Jon Gruden..

[aaron11]

1 hour ago, dodsworth said:

In the short time he has been in control 'he gets it'. I don't believe Polian 

'Got it' the whole time he was with the Bills and Colts because the lines 

And defense were largely poo pooed the majority of the time he was in

control.

This problem won't happen under Ballard.

 

polians teams went to six super bowls, im pretty sure he got it

 

they only won one of them but i dont think that makes him look bad at all

 

the 2009 game was odd, we definitely had the talent on the roster to win that.  we had the talent to win in 2005 too

 

i dont follow the bill very closely, but im pretty sure they were just really unlucky in some of their SB losses

 

 

[dodsworth]

27 minutes ago, aaron11 said:

polians teams went to six super bowls, im pretty sure he got it

 

they only won one of them but i dont think that makes him look bad at all

 

the 2009 game was odd, we definitely had the talent on the roster to win that.  we had the talent to win in 2005 too

 

i dont follow the bill very closely, but im pretty sure they were just really unlucky in some of their SB losses

 

 

It's definitely an accomplishment to make it to 6 superbowls but building your

teams with flashy offenses usually don't fair well in the post season without 

stout lines and defense as his Bills and Colts teams have shown.

 

He won XLI because of the lines and defense showing up in the post season, 

along with squeeking by NE in the AFC championship game. His Bills teams

got mauled at the lines and by opposing defenses.

 

I was never a fan of the way Polian put his team's together. Ballard is building his team's in the trenches and defense first which is the way a team should 

put together. 

[BR-549]

19 minutes ago, dodsworth said:

It's definitely an accomplishment to make it to 6 superbowls but building your

teams with flashy offenses usually don't fair well in the post season without 

stout lines and defense as his Bills and Colts teams have shown.

 

He won XLI because of the lines and defense showing up in the post season, 

along with squeeking by NE in the AFC championship game. His Bills teams

got mauled at the lines and by opposing defenses.

 

I was never a fan of the way Polian put his team's together. Ballard is building his team's in the trenches and defense first which is the way a team should 

put together. 

I don't know about that... any team that has Freeney and Mathis as DE's makes for a pretty good defensive line.  

 

Our offensive line wasn't too shabby either in most years.  I would agree that our linebackers were usually generic and when we got a good one we traded them away, but for the most part our OL and DL were reasonably   stout.  And I get it that we got ran on a lot for many years but again I think that was more our linebacker issues.

 

As far as the Bills losing SB's I have to put that on the coaching staff more than anything, because without doubt the talent was there on both sides of the ball.... they were well built teams in my mind they just plain choked, laughably in all four of their chances.

 

I will agree that CB is building our team in a completely different manner and I like how he is approaching it so far.  Lets hope his recipe is one for the ages and we cook up a few championships.

[jet1968]

No thanks. That would be going from mediocre to mediocre.

[BloodyChamp]

No.

 

He was a good coach whose end has nothing to do with the reasons cooked up. He's like Mike Ditka who was also a good coach. He won it all so fast and wasn't the same after that. 

[GoColts8818]

12 hours ago, DaColts85 said:

Your original post was that you're not interested in a coach who was fired at his last stop.  In response to that, so was Dungy before coming here.  I do not care about anything else but with that point you are irrelevant with stating that.  And I agree with the second part, most coaches who are fired stay in the league some how or go to the media to help stay current.  From there some come back and others do not.  But I feel like this is something that has possibly made Gruden better in the long run if he does have the desire t o coach.  Also, just to clarify, at no point am I starting a campaign or saying I want Gruden as the Colts next coach.

No my original point was that I was not interested in a coach who had been out of football for a long period of time especially after being fired at his last stop.  My main concern is hiring a coach who has been out of football for a long time.  Him being fired at his last stop because the team was clearly regressing from being a Super Bowl champion to not making the playoffs anymore just adds to that but wasn't my main concern. 

[dodsworth]

On 7/28/2017 at 3:34 PM, BR-549 said:

I don't know about that... any team that has Freeney and Mathis as DE's makes for a pretty good defensive line.  

 

Our offensive line wasn't too shabby either in most years.  I would agree that our linebackers were usually generic and when we got a good one we traded them away, but for the most part our OL and DL were reasonably   stout.  And I get it that we got ran on a lot for many years but again I think that was more our linebacker issues.

 

As far as the Bills losing SB's I have to put that on the coaching staff more than anything, because without doubt the talent was there on both sides of the ball.... they were well built teams in my mind they just plain choked, laughably in all four of their chances.

 

I will agree that CB is building our team in a completely different manner and I like how he is approaching it so far.  Lets hope his recipe is one for the ages and we cook up a few championships.

Good points on Freeney and Mathis but when he would have good defenders like linebackers

Thornton and Peterson he would let them walk along with good o linemen Lilja and Jake Scott.

[sreeb2deeni]

Gruden would be an upgrade over Pagano IMO.

 

If Chuck were to get fired after this year, I'd bet he would not be hired on tv as an expert analyst. Now I do believe he loves football and loves the players he coaches, and would totally have their backs if trapped in a foxhole together. He just doesn't seem to have the superior football knowledge to out-coach the opposing coach. Chuck is a wonderful human being and a passionate football guy, but he rarely has any tricks up his sleeve to out-fox opposing coaches. If Andrew cranks it up and pulls out the win for the team, it still is not an indication of superior coaching.

 

Gruden's time out of coaching has allowed him to really study what wins in the NFL. To say he's going to come back rusty or out-of-date is ridiculous IMO.

 

 

[Jason_]

On 7/28/2017 at 4:34 PM, BR-549 said:

I don't know about that... any team that has Freeney and Mathis as DE's makes for a pretty good defensive line.  

 

Our offensive line wasn't too shabby either in most years.  I would agree that our linebackers were usually generic and when we got a good one we traded them away, but for the most part our OL and DL were reasonably   stout.  And I get it that we got ran on a lot for many years but again I think that was more our linebacker issues.

 

As far as the Bills losing SB's I have to put that on the coaching staff more than anything, because without doubt the talent was there on both sides of the ball.... they were well built teams in my mind they just plain choked, laughably in all four of their chances.

 

I will agree that CB is building our team in a completely different manner and I like how he is approaching it so far.  Lets hope his recipe is one for the ages and we cook up a few championships.

 

Aside from freeny and Mathis (who were both pne trick pony pass rushers) who else did the DL have that was stout?

[shakedownstreet]

i farded

[BloodyChamp]

Gruden and Pag are the pot and the kettle. I agree that Pag has his team but he just doesn't have the Xs and Os covered. Gruden was an underrated Xs and Os guy to start with, and I would bet that he's better now. I just don't think he has the juice to coach though. It would be 1 ugly situation before the end just like Ditka if he came back.

 

I'm not saying Pag should stay either but that's another post.

[Synthetic]

 

Jon Gruden is the most overrated coach of the last decade. 

 

You all do realize that he basically won his Super Bowl with a loaded defense that Tony Dungy built? had Dungy not been fired, he would've been there in 2002 for that Super Bowl (and they probably get a chance at more SB's, cause Dungy knew what he was doing as a coach). That was his Tampa Bay team that he spent years building there.

 

I lived in Florida in the early 2000's and used to watch those Bucs teams every Sunday. I watched every game of the 2002 season and have a couple of those games on tape that I occasionally go back and watch cause that defense was just so amazing to witness. That team was NOT an offensive powerhouse. Gruden is supposed to be some genius, yet anyone who watched the Bucs in their SB year will flat out tell you that their offense did not improve under Gruden. The team was ranked #3 in turnovers and during the playoff run, just go back and count how many touchdowns the defense scored cause it was a lot. They played Philly in the NFCCG and that game was over fast after a few McNabb interceptions got returned for TD's. In the SB, Tampa Bay's offense really didn't do much (and turned the ball over), while their defense grabbed 5 interceptions and was running them back and scoring. That SB was not won off an amazing offensive performance, that was all defense ruthlessly killing the Raiders. 

 

Gruden won a Super Bowl with a loaded defense that he did not build. He didn't even build their offense either - Keyshawn Johnson? That was a Dungy movie...Mike Alstott? Dungy drafted him...Warrick Dunn? Another Dungy move, and Dunn was the guy who Gruden let walk in favor of Michael Pittman who was a major disappointment. 

 

Tampa's offense under Gruden never improved...When he got there, he had Brad Johnson and immediately tried to turn him into an elite QB by running the West Coast Offense. Johnson was Dungy's QB and he was best fit as a game manager that you don't ask to throw 40-50 times a game. Gruden ruined him. 

 

Go through all the quarterbacks Gruden had in Tampa Bay and they all sucked. He never had the patience with rookies. He drafted Chris Simms and immediately threw him out there to run that same West Coast style offense, asking him to throw bombs all game, and that didn't work out. Gradkwoski was another one he ruined. Gruden never had the patience with young rookies, so he often stuck with veterans and backup quarterbacks...and they never improved either. Brian Griese and Jeff Garcia were below average playing in Tampa Bay. 

 

People can rag on other offensive coaches who have terrible defenses but with Gruden, it was the complete opposite. When the Bucs made the playoffs after 2002, it was all because of a great defense. 2007 was the last year of Tampa's awesome defense, and they were ranked in the top 5, and yet he couldn't put an offense together whatsoever and they go one and done in the playoffs. There's no excuse here. Gruden HAD awesome defenses in Tampa Bay. There's no excuse that his offenses were so poor and did not improve whatsoever. 

 

Gruden basically struck gold with Rich Gannon in Oakland and after that, he thought any old backup or veteran could magically turn into that. The Jeff Garcia experiment pretty much got him fired. 

 

All those years in Tampa, he had a revolving door at quarterback cause he had no patience to develop one. 

 

I am amazed at the mythology built around Gruden that he is some super awesome coach. Seriously, go back and look at those Tampa Bay teams! After 2002, they still had that awesome defense that Dungy built. The defense slowly faded away as players got older and retired or left, but Gruden had years and never developed an offense there. The biggest move he did was drafting Cadillac Williams...He never developed a quarterback, he never built this super awesome offense that people think he did. Go pull up those years and look at the stats. 

 

One more note - Tampa Bay never won another playoff game after 2002. Gruden did manage to get back to the playoffs a few times and they were all big blow out losses. 

 

 

Most overrated coach of the last decade. If he didn't have a job commentating on ESPN and talking about how much he loves certain quarterbacks, no one would sit here and talk about him being this super genius coach. I have never seen such a huge mythology built around a mediocre coach...He won a SB with a loaded stacked defense. To give Gruden credit for winning with Dungy's Tampa Bay team is like calling Gary Kubiak a genius just for riding that awesome Denver team in 2015 that he didn't build whatsoever. 

 

If Jon Gruden was the Colts coach back in 2015, he would've lost his patience with Luck after all those bad games with the turnovers and interceptions and then benched him and would want to trade him. Remember when Matt Hasselbeck won more games than Luck that year? That would've been all it would take for Gruden to fall in love with Hasselbeck and go with him. Gruden had absolutely zero patience with quarterbacks. Go pull up the Tampa Bay teams between 2003 to 2007 and just look at the revolving door of QB's who he didn't really give a chance with. As soon as they struggled, he wanted a new guy...

 

[BloodyChamp]

This proves your point but also my own, and it also kind of proves my point in a recent thread that got crazy. Dungy built the Buccs doing what he does best, whipping a team together no matter how bad they were. He always leveled off though. 10-6 and 1 and done was where the Buccs were going for the rest of eternity with Dungy. Gruden was they type they needed to build on that. 

[crazycolt1]

On ‎7‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 10:01 AM, NannyMcafee said:

 

It really doesn't feel like this is his first time as a GM. 

Neither did Grigson.

[AZColt11]

Got two things to say about Gruden, one positive, one negative.  On the positive. he got royally screwed out of the "Tuck Rule" game and the officials even admitted as much and they changed the rule after that game.  He likely would have had the Raiders in the AFC Championship, and IMHO the Superbowl that year.  I don't think they would have beaten the Rams though.  So IMHO he would have been to 2 Superbowls.  On the negative, many of his former players say he didn't care about the defense and wasn't involved enough on that side of the ball.  He would likely need a strong defensive coordinator under him.

 

On the whole, I'd give him a shot.  He's tough-minded and I think Ballard and Gruden would be a lot alike.

[BR-549]

17 hours ago, J@son said:

 

Aside from freeny and Mathis (who were both pne trick pony pass rushers) who else did the DL have that was stout?

So what if they were one trick ponies.  As I recall we were not as good before or after them.  Most teams don't get two hall of fame "one trick pony" DE's, particularly at the same time.  Exactly how many people on a line does it take?  The point of my post was that Bill Polian did just fine building teams.  

I understand what you are getting at and maybe it was a little bold to say "stout", but we did win a lot of games even if part of that was due to Manning.  

[aaron11]

18 hours ago, J@son said:

 

Aside from freeny and Mathis (who were both pne trick pony pass rushers) who else did the DL have that was stout?

mathis has the all time record for strip sacks

 

any team would be glad to have a "one trick pony" like that

[Jason_]

4 hours ago, aaron11 said:

mathis has the all time record for strip sacks

 

any team would be glad to have a "one trick pony" like that

 

Most teams would prefer their DEs have at least a little bit of run stopping ability

[Jason_]

4 hours ago, BR-549 said:

So what if they were one trick ponies.  As I recall we were not as good before or after them.  Most teams don't get two hall of fame "one trick pony" DE's, particularly at the same time.  Exactly how many people on a line does it take?  The point of my post was that Bill Polian did just fine building teams.  

I understand what you are getting at and maybe it was a little bold to say "stout", but we did win a lot of games even if part of that was due to Manning.  

 

Yeah stout was definitely the wrong word. And how many people does it take? 4. Thats how many. At least with the 43 defense the colts were running at the time.

 

Sure we had 2 great DEs but we has terrible DTs.  Thata why run defense was always a problem. 

[chad72]

11 minutes ago, J@son said:

 

Sure we had 2 great DEs but we has terrible DTs.  Thata why run defense was always a problem. 

 

True but given the inordinate number of draw plays that were successful against our DEs, the coaching was an issue too on D, IMO.

 

Knowing the QB was taking a 2 or 3 step drop due to our DEs, we still played cushions with our CBs. 

[NannyMcafee]

11 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

Neither did Grigson.

 

Hopefully the second time is the charm.

[BR-549]

13 minutes ago, J@son said:

 

Yeah stout was definitely the wrong word. And how many people does it take? 4. Thats how many. At least with the 43 defense the colts were running at the time.

 

Sure we had 2 great DEs but we has terrible DTs.  Thata why run defense was always a problem. 

Along with no notable Linebackers.  And when we did get one we traded him to Tenn or Houston or whoever.

 

My whole point again was that Bill Polian is just fine putting teams together.  I get it our D-line was weaker than most in the middle, but that doesn't mean they sucked either. 

 

Six suberbowls is a pretty good accomplishment.  And the line has to be decent to get there win it or not.  Just my opinion.

 

[crazycolt1]

16 hours ago, Synthetic said:

 

Jon Gruden is the most overrated coach of the last decade. 

 

You all do realize that he basically won his Super Bowl with a loaded defense that Tony Dungy built? had Dungy not been fired, he would've been there in 2002 for that Super Bowl (and they probably get a chance at more SB's, cause Dungy knew what he was doing as a coach). That was his Tampa Bay team that he spent years building there.

 

I lived in Florida in the early 2000's and used to watch those Bucs teams every Sunday. I watched every game of the 2002 season and have a couple of those games on tape that I occasionally go back and watch cause that defense was just so amazing to witness. That team was NOT an offensive powerhouse. Gruden is supposed to be some genius, yet anyone who watched the Bucs in their SB year will flat out tell you that their offense did not improve under Gruden. The team was ranked #3 in turnovers and during the playoff run, just go back and count how many touchdowns the defense scored cause it was a lot. They played Philly in the NFCCG and that game was over fast after a few McNabb interceptions got returned for TD's. In the SB, Tampa Bay's offense really didn't do much (and turned the ball over), while their defense grabbed 5 interceptions and was running them back and scoring. That SB was not won off an amazing offensive performance, that was all defense ruthlessly killing the Raiders. 

 

Gruden won a Super Bowl with a loaded defense that he did not build. He didn't even build their offense either - Keyshawn Johnson? That was a Dungy movie...Mike Alstott? Dungy drafted him...Warrick Dunn? Another Dungy move, and Dunn was the guy who Gruden let walk in favor of Michael Pittman who was a major disappointment. 

 

Tampa's offense under Gruden never improved...When he got there, he had Brad Johnson and immediately tried to turn him into an elite QB by running the West Coast Offense. Johnson was Dungy's QB and he was best fit as a game manager that you don't ask to throw 40-50 times a game. Gruden ruined him. 

 

Go through all the quarterbacks Gruden had in Tampa Bay and they all sucked. He never had the patience with rookies. He drafted Chris Simms and immediately threw him out there to run that same West Coast style offense, asking him to throw bombs all game, and that didn't work out. Gradkwoski was another one he ruined. Gruden never had the patience with young rookies, so he often stuck with veterans and backup quarterbacks...and they never improved either. Brian Griese and Jeff Garcia were below average playing in Tampa Bay. 

 

People can rag on other offensive coaches who have terrible defenses but with Gruden, it was the complete opposite. When the Bucs made the playoffs after 2002, it was all because of a great defense. 2007 was the last year of Tampa's awesome defense, and they were ranked in the top 5, and yet he couldn't put an offense together whatsoever and they go one and done in the playoffs. There's no excuse here. Gruden HAD awesome defenses in Tampa Bay. There's no excuse that his offenses were so poor and did not improve whatsoever. 

 

Gruden basically struck gold with Rich Gannon in Oakland and after that, he thought any old backup or veteran could magically turn into that. The Jeff Garcia experiment pretty much got him fired. 

 

All those years in Tampa, he had a revolving door at quarterback cause he had no patience to develop one. 

 

I am amazed at the mythology built around Gruden that he is some super awesome coach. Seriously, go back and look at those Tampa Bay teams! After 2002, they still had that awesome defense that Dungy built. The defense slowly faded away as players got older and retired or left, but Gruden had years and never developed an offense there. The biggest move he did was drafting Cadillac Williams...He never developed a quarterback, he never built this super awesome offense that people think he did. Go pull up those years and look at the stats. 

 

One more note - Tampa Bay never won another playoff game after 2002. Gruden did manage to get back to the playoffs a few times and they were all big blow out losses. 

 

 

Most overrated coach of the last decade. If he didn't have a job commentating on ESPN and talking about how much he loves certain quarterbacks, no one would sit here and talk about him being this super genius coach. I have never seen such a huge mythology built around a mediocre coach...He won a SB with a loaded stacked defense. To give Gruden credit for winning with Dungy's Tampa Bay team is like calling Gary Kubiak a genius just for riding that awesome Denver team in 2015 that he didn't build whatsoever. 

 

If Jon Gruden was the Colts coach back in 2015, he would've lost his patience with Luck after all those bad games with the turnovers and interceptions and then benched him and would want to trade him. Remember when Matt Hasselbeck won more games than Luck that year? That would've been all it would take for Gruden to fall in love with Hasselbeck and go with him. Gruden had absolutely zero patience with quarterbacks. Go pull up the Tampa Bay teams between 2003 to 2007 and just look at the revolving door of QB's who he didn't really give a chance with. As soon as they struggled, he wanted a new guy...

 

This has to be the most honest set of facts I have ever seen on Gruden.  Add the fact he loves the camera and lights up like a X-Mas tree whenever a camera gets within 20 feet of him. You will find very few if any players who have played for him have anything positive to say about him. There is a reason he coached for 6 different teams from 1990 till 2002.

[jvan1973]

21 hours ago, Synthetic said:

 

Jon Gruden is the most overrated coach of the last decade

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jon Gruden hasn't coached in almost a decade

[BloodyChamp]

Right on time with the useless robot data.

[ColtsBlueFL]

On 7/30/2017 at 2:19 PM, J@son said:

 

Aside from freeny and Mathis (who were both pne trick pony pass rushers) who else did the DL have that was stout?

 

In 2005, they had Corey Simon, Monte Reagor, and Raheem Brock on the DL to go with Freeney and Mathis too.

 

Defensive backfield had Nick Harper, Kelvin Hayden, Marlin Jackson, Mike Doss, Bob Sanders,  etc...

 

For where we had  been drafting... not bad IMO considering...

[Jason_]

13 hours ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

In 2005, they had Corey Simon, Monte Reagor, and Raheem Brock on the DL to go with Freeney and Mathis too.

 

Defensive backfield had Nick Harper, Kelvin Hayden, Marlin Jackson, Mike Doss, Bob Sanders,  etc...

 

For where we had  been drafting... not bad IMO considering...

 

the problem is..that was only for that one year.  Plus, both Reagor and Brock were DEs forced into DT roles by Dungy's overzealous pursuance of speed over size.  From there it only got worse when Reagor left and they moved the 265 lb Keyunta Dawson to DT.  

[jvan1973]

On 7/31/2017 at 11:02 PM, BloodyChamp said:

Right on time with the useless robot data.

Yes,  pointing out a coach that hasn't coached in a decade to a posy saying said is the most overrated coach in the last decade is useless data.  

 

If that's the case,  you've never posted anything but useless data.

 

The most overrated coach of the last decade is obviously not Jon Gruden.  Now run along

[BloodyChamp]

He didn't say said is the most overrated coach in the last decade, he said Gruden is. And he's not a posy, he's a Synthetic. 

 

See how annoying that is...like how I corrected you twice over a couple of things that really don't matter even though I clearly got the point of what you were saying. Humans let that stuff slide. <------ But first lookey there. That's a period. 

[jvan1973]

4 minutes ago, BloodyChamp said:

He didn't say said is the most overrated coach in the last decade, he said Gruden is. And he's not a posy, he's a Synthetic. 

 

See how annoying that is...like how I corrected you twice over a couple of things that really don't matter even though I clearly got the point of what you were saying. Humans let that stuff slide. <------ But first lookey there. That's a period. 

First,  he did say the most overrated coach in the last decade.

 

Second,  he is bogie.  The name change fooled no one.

 

Third,  I never correct grammar.

[BloodyChamp]

But you go back and edit it I see.

[Jules]

You two.  

[southwest1]

On July 28, 2017 at 2:17 AM, Jules said:

This Gruden thing pops up here every so often and my answer to Gruden is still:

 

Jules nailed it. I have no interest in Gruden period. He's not leaving MNF. The money is just too good, he gets to interview all the new QB rookies, & he's well liked by his ESPN colleagues & bosses. 

 

I can't stop staring at that duck. Does that mean I'm a quack? Great post. Simple, funny, effective.