ever, but I think it went to head bigtime and he started to believe his own hype to much. Filling the O-line and much of the defense was scrubs, I'm sure was not his intentions, but it's ultimately what he done and even though it was pointed out by fans and others for yrs. that the defense needed serious upgrades as well as the O-line, he chose to believe his own arrogance and tried to make anybody that disagreed with him look like fools. He overpaid for mediocre players and didn't sign players that would have been better because he wanted to look like the smart guy. 

[Larry Horseman]

I agree with you to an extent, but I also think it was much of Polians ego that got in his own way of making wise decisions. I'm seriously not trying to bash Polian, he was one of the greatest GM's ever, but I think it went to head bigtime and he started to believe his own hype to much. Filling the O-line and much of the defense was scrubs, I'm sure was not his intentions, but it's ultimately what he done and even though it was pointed out by fans and others for yrs. that the defense needed serious upgrades as well as the O-line, he chose to believe his own arrogance and tried to make anybody that disagreed with him look like fools. He overpaid for mediocre players and didn't sign players that would have been better because he wanted to look like the smart guy. 

 

I agree with that...his downfall was with evaluation/personnel choices, not the general frame he used to construct a team. If he would have hit on players in the later 2000s like he did in the early 2000s, he'd still be our GM. Always picking at the bottom of the rounds also factors into this...

[BOTT]

No

[BrentMc11]

I do think the 2000's Colts (especially PM and TM and how BP built the team offensively) were a major player in shaping the NFL of today. I also think that with the rule changes, etc., the Tampa 2 is essentially a relic, particularly with Dungy's version of it. So the long and short is that I think we would have a similar level of success. 

There has nothing that has been posted in this forum so true.  The so-called read and react...bend but don't break is 'heaven' to the Zone Read/Pistol New Wave 'veer' offenses.

 

The Colts offense as Larry points out could score in any era.  

 

Also as Balzer states, Polian did not have a scheme. I will say that I am longing for the days of the Colts winning 40-10 instead of 47-43.  Sometimes bend but don't break....breaks down a human heart over time...

[throwing BBZ]

We had a very good O-Line Coach.

 

I would not call Tarik Glenn, Ryan Lilja, Jeff Saturday, Jake Scott, Ryan Diem, Charlie Johnson Scrubs.
They all developed into Good Starters.

And picking at the bottom highly affects roster strength over time.
Drafting Clark, Addai, Gonzo, Brown rather than D was arguable. The miss on Ugoh was a real hurt.
Oh well!

[lollygagger8]

Na'Polian's scheme was to overpay the handful of playmakers (and overpaid non-playmakers) to the point where he didn't have any cap left to dabble in free agency.

[Buck Showalter]

the 2007 & 2008 drafts hurt alot...

a few decent players came out of those drafts but the misses on the early picks hurt, alot...

[Balzer40]

We had a very good O-Line Coach.

 

I would not call Tarik Glenn, Ryan Lilja, Jeff Saturday, Jake Scott, Ryan Diem, Charlie Johnson Scrubs.

They all developed into Good Starters.

And picking at the bottom highly affects roster strength over time.

Drafting Clark, Addai, Gonzo, Brown rather than D was arguable. The miss on Ugoh was a real hurt.

Oh well!

 

 

 

I have always disagreed with those that thought we had a good O-line for yrs.. Glenn was a beast and Saturday was very good, but mostly because he's just so darn smart. Lilja, Diem, and Johnson were huge liabilities in run blocking and Scott was average IMO. Our O-line looked better than it really was because Saturday and Manning worked so well together and Manning was the master at knowing what the defense was going to do. 

[BrentMc11]

Na'Polian's scheme was to overpay the handful of playmakers (and overpaid non-playmakers) to the point where he didn't have any cap left to dabble in free agency.

After what Grigson came in and accomplished with 53 relative unknowns, I really cringe when I think about what the Polians would have done to rewrite the script.

 

With the cap tougher than ever, what would have happened?  There is no way we go 11-5 last year if the Polians remained.....other than if we kept number 18...yes I had to say it...

[smittywerb]

I think the offense Peyton ran has heavily influenced the nfl, with the no huddle and sets. But their "scheme", no. Same results.

[throwing BBZ]

I have always disagreed with those that thought we had a good O-line for yrs.. Glenn was a beast and Saturday was very good, but mostly because he's just so darn smart. Lilja, Diem, and Johnson were huge liabilities in run blocking and Scott was average IMO. Our O-line looked better than it really was because Saturday and Manning worked so well together and Manning was the master at knowing what the defense was going to do. 

 

 Yip, wasn`t that the O-Line that RAN US to our SB Win? Sure was!

[Superman]

After what Grigson came in and accomplished with 53 relative unknowns, I really cringe when I think about what the Polians would have done to rewrite the script.

 

With the cap tougher than ever, what would have happened?  There is no way we go 11-5 last year if the Polians remained.....other than if we kept number 18...yes I had to say it...

 

I think Polian staying would have meant Manning staying, and it also would have meant Caldwell and most of his staff staying. It would have meant more suspect drafting, and it would have cost us some of the players that had a big role in our success last season.

 

Irsay ripped the bandaid off and hoped the wound had healed sufficiently. Still some raw spots, but for the most part, the team has a good foundation and a good future. I like what Irsay has allowed Grigson and Pagano to build.

 

But I would have loved to see Manning stay a Colt for the rest of his career. Alas...

[BrentMc11]

I think Polian staying would have meant Manning staying, and it also would have meant Caldwell and most of his staff staying. It would have meant more suspect drafting, and it would have cost us some of the players that had a big role in our success last season.

 

Irsay ripped the bandaid off and hoped the wound had healed sufficiently. Still some raw spots, but for the most part, the team has a good foundation and a good future. I like what Irsay has allowed Grigson and Pagano to build.

 

But I would have loved to see Manning stay a Colt for the rest of his career. Alas...

Very well stated!  

 

It looks like it may be the blueprint for other teams to follow now.  I hope they all do not think it will turn out 11-5 in their first year.  

 

Oakland has been tearing down the walls....

[Superman]

Very well stated!  

 

It looks like it may be the blueprint for other teams to follow now.  I hope they all do not think it will turn out 11-5 in their first year.  

 

Oakland has been tearing down the walls....

 

Yeah, Oakland is doing the right thing, finally. If only they'd put together a couple good draft classes, they could be a factor. It would help if they'd stop trading away their first rounders...

[unitaswestand]

I have always disagreed with those that thought we had a good O-line for yrs.. Glenn was a beast and Saturday was very good, but mostly because he's just so darn smart. Lilja, Diem, and Johnson were huge liabilities in run blocking and Scott was average IMO. Our O-line looked better than it really was because Saturday and Manning worked so well together and Manning was the master at knowing what the defense was going to do. 

 

The scheme has a lot to do with it.  I will predict this year, with Luck likely throwing the ball quicker, suddenly people will be raving about Castonzo getting better or our other lineman coming on.   Manning made our OLine look good because he got rid of the ball so quick.  But they could rarely ever run block well.  Huge liability.

[lollygagger8]

Yeah, Oakland is doing the right thing, finally. If only they'd put together a couple good draft classes, they could be a factor. It would help if they'd stop trading away their first rounders...

 

Sadly, it took Al to pass away for it to happen.

 

With McKenzie taking over, they could turn it around and become a force again.

[BrentMc11]

Sadly, it took Al to pass away for it to happen.

 

With McKenzie taking over, they could turn it around and become a force again.

I think I made a huge mistake in slamming McKenzie awhile back....he just decided to use the Colts blueprint.  I lost my mind because it was the Raiders....the man HAS a plan....

[lollygagger8]

I think I made a huge mistake in slamming McKenzie awhile back....he just decided to use the Colts blueprint.  I lost my mind because it was the Raiders....the man HAS a plan....

 

It's easy to lose your mind when talking about the black and silver hole. lol

 

I think they'll turn it around though. Too bad Jackson was in charge of making crazy decisions before.

[Blueblazes]

Bingo. Manning's last year with us it was reported that he average 2.6 per drop back pass time, while Brady averaged having 4.6 per drop back that year. Peyton made a mediocre line look great in pass blocking stats.

I have always disagreed with those that thought we had a good O-line for yrs.. Glenn was a beast and Saturday was very good, but mostly because he's just so darn smart. Lilja, Diem, and Johnson were huge liabilities in run blocking and Scott was average IMO. Our O-line looked better than it really was because Saturday and Manning worked so well together and Manning was the master at knowing what the defense was going to do. 

[Blueblazes]

_{*2.6 seconds and 4.6 seconds.}

[OlBlu]

Do you guys think looking back on it that polian and manning were ahead of the curve but just in wrong decade , I mean the colts were built on speed smaller faster guys keep it all in front , off was 3 wide out etc... Now in today's nfl with the wildcat and option read and all the pass that is going on would the colts of old who were built to stop the pass , win some super bowls in today's game I say yes

 

Amen!!  :dancing:

[OlBlu]

Bingo. Manning's last year with us it was reported that he average 2.6 per drop back pass time, while Brady averaged having 4.6 per drop back that year. Peyton made a mediocre line look great in pass blocking stats.

 

That is why Manning would have won 10 games or more with the 2011 team and just as many or more with the 2012 team. Getting rid of the ball that quickly is one of Luck's biggest weaknesses along with underthrowing long routes..... :dancing:

[OlBlu]

Na'Polian's scheme was to overpay the handful of playmakers (and overpaid non-playmakers) to the point where he didn't have any cap left to dabble in free agency.

 

He didn't believe in free agency and he got a lot of different teams to the Super Bowl...... :dancing:

[Buck Showalter]

He didn't believe in free agency and he got a lot of different teams to the Super Bowl...... :dancing:

 

Ironic that the only SB win Polian got was a year where he did dip into FA... :dancing:

[crazycolt1]

He didn't believe in free agency and he got a lot of different teams to the Super Bowl...... :dancing:

Exactly how many super bowls did Polian win? ONE.

[OlBlu]

Exactly how many super bowls did Polian win? ONE.

 

How many did he get to? SEVEN!!!   :dancing:

[OlBlu]

Ironic that the only SB win Polian got was a year where he did dip into FA... :dancing:

 

Hey!!  :dancing:

[Flash7]

That is why Manning would have won 10 games or more with the 2011 team and just as many or more with the 2012 team. Getting rid of the ball that quickly is one of Luck's biggest weaknesses along with underthrowing long routes..... :dancing:

You're saying that Manning would've won 10 games or more with the Colts this year, yet do not give credit to Luck for doing just that. Secondly, with Manning on the team, we could not afford some of the players that we were able to sign. Therefore, he would not be playing for a team that resembles the 2012 Colts, and therefore, you do not know that he would've won 10+games.

[GoColts8818]

I have always disagreed with those that thought we had a good O-line for yrs.. Glenn was a beast and Saturday was very good, but mostly because he's just so darn smart. Lilja, Diem, and Johnson were huge liabilities in run blocking and Scott was average IMO. Our O-line looked better than it really was because Saturday and Manning worked so well together and Manning was the master at knowing what the defense was going to do. 

Yes they were so awful in run blocking that the Colts o-line had a 1000 yard rusher every year from 1997 threw 2007 except for one year when Edge was coming off a major knee injury.  They did it for four different backs over that time and twice produced the league's leading rusher and was key to us winning a Super Bowl in 2006.  Add to that they did this in a pass first offense and had one of the least sacked and pressured QBs in the NFL.  We saw what happened from the end of 2007 till the end of the Polian era to see it wasn't just Peyton and Saturday or the performance wouldn't have dropped as much as it did because both of those players were still there. 

 

No mistake the Colts o-line feel apart really starting the last quarter of the 2007 season and Polian was never able to fully fix it and his attempts to fix it were confusing to say the least and Polian deserves the blame he gets for that.  However up till 2007 the Colts o-line was as good as any o-line in football and better than most.