Colts moving on from Brissett per Chris Simms

[EastStreet]

23 minutes ago, esmort said:

 

Unfortunately that would kill most new threads off pretty quickly. Even though most here on both sides are probably tired of discussing JB it's almost impossible to really discuss the draft, FA, off-season, etc ... without JB coming into it at some point, because most topics of conversation will eventually lead back to/depend on what happens at the QB position.  

Yup, like it or not, the QB situation impacts just about everything. 

 

[Imgrandojji]

23 hours ago, EastStreet said:

Two things. One, we weren't a grind it out team in 2018. 

 

Yes we were.  Even with Luck there was am emphasis on a possession style and Mack got into the offense more than years past.  This was initially done to try to save Luck's career by allowing him to take a step back in what the franchise was asking of him.

 

Playing possession ball, and having a QB capable of home run throws, are not mutually exclusive.  Heck, that's literally a description of Tom Brady's entire career.

 

The problem with Winston in this vein is that he doesn't know how to not play all-or-nothing football.  There's a time and a place when it's the right strategy, and lots of times where it isn't, but with Winston it's the only strategy he knows.  He doesn't have the versatility to attack the football multiple ways, which is one of the reasons he's so easy for the opposing secondary to pick off.

 

23 hours ago, EastStreet said:

 

Two, I've posted Winston's complete coaching and scheme history in another thread (college and pro). It's true, Arians is only the the latest, but it's not like he's had a bunch. He had the Koetter/Monken combo pre-Arians. Monken is the guy that was responsible for Mayfield's complete decline last year, and Koetter in one year doubled Matt Ryan's INTs, and took 15ish points off his passer rating.

 

I'm sure the coaching didn't help but the tendencies predates the recent coaching changes.  This isn't the first year Winston had issues with this.  He's so one dimensional defenses know what's coming before he throws it.

 

23 hours ago, EastStreet said:

 

Not saying Winston can kick the INT habit, nor do I went him as a Colts QB, but his first and only year with a good coach (JImbo was both HC and OC in 2013), Winston was 40 and 10. At minimum, that means he's capable of that type of performance in the right scheme with the right coach.

In a perfect situation with a perfect coach, you mean.  A playstyle carefully tailored around exactly what he does best and a roster probably build around him.  I want a guy who's less volatile.

[EastStreet]

1 hour ago, Imgrandojji said:

 

Yes we were.  Even with Luck there was am emphasis on a possession style and Mack got into the offense more than years past.  This was initially done to try to save Luck's career by allowing him to take a step back in what the franchise was asking of him.

 

Playing possession ball, and having a QB capable of home run throws, are not mutually exclusive.  Heck, that's literally a description of Tom Brady's entire career.

While I agree they are not mutually exclusive (I've even said you can be top 10 or even top 5 in both running and passing), we were not a grind it out team in 2018

 

Luck threw more in 2018 than he ever did in his career. We passed the ball 644 times compared to 408 rushes. In 2019 we only passed 447 times and ran the ball 471 times. Totally flipped the script and shortened the playbook. 2018 was not grind it out, 2019 was, and it was because of the deficiencies at QB.

Quote

The problem with Winston in this vein is that he doesn't know how to not play all-or-nothing football.  There's a time and a place when it's the right strategy, and lots of times where it isn't, but with Winston it's the only strategy he knows.  He doesn't have the versatility to attack the football multiple ways, which is one of the reasons he's so easy for the opposing secondary to pick off.

 

I'm sure the coaching didn't help but the tendencies predates the recent coaching changes.  This isn't the first year Winston had issues with this.  He's so one dimensional defenses know what's coming before he throws it.

 

In a perfect situation with a perfect coach, you mean.  A playstyle carefully tailored around exactly what he does best and a roster probably build around him.  I want a guy who's less volatile.

Like I said, I've listed his coaching and scheme history. When Jimbo was his OC, he was 40/10. It went downhill after that. I don't like him, and don't want him, but every coach he's had since Jimbo was his OC, was either very bad, risky, or both.

[Rally5]

On 3/4/2020 at 9:30 PM, EastStreet said:

I'd bet the team has a very good idea of what they want to do. While I'm sure their big board is rough and still getting polished all the way up till draft day, I'm sure the strategy is pretty well defined. 

The draft strategy can completely change based on the Free Agency period, so they may have a soft plan of course, but I can assure you if it includes free agents, that impacts the draft strategy. Then we don't know how the draft is going to fall so it's still a crap shoot.

[EastStreet]

4 minutes ago, Rally5 said:

The draft strategy can completely change based on the Free Agency period, so they may have a soft plan of course, but I can assure you if it includes free agents, that impacts the draft strategy. Then we don't know how the draft is going to fall so it's still a crap shoot.

I'm assuming FA is part of their overall strategy. My point is they have a pretty clear list of needs/changes they want to address. How that happens (FA and/or Draft) anyone knows, but they know what they want to do, and have mapped out most of the "if-then" trees. 

[Rally5]

Just now, EastStreet said:

I'm assuming FA is part of their overall strategy. My point is they have a pretty clear list of needs/changes they want to address. How that happens (FA and/or Draft) anyone knows, but they know what they want to do, and have mapped out most of the "if-then" trees. 

Agree.

[CanuckColt]

Dumping Brissett keeps the fan base going.

Keeping him brings a lot of apathy to the fan base......except for the minority who want to keep him at any cost.

[crazycolt1]

45 minutes ago, CanuckColt said:

Dumping Brissett keeps the fan base going.

Keeping him brings a lot of apathy to the fan base......except for the minority who want to keep him at any cost.

It's not a point at some of us wanting to keep Brissett at any cost.

It's a matter of giving him another chance under better circumstances. 

You know like a set of talented receivers that were actually drafted and also Brissett not being injured. 

The fan base will keep going and still be here regardless of who the QB is. 

The 20 plus years of Manning and Luck has them expecting things out of the QB position that don't happen very often for most teams. To expect it now is unrealistic. 

[GRUMPY OLD MAN]

7 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

It's not a point at some of us wanting to keep Brissett at any cost.

It's a matter of giving him another chance under better circumstances. 

You know like a set of talented receivers that were actually drafted and also Brissett not being injured. 

The fan base will keep going and still be here regardless of who the QB is. 

The 20 plus years of Manning and Luck has them expecting things out of the QB position that don't happen very often for most teams. To expect it now is unrealistic. 

i  agree ballard will go with him

 

[aaron11]

21 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

It's a matter of giving him another chance under better circumstances. 

he lost me when he could not hit a wide open pascal or really anyone in the saints game.  good receivers will just go to waste if he cant make a throw like that

 

hes also late and over throws it with no touch again and again 

[aaron11]

do we need more talented receivers to help the qb or a more talented qb to help the receivers hmm

[crazycolt1]

1 minute ago, aaron11 said:

he lost me when he could not hit a wipe open pascal or really anyone in the saints game.  good receivers will just go to waste if he cant make a throw like that

 

His numbers didn't fall off till him losing receivers and getting injured. 

We were basically a running team so he wasn't going to have big numbers regardless. 

[crazycolt1]

Just now, aaron11 said:

do we need more talented receivers to help the qb or a more talented qb to help the receivers hmm

We need both no doubt.

We also must face the facts that here is no Mannings or Lucks available. 

[aaron11]

2 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

We also must face the facts that here is no Mannings or Lucks available. 

 

Herbert seems like a Reich QB to me.  i dont know what to make of love

 

my family is from Alabama so im a bit of a homer, but Tua could be a star if he stays healthy.   

[crazycolt1]

1 minute ago, aaron11 said:

 

Herbert seems like a Reich QB to me.  i dont know what to make of love

 

my family is from Alabama so im a bit of a homer, but Tua could be a star if he stays healthy.   

I agree that Herbert and Tua are both top talented QBs. Both will have great careers in the NFL as long as they end up on a talented team.

With that said IMO there is quite a bit drop off after them. 

[Yoshinator]

7 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

We need both no doubt.

We also must face the facts that here is no Mannings or Lucks available. 

The choices don't have to be Brissett (below average) or Manning or Luck (elite). Lets just go with young and full of potential (Love and Herbert) or average (Dalton and Carr). An upgrade from Brissett doesn't have to be an elite QB, even average will suffice.

[crazycolt1]

1 minute ago, Jared Cisneros said:

The choices don't have to be Brissett (below average) or Manning or Luck (elite). Lets just go with young and full of potential (Love and Herbert) or average (Dalton and Carr). An upgrade from Brissett doesn't have to be an elite QB, even average will suffice.

Just how do you or anyone else know that Brissett can be average or better without given a chance?

[Yoshinator]

1 minute ago, crazycolt1 said:

Just how do you or anyone else know that Brissett can be average or better without given a chance?

Are we back to this? Let me ask you something. Why are you so keen on giving him another chance? This is a former 3rd round pick that had one job, to backup Andrew Luck. Ballard traded for him for that purpose. He didn't start him because he wanted too, it was from unfortunate circumstances. He has been below average.

 

Do you want Ballard to put his job on the line with Brissett as his QB. With the Mahomes, Jacksons and Watsons of the world in the AFC. This team expects more from the QB position with their history and you should too as a fan.

 

Lets say we give him a chance and he's average. It just means we're an 8-8 team and we have to overpay him next year. No thanks.

[crazycolt1]

Just now, Jared Cisneros said:

 

Do you want Ballard to put his job on the line with Brissett as his QB. With the Mahomes, Jacksons and Watsons of the world in the AFC. This team expects more from the QB position with their history and you should too as a fan.

 

Lets say we give him a chance and he's average. It just means we're an 8-8 team and we have to overpay him next year. No thanks.

There are no Mahomes, Jacksons or Watsons available for the Colts.

Who is on other teams makes no difference. 

It is fans liken you that want more from a QB than what is realistic at this point.

You, me nor anyone else knows what Brissett can do when he is healthy and when he has talented receivers to throw to. 

I refuse to let this turn into an argumentative issue so just let it go. There is nothing more to say that hasn't been said too many times already. 

[Mr.NotSoCreative]

27 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

Just how do you or anyone else know that Brissett can be average or better without given a chance?

I think we all agree that he was thrown to the wolves in an unprecedented situation. But we also would agree that going into last season our QB room was the best in the NFL. Heck many thought we should have traded JB for a 1st because he was so capable. And then he recieved his opportunity, #2, to prove himself as a full time starter. The proof was in the puddin. 

[crazycolt1]

1 minute ago, Mr.NotSoCreative said:

I think we all agree that he was thrown to the wolves in an unprecedented situation. But we also would agree that going into last season our QB room was the best in the NFL. Heck many thought we should have traded JB for a 1st because he was so capable. And then he recieved his opportunity, #2, to prove himself as a full time starter. The proof was in the puddin. 

Before the 'puddin' lost his receivers and then was injured himself, he was doing just fine. 

Cause and effect. 

 

[Hoose]

1 hour ago, crazycolt1 said:

There are no Mahomes, Jacksons or Watsons available for the Colts.

Who is on other teams makes no difference. 

It is fans liken you that want more from a QB than what is realistic at this point.

You, me nor anyone else knows what Brissett can do when he is healthy and when he has talented receivers to throw to. 

I refuse to let this turn into an argumentative issue so just let it go. There is nothing more to say that hasn't been said too many times already. 

I appreciate your tenacity cc1. But you are aptly named. JB is simply a below average QB and that ain’t going to get it done here. I have little doubt Ballard will upgrade the position this year though how he ends up doing that is still a mystery.... free agent; trade; draft; a combo of two of the above. But change things he will. Because he has to if they want to win. 

[Mr.NotSoCreative]

34 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

Before the 'puddin' lost his receivers and then was injured himself, he was doing just fine. 

Cause and effect. 

 

Yes the injuries. Even in our 5-2 start, the guy's play was suspect. The team overall was healthier no doubt. Look, Im not totally disagreeing with you. JB will probably get another shot at it. It will be more because of contract and continuity reasons rather than belief he really is our future, our path to greater success though. 

[crazycolt1]

20 minutes ago, Mr.NotSoCreative said:

Yes the injuries. Even in our 5-2 start, the guy's play was suspect. The team overall was healthier no doubt. Look, Im not totally disagreeing with you. JB will probably get another shot at it. It will be more because of contract and continuity reasons rather than belief he really is our future, our path to greater success though. 

IMO JB deserves another shot, that's it.

All I am thinking is under all the negative things that happened after week 7 do I think we should give up on him? 

His QBR and percentages were pretty good with an offense that featured the run first mentality.

Just my opinion, that's all, nothing else. 

Now should Ballard look at other options? Yes of course. As a GM, that is his job. 

[ojsglove]

Thank god that's it,   hopefully.  We went to the run game because of his inability to throw the ball, after 7 games, opposing teams figured that out.  He was unable to find open receivers, and when he did, he under threw, or over threw them.  He was thrown into this situation by no fault of his own, but he has been paid very well for his services.

[EastStreet]

3 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

 

His numbers didn't fall off till him losing receivers and getting injured. 

We were basically a running team so he wasn't going to have big numbers regardless. 

This is factually incorrect. 4 of the first 7 games he had QBRs of less than 50, and 3 we sub 40. 

Also of note, 4 of our first 7 games were against bottom 10 pass Ds, which 3 of those were JBs best games in terms of yards.

 

Sure, WR injury I'm sure impacted him a bit later in the season, but let's not pretend he was playing well the first half. 

[EastStreet]

2 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

There are no Mahomes, Jacksons or Watsons available for the Colts.

Who is on other teams makes no difference. 

It is fans liken you that want more from a QB than what is realistic at this point.

You, me nor anyone else knows what Brissett can do when he is healthy and when he has talented receivers to throw to. 

I refuse to let this turn into an argumentative issue so just let it go. There is nothing more to say that hasn't been said too many times already. 

Mahomes and Jackson weren't considered Mahomes or Jacksons when they were drafted. Many called them system QBs. Mahome's NFL.com draft profile reads similar to Love's in terms of decision making. Jackson was passed over time and time again in the draft. 

 

We saw what Brissett could do last year. If you want to use his "healthy" first half, so be it, but he wasn't good then either per the numbers. His entire career going back to college has been mediocre, and he has the same exact deficiencies now, that he had then.

1 hour ago, crazycolt1 said:

IMO JB deserves another shot, that's it.

All I am thinking is under all the negative things that happened after week 7 do I think we should give up on him? 

His QBR and percentages were pretty good with an offense that featured the run first mentality.

Just my opinion, that's all, nothing else. 

Now should Ballard look at other options? Yes of course. As a GM, that is his job. 

his QBR was not good the first half of the season.

[crazycolt1]

12 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

This is factually incorrect. 4 of the first 7 games he had QBRs of less than 50, and 3 we sub 40. 

Also of note, 4 of our first 7 games were against bottom 10 pass Ds, which 3 of those were JBs best games in terms of yards.

 

Sure, WR injury I'm sure impacted him a bit later in the season, but let's not pretend he was playing well the first half. 

 

7 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Mahomes and Jackson weren't considered Mahomes or Jacksons when they were drafted. Many called them system QBs. Mahome's NFL.com draft profile reads similar to Love's in terms of decision making. Jackson was passed over time and time again in the draft. 

 

We saw what Brissett could do last year. If you want to use his "healthy" first half, so be it, but he wasn't good then either per the numbers. His entire career going back to college has been mediocre, and he has the same exact deficiencies now, that he had then.

his QBR was not good the first half of the season.

I stated my opinion. If you have a different opinion that is your opinion. 

I refuse to be argumentative when I am only voicing my opinion. 

What other teams have done or didn't do makes no difference to me either. 

[ojsglove]

3 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

 

I stated my opinion. If you have a different opinion that is your opinion. 

I refuse to be argumentative when I am only voicing my opinion. 

What other teams have done or didn't do make no difference to me either. 

case closed

[EastStreet]

Just now, crazycolt1 said:

 

I stated my opinion. If you have a different opinion that is your opinion. 

I refuse to be argumentative when I am only voicing my opinion. 

What other teams have done or didn't do makes no difference to me either. 

You stated a few things as fact, which were incorrect. I'm perfectly fine with differing opinions. If you think he deserves a second chance, that is fine. But don't be incorrect factually (like you were about QBR), or suggest that Mahomes or Jackson were no-brainer draft homeruns.

[crazycolt1]

3 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

You stated a few things as fact, which were incorrect. I'm perfectly fine with differing opinions. If you think he deserves a second chance, that is fine. But don't be incorrect factually (like you were about QBR), or suggest that Mahomes or Jackson were no-brainer draft homeruns.

I stated no opinion about any team or player. 

You added that in to make it argumentative. No thanks. 

 

 

[EastStreet]

Just now, crazycolt1 said:

I stated no opinion about any team or player. 

You added that in to make it argumentative. No thanks. 

 

you said

Quote

His numbers didn't fall off till him losing receivers and getting injured. 

Quote

His QBR and percentages were pretty good with an offense that featured the run first mentality.

Quote

Before the 'puddin' lost his receivers and then was injured himself, he was doing just fine. 

All of which are not correct per the stats.

 

And then said

Quote

There are no Mahomes, Jacksons or Watsons available for the Colts.

Mahones was seen as a late first round to mid second round QB going into the draft, was called a system QB, and many questioned his decision making. Many saw the move by KC as a reach. Jackson didn't go till very late and was seen as a gimmick or athlete who couldn't pass. 

 

Point is, we don't know if Herbert, Love, Gordon, or Hurts will prove folks wrong like Mahomes and Jackson did, so you can't say there is no one available in the draft without channeling hindsight. 

 

[crazycolt1]

18 minutes ago, ojsglove said:

case closed

I am sure it wont be. There are a few that feels the need to argue when all has already been hashed over and over. If my opinion is wrong? so what? I do have the ability to accept that. 

[crazycolt1]

1 minute ago, EastStreet said:

 

you said

All of which are not correct per the stats.

 

And then said

Mahones was seen as a late first round to mid second round QB going into the draft, was called a system QB, and many questioned his decision making. Many saw the move by KC as a reach. Jackson didn't go till very late and was seen as a gimmick or athlete who couldn't pass. 

 

Point is, we don't know if Herbert, Love, Gordon, or Hurts will prove folks wrong like Mahomes and Jackson did, so you can't say there is no one available in the draft without channeling hindsight. 

 

You just don't have the ability to accept anyone else's opinion if it don't match yours do you? 

 

[EastStreet]

18 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

You just don't have the ability to accept anyone else's opinion if it don't match yours do you? 

I'm not calling out your opinion. I'm calling out your misrepresentation of fact. 

[crazycolt1]

48 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

I'm not calling out your opinion. I'm calling out your misrepresentation of fact. 

I think you take all this a little too serious myself. 

[Four2itus]

5 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

It's not a point at some of us wanting to keep Brissett at any cost.

It's a matter of giving him another chance under better circumstances. 

You know like a set of talented receivers that were actually drafted and also Brissett not being injured. 

The fan base will keep going and still be here regardless of who the QB is. 

The 20 plus years of Manning and Luck has them expecting things out of the QB position that don't happen very often for most teams. To expect it now is unrealistic. 

I could like this a 1000 times. Keep right on sharing what you think. 

 

 

1 hour ago, crazycolt1 said:

You just don't have the ability to accept anyone else's opinion if it don't match yours do you? 

 

No, they don't. 

[EastStreet]

43 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

I think you take all this a little too serious myself. 

Not really. It's just a pet peeve seeing folks make stats or other claims that are simply erroneous. 

14 minutes ago, Four2itus said:

No, they don't. 

I have zero problem with opinion, or those that want to keep JB. I do have a problem with anyone, on any topic, when they say water isn't wet. If you're going to make claims about stats, just don't misrepresent. 

[crazycolt1]

2 hours ago, EastStreet said:

Not really. It's just a pet peeve seeing folks make stats or other claims that are simply erroneous. 

I have zero problem with opinion, or those that want to keep JB. I do have a problem with anyone, on any topic, when they say water isn't wet. If you're going to make claims about stats, just don't misrepresent. 

A pet peeve? Really? You don't say. 

[ÅÐØNϧ 1]

On 3/3/2020 at 11:03 PM, Superfly said:

I disagree and Superman said the same thing awhile back. So, I’m not the only one who thinks he is. Good day! 

With all due respect that just means your both wrong . Nobody has coddled JB he was thrown to the wolves in a sink or swim scenario he did pretty good the first year considering the situation but failed miserably last season . If he were to remain as the starter that IMO would be insane .

 

We need to draft a QB . Not recycle rejects from other teams .