Ballard's Decision to Not Draft Darrisaw...

[NFLfan]

14 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

What in the world?   Re-read my post. 

 

Ballard literally said the words,  that our top three choices at pick 21 were Paye, Darrisaw and Dayo.    It’s on video tape.   I’ve posted about this many times since the draft.   I’m not wrong about this. 
 

The point I made did NOT need to be left out. Facts don’t need to be left out.  Truth doesn’t need to be left out.  I don’t understand your thinking in this at all?   I’ve been a member here for nearly 10 years and no moderator has ever responded this way.  

 

Thanks. I did not say you were wrong. I'm sorry if you saw it that way.

 

Next time I will not quote you. My comments are for everyone. You were not the one who wrote "silly". 

 

Anyway, let me stop as I don't want to encourage a back and forth and get away from the topic.

 

[NFLfan]

2 minutes ago, Fluke_33 said:

Bill polian has said that after qb, the pass rush is most important.   After that protecting the qb comes.  
 

I think disrupting the other teams passing is nearly as important as your passing game 

 

That makes sense. 

[NFLfan]

3 hours ago, masterlock said:

Ballard's stated reason for not drafting a left tackle in 2021--that there was no one who fit the mold of a "prototypical" left tackle

 

Do you have a citation? It seems many do not recall him saying that. I tried to find it and found nothing. 

 

Thanks.

[NewColtsFan]

11 minutes ago, NFLfan said:

 

Thanks. I did not say you were wrong. I'm sorry if you saw it that way.

 

Next time I will not quote you. My comments are for everyone. You were not the one who wrote "silly". 

 

Anyway, let me stop as I don't want to encourage a back and forth and get away from the topic.

 

Im sorry if I hit heated with you.   I believe you will find that in all of my posts in this thread, I’ve been respectful to the OP.   I’ve made no mean comments to him or about him.  
 

I’ve called his position a misunderstanding of whatever Ballard said back in late April.   I’ve pointed out that we indeed liked Darrisaw as Ballard said he was our second choice behind Paye.   I’ve only tried to repeat my views because I’ve received zero response from the OP despite my reaching out directly to him in a respectful way,  and I also wanted to respond to other posters in the conversation.
 

I’ll drop out here.  I don’t think there’s much more to say.     Thank you.  

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

24 minutes ago, NFLfan said:

 

Do you have a citation? It seems many do not recall him saying that. I tried to find it and found nothing. 

 

Thanks.

He said it a few times.

[Thunderbolt]

At the time, GMs go with their video and opinion of their scouts. So, they felt that Paye would be an impactful player at the outset.

There is a tremendous upside with him in moving forward, so he was selected, it's just a matter of time when we see the impact he will have in the future.  I believe it's a hit and miss not only in free agency, but in the draft as well. "Shoulda, Coulda, Woulda" just move on and learn from your past experience...It might take a little time, but the future is now for some of us fans....

[NFLfan]

14 minutes ago, TaylorTheStudMuffin said:

He said it a few times.

 

I have not found a credible citation to show that.

 

As I was researching for it, I found that Ballard said 2021 may be the deepest draft for OL. 

 

Quote

2021's NFL Draft will be a showcase for a deep class of offensive linemen — "as good as I’ve seen in a while," Ballard said — which means the Colts will have options if they choose to address their left tackle spot via the pick.

Link to article

 

The article also pointed out that Ballard seemed happy with two possible guys for LT who were already on the team -- Tevi and Davenport.

 

[Colts1324]

I’m confused. Paye looks really good. He showed a lot of promise & consistently brought pressure. He just needs to get better at finishing plays. Most rookie pass rushers don’t do AMAZING their first year 

[WoolMagnet]

3 hours ago, masterlock said:

I'll preface my remarks by saying I don't dislike Kwity Paye. Great kid, great story, lots of potential. Could very well blossom into a star pass rusher. That said, there's something that just BUGS me about Ballard's stated reason for not drafting a left tackle in 2021--that there was no one who fit the mold of a "prototypical" left tackle. Here's a quick comparison...

 

Measurables:

• Christian Darrisaw: 6'5", 313 lbs., 34.25" arms
• Anthony Castonzo: 6'7", 305 lbs., 34.25" arms
• Eric Fisher: 6'7", 306 lbs., 34.5" arms

 

So, a 2-inch difference in height was the deal-breaker? Really? Or was it some other attribute, like lateral quickness, ability to steer defenders, etc? What glaring reason was there for why Darrisaw didn’t fit the mold of a "prototypical" LT at the NFL level? Most scouts saw him as a LT (including those at Minnesota). When the dust settled in 2021, here's how things shook out...

 

2021 Results (I don't have all the stats because I don't subscribe to PFF):

• Darrisaw: Earned a 71.8 PFF grade, allowed 22 pressures in 11 games, and 1 sack for every 124 snaps played.
• Fisher: Earned a 68.6 PFF grade, allowed 39 pressures in 15 games and 1 sack for every 130 snaps played.

 

And bear in mind, Darrisaw was a freakin' ROOKIE. I realize Fisher was coming off an achilles tear, which maybe affected his ability to play at 100 percent. But that's precisely the point: You take a 30-year old tackle coming off an achilles tear, in the twilight years of his career, over a promising, young prospect who had the measurables, who had only upside, and who would've addressed the second-most important position in football. It just doesn't make sense to me. But hey, what do I know? I'm just some random fan. Feel free to criticize.

Who would u have drafted/brought in at edge then?

They obviously had Paye rated higher.

1 minute ago, Colts1324 said:

I’m confused. Paye looks really good. He showed a lot of promise & consistently brought pressure. He just needs to get better at finishing plays. Most rookie pass rushers don’t do AMAZING their first year 

Freeney took some time.

[Four2itus]

1 hour ago, NFLfan said:

 

Paye was great. He made opposing players paye. 

 

Masterlock wrote that he disagreed with how Ballard evaluated Darrisaw. That's it.

I get it...sort of. But the underlying notion cannot be evaluated....until we see the experienced product of both players. Also, how does he know how much value that Ballard saw in Darrisaw?  Chosing Paye does not define how much value...but rather what he saw as the long term value of both in comparison. 

[NFLfan]

I guess I am confused. The OP, if it is accurate, says that Ballard's reason for not drafting Darrisaw was because Darrisaw was not a prototypical LT. It seems that everyone reading that post interpreted as a criticism of the player that Ballard selected (Paye).

 

Okay. Let's look at it another way. Say, it is this coming draft and there is someone like Darrisaw, what would you say if Ballard called him "not a prototypical LT" (if that is what he said. Big "IF")? Would it concern you?

 

7 minutes ago, Four2itus said:

Chosing Paye does not define how much value...but rather what he saw as the long term value of both in comparison

 

He never said that it did. Maybe I am reading it wrong but the OP does not seem to agree on how Darrisaw was evaluated. He said Ballard said Darrisaw was not a prototypical LT. (Not sure if Ballard actually said that, as I cannot find it.) 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

15 minutes ago, NFLfan said:

 

I have not found a credible citation to show that.

 

As I was researching for it, I found that Ballard said 2021 may be the deepest draft for OL. 

 

Link to article

 

The article also pointed out that Ballard seemed happy with two possible guys for LT who were already on the team -- Tevi and Davenport.

 

After the draft he was asked multiple times about the LT position. He flat out said you guys asked me about the draft bring loaded with tackles which was true but didn’t ask me about LT. Then went on about there not being a lot natural LT. I am sure it’s in one of his draft pressers after the draft. Maybe the one after the last day.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

17 minutes ago, Colts1324 said:

I’m confused. Paye looks really good. He showed a lot of promise & consistently brought pressure. He just needs to get better at finishing plays. Most rookie pass rushers don’t do AMAZING their first year 

We needed both. The only way this is even a serious question is if Paye stunk.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

@NFLfanHerr is the one presser after the draft where he mentions they didn’t think there was a typical left tackle who could play there his entire career. If they had paye and Darrisaw scored the same I am always taking the DE. It starts here around the 9:15 mark. Pretty sure there is another one I am still trying to find.

 

 

[ColtV]

4 hours ago, masterlock said:

I'll preface my remarks by saying I don't dislike Kwity Paye. Great kid, great story, lots of potential. Could very well blossom into a star pass rusher. That said, there's something that just BUGS me about Ballard's stated reason for not drafting a left tackle in 2021--that there was no one who fit the mold of a "prototypical" left tackle. Here's a quick comparison...

 

Measurables:

• Christian Darrisaw: 6'5", 313 lbs., 34.25" arms
• Anthony Castonzo: 6'7", 305 lbs., 34.25" arms
• Eric Fisher: 6'7", 306 lbs., 34.5" arms

 

So, a 2-inch difference in height was the deal-breaker? Really? Or was it some other attribute, like lateral quickness, ability to steer defenders, etc? What glaring reason was there for why Darrisaw didn’t fit the mold of a "prototypical" LT at the NFL level? Most scouts saw him as a LT (including those at Minnesota). When the dust settled in 2021, here's how things shook out...

 

2021 Results (I don't have all the stats because I don't subscribe to PFF):

• Darrisaw: Earned a 71.8 PFF grade, allowed 22 pressures in 11 games, and 1 sack for every 124 snaps played.
• Fisher: Earned a 68.6 PFF grade, allowed 39 pressures in 15 games and 1 sack for every 130 snaps played.

 

And bear in mind, Darrisaw was a freakin' ROOKIE. I realize Fisher was coming off an achilles tear, which maybe affected his ability to play at 100 percent. But that's precisely the point: You take a 30-year old tackle coming off an achilles tear, in the twilight years of his career, over a promising, young prospect who had the measurables, who had only upside, and who would've addressed the second-most important position in football. It just doesn't make sense to me. But hey, what do I know? I'm just some random fan. Feel free to criticize.

I was a proponent of drafting Darrisaw when he was available in that slot,  and vocally on draft night derided the Paye selection...but it's all water under the bridge now. Paye is here and Darrisaw isn't. 

[NewColtsFan]

1 hour ago, NFLfan said:

 

Do you have a citation? It seems many do not recall him saying that. I tried to find it and found nothing. 

 

Thanks.

I've just spent the last half hour looking at Ballard interviews.   That’s not what he said.  It’s a mis-remember.   

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

Just now, NewColtsFan said:

I've just spent the last half hour looking at Ballard interviews.   That’s not what he said.  It’s a mis-remember.   

I found it. Starts at about 915.

 

 

[LJpalmbeacher2]

3 hours ago, TaylorTheStudMuffin said:

I am taking a DE over a OT every day if they are both a need.

 

Practically every day or two someone here says Griggs broke Luck and he retired because of the OL.

I don't personally agree with the above but a decent pass blocking line, especially a LT is needed. 

Our 2021 OL ranked 30th in pass blocking, that needs to improve or Ballard will break Wentz and/or other QB's that will take snaps.

 

[GoColts8818]

Had he people would be complaining he ignored the pass rush.  He had two big holes to fill he picked one.  

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

1 minute ago, GoColts8818 said:

Had he people would be complaining he ignored the pass rush.  He had two big holes to fill he picked one.  

Imagine we draft Darrisaw and Paye is lighting it up with another team. Fans would be trashing it after a bad pass rush this year.

[NewColtsFan]

1 minute ago, LJpalmbeacher2 said:

 

Practically every day or two someone here says Griggs broke Luck and he retired because of the OL.

I don't personally agree with the above but a decent pass blocking line, especially a LT is needed. 

Our 2021 OL ranked 30th in pass blocking, that needs to improve or Ballard will break Wentz and/or other QB's that will take snaps.

 

We’ve not been that bad pass blocking in the 10 years I’ve been following the Colts closely. We should be much better pass blocking next year.   As we were in 18, 19, and 20.   
 

2021 was due to injuries all along the OL. 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

3 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

We’ve not been that bad pass blocking in the 10 years I’ve been following the Colts closely. We should be much better pass blocking next year.   As we were in 18, 19, and 20.   
 

2021 was due to injuries all along the OL. 

Everyone can trash Fisher too and it’s deserved but he came in with no camp ect. Had to learn all the pass blocking schemes on the fly. 

[PRnum1]

22 minutes ago, TaylorTheStudMuffin said:

I found it. Starts at about 915.

 

 

Thank you. I know I didn't dream it up.

 

So Ballard did say it

[hoosierhawk]

3 hours ago, jbaron04 said:

I agree with you , Paye was all rookie team and had flashes , Leno was the clear cut easy move never missed a game abv average starter etc… and you choose fisher who was never a top LT even when healthy and never lived up to his #1 overall selection coming off and achilles injury at his age which is known to end careers by default and his second major injury in two years 

Was a probowl selection in both 2018 and 2020. That's not top level?

[NFLfan]

He is referring to the evaluation of a player, not necessarily who was actually  taken. 

 

In 2004 Arizona selects Larry Fitzgerald at #3. Say the GM says we did not draft Philip Rivers or Ben Roethlisberger because we do not believe they are prototypical quarterbacks. If a fan says I disagree with that statement and gives stats and figures from college and  the Combine to show these are prototypical quarterbacks, would you all reply as you have here? Would you say, "Larry had a great season?" That is basically what many are doing here, dismissing his point altogether.

 

[jbaron04]

2 minutes ago, hoosierhawk said:

Was a probowl selection in both 2018 and 2020. That's not top level?

Lol , pro bowl is a popularity contest 

 

2018 he graded out 23/80 with 74.9

2020 he graded out 16/80 with 80.1 

 

but was never one of the top tackles 16/80 is the highest he ever been , his average over his career would be somewhere around 35/80 tackle ranking

[jbaron04]

4 minutes ago, NFLfan said:

He is referring to the evaluation of a player, not necessarily who was actually  taken. 

 

In 2004 Arizona selects Larry Fitzgerald at #3. Say the GM says we did not draft Philip Rivers or Ben Roethlisberger because we do not believe they are prototypical quarterbacks. If a fan says I disagree with that statement and gives stats and figures from college and  the Combine to show these are prototypical quarterbacks, would you all reply as you have here? Would you say, "Larry had a great season?" That is basically what many are doing here, dismissing his point altogether.

 

I’m not getting what his point is we needed tackle and De both was major needs and we went De who was ranked higher on board and thought would have higher ceiling. We all knew coming into the off-season we had a lot of needs and could not fill them all in one offseason 

[Solid84]

3 minutes ago, jbaron04 said:

Lol , pro bowl is a popularity contest 

 

2018 he graded out 23/80 with 74.9

2020 he graded out 16/80 with 80.1 

 

but was never one of the top tackles 16/80 is the highest he ever been , his average over his career would be somewhere around 35/80 tackle ranking

Thank you, was looking for these numbers.

 

Far as I can tell he's never been more than average as a pass blocker.

[hoosierhawk]

13 minutes ago, jbaron04 said:

Lol , pro bowl is a popularity contest 

 

2018 he graded out 23/80 with 74.9

2020 he graded out 16/80 with 80.1 

 

but was never one of the top tackles 16/80 is the highest he ever been , his average over his career would be somewhere around 35/80 tackle ranking

Your opinion. So the pro bowl is just a popularity contest. First I ever heard that.

[jbaron04]

13 minutes ago, hoosierhawk said:

Your opinion. So the pro bowl is just a popularity contest. First I ever heard that.

Your honest opinion should Ryan kelly and big Q had made the probowl this year?

[Four2itus]

1 hour ago, NFLfan said:

Okay. Let's look at it another way. Say, it is this coming draft and there is someone like Darrisaw, what would you say if Ballard called him "not a prototypical LT" (if that is what he said. Big "IF")? Would it concern you?

Not until I see 3 year results. 

[AwesomeAustin]

5 hours ago, NFLfan said:

 

Why? (Serious question. I like to understand one's thinking.)

 

I value DE over OT bc I believe there are more good OTs than DEs. We just traded a 6th for Pryor who filled in nicely.  Leno was available cheap on the open market. You don’t find too many good DEs. Always exceptions but for the most part unless you want to pay big in FA, you need to draft or trade for a DE.  
 

Saying that I still think the three keys to winning in order are protect your QB, get after their QB and get the ball from them and give back to your QB 

[Four2itus]

46 minutes ago, NFLfan said:

He is referring to the evaluation of a player, not necessarily who was actually  taken. 

Again...it's too soon to give an evaluation. Ballard (if he said it), could be right that said player is not a prototypical T. 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

56 minutes ago, NFLfan said:

He is referring to the evaluation of a player, not necessarily who was actually  taken. 

 

In 2004 Arizona selects Larry Fitzgerald at #3. Say the GM says we did not draft Philip Rivers or Ben Roethlisberger because we do not believe they are prototypical quarterbacks. If a fan says I disagree with that statement and gives stats and figures from college and  the Combine to show these are prototypical quarterbacks, would you all reply as you have here? Would you say, "Larry had a great season?" That is basically what many are doing here, dismissing his point altogether.

 

This was after the draft. He never would of bright that up if that was the case. I will keep looking because I know there are more.   

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

I mean he is saying here there were no natural LT and didn’t think most could play there full time. This was after the draft when asked why he didn’t take one.

 

Look, any time you have a player like Anthony Castonzo retire, it’s a need,” Ballard said, via Bob Kravitz of TheAthletic.com. “Having said that, it just didn’t match up at that point in the draft. I’ll be honest, how many true left tackles were there in this draft? … Prototypically, maybe some of these guys are going to play left tackle; let’s see if they stay there their whole careers. But if you’re going to draft a guy that high, and you’re drafting him to play left tackle, you’ve got to know he’s going to be able to do it his whole career.”

[stitches]

I have no problem with the Paye pick. I thought he was a great pick at the time and I still think he'a a great pick. The merits of that pick will be determined with what Paye turns out to be, not what Darrisaw turns out to be. 

[NFLfan]

22 minutes ago, Four2itus said:

Not until I see 3 year results. 

 

Evaluation before the draft is important. Teams invest a lot to evaluate players before the draft. I get what you are saying. That still does not address the OP's question. I'm not sure how to explain it. Maybe I am missing something. 

[NewColtsFan]

Ballard was talking about the LT position group as a whole.   He did NOT say there were no Left Tackles.   He said there weren’t many, and some that will be LT’s in the NFL likely won’t be for very long.   
 

Here’s two examples….  Leatherwood for LV, started at LT, then went to RT, and finished the season at RG.   He was picked 17th. 
 

Jenkins was said to be the Bears LT of the future.  He fell to the 2nd round and I think the luck was roughly 39.   The Bears let Leno walk out the door for NOTHING!   Jenkins played some right tackle.   Not clear yet where he’ll be in 22, but they signed Peters, who is 39, so maybe Jenkins gets his shot this coming season, or maybe not.  

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

4 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

Ballard was talking about the LT position group as a whole.   He did NOT say there were no Left Tackles.   He said there weren’t many, and some that will be LT’s in the NFL likely won’t be for very long.   
 

Here’s two examples….  Leatherwood for LV, started at LT, then went to RT, and finished the season at RG.   He was picked 17th. 
 

Jenkins was said to be the Bears LT of the future.  They let Leno walk out the door for NOTHING!   Jenkins played some tight tackle.   Not clear yet where he’ll be in 22, but they signed Peters, who is 39, so maybe Jenkins gets his shot thus coming season, or maybe not.  

It was after the draft and he was asked about LT. It’s not hard to figure out from what he said there were none he liked. There was one they were thinking of taking in the second but got drafted before we picked. There is more he said I just have to find it. Otherwise he doesn’t say what he said.

[NewColtsFan]

2 minutes ago, TaylorTheStudMuffin said:

It was after the draft and he was asked about LT. It’s not hard to figure out from what he said there were none he liked. There was one they were thinking of taking in the second but got drafted before we picked. There is more he said I just have to find it. Otherwise he doesn’t say what he said.

It doesn’t look like you and I agree on what Ballard said or meant.  So it would appear harder than it looks.   But you and I didn’t agree in what Irsay said,  or what Reich said.   So we’re 0 for 3 just recently.  
 

No, I don’t think he said he only liked one left tackle.   Those words were not spoken.  That’s your interpretation.