Colts have the 15th pick in the draft. (MERGE)

[chad72]

58 minutes ago, DougDew said:

But some here, including me, wanted a more long term solution opposite TY, so we advocated for Brown (and was it Lockett? or Deebo?). 

 

 

Both A J Brown and Deebo Samuel (who was putting on a clinic at the Senior Bowl) were fan forum favorites here.  

[ColtStrong2013]

1 hour ago, #12. said:

 

I'm not commenting on Brown specifically, as I don't see it happening, but Ballard absolutely needs someone to push him.  Irsay tried to push him with Wentz and whatnot, but judging by how it all went off the rails in 2022, Irsay was the wrong man for the job.  Hopefully, Steichen is the right man for the job and can get Ballard to wake up.  It's year 8 - one playoff appearance in 5 years, no division titles in 9 years.  No more delayed gratification.  No more turning over an entire area of the team to rookies and inexperienced players.  As PFF puts it, no more "whack a mole" every year with the roster.

its the same tired “year 8- blah blah.” They have their qb. They have a legit head coach, not a last second makeshift guy pretending to be. They were a few plays away from the division title with their qb on IR. Get him weapons. Keep him protecting (mostly from himself). Add some pieces on defense and go do the damn thing.  

[#12.]

3 hours ago, ColtStrong2013 said:

its the same tired “year 8- blah blah.” 

 

Trust me, I defended Ballard much longer than most did, but I'm sure everyone knows what the score is, including Ballard.  Either Richardson stays healthy and they compete or the Ballard era is coming to an end.  There are no 10 year plans in the NFL.  Outside of some miracle performance from another QB, if Richardson returns and is again knocked out for the season, Ballard is done.  If they go 6-11, he's done.

[NewColtsFan]

23 hours ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

 In 7 years name a corner Ballard drafted that could cover worth a darn.

I can name one. Roger's. Small with great speed. 

 Now we have a 6'3" replacement that we just watched get horribly abused by a big receiver. 

 Irsay accepts mediocrity. He has his band and money for toys.

You've already forgotten Rock Ya-Sin who graded well in two of his three seasons, and the one when he didn’t, Rock was hurt.   And Brents graded out highly in the Houston game and his entire rookie season.   
 

Ballard drafted Wilson in 17, and he’s the one corner who didn’t pan out.   But he was drafted where he was ranked.  
 

For some odd reason, you obsess over speed.   Zone corners are not required to be super fast, man corners are. 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

Rick ya Sin is playing at a very high level on the ravens. 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

 

[Solid84]

7 minutes ago, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

 

*Furiously scribbles notes for possible late round prospects for Dr. T's Annual Colts Draft Contest*

[DattMavis]

14 hours ago, Superman said:

 

I think people tend to be overly critical with the hindsight draft stuff, but yeah, AJ Brown was my favorite WR prospect in 2019. I'm not a DK guy, I get what people like, but he's a one note guy. 

 

We took Rock Ya-Sin with our first pick, and Parris Campbell with our next pick. Campbell I think could have been really good if healthy, but still, Brown was the guy IMO.

I won’t lie, I loved Parris and had him as my #3 ahead of Deebo as my #4. I expected Parris to be elite. I think injuries and Luck leaving destroyed that chance. I thought the Rock Ya-Sin pick was a reach, but oh well. No use living in the past. And although WR is the only position I seem to be good at predicting, I had Denzel Mims as my #3 in 2020, just behind CeeDee Lamb and Justin Jefferson. Sometimes you can’t trust your eyes.😂 

 

 

I just hope if somehow a miracle happens and Malik Nabers drops a little, Ballard does the right thing. Heck, I wouldn’t mind at all if we trade up to get him.

[richard pallo]

33 minutes ago, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

 

Someone had to be the first one.  Many more meetings to come.

[chad72]

1 hour ago, Solid84 said:

*Furiously scribbles notes for possible late round prospects for Dr. T's Annual Colts Draft Contest*

 

No contest entries till the RAS scores and measurements are in, lol  

 

Player 1: Plays in the SEC, has 7 PBUs, has 32 inch arms, has 8 INTs, held his ground against good WRs, RAS 8.91

 

Player 2: Plays in the Big 10, has 2 PBUs, has 34 inch arms, has 3 INTs, has been hit and miss against good WRs, RAS 9.89

 

Ballard goes for Player 2.  

[Solid84]

27 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

No contest entries till the RAS scores and measurements are in, lol  

 

Player 1: Plays in the SEC, has 7 PBUs, has 32 inch arms, has 8 INTs, held his ground against good WRs, RAS 8.91

 

Player 2: Plays in the Big 10, has 2 PBUs, has 34 inch arms, has 3 INTs, has been hit and miss against good WRs, RAS 9.89

 

Ballard goes for Player 2.  

100%

[DougDew]

2 hours ago, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

Rick ya Sin is playing at a very high level on the ravens. 

Did he already leave the Raiders and is on his 3rd team?  That's who RYS was traded to.

[Solid84]

1 hour ago, chad72 said:

 

No contest entries till the RAS scores and measurements are in, lol  

 

Player 1: Plays in the SEC, has 7 PBUs, has 32 inch arms, has 8 INTs, held his ground against good WRs, RAS 8.91

 

Player 2: Plays in the Big 10, has 2 PBUs, has 34 inch arms, has 3 INTs, has been hit and miss against good WRs, RAS 9.89

 

Ballard goes for Player 2.  

It's funny really:

1. Area of need
2. RAS 9+
3. Senior Bowl attendee
4. Team Captain

If a player checks those 4 boxes I guarantee they are high on Ballard's draft board.

[DougDew]

6 hours ago, chad72 said:

 

 

Both A J Brown and Deebo Samuel (who was putting on a clinic at the Senior Bowl) were fan forum favorites here.  

Yes, it was Deebo, thanks.  I thought Brown and Deebo would have been better options because I wanted a long term solution opposite TY at the time.  I observed that we never had that WR ever since Reggie went down, and the Funchess was just a stop gap.  I thought that a fix for WR#2 was more important than finding an immediate slot WR, who can probably be found elsewhere.

 

I'm not criticizing the pick directly since I don't know if either Deebo or Brown was available at 34 ( I think they were).  Just saying that I was unenthused with the WR solutions after the draft.  If Ballard wanted a slot, I understand targeting PC later in round 2. 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

25 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Did he already leave the Raiders and is on his 3rd team?  That's who RYS was traded to.

He has been playing at a elite level all year for ravens He was a free agent and did not stay with raiders.

[jvan1973]

28 minutes ago, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

He has been playing at a elite level all year for ravens He was a free agent and did not stay with raiders.

63 pff grade.   Not exactly elite

[NewColtsFan]

2 hours ago, chad72 said:

 

No contest entries till the RAS scores and measurements are in, lol  

 

Player 1: Plays in the SEC, has 7 PBUs, has 32 inch arms, has 8 INTs, held his ground against good WRs, RAS 8.91

 

Player 2: Plays in the Big 10, has 2 PBUs, has 34 inch arms, has 3 INTs, has been hit and miss against good WRs, RAS 9.89

 

Ballard goes for Player 2.  

EDIT: 

 

Are these real players?    Who are they?    That would be helpful.  

[w87r]

1 minute ago, NewColtsFan said:

Clearly Brents is player 2.   
 

Who is player 1? 

Player 2 is not Brents.

 

 

Think they are just random numbers?

[NewColtsFan]

9 minutes ago, w87r said:

Player 2 is not Brents.

 

 

Think they are just random numbers?

I think you’re right that P2 is not Brents. 
 

But I’d still like to know who the players are….    I assume they’re real players.  

[w87r]

3 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

I think you’re right that P2 is not Brents. 
 

But I’d still like to know who the players are….    I assume they’re real players.  

Idk?

 

Can't think of Big 10 CB Ballard has drafted of top of head.

 

 

Maybe they are current college players?

 

 

I don't think they are actual players though? Hopefully they chime in, and lets us know.

 

[NewColtsFan]

Just now, w87r said:

Idk?

 

Can't think of Big 10 CB Ballard has drafted of top of head.

 

 

Maybe they are current college players?

 

 

I don't think they are actual players though? Hopefully they chime in, and lets us know.

 

If they’re not real players then I think the post is complete nonsense.   Then again, I’d have to consider the poster who made it.   

[w87r]

Just now, NewColtsFan said:

If they’re not real players then I think the post is complete nonsense.   Then again, I’d have to consider the poster who made it.   

It's definitely not a CB that Ballard drafted, that is for sure.

 

 

Idk?

 

He led in with "no contest entries till RAS scores are in".

 

 

I don't think they are real.

[DougDew]

9 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

If they’re not real players then I think the post is complete nonsense.   Then again, I’d have to consider the poster who made it.   

Its hypothetical.  He made a valid point.

[NewColtsFan]

11 minutes ago, w87r said:

It's definitely not a CB that Ballard drafted, that is for sure.

 

 

Idk?

 

He led in with "no contest entries till RAS scores are in".

 

 

I don't think they are real.

ok….  Then I’ll have to consider the poster…   sigh...   

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

1 hour ago, jvan1973 said:

63 pff grade.   Not exactly elite

Grades are trash. It’s the statistics within those analytics that are very good.

[NewColtsFan]

7 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Its hypothetical.  He made a valid point.

I think you and I have very different views on what is a valid point.   

[throwing BBZ]

5 hours ago, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

Rick ya Sin is playing at a very high level on the ravens. 

 

 Rock started 1 game this season out of the 14 games they let him play.

He had about 270 defensive snaps . Gave up 17.7 ypc  10%+ missed tackles 

 Passer rating 109. Who will be the next sucker to sign Elite Rock?

[throwing BBZ]

6 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

You've already forgotten Rock Ya-Sin who graded well in two of his three seasons, and the one when he didn’t, Rock was hurt.   And Brents graded out highly in the Houston game and his entire rookie season.   
 

Ballard drafted Wilson in 17, and he’s the one corner who didn’t pan out.   But he was drafted where he was ranked.  
 

For some odd reason, you obsess over speed.   Zone corners are not required to be super fast, man corners are. 

 

 Well now, Rock was the first and obviously biggest CB Fail that Ballard must claim. One should remember how the Elite wrestler got smoked off the line as a rookie. All those grabs for penalties. Most understand that when you don't have the makeup speed when faster, quicker guys get away from you bad things happen.

 Sorry Rock, at his best, got better not letting guys beat him deep, but the slower/bigger CB's that Ballard lives by have to give something up. Rock was never more than average and I know I was glad to move on. 34th pick or not. If you want a good defense we had to have better.

 And we watch it play after play, game after game, year after year.

We have to play just a little deeper, a little further off, letting any old tom, dick, and Harry play pitch and catch on us. Surprise Surprise Surprise.

 Enough bad zone play, enough I thought you were taking him, to make one tire of a DC. A DC forced to play VANNILA.

  Did we play 100% zone? Chuckle 

How well were we able to defend crossers in zone or man to man?

How good were we defending screens?

 Did anyone miss former NFL Defensive Player of the Year Gilmore? Guess what, receivers couldn't get away from him.

 He took their best receiver one on one. How could he do that running a 4.53 40?  You can't. He ran 4.4.

 ANYONE with a lick of football sense knows when a corner doesn't need safety help it gives you a player that can be used to mix coverages, Surprise the o-line, Surprise the QB by being where you weren't supposed to be. 

  Ballard, your version of Richard Sherman, Cam Chancellor and Earl Thomas is Pathetic. A Joke!

.

[Solid84]

1 hour ago, NewColtsFan said:

EDIT: 

 

Are these real players?    Who are they?    That would be helpful.  

I read it as (and responded to it on the basis of it being) a made up scenario, though exaggerated.

 

Ballard has consistently chosen RAS/Upside over production.

[NewColtsFan]

29 minutes ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

 Well now, Rock was the first and obviously biggest CB Fail that Ballard must claim. One should remember how the Elite wrestler got smoked off the line as a rookie. All those grabs for penalties. Most understand that when you don't have the makeup speed when faster, quicker guys get away from you bad things happen.

 Sorry Rock, at his best, got better not letting guys beat him deep, but the slower/bigger CB's that Ballard lives by have to give something up. Rock was never more than average and I know I was glad to move on. 34th pick or not. If you want a good defense we had to have better.

 And we watch it play after play, game after game, year after year.

We have to play just a little deeper, a little further off, letting any old tom, dick, and Harry play pitch and catch on us. Surprise Surprise Surprise.

 Enough bad zone play, enough I thought you were taking him, to make one tire of a DC. A DC forced to play VANNILA.

  Did we play 100% zone? Chuckle 

How well were we able to defend crossers in zone or man to man?

How good were we defending screens?

 Did anyone miss former NFL Defensive Player of the Year Gilmore? Guess what, receivers couldn't get away from him.

 He took their best receiver one on one. How could he do that running a 4.53 40?  You can't. He ran 4.4.

 ANYONE with a lick of football sense knows when a corner doesn't need safety help it gives you a player that can be used to mix coverages, Surprise the o-line, Surprise the QB by being where you weren't supposed to be. 

  Ballard, your version of Richard Sherman, Cam Chancellor and Earl Thomas is Pathetic. A Joke!

.

What a surprise, we completely disagree.   Here’s how crazy your response is….   You started by talking about the corners Ballard had drafted.  And ended by talking about Stephen Gilmore, a Ballard free agent.  (Chuckle).  And you rambled into style of defense which is a separate topic altogether that had nothing to do with your original post.  (Chuckle)

 

We’re just going to have to agree to disagree.   You know, like always.  

[throwing BBZ]

20 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

What a surprise, we completely disagree.   Here’s how crazy your response is….   You started by talking about the corners Ballard had drafted.  And ended by talking about Stephen Gilmore, a Ballard free agent.  (Chuckle).  And you rambled into style of defense which is a separate topic altogether that had nothing to do with your original post.  (Chuckle)

 

We’re just 

 

  Actually it had everything to do with the subject.

 Sadly, like Leonard, you've lost a step. You can't keep up as you once could.

  It's been noticeable this whole season, there has been a change.

 The board is weaker because of it. I would wish that you and yours are well.

 

 Sorry but Brents stats are not so good. And that against mediocre competition. He will make some plays, but with his lack of quickness and speed the really good QB's will play some easy for a first down, fun pitch and catch on him, and he will require that safety to cover his behind.

 In Ballard's system he could be a little above average soon, but our opponents should be able to successfully attack his weaknesses.

[NewColtsFan]

1 hour ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

 Nice touch.   You’ve added a cheap shot attack to your standard repertoire of complete nonsense.  You couldn’t answer my comments so you attack me.   Nice touch. 
 

Either way, Brents graded out well for a rookie who played less than 50 percent of the snaps.   I think he graded out in the upper 80’s in the Houston game that you can’t get past.    There was a story about it on the front of the website. 
 

Either way, we agree on almost nothing.   We should probably work harder to avoid each other. 
 

Good luck. 

[DougDew]

13 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

I think you and I have very different views on what is a valid point.   

I read it as saying that Ballard would choose RAS over college production.  You might not, but many people share that opinion.

[shasta519]

20 hours ago, #12. said:

 

Trust me, I defended Ballard much longer than most did, but I'm sure everyone knows what the score is, including Ballard.  Either Richardson stays healthy and they compete or the Ballard era is coming to an end.  There are no 10 year plans in the NFL.  Outside of some miracle performance from another QB, if Richardson returns and is again knocked out for the season, Ballard is done.  If they go 6-11, he's done.

 

They didn't win a game he finished. Perhaps they end up winning the other two where he got hurt. But still, that's just 2-2. 

 

AR could stay healthy and they win 6-8 games. The schedule adjustment is probably worth a win or two on its own, assuming those teams are still good. 

 

I would bet their Vegas O/U wins will be 7.5. So I don't think 7-8 wins is really that pessimistic before we have more in-season information. But anything below that and I think Ballard's seat gets very warm. Not to mention Irsay's health situation. That could become a huge variable if his daughter/s take over the team.

[Superman]

20 hours ago, chad72 said:

 

No contest entries till the RAS scores and measurements are in, lol  

 

Player 1: Plays in the SEC, has 7 PBUs, has 32 inch arms, has 8 INTs, held his ground against good WRs, RAS 8.91

 

Player 2: Plays in the Big 10, has 2 PBUs, has 34 inch arms, has 3 INTs, has been hit and miss against good WRs, RAS 9.89

 

Ballard goes for Player 2.  

 

I get your point, and I'm assuming it's partly tongue in cheek, but I want to counter as a point of discussion.

 

First, I don't think this is a representation of real player evaluation. I think it's the way a lot of fans view draft prospects, but I think NFL teams evaluate by watching the prospects play, and matching what they see with what they know about the player and the team he's on. For example, it's likely that Player 1 has better coaching and better teammates, which contributes to his production and performance. Being able to make that distinction requires being familiar with the respective rosters, staffs, and schemes of both teams. And that level of nuance is something that most people on the Internet can't be bothered with. But the total evaluation could easily lead a staff to believe that Player 2 is the better prospect, and it's not simply about the RAS score.

 

Second, to get in the weeds on the RAS thing... There are about 20,000 scholarship players in every year class in D1 football. About 400 of them will make it to the NFL, and about half of those will last more than two seasons in the NFL. The overwhelming majority of the rest are simply not good enough physically -- not big enough, fast enough, strong enough, or not willing/able to maximize the physical talents they have. 

 

Athletic testing and physical measurements are a way to determine a baseline of ability, and RAS is a composite of that testing. We have decades of testing, and can analyze what traits are common among successful players at their respective positions. It makes sense to apply that knowledge to scouting, and I would bet that the majority of players who are at the bottom end of testing don't even make it, let alone have significant success. And then, for the outlier standout performers who don't test well, there are other questions to be considered. Was the performance mostly based on favorable circumstances, or is there a significant trait/ability that makes up for other deficiencies?

 

Long story short, there is an obvious correlation between testing and NFL success, and RAS is kind of a representation of testing that makes it somewhat easier to digest and compare athletic prospects. But I don't think any decisions are being made solely on the basis of that comparison.

[NewColtsFan]

4 hours ago, DougDew said:

I read it as saying that Ballard would choose RAS over college production.  You might not, but many people share that opinion.

Doug….    It was a loaded question.   It was designed to infer an obvious right answer and an obvious wrong answer,  and that Ballard picks the wrong answer.   Hence the loaded question aspect.  
 

It’s simple and superficial.   Check out @Superman analysis of RAS and how it factors in the draft process.   I think that’s a far more reasonable and nuanced viewpoint. 
 

 

[DougDew]

5 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

Doug….    It was a loaded question.   It was designed to infer an obvious right answer and an obvious wrong answer,  and that Ballard picks the wrong answer.   Hence the loaded question aspect.  
 

It’s simple and superficial.   Check out @Superman analysis of RAS and how it factors in the draft process.   I think that’s a far more reasonable and nuanced viewpoint. 
 

 

You don't have to explain it to me.  It was humorous hyperbole with a degree of truth at the root, which is why it was funny.   I didn't read it as an absolute, but I hardly ever read anything on this forum that way. 

[chad72]

3 hours ago, Superman said:

 

I get your point, and I'm assuming it's partly tongue in cheek, but I want to counter as a point of discussion.

 

First, I don't think this is a representation of real player evaluation. I think it's the way a lot of fans view draft prospects, but I think NFL teams evaluate by watching the prospects play, and matching what they see with what they know about the player and the team he's on. For example, it's likely that Player 1 has better coaching and better teammates, which contributes to his production and performance. Being able to make that distinction requires being familiar with the respective rosters, staffs, and schemes of both teams. And that level of nuance is something that most people on the Internet can't be bothered with. But the total evaluation could easily lead a staff to believe that Player 2 is the better prospect, and it's not simply about the RAS score.

 

Second, to get in the weeds on the RAS thing... There are about 20,000 scholarship players in every year class in D1 football. About 400 of them will make it to the NFL, and about half of those will last more than two seasons in the NFL. The overwhelming majority of the rest are simply not good enough physically -- not big enough, fast enough, strong enough, or not willing/able to maximize the physical talents they have. 

 

Athletic testing and physical measurements are a way to determine a baseline of ability, and RAS is a composite of that testing. We have decades of testing, and can analyze what traits are common among successful players at their respective positions. It makes sense to apply that knowledge to scouting, and I would bet that the majority of players who are at the bottom end of testing don't even make it, let alone have significant success. And then, for the outlier standout performers who don't test well, there are other questions to be considered. Was the performance mostly based on favorable circumstances, or is there a significant trait/ability that makes up for other deficiencies?

 

Long story short, there is an obvious correlation between testing and NFL success, and RAS is kind of a representation of testing that makes it somewhat easier to digest and compare athletic prospects. But I don't think any decisions are being made solely on the basis of that comparison.

 

Thank you for engaging in a non-grumpy way.

 

I feel RAS is/was used far too much as a tie breaker, not as the sole criteria (not advocating to go after 5-7 RAS players at all, no that is not what I am saying), because I can't explain away Ben Banogu and Kemoko Turay (am sure I can give more examples if I dig deeper into my research). I get drafting them but not as early as they were drafted. Day 3, like Adetomiwa Adebawore they drafted in 2023, I could understand but we haven't gotten enough contributors from Day 2 of the draft over the years. Maybe Ballard was refining his own draft process, learning on the job as some say, to not take swings too early on projects. Tyquan Lewis, it took several years for him to come to his element. There was a reason Robert Mathis was drafted in Round 4. That is when upside players should be drafted, IMO. If you hit, by all means, credit to the GM for taking the flier but if it busts, it doesn't cost the team other quality players you could have had earlier instead of pursuing players more for the upside than what they have done.

 

I love Alec Pierce but his 9.8 versus Josh Downs' 8.99 RAS, hasn't truly been reflective of their NFL success. No, I am not ready to give up on Pierce and I do understand Minshew is a big part of him being held back. But in Year 1 of Downs, you can see which player stepped up and made the bigger impact. Yeah, it was a bit tongue in cheek but also in part due to how few difference makers we have on our roster and every Day 1/Day 2 draft miss takes another 2-3 years to change/reverse course with other moves, which is why we haven't truly made noise for our division. 

 

Maybe the others want me to just shake Pom-Poms, not happening with me.

[DattMavis]

23 hours ago, jvan1973 said:

63 pff grade.   Not exactly elite

I think it’s fair to critique PFF’s grades, but I actually agree with this. He is helped greatly by the rest of the defense, especially the LBs who help a lot in coverage.

[stitches]

On 1/17/2024 at 9:31 PM, Solid84 said:

*Furiously scribbles notes for possible late round prospects for Dr. T's Annual Colts Draft Contest*

Last year was amazing for the forum, we had insanely high hit ratio in the draft contest. I think to some degree we are getting used to what Ballard likes.