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14 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

 

Taylor up the gut is not really what people are talking about when saying "RZ playmaker".....

 

We lack a RZ play caller. Taylor only succeeds when our OL can dominate, or when we have a good mix of plays so opponents don't stack.

We agree on that about TAylor.  He’s not good at YAc or making people miss.  This is supported by metrics.  He’s a speed guy.  He’s like someone said earlier a bigger better Donald brown.

 

he reminds me a lot of Sproles.  Watch some Sproles tape, both rushing and receiving.  Looks just like him only a few inches taller which is funny cause he’s short.  Not. A dominant red zone pile mover at the point of attack.

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3 minutes ago, Wentzszn said:

He was with Jacoby too. They  barely dropped in red zone percentage with Jacoby. It went down maybe 2%. It was very small compared to what the QB drop off was from Luck and Jacoby. I seen the tweet with all these stats early in the season. I will see if I can find it. 

 

I mean Gardner Minshew had better RZ stats in the same time period...

3 minutes ago, Wentzszn said:

He was with Jacoby too. They  barely dropped in red zone percentage with Jacoby. It went down maybe 2%. It was very small compared to what the QB drop off was from Luck and Jacoby. I seen the tweet with all these stats early in the season.I will see if I can find it

 

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2 minutes ago, SteelCityColt said:

 

I mean Gardner Minshew had better RZ stats in the same time period...

 

I believe the colts were 5th with Luck  and 7th with Jacoby. Still looking to see if I can find it. But the outlier was last season and I still believe it will get better as the season goes along. I could be proven wrong but I do feel confident it will. I thought the offense would eventually get it together and they are getting better every week. 

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41 minutes ago, AustinnKaine said:

And the Chiefs includes Mahomes?

 

If we are gonna cherry pick who should and shouldn't be included in our success, where would it end? You can't say that because he hit on player x, y , z he shouldn't be given credit. 

 

Actually, I don't even think what you are saying is logical. Of course the players he hit on should be included. Because every other team has outlier players they hit on too. 

The post i was referring to said we have had some weak drafts in the last couple years.  That is true imo, if you go back to 2017 then it looks better 

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27 minutes ago, AustinnKaine said:

Okay so can you give me examples of alpha talent WR in the league? I can honestly only think of a few, im not trying to be funny. 

 

Metkalf,

CantGuardMike

Mike evans - questionable? 

Julio Jones

AJ Brown - on his way? 

Hopkins? - outlier

Davantae Adams?

 

There is a lot of compounding things here that really make this hard to think about. example: Adams has Rodgers. Hopkins is unique like Derrick Henry. If I had to trim this list down to the best two players?

 

Metkalf and Hopkins? I mean you want us to have one of the best WR in the league? Doesn't every team want the same thing? 

Sure man no problem.

 

buff diggs

kc hill and kelce

tb Evans and gronk and Godwin and brown lol

gb adams

lar cupp and lesser extent woods

tn brown and jones

az. Hopkins 

minn theilen Jefferson


 

I don’t think we have a receiver as good as any of these teams in the RZ.  

 

 

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2 minutes ago, Wentzszn said:

I believe the colts were 5th with Luck  and 7th with Jacoby. Still looking to see if I can find it. But the outlier was last season and I still believe it will get better as the season goes along. I could be proven wrong but I do feel confident it will. I thought the offense would eventually get it together and they are getting better every week. 

 

5th and 7th by what metric though. If it's just points scored % that includes kicks. 

 

Go look at red zone passing and there's quite a drop off from Luck to JB and Rivers wasn't much better.

 

Now that precludes the running game of course, but Hines.up the gut is money right?

4 minutes ago, Wentzszn said:

Here are the numbers.

 

They were 5th in the NFL in 2018. (68.75%)

And were 6th in the NFL in 2019. (64.29)

Last year they were 17th under Rivers. (58.33%)

 What metric...

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9 minutes ago, Wentzszn said:

Let’s let things work out. When there was no camp with Wentz this wasn’t going to just all of a sudden be great.  Wentz is also responsible for the mixing of plays and getting them in the right play. This could all work itself out in a few weeks. Reich was very good in the red zone with Luck and Jacoby. With rivers it was understandable.

LOL... more advice to let things work out... 

 

Sorry.. things may work out, hope they do, but no hurt in talking about them...

 

In 2018, Reich basically left our offense alone, and Luck pretty much had full control. 

In 2019, we played bully ball with arguably the best OL in the league.

In 2020 we got super conservative in away games (bottom 5 RZO), but had one of the best RZ% at home (top 5). 

 

Last I looked, Wentz was bottom 10ish in RZ passing attempts. And most of those seem like RB tosses. Allen for instance had more than double the pass attempts in the RZ.

 

8 minutes ago, Wentzszn said:

Here are the numbers.

 

They were 5th in the NFL in 2018. (68.75%)

And were 6th in the NFL in 2019. (64.29)

Last year they were 17th under Rivers. (58.33%)

see above

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1 minute ago, EastStreet said:

LOL... more advice to let things work out... 

 

Sorry.. things may work out, hope they do, but no hurt in talking about them...

 

In 2018, Reich basically left our offense alone, and Luck pretty much had full control. 

In 2019, we played bully ball with arguably the best OL in the league.

In 2020 we got super conservative in away games (bottom 5 RZO), but had one of the best RZ% at home (top 5). 

 

Last I looked, Wentz was bottom 10ish in RZ passing attempts. And most of those seem like RB tosses. Allen for instance had more than double the pass attempts in the RZ.

 

see above

Pretty sure he has the same trust in Wentz as he did Luck. At least it will eventually come to that with him getting more comfy. I am just not going to draw conclusions on 6 games. I need most of the season to make any conclusions on that. I was actually the same way with Jacoby. I needed to see a full season of work.  Turned out he failed. Reich had one off season with rivers. Rivers mobility hurt the red zone productivity. 
 

Wentz can also check out of passing plays info running plays. So it’s not all on Reich. 

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39 minutes ago, Wentzszn said:

Pittman has his Lockett now with Hilton back. If Hilton can stay healthy that will be huge. But we need to find his compliment after the season. My guess is TY might retire. With Campbell not staying healthy we almost need to bring TY back another year and draft his replacement.

Also if you don’t think Pittman is a alpha talent you haven’t been watching him play.

Pittman has 2 career tds man.  He’s a bigger guy but not real tall, and ain’t great at routes.  I honestly don’t understand your basis for calling him an alpha type of receiver.  Like for real.  And I think the dude is a pretty good player.  

 

Sometimes people think guys should be thrown to more but then you go back and look at tape and see the guys don’t present great targets down close to the rz.


 

ty is a good example.  He’s been our best receiver but was NEVER  big TD maker.

 

 

 

 

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9 minutes ago, SteelCityColt said:

 

5th and 7th by what metric though. If it's just points scored % that includes kicks. 

 

Go look at red zone passing and there's quite a drop off from Luck to JB and Rivers wasn't much better.

 

Now that precludes the running game of course, but Hines.up the gut is money right?

 What metric...

Taylor wasn’t good in short yardage either steel.  People think he was but he wasn’t.  

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22 minutes ago, Nickster said:

We agree on that about TAylor.  He’s not good at YAc or making people miss.  This is supported by metrics.  He’s a speed guy.  He’s like someone said earlier a bigger better Donald brown.

 

he reminds me a lot of Sproles.  Watch some Sproles tape, both rushing and receiving.  Looks just like him only a few inches taller which is funny cause he’s short.  Not. A dominant red zone pile mover at the point of attack.

 

Taylor is exactly the same guy he was in Wiscy, but now he's asked to catch balls too. And doing a good job at it.

 

He can move piles, just not super stacked boxes, which happens most of our downs inside the 10, because we go tight formation, and are overly predictable in our play calling. Spread things out, and be more diverse, and Taylor will have more success. 

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1 minute ago, Nickster said:

Pittman has 2 career tds man.  He’s a bigger guy but not real tall, and ain’t great at routes.  I honestly don’t understand your basis for calling him an alpha type of receiver.  Like for real.  And I think the dude is a pretty good player.  

 

Sometimes people think guys should be thrown to more but then you go back and look at tape and see the guys don’t present great targets down close to the rz.


 

ty is a good example.  He’s been our best receiver but was NEVER  big TD maker.

 

 

 

 

His stats are almost identical to Metkalf this year.  DK does have a few more TD this year. You can see how physical Pittman is by just watching him play. He is a dog.  Wentz just missed with a bad pass or Pittman would have 3 or 4 TD already. 

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5 minutes ago, Wentzszn said:

His stats are almost identical to Metkalf this year.  DK does have a few more TD this year. You can see how physical Pittman is by just watching him play. He is a dog.  Wentz just missed with a bad pass or Pittman would have 3 or 4 TD already. 

Yeah.  We are talking Tds man.  Red zone stuff.  Dk has a guy on the other side just as good as he is in a different way too.

 

if you think Pitt is. In on metcalfs level I’d be surprised.   

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3 minutes ago, Wentzszn said:

Pretty sure he has the same trust in Wentz as he did Luck. At least it will eventually come to that with him getting more comfy. I am just not going to draw conclusions on 6 games. I need most of the season to make any conclusions on that. I was actually the same way with Jacoby. I needed to see a full season of work.  Turned out he failed. Reich had one off season with rivers. Rivers mobility hurt the red zone productivity. 
 

Wentz can also check out of passing plays info running plays. So it’s not all on Reich. 

Reich was likely told to be hands off with Luck (don't fix something not broken). So just not giving much credit for 2018.

 

In 2019, we went totally conservative bully ball with a top OL because the QB wasn't a good passer.

 

In 2020, we were overly conservative with Rivers. When we got down, and Rivers was unleashed, he did pretty darn well (see Buffalo game).

 

I hope he trusts Wentz. Pretty obvious he didn't early, but we have seen more intermediate and deep throws the last game. We saw that early with Rivers vs MN, and it worked very well, but then didn't see it again weeks after. 

 

And just so you know, Wentz is likely given a choice of plays, not fully allowed to change anything to anything.

 

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Just now, Nickster said:

Yeah.  We are talking Tds man.  Red zone stuff.  Dk has a guy on the other side just as good as he is in a different way too.

 

if you think Pitt is. In on metcalfs level I’d be surprised.   

Like I said Wentz has missed badly on two sure fire TD to Pittman in the red zone. Let’s see where he is at by the end of the season. That TD against the ravens proved his physical he is. Metkalf also had Wilson last season while Pittman had Rivers and missed 3 games. . Let’s see where Metkalf numbers are with Gino Smith. 

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2 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Reich was likely told to be hands off with Luck (don't fix something not broken). So just not giving much credit for 2018.

 

In 2019, we went totally conservative bully ball with a top OL because the QB wasn't a good passer.

 

In 2020, we were overly conservative with Rivers. When we got down, and Rivers was unleashed, he did pretty darn well (see Buffalo game).

 

I hope he trusts Wentz. Pretty obvious he didn't early, but we have seen more intermediate and deep throws the last game. We saw that early with Rivers vs MN, and it worked very well, but then didn't see it again weeks after. 

 

And just so you know, Wentz is likely given a choice of plays, not fully allowed to change anything to anything.

 

I don’t call reuch being conservative with luck. Early on yes but when that win steak happened no. I call it being balanced. I don’t want a team like KC who is so reliant on deep passing plays all the time.

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8 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

 

Taylor is exactly the same guy he was in Wiscy, but now he's asked to catch balls too. And doing a good job at it.

 

He can move piles, just not super stacked boxes, which happens most of our downs inside the 10, because we go tight formation, and are overly predictable in our play calling. Spread things out, and be more diverse, and Taylor will have more success. 

Last season TAylor saw was 15th is attempts with 8+ In the box.That’s not low but it’s not super high.  This year he’s 9th but he also leads the league in RZ touches so you are obviously going to have more stacked boxes near the goal.

 

you are just arguing to be arguing aren’t you?  You’ve looked at the metrics and know that TAylor was extreme bottom tier in yacs and making people miss last year.

 That’s not a recipe for red zone success, and it’s partly why you see Hines in there but Hines doesn’t take too many of those carries in actuality.

 

you also know most of his rushing yards come against the worse teams and he’s had few I’d any great rushing games against even better than average d.

 

and btw.  Wife and I are getting ready to watch the last 2 episodes of Billions season 1.  Donnie just spit up blood.  Guessing he dies.  Don’t say anything though.  We shall find out soon.


 

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6 minutes ago, Indyfan4life said:

I think we’re really gonna notice a difference in the offense with Campbell being out. Teams are gonna double Pittman or Hilton now (assuming Hilton doesn’t miss any games with his injury) and we’ve lost our over the top guy. 
 

Sigh. 

Can’t double both. I don’t think it will be hard to replace Campbells production as long as TY is back.  Doubling TY leaves Pittman open or the other way around. It’s going to come down to if Wentz trusts the one filling in for Campbell because he was really starting to trust Campbell. He seems to trust Dulin so we will see if Dulin gets some increased playing time.

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14 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Reich was likely told to be hands off with Luck (don't fix something not broken). So just not giving much credit for 2018.

 

In 2019, we went totally conservative bully ball with a top OL because the QB wasn't a good passer.

 

In 2020, we were overly conservative with Rivers. When we got down, and Rivers was unleashed, he did pretty darn well (see Buffalo game).

 

I hope he trusts Wentz. Pretty obvious he didn't early, but we have seen more intermediate and deep throws the last game. We saw that early with Rivers vs MN, and it worked very well, but then didn't see it again weeks after. 

 

And just so you know, Wentz is likely given a choice of plays, not fully allowed to change anything to anything.

 

Come on East.  Luck was a very different QBs in a radically different offense under Reich.

 

 

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3 hours ago, SteelCityColt said:

 

Let's not act like your talent evaluation has been without fault, the difference here is you show up when you're right and are strangely absent when you're wrong... 

Really? Since it seems you know so much about my evaluation of talent, give me one example where I have been wrong and not stated as such? I mean you could be right, let's see if you are....

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Indyfan4life said:

I think we’re really gonna notice a difference in the offense with Campbell being out. Teams are gonna double Pittman or Hilton now (assuming Hilton doesn’t miss any games with his injury) and we’ve lost our over the top guy. 
 

Sigh. 

Campbell was pretty insignificant.  I haven’t watched but I doubt he made defenses pee down their legs.  He didn’t do anything in the preseason.

 

I tried to tell people he didn’t look great in camp.  His whopping 10 receptions and the one TD might support what I thought I was seeing.  He wasn’t even taking a 1st team reps in camp very often.  and 51 of the yds were on the play on which he was injured which was a blown coverage.  The safety and cornerwent for #2 leaving Paris wide open.  Any other receiver would have been as open.  It was just a blown coverage.

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47 minutes ago, Nickster said:

Sure man no problem.

 

buff diggs

kc hill and kelce

tb Evans and gronk and Godwin and brown lol

gb adams

lar cupp and lesser extent woods

tn brown and jones

az. Hopkins 

minn theilen Jefferson


 

I don’t think we have a receiver as good as any of these teams in the RZ.  

 

 

I thought we were talking big X receivers. 

 

also, a lot of those players you mentioned have a lot more time in the league compared to pittman. 

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6 minutes ago, Nickster said:

Campbell was pretty insignificant.  I haven’t watched but I doubt he made defenses pee down their legs.  He didn’t do anything in the preseason.

 

I tried to tell people he didn’t look great in camp.  His whopping 10 receptions and the one TD might support what I thought I was seeing.  He wasn’t even taking a 1st team reps in camp very often.  and 51 of the yds were on the play on which he was injured which was a blown coverage.  The safety and cornerwent for #2 leaving Paris wide open.  Any other receiver would have been as open.  It was just a blown coverage.

We’ll see. 

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32 minutes ago, Wentzszn said:

I don’t call reuch being conservative with luck. Early on yes but when that win steak happened no. I call it being balanced. I don’t want a team like KC who is so reliant on deep passing plays all the time.

Reich really wasn't conservative at all with Luck.

Look at his pass attempts even early in the year.

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11 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Eason had his chance against the Rams and blew it, he pulled a Painter. This doesn't surprise me at all. Had he drove us down the field for the winning TD, than Ballard and Frank would know they had something, dude got picked off quickly. 

I don’t think that is what caused this. But it probably did open their eyes how they need a more experienced QB. 

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26 minutes ago, Nickster said:

Last season TAylor saw was 15th is attempts with 8+ In the box.That’s not low but it’s not super high.  This year he’s 9th but he also leads the league in RZ touches so you are obviously going to have more stacked boxes near the goal.

that's part of the point. and with tight formations you're all but guaranteeing a super stack in the RZ.

26 minutes ago, Nickster said:

 

you are just arguing to be arguing aren’t you?  You’ve looked at the metrics and know that TAylor was extreme bottom tier in yacs and making people miss last year.

 That’s not a recipe for red zone success, and it’s partly why you see Hines in there but Hines doesn’t take too many of those carries in actuality.

You're missing the forest for the trees. When a RB is used predictably in tight formations in the RZ a ton, his broken tackle % and YAC is going to suffer big time. I'm not saying he's a wiggle king, Henry type, or anything, but the stats that you are looking at are considerably impacted by the way he is used.

26 minutes ago, Nickster said:

 

you also know most of his rushing yards come against the worse teams and he’s had few I’d any great rushing games against even better than average d.

We played 2 top 10 rush Ds last year, and played the 11th ranked as well. Taylor had over 4 yards per carry in all 3 games.

That's darn good for a rook RB.... 

26 minutes ago, Nickster said:

 

and btw.  Wife and I are getting ready to watch the last 2 episodes of Billions season 1.  Donnie just spit up blood.  Guessing he dies.  Don’t say anything though.  We shall find out soon.

I finally watched all of this season. I'm not happy with the breaking news that came out.

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1 minute ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

JB would've never got picked. Yeah it was a combo of things I agree. 

Jacoby was also a vet with lots of starting experience. Them  not making Sam the backup shows it probably more them just wanting experience. 

Just now, EastStreet said:

I said Reich was hands off, not conservative.

I just reread what you said. You said conservative.

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2 hours ago, Wentzszn said:

Reich always talked about how his quarterbacks need to be able to change plays at the line and audible out of bad plays into good plays. My guess is Eason wasn’t reading defenses very well.  Reich’s offense isn’t a easy one to learn.

The way Frank calls certain games and scenarios, If he likes being employed.....I can see why he emphasizes having qbs who are proficient at audibling out of bad plays lol.....

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