Future at WR

[Four2itus]

I think it might be time to look at a high pick at the WR position. Marvin was huge for Colt offenses. So was Reggie. So is TY. Here is a breakdown of when WR have been taken since Marvin was selected in 1996. I wanted to note that TE selections affect this discussion, but chose to leave that out and talk purely about the WR position. Also, FA come into play, but have again chosen to stay focused on drafted WR's, and what the future looks like.

 

1996 - 19th - Marvin Harrision

1997 - 150th - Nate Jacquet

1998 - 32nd Jerome Pathon   &  71st - E.G. Green

1999 - None

2000 - None

2001 - 30th Reggie Wayne

2002 - None

2003 - None

2004 - None

2005 - None

2006 - None

2007 - 32nd Anthony Gonzalez   &   169th Roy Hall

2008 - 205th Pierre Garcon

2009 - 127th Austin Collie

2010 - None

2011 - None

2012 - 92nd TY Hilton   &   206th Lavon Brazil

2013 - None

2014 - 90th Dante Moncrief

2015 - 29th Phillip Dorsett

2016 - None

2017 - None

2018 - 159th Daurice Fountain

2019 - 59th Parris Campbell

 

My first observation is, since the Manning era beginning in 1996, the Colts have never valued a WR above the 30th pick to be worth the selection. Since coming to Indy, they have drafted..

M. Harrison @ 19

Sean Dawkins @ 16

Andre Rison @ 22

One is in the HOF, one should/could be, and one failed. Looks like the odds are pretty good drafting a WR above the 25th pick.

 

Picking around 30th has netted the Colts..

Jerome Pathon @ 32

Reggie Wayne @ 30

Anthony Gonzo @ 32

Phillip Dorsett @ 29

One out of four at this slot area has not been as fruitful. 

 

Yet, the Colts have unearthed several WR's later on that were at least productive for their selection level...

Donte Moncrief @ 90

Austin Collie @ 127

Pierre Garcon @ 205

 

Too soon to decide on...

Daurice Fountain @ 159

Parris Campbell @ 59

 

So what if we draft around 20-22. Is it time to take a WR with our first pick?

 

 

 

[coltfaninnewyork]

I think Campbell will be good ,pascal a good 3 maybe .Ty and one stud from draft we should be ok 

[EastStreet]

And with only two highly successful WRs through 20 years, we had highly successful passing Os for most of those years. 

 

I'd say it's obvious what's important in this equation if you're trying to improve the passing game.

[Four2itus]

4 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

I'd say it's obvious what's important in this equation if you're trying to improve the passing game.

........that we draft another Reggie Wayne and Marvin Harrison?

[EastStreet]

7 minutes ago, Four2itus said:

........that we draft another Reggie Wayne and Marvin Harrison?

try again :-)

[LockeDown]

13 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

And with only two highly successful WRs through 20 years, we had highly successful passing Os for most of those years. 

 

I'd say it's obvious what's important in this equation if you're trying to improve the passing game.

More Oline?

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

We need to keep Campbell and TY. I am ok with keeping pascal. We could use two WR. One in FA and in the draft. The entire group needs a overall.

[Four2itus]

2 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

try again :-)

Not playing a guessing game with you. It is quite plain to see just how important those two WR have been in the success of the great Colt offenses of their time. This current Colt offense is woefully lacking at playmaking ability from the WR position. There are plenty of threads discussing the validity of the QB position. Would you like a link?

[EastStreet]

6 minutes ago, LockeDown said:

More Oline?

strike two

[coltsfan_canada]

7 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

strike two

Need better TE for Pass Block??

[WoolMagnet]

I look at the team and i see several needs.

 

WR, pass rush, DT, CB i see as biggest “needs” of upgrade.

 

I see OL, WR, as “needs” at depth.

 

Then there is the question of drafting a QB.  Is JB the answer?  Os Kelly a possibility at backup or more?  Do we draft a QB earlier (questioning JBs ceiling) or later (backup or later to replace JB)?

 

We will have options with our 1st and (2) 2nds.  If the right fit at WR or QB is available at one of those, why not?  We dont need the number of draft picks to stick to the roster as the past.

 

  If we end up picking at #15, anyone have a guess how far up a #15 and say #34 (#2 from redskins).  To #10.

  I know Ballard doesnt normally move up, but i would for “the guy”, similar to what Pitt did last year.

 

Edit:  i forgot TE.  Ebron will want $.  We will probably need to replace him thru draft or FA.  Losing Ebron could also put more need on upgrading WR corps too.

[EastStreet]

2 minutes ago, Four2itus said:

Not playing a guessing game with you. It is quite plain to see just how important those two WR have been in the success of the great Colt offenses of their time. This current Colt offense is woefully lacking at playmaking ability from the WR position. There are plenty of threads discussing the validity of the QB position. Would you like a link?

The future of WR is highly dependent on the future of the QB. 

 

You're post shows that for twenty years, we had two legit QBs who had two legit WRs and a bunch of other tier 2 WRs, yet were highly successful.

 

We currently have a legit WR and a bunch of tier 2 WRs. That legit WR, prior to injury, had regressed production in almost all meaningful stats with the current QB.

 

All that said.... I think with our current QB situation, there's a very good chance that the addition of a high draft pick WR would not translate into results that some assume.

 

If you're whole premise of this thread is "The future of WR with JB", that's a different conversation with a more focused set of topics.

[Four2itus]

14 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

If you're whole premise of this thread is "The future of WR with JB", that's a different conversation with a more focused set of topics.

No. My premise of this thread was about whether or not to take a WR high in the next draft. You are the one determined to talk about the QB.  There are a lot of threads discussing the QB. 

 

I would hope that Ballard would not make a decision about taking a WR based on our QB. I believe he has said, "It's never about one guy".

[SouthernIndianaNDFan]

The class is so deep at WR that we could easily get a guy with the Redskins pick that in most years would have been a 1st round guy. This is probably true of our other 2nd rounder, the later one. 

 

As far as who, if you want a field stretcher I think you have to shoot for Jalen Reagor or Henry Ruggs. If it's an X receiver, then guys like Tee Higgins, Tyler Johnson, Antonio Gandy Golden. I personally think an X receiver is the way to go (after we take a QB of course). We need a guy that can compliment TY for a while, then eventually take the reigns. We already have a speedy playmaker in Parris Campbell. Most people are touting him a bust already, but he's dealt with injuries, and right before the latest one he was sort of breaking out. The kid is still only 22 and has all the tools to be a great NFL receiver, he just needs someone that can consistently get him the ball without him being open by 5-10 yards lol. 

[EastStreet]

57 minutes ago, coltsfan_canada said:

Need better TE for Pass Block??

here's the mock I just did....

 

1: R1P22 DL DERRICK BROWN AUBURN

2: R2P2 OT JEDRICK WILLS ALABAMA

3: R2P22 QB JORDAN LOVE UTAH STATE

4: R3P22 WR BRANDON AIYUK ARIZONA STATE

5: R4P22 EDGE JABARI ZUNIGA FLORIDA

6: R5P21 G TREY SMITH TENNESSEE

7: R6P22 WR MARQUEZ CALLAWAY TENNESSEE

8: R6P25 RB A.J. DILLON BOSTON COLLEGE

9: R7P22 LB LEO LEWIS MISSISSIPPI STATE

[EastStreet]

21 minutes ago, Four2itus said:

No. My premise of this thread was about whether or not to take a WR high in the next draft. You are the one determined to talk about the QB.  There are a lot of threads discussing the QB. 

 

I would hope that Ballard would not make a decision about taking a WR based on our QB. I believe he has said, "It's never about one guy".

If Ballard chose to take a QB early, it would absolutely change the draft strategy altogether and would certainly impact WR.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

22 minutes ago, Four2itus said:

No. My premise of this thread was about whether or not to take a WR high in the next draft. You are the one determined to talk about the QB.  There are a lot of threads discussing the QB. 

 

I would hope that Ballard would not make a decision about taking a WR based on our QB. I believe he has said, "It's never about one guy".

This. Even if Luck was the QB still we need to upgrade this position. Doesn’t matter who the QB is or will be.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

1 minute ago, EastStreet said:

If Ballard chose to take a QB early, it would absolutely change the draft strategy altogether and would certainly impact WR.

Go talk about a QB in the other million QB threads. This isn’t about a QB in this thread.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

30 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

The future of WR is highly dependent on the future of the QB. 

 

You're post shows that for twenty years, we had two legit QBs who had two legit WRs and a bunch of other tier 2 WRs, yet were highly successful.

 

We currently have a legit WR and a bunch of tier 2 WRs. That legit WR, prior to injury, had regressed production in almost all meaningful stats with the current QB.

 

All that said.... I think with our current QB situation, there's a very good chance that the addition of a high draft pick WR would not translate into results that some assume.

 

If you're whole premise of this thread is "The future of WR with JB", that's a different conversation with a more focused set of topics.

No one is saying that. If it doesn’t then you go get a QB in 2021. You don’t just ignore the WR position because of who you have. Stop turning these threads into QB talk. 

[DougDew]

Don't disagree with the talent assessment.  But we have unknown quantity in Campbell and its possible DF resigns.

 

I think both Ebron and Doyle's contracts expire, and we need to do something with the TE position.  How about channeling the capital to really upgrade that position and let the WR (and QB) position season for another year?

 

Not that we couldn't use another talented WR if value was there, but I'd put the first priority for the offense on TE given our overall roster fluctuations, IMO.

[Btown_Colt]

3 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

Go talk about a QB in the other million QB threads. This isn’t about a QB in this thread.

Coming from the poster who almost daily says the same thing or posts the same tweet in multiple threads....cool.

5 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

This. Even if Luck was the QB still we need to upgrade this position. Doesn’t matter who the QB is or will be.

It absolutely mattes who the QB is.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

Just now, Btown_Colt said:

Coming from the poster who almost daily says the same thing or posts the same tweet in multiple threads....cool.

It absolutely mattes who the QB is.

If Luck was thE QB I would be saying the same thing. We need WR help. Needing WR help is totally separate from who the QB Is.

[DougDew]

1 hour ago, Four2itus said:

I think it might be time to look at a high pick at the WR position. Marvin was huge for Colt offenses. So was Reggie. So is TY. Here is a breakdown of when WR have been taken since Marvin was selected in 1996. I wanted to note that TE selections affect this discussion, but chose to leave that out and talk purely about the WR position. Also, FA come into play, but have again chosen to stay focused on drafted WR's, and what the future looks like.

 

1996 - 19th - Marvin Harrision

1997 - 150th - Nate Jacquet

1998 - 32nd Jerome Pathon   &  71st - E.G. Green

1999 - None

2000 - None

2001 - 30th Reggie Wayne

2002 - None

2003 - None

2004 - None

2005 - None

2006 - None

2007 - 32nd Anthony Gonzalez   &   169th Roy Hall

2008 - 205th Pierre Garcon

2009 - 127th Austin Collie

2010 - None

2011 - None

2012 - 92nd TY Hilton   &   206th Lavon Brazil

2013 - None

2014 - 90th Dante Moncrief

2015 - 29th Phillip Dorsett

2016 - None

2017 - None

2018 - 159th Daurice Fountain

2019 - 59th Parris Campbell

 

My first observation is, since the Manning era beginning in 1996, the Colts have never valued a WR above the 30th pick to be worth the selection. Since coming to Indy, they have drafted..

M. Harrison @ 19

Sean Dawkins @ 16

Andre Rison @ 22

 

That list is pathetic. 

 

Harrison and Wayne soaked up a lot of years not needing to draft one, but post 2012 has really no excuse.  In Manning's early years, Polian at least tried to give him help with Pathon and Green, then when they didn't work out, tried again with Wayne and it stuck.

 

We tried once since 2012 to give Luck help and then gave up.  Pathetic.

[EastStreet]

13 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

Go talk about a QB in the other million QB threads. This isn’t about a QB in this thread.

Is this your JB safe space?

[Btown_Colt]

Just now, Chloe6124 said:

If Luck was thE QB I would be saying the same thing. We need WR help. Needing WR help is totally separate from who the QB Is.

You might be saying that, you might not be. But I believe if Luck is QB, Cain is probably still around as Luck could utilize his strengths. I’m sure TY is having a batter year, although maybe still dinged up. Ebron & Doyle are probably as good as last year. 

 

It’s not hard to see that the QB play has had a negative affect on the WR and TE group.

[EastStreet]

12 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

No one is saying that. If it doesn’t then you go get a QB in 2021. You don’t just ignore the WR position because of who you have. Stop turning these threads into QB talk. 

Did I say ignore? If you look at the mock I just posted, I took two WRs, after I took a QB.

 

[Four2itus]

40 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Is this your JB safe space?

No. I asked in my original post, "So what if we draft around 20-22. Is it time to take a WR with our first pick?"

 

It seems my question was not broad enough for your tastes. I put almost an hour into that post to specifically talk about the WR position and whether or not it should be selected high. Frankly, the posts have all been about broad needs of the team and it appears that all threads of this type will be turned into such. Motor on......

[EastStreet]

2 minutes ago, Four2itus said:

No. I asked in my original post, "So what if we draft around 20-22. Is it time to take a WR with our first pick?"

 

It seems my question was not broad enough for your tastes. I put almost an hour into that post to specifically talk about the WR position and whether or not it should be selected high. Frankly, the posts have all been about broad needs of the team and it appears that all threads of this type will be turned into such. Motor on......

To answer the OP question, no, I don't think we go WR in the 1st round, with, or without JB.

I Would draft a WR later, but the strategy would be different depending on in we draft a QB or stay with JB.

[NewColtsFan]

2 hours ago, Four2itus said:

I think it might be time to look at a high pick at the WR position. Marvin was huge for Colt offenses. So was Reggie. So is TY. Here is a breakdown of when WR have been taken since Marvin was selected in 1996. I wanted to note that TE selections affect this discussion, but chose to leave that out and talk purely about the WR position. Also, FA come into play, but have again chosen to stay focused on drafted WR's, and what the future looks like.

 

1996 - 19th - Marvin Harrision

1997 - 150th - Nate Jacquet

1998 - 32nd Jerome Pathon   &  71st - E.G. Green

1999 - None

2000 - None

2001 - 30th Reggie Wayne

2002 - None

2003 - None

2004 - None

2005 - None

2006 - None

2007 - 32nd Anthony Gonzalez   &   169th Roy Hall

2008 - 205th Pierre Garcon

2009 - 127th Austin Collie

2010 - None

2011 - None

2012 - 92nd TY Hilton   &   206th Lavon Brazil

2013 - None

2014 - 90th Dante Moncrief

2015 - 29th Phillip Dorsett

2016 - None

2017 - None

2018 - 159th Daurice Fountain

2019 - 59th Parris Campbell

 

My first observation is, since the Manning era beginning in 1996, the Colts have never valued a WR above the 30th pick to be worth the selection. Since coming to Indy, they have drafted..

M. Harrison @ 19

Sean Dawkins @ 16

Andre Rison @ 22

One is in the HOF, one should/could be, and one failed. Looks like the odds are pretty good drafting a WR above the 25th pick.

 

Picking around 30th has netted the Colts..

Jerome Pathon @ 32

Reggie Wayne @ 30

Anthony Gonzo @ 32

Phillip Dorsett @ 29

One out of four at this slot area has not been as fruitful. 

 

Yet, the Colts have unearthed several WR's later on that were at least productive for their selection level...

Donte Moncrief @ 90

Austin Collie @ 127

Pierre Garcon @ 205

 

Too soon to decide on...

Daurice Fountain @ 159

Parris Campbell @ 59

 

So what if we draft around 20-22. Is it time to take a WR with our first pick?

 

 

 

I hope not.   The team has to re-buikd the DL.   I’d like to see our first two picks go DT and DE.    
 

Then our puck in the 2nd round which looks to be roughly in the middle 59’s is where I think we go WR.   This is another very good class of WR’s and there should be a very good receiver when we pick.   History shows you can find good WR’s on Day 2.    Day 1 WR’s often flame out.   You have to look at more than just the Colts history.   You have to look at the overall history in each of the first three rounds.   History shows teams do just fine in R’s 2-3.   

[Stephen]

1 hour ago, NewColtsFan said:

I hope not.   The team has to re-buikd the DL.   I’d like to see our first two picks go DT and DE.    
 

Then our puck in the 2nd round which looks to be roughly in the middle 59’s is where I think we go WR.   This is another very good class of WR’s and there should be a very good receiver when we pick.   History shows you can find good WR’s on Day 2.    Day 1 WR’s often flame out.   You have to look at more than just the Colts history.   You have to look at the overall history in each of the first three rounds.   History shows teams do just fine in R’s 2-3.   

Nah give me the next Jerry rice, randy moss, calvin johnson, or julio jones in the first round

[NewColtsFan]

47 minutes ago, Stephen said:

Nah give me the next Jerry rice, randy moss, calvin johnson, or julio jones in the first round

well...  there’s a group of fans like you who want a first round WR.   But I should caution you, the names you tossed out don’t come out every year.  Not even in a good class.   The greats come out every 5-10 years, maybe longer.

 

There's another group of fans who want a new QB. 
 

And there’s another group who want another OL, especially an OT.

 

And finally, there’s another group who want a DT.

 

In my 8 years as a Colts fan,  there's never been so many different viewpoints for the first round.  

[Stephen]

1 hour ago, NewColtsFan said:

well...  there’s a group of fans like you who want a first round WR.   But I should caution you, the names you tossed out don’t come out every year.  Not even in a good class.   The greats come out every 5-10 years, maybe longer.

 

There's another group of fans who want a new QB. 
 

And there’s another group who want another OL, especially an OT.

 

And finally, there’s another group who want a DT.

 

In my 8 years as a Colts fan,  there's never been so many different viewpoints for the first round.  

I mean even a hopkins like wr  would help. I do feel Dt and oline should be addressed  as well. As for qb I don't  mind us taking one, but not sure if they will be better  than what we have unless you consider  a gunslinger  better.

[ColtsAC]

13 hours ago, Chloe6124 said:

We need to keep Campbell and TY. I am ok with keeping pascal. We could use two WR. One in FA and in the draft. The entire group needs a overall.

I have hopes for Fountain.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

1 hour ago, ColtsAC said:

I have hopes for Fountain.

Right now I am not hoping a 5th rd guy is good. It got us in trouble with Cain. We need high pick and someone that is proven.

[CoachLite]

13 hours ago, Four2itus said:

No. I asked in my original post, "So what if we draft around 20-22. Is it time to take a WR with our first pick?"

 

It seems my question was not broad enough for your tastes. I put almost an hour into that post to specifically talk about the WR position and whether or not it should be selected high. Frankly, the posts have all been about broad needs of the team and it appears that all threads of this type will be turned into such. Motor on......

If all you're going to do is run the  damn ball, why invest more money on wide receivers? Now, if you want a more balanced approach predominantly using the run to set up the pass, that would be different. But, that's not what is happening at this point in time.

[MikeCurtis]

A sombering thought on WRs......

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/04/10/draft-wide-receiver-wr-first-round-busts-kyle-lauletta-jimmy-garoppolo-chad-kanoff-princeton

 

I would almost rather overpay for a FA WR.  Drafting the next star at WR, seems to be a higher risk

 

If we get better QB play, and keep blocking........  a good (not great) WR can be effective

 

I would want us to keep going on the lines

 

Or......  get a QB to develop

 

 

 

 

[GoColts00]

16 hours ago, WoolMagnet said:

I look at the team and i see several needs.

 

WR, pass rush, DT, CB i see as biggest “needs” of upgrade.

 

I see OL, WR, as “needs” at depth.

 

Then there is the question of drafting a QB.  Is JB the answer?  Os Kelly a possibility at backup or more?  Do we draft a QB earlier (questioning JBs ceiling) or later (backup or later to replace JB)?

 

We will have options with our 1st and (2) 2nds.  If the right fit at WR or QB is available at one of those, why not?  We dont need the number of draft picks to stick to the roster as the past.

 

  If we end up picking at #15, anyone have a guess how far up a #15 and say #34 (#2 from redskins).  To #10.

  I know Ballard doesnt normally move up, but i would for “the guy”, similar to what Pitt did last year.

 

Edit:  i forgot TE.  Ebron will want $.  We will probably need to replace him thru draft or FA.  Losing Ebron could also put more need on upgrading WR corps too.

https://www.drafttek.com/NFL-Trade-Value-Chart.asp

 

As of Nov. 13th we are @ 16 which equals 1000 pts.

If we trade with Denver..

 

Colts Rd1 #16, Rd2 #34, Rd5 #143

Those picks equal 1594.5 pts 

 

Denver Rd1 #7, Rd4 #103

Those picks equal 1588

 

[PeterBowman]

14 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

I hope not.   The team has to re-buikd the DL.   I’d like to see our first two picks go DT and DE.    
 

Then our puck in the 2nd round which looks to be roughly in the middle 59’s is where I think we go WR.   This is another very good class of WR’s and there should be a very good receiver when we pick.   History shows you can find good WR’s on Day 2.    Day 1 WR’s often flame out.   You have to look at more than just the Colts history.   You have to look at the overall history in each of the first three rounds.   History shows teams do just fine in R’s 2-3.   

Don't forget the Colts have Washington's 2nd this year which looks like it'll be the 2nd pick of the round.

[Hoose]

16 hours ago, SouthernIndianaNDFan said:

The class is so deep at WR that we could easily get a guy with the Redskins pick that in most years would have been a 1st round guy. This is probably true of our other 2nd rounder, the later one. 

 

As far as who, if you want a field stretcher I think you have to shoot for Jalen Reagor or Henry Ruggs. If it's an X receiver, then guys like Tee Higgins, Tyler Johnson, Antonio Gandy Golden. I personally think an X receiver is the way to go (after we take a QB of course). We need a guy that can compliment TY for a while, then eventually take the reigns. We already have a speedy playmaker in Parris Campbell. Most people are touting him a bust already, but he's dealt with injuries, and right before the latest one he was sort of breaking out. The kid is still only 22 and has all the tools to be a great NFL receiver, he just needs someone that can consistently get him the ball without him being open by 5-10 yards lol. 

Well said. Gonna have to bite the bullet and pay the draft price for a great WR. Jacoby’s future is a different issue.....apples and oranges.  The need to upgrade at WR is glaringly obvious regardless of who is behind Center. 

[SouthernIndianaNDFan]

2 minutes ago, Hoose said:

Well said. Gonna have to bite the bullet and pay the draft price for a great WR. Jacoby’s future is a different issue.....apples and oranges.  The need to upgrade at WR is glaringly obvious regardless of who is behind Center. 

 

We're 29th in Passing Yards, and only 2 other teams average less than 200 per game: the Bears, and Dolphins.

We're really bad, and it's in large part due to Jacoby Brissett, because Andrew Luck killed it last year with this set of weapons. Only real difference was Dontrelle Inman lol, TY missed the same amount of time, Luck didn't have Parris Campbell obv, and no Jack Doyle last year. Plus, Luck didn't have the full, healthy, oline til Week 8. No excuses, JB isn't the longterm answer.