What quarterback in the 2020 draft do you want to lead this team

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

Dude we got Funchess. He broke his shoulder. Did you forget about that.

[The Fish]

12 minutes ago, Imgrandojji said:

 

You've got 2 backs, Mack and Hines, that have actual roles, and Wilkins that I'm not actually sure why he exists and I'm not sure he is either.

 

Mack and Wilkins have skillsets that are too similar.  You need a RB2 that can give you a different look to keep defenses guessing.  A good stable of backs would have Mack or Wilkins trying to run patiently  and a downhill runner to bum rush the gap and catch the defense napping if they get complacent, and would run some 2 back sets to allow the offense to create a shell game and force the D to hedge.

 

The fact that we don't seem to be capable of using a 2 back set, means that the skillset of our "stable" of backs is fairly limited, or it means that Reich and the OC are both extremely bankrupt for creativity in how to use running backs in an offense.  

 

So I question your first premise right off the bat, and posit that this lack of diversity and/or creativity in the run game is a big reason the running game disappears against disciplined defenses.

 

 

 

Jack Doyle will be pleased to know he's been upgraded to "a few."  Ebron is inconsistent and Allie-Cox is a decent backup.  Doyle himself is solid but not a world-beater.

 

It's not a bad group, the whole group rounds up to an above average TE unit, but it's only as significant a part of the offense as it is for us this year more or less by default.

 

Man I really applaud your effort there.  You really put in a good honest try at making our WR situation not look like a complete disaster.

 

The original plan required everyone to stay healthy and play at about the 75th percentile of their ability.  If you can't see why that's a bit overoptimistic -- to put it mildly -- then I'm afraid there's nothing more I can do to help you.  

 

We got lucky when Pascal came through.  you put these kinds of odds and ends together in the hope that 1 or 2 of them out of the whole group will stick and become solid contributors.  Expecting a stable of spare parts to play like a well oiled machine is an incredible exercise in magical thinking just this side of believing in Narnia.

 

 

Agreed.  The offensive line should be a top offensive line and for the most part it is.

 

 

 

 

The talent is there to not suck.  If not sucking is all you want to accomplish, then sure, the talent is there.  Not sure the talent is there to be a top team in the AFC.  But hey, if you're in on the not-sucking game, then go nuts, enjoy your 7-9 wins every year.  If not, then Ballard needs to do a better job building out the core of this offense -- fewer spare parts, more core components, and if he can't do it we need a better engineer.

A few points. I like Wilkins. He needs more carries, frankly. Ebron is what he is, but the guy can make spectacular plays- he got totally screw'd on that int call last week on a less than spectacular play. I'm not going to go through my thumbs up or down on everyone, but saying the WR situation is a disaster based on Deon Cane being overvalued, while the 1 and 2 are hurt is beyond a stretch. It's not even close to a disaster aside from the injuries. Yeah, honestly, feel free to make the case where this offense needs major overhaul, but I'm telling ya, it's the QB play that makes the whole thing go and that's what's going to make up the difference more than another WR.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

1 minute ago, The Fish said:

A few points. I like Wilkins. He needs more carries, frankly. Ebron is what he is, but the guy can make spectacular plays- he got totally screw'd on that int call last week on a less than spectacular play. I'm not going to go through my thumbs up or down on everyone, but saying the WR situation is a disaster based on Deon Cane being overvalued, while the 1 and 2 are hurt is beyond a stretch. It's not even close to a disaster aside from the injuries. Yeah, honestly, feel free to make the case where this offense needs major overhaul, but I'm telling ya, it's the QB play that makes the whole thing go and that's what's going to make up the difference more than another WR.

I think your wrong thinking it’s all the QB play. Injuries happened and we have no idea what would of happened if everyone was healthy at the same time. We should find out soon.  Imagine the Texans losing Watson, Hopkins, stills or Coutee , and fuller all at the same time.

[EastStreet]

47 minutes ago, Imgrandojji said:

I disagree that the offense is built.  If Ballard actually thinks that this offense is built and that this is what a complete offense looks like I'd like to take the good look at the inside of his head sometime.

 

Our OL is the only part of the offense that I would honestly call top of the line.  Everything else has the air of an emergency field repair,, duct tape and baling wire and praying it will hold for 1 game at a time.  That's not a "built" offense.  The phrase I'd use for that kind of offense is "barely adequate."

 

Our running game?  Average.  Maybe a little above average.  No consistency from week to week and very limited ability to impose its will against high level defenses.   This was supposed to be our top offensive weapon.  Honestly it really hasn't been.  With a little luck on a good day our run game might be top 15.  I can't rate it better than that.  I certainly wouldn't consider Mack and company to be capable of leading an assault against a playoff team.

 

As for the throwing game, it's one of those things that insurance would write off an act of God.  The plan was good.  A bit optimistic, but good.  you just can't plan around that magnitude of attrition very easily.  

 

But at the same time, the optimism at the core of the thinking around assembling the receiving corps is alarming.   Everywhere after TY there are guys who you have to qualify their skillsets.  "on a good day, he can..." "if he can stay healthy, he will..."  "One year he..." having a few guys like that on the periphery of the offense is fine, building an offense out of them is not, an Ballard is guilty of the latter.

 

Quite frankly I've become concerned about Ballard that he might have a tendency to overthink things try too hard to be perfect.  To hit home runs on the cheap every time.  Gambling on broken pieces and average guys with upside is a decent way to supplement a strong core but you can't build a football team like that.  Not even Belichick would go to war with Edelman and a bunch of spare parts and expect to win anything.  Thats more or less what Ballard tried to do this year.

 

Perfect is the enemy of good, and if you ignore good decisions to chase perfect ones the usual result is mediocricy.  A little concerned here that Ballard may wind up learning that the hard way at our expense.

Actually good is the enemy of great.

 

OL

Top 5 even with a QB who has a bottom 10 time-to-throw

Top 5 even with Ds selling out to stop the run because they don't respect our passing

 

Rushing game

Ranked 10th in the league Y/G even though teams are focusing primarily on stopping it

Mack is 8th in the league

 

Receiving game

Hilton - 4x Pro Bowler, who has led the league in yards

Ebron - Also a Pro Bowler who led all TEs in TDs, and 2nd overall (including WRs)

Doyle - Another TE with a Pro Bowl under his belt

Hines - Was close to setting rookie records last year for a receiving RB

The rest - you have a few vets that Luck used efficiently last year. You have a high priced one year rental that got hurt. You have a promising rookie that has been plagued by injury.

 

In short, the OL and running game are top 10. We have arguably the best TE duo in the league, and 3rd in the NFL on TE spending. We have WR1 that has proven he's one of the best in the league. We have a receiving RB who was just a bit outside of the top 10 (RB receiving yards) last year. 

 

The passing game and all components have taken a big step back this year, with arguably better receiving parts than last year. The glaring deficiencies point to one position, not to holes all over the offense.

 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

22 minutes ago, GoatBeard said:

I think a guy like Jordan Love is exactly the type of QB we need. His stock has dropped a bit, but he certainly has the talent to develop behind Brissett and possibly provide some competition, without costing us a high pick. You can bring him along slowly and see what you have after next season. 

 

As far as the rest of the offense, I think people tend to think any performance issue is a talent issue, when that's hardly the case most of the time. I think we have a pretty good set of TEs. I would like to see them move on from Ebron and replace him with a young athletic pass catcher with a more reliable mental makeup. I would like to see them move Hines to the slot to replace Rogers. I would like to see them either give Jordan Wilkins more of an opportunity or find someone similar to share carries with Mack. But that's about it. A good offense to me is simply consistent. I don't care about being more explosive, not even a little bit. We have enough of that with Hilton and Ebron, when Ebron is on his game at least. If we can replace him with a more reliable target, I'm happy. 

 

Defensively, we need a top notch DL and maybe a corner. If we can do that, this defense will be elite. 

I think you have a point here about love. I don’t think he comes out though. But if he dropped far enough he could be a good project to take a risk on. The only issue is do you trust having him as a backup. Because if you draft him he is your backup and hoyer and Kelly are gone.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

7 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Actually good is the enemy of great.

 

OL

Top 5 even with a QB who has a bottom 10 time-to-throw

Top 5 even with Ds selling out to stop the run because they don't respect our passing

 

Rushing game

Ranked 10th in the league Y/G even though teams are focusing primarily on stopping it

Mack is 8th in the league

 

Receiving game

Hilton - 4x Pro Bowler, who has led the league in yards

Ebron - Also a Pro Bowler who led all TEs in TDs, and 2nd overall (including WRs)

Doyle - Another TE with a Pro Bowl under his belt

Hines - Was close to setting rookie records last year for a receiving RB

The rest - you have a few vets that Luck used efficiently last year. You have a high priced one year rental that got hurt. You have a promising rookie that has been plagued by injury.

 

In short, the OL and running game are top 10. We have arguably the best TE duo in the league, and 3rd in the NFL on TE spending. We have WR1 that has proven he's one of the best in the league. We have a receiving RB who was just a bit outside of the top 10 (RB receiving yards) last year. 

 

The passing game and all components have taken a big step back this year, with arguably better receiving parts than last year. The glaring deficiencies point to one position, not to holes all over the offense.

 

You make no sense. You say better receiving parts but then go on to list all the injuries. We will soon find out what this offense can be because we should have everyone back very soon. Reich has failed to use Hines like he did last year. With the injuries we have had I think Jacoby has done pretty well. Not every QB is like a Wilson or Rogers that make everyone around them better. That is rare. 

[EastStreet]

19 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

You make no sense. You say better receiving parts but then go on to list all the injuries. We will soon find out what this offense can be because we should have everyone back very soon. Reich has failed to use Hines like he did last year. With the injuries we have had I think Jacoby has done pretty well. Not every QB is like a Wilson or Rogers that make everyone around them better. That is rare. 

It makes no sense to you because you totally whiffed on the context of the conversation. Please read the post chain I was replying to. If it still doesn't make sense, I'll try explaining... 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

17 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

It makes no sense to you because you totally whiffed on the context of the conversation. Please read the post chain I was replying to. If it still doesn't make sense, I'll try explaining... 

No the last part of that post you blamed it all on the QB. 

[Dingus McGirt]

On 11/10/2019 at 9:30 PM, IndySouthsider said:

If anyone take Jalen Hurts in the first round, my god that would be terrible.

The media hype will make it happen, IMO.

[EastStreet]

12 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

No the last part of that post you blamed it all on the QB. 

The earlier post was about the O not being built. I illustrated that we have plenty of weapons (as good or better than last year), and our passing game has taken a huge step back. It has more to do with QB and perhaps scheme/coaching, than anything else. The clearest indications of this are TY's numbers (YPG, YPC) are way down (excluding injury) even though he's getting the same number of catches per game.

 

I'm sorry, but all stats, both direct and indirect point to the passer. Again, not saying coaching/scheme is not an impact, and not saying he can't improve, but the point is, we have very solid components surrounding JB, yet the passing game is clearly worst part of our team.

[zibby43]

1 hour ago, GoatBeard said:

I think a guy like Jordan Love is exactly the type of QB we need. His stock has dropped a bit, but he certainly has the talent to develop behind Brissett and possibly provide some competition, without costing us a high pick. You can bring him along slowly and see what you have after next season. 

 

As far as the rest of the offense, I think people tend to think any performance issue is a talent issue, when that's hardly the case most of the time. I think we have a pretty good set of TEs. I would like to see them move on from Ebron and replace him with a young athletic pass catcher with a more reliable mental makeup. I would like to see them move Hines to the slot to replace Rogers. I would like to see them either give Jordan Wilkins more of an opportunity or find someone similar to share carries with Mack. But that's about it. A good offense to me is simply consistent. I don't care about being more explosive, not even a little bit. We have enough of that with Hilton and Ebron, when Ebron is on his game at least. If we can replace him with a more reliable target, I'm happy. 

 

Defensively, we need a top notch DL and maybe a corner. If we can do that, this defense will be elite. 

 

I agree 100% with most of what you said.  I agree on letting Ebron walk.  He has regressed to his normal play this year.

 

I disagree about WR.  Hilton is 30 and had several lower-body injuries this year.  Colts need a few explosive WRs.  Supposedly Ballard has watched ND's Chase Claypool a few times this year; big-bodied, ultra-competitive WR that is also a special teams stud.  Can probably steal him in the 2nd or 3rd and paired with Funchess, Campbell, and Hilton, you have a pretty solid WR corps.

 

I am really impressed with Love.  A few people have alluded to Jordan Love's stats this year.  I almost died laughing when I saw them criticize his 2019 stat line.

 

Last year, as a SO, Love had 32 TDs against 6 INTs and finished the season with a rating of 158.0.

Let that sink in.  He had a nearly perfect (158.3) rating for the ENTIRE season.  Playing at Utah State. 

 

Furthermore, sure, scouts look at a guy's statistics.  That's a small part of the equation.  More important are: 1) traits (arm strength, the spin/trajectory of thrown balls, size, height, mobility) and 2) intangibles (vision, leadership, the ability to throw "touch" passes, the ability to throw off-platform, the ability to move in the pocket and keep eyes downfield, the willingness to throw WRs open, the ability to throw into tight windows).

 

When I look at Love's tape, he reminds me of Patrick Mahomes.  His most recent game this season was his best of the year.  His WRs haven't helped him much this year (tons of drops), but he still throws a beautiful deep ball and can make every single throw the NFL requires.

 

 

 

 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

54 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

The earlier post was about the O not being built. I illustrated that we have plenty of weapons (as good or better than last year), and our passing game has taken a huge step back. It has more to do with QB and perhaps scheme/coaching, than anything else. The clearest indications of this are TY's numbers (YPG, YPC) are way down (excluding injury) even though he's getting the same number of catches per game.

 

I'm sorry, but all stats, both direct and indirect point to the passer. Again, not saying coaching/scheme is not an impact, and not saying he can't improve, but the point is, we have very solid components surrounding JB, yet the passing game is clearly worst part of our team.

Sure like it doesn’t have anything to do with injuries. Or the fact Reich is still getting used to the QB. One that was given the keys 2 weeks before the season. If things are still the same next season you will have a point. The bottom line there are few rare QB that can make average WR good.  You lose TY you lose speed. Campbell was doing great using his speed in the Steelers game before he got injured again. You can’t win without some speed. 3 of the 4 losses were without TY.

[EastStreet]

11 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

Sure like it doesn’t have anything to do with injuries. Or the fact Reich is still getting used to the QB. One that was given the keys 2 weeks before the season. If things are still the same next season you will have a point. The bottom line there are few rare QB that can make average WR good.  You lose TY you lose speed. Campbell was doing great using his speed in the Steelers game before he got injured again. You can’t win without some speed. 3 of the 4 losses were without TY.

JB had most if not almost all of the 1st team reps in TC and preseason. And Reich also had to get used to Luck last year.....

 

We had injuries last year and WR and TEs missed games (TY, Doyle, Grant, + more). And last year we had musical chairs in the OL and without Mack the first third of the year. 

 

Injuries happen to every team every year, and if you are going to use injuries as an excuse, you need to look at the same for last year. JB has had the benefit of Mack and a great OL all year, while Luck only had 2/3rds of the year. He's also had two quality TEs where Luck really had just one most of the year.

[superrep1967]

Jacoby Brissett we don't need to draft one we have one. 

[Matthew Gilbert]

21 hours ago, Valpo2004 said:

The concern with Fromm is that he always had great help around him and his upside is all between the ears.  In terms of arm strength and athleticism he's limited.  

 

High floor I suppose but low ceiling.  Feels like his ceiling could be Tom Brady today in his 40's.  

Have you ever seen Jake Fromm throw a football? Arm strength is not a concern for me at all. I could agree with the athleticism part but it's not like you have to be Lamar Jackson to play the position. 

 

I think his ceiling is more like a Drew Brees in his prime rather than a 40 year old Tom Brady.

[needanoline63]

Can any of them play defensive tackle or corner? 

[Valpo2004]

1 hour ago, Matthew Gilbert said:

Have you ever seen Jake Fromm throw a football? Arm strength is not a concern for me at all. I could agree with the athleticism part but it's not like you have to be Lamar Jackson to play the position. 

 

I think his ceiling is more like a Drew Brees in his prime rather than a 40 year old Tom Brady.

 

Can you show me some highlights you are referring to, because the highlights I've seen of him the football doesn't look like it has a ton of zip on it.  

 

Because honestly if you take out the arm strength issue, I'm all in on Fromm.  Athleticism is nice but a lot of guys have been great QB's without it.  

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

9 hours ago, EastStreet said:

JB had most if not almost all of the 1st team reps in TC and preseason. And Reich also had to get used to Luck last year.....

 

We had injuries last year and WR and TEs missed games (TY, Doyle, Grant, + more). And last year we had musical chairs in the OL and without Mack the first third of the year. 

 

Injuries happen to every team every year, and if you are going to use injuries as an excuse, you need to look at the same for last year. JB has had the benefit of Mack and a great OL all year, while Luck only had 2/3rds of the year. He's also had two quality TEs where Luck really had just one most of the year.

You missed the point again. Reps in TC are different then actually having the keys and being the man. There is a Ebron interview where he basically says that about Jacoby and how he was just holding things down for Luck. What would the Texans look like without Watson, Hopkins, stills, coutee. They would be crap. That’s basically what we have had the last two weeks with this offense and everyone being out. You refuse to even to believe there might be another issue with the offense outside of the QB. He is only a part of the issue.

[Imgrandojji]

11 hours ago, EastStreet said:

Actually good is the enemy of great.

 

OL

Top 5 even with a QB who has a bottom 10 time-to-throw

Top 5 even with Ds selling out to stop the run because they don't respect our passing

 

Agreed here, the OL is legit

 

11 hours ago, EastStreet said:

 

Rushing game

Ranked 10th in the league Y/G even though teams are focusing primarily on stopping it

Mack is 8th in the league

 

So decent, but not exactly setting the world on fire.  And disappearing in a few games here and there  because even with an elite oline, there are teams that can stop our rushing attack cold. 

 

If you want to talk about "good but not elite," start with the run game.  Again, not terrible, will produce most of the time but not exactly a dominant force out there.  I'd honestly rather trust Brissett against a good secondary than Mack against a good front 7 right now. 

 

11 hours ago, EastStreet said:

Receiving game

Hilton - 4x Pro Bowler, who has led the league in yards

 

Also playing hurt for most of the last 2 years. 

 

Still good -- great even.  And not surprising that JB has a bad habit of staring him down when he's the only receiver we have on the field most games who is actually a household name. 

 

  But we've been wearing him out and he's nearing the end of his career.  Speedsters don't age well, especially when their wheels start to go bad, and we're beginning to see signs of that with TY.  IMHO, TY's career ends in the next 2-3 seasons.

 

11 hours ago, EastStreet said:

Ebron - Also a Pro Bowler who led all TEs in TDs, and 2nd overall (including WRs)

 

Has the hands of the Michelin Man though, solid rubber.  Ebron's gotten his targets this year mostly by default.  I wouldn't trust the guy to catch a cold if the chips are down.

 

11 hours ago, EastStreet said:

Doyle - Another TE with a Pro Bowl under his belt

You'll never hear me say a bad word about Doyle, but he's a complimentary piece in a good offense.  Great guy to have, not a superstar by any means.

 

11 hours ago, EastStreet said:

Hines - Was close to setting rookie records last year for a receiving RB

 

Hines impresses me, but he's another guy who can't be a focus of the offense.  He's an ambush player, best used as a change of pace if the D get too locked in.  Solid complimentary piece in the mold of James White.  Not gonna carry a major part of the offensive load on his own.  Also I'm not really impressed by how Reich has utilized him

 

11 hours ago, EastStreet said:

The rest - you have a few vets that Luck used efficiently last year. You have a high priced one year rental that got hurt. You have a promising rookie that has been plagued by injury.

 

In short exactly what i said -- spare parts, complimentary pieces and guys who you have to roll the dice and pray that they have a good game/season.  And the only guy in that group who's a lock to be effective has been hurt all year this year and was hurt all year last year.

 

again these are guys who you can use to compliment a strong receiving corps.  If these guys are your "strong" receiving corps you're in for an interesting year, to put it mildly.

 

We have a stable full of pieces that have the potential to be effective but most of them are either inconsistent, injured, or just good not great.  Couple that with a QB who's still learning and it's amazing that we were ever 5-2.

 

So to sum up.  We have a great OL, a pretty good RB unit, and a spit-and-baling-wire WR corps, and we no longer have the elite QB who made it all look like an NFL offense.  

 

Brissett is good, but he's a tactician and team leader out there, not an elite thrower. 

 

Brissett makes his bones by not making mistakes out there and by stringing together enough well-executed drives to keep the team in the fight.  You have to get a guy like that actual offensive weapons, they won't elevate scrap heap pieces into being an NFL offense like a guy like Luck or Brady can.  You can win with them, but not if Ballard continues to cheap out at WR.

[Matthew Gilbert]

47 minutes ago, Valpo2004 said:

 

Can you show me some highlights you are referring to, because the highlights I've seen of him the football doesn't look like it has a ton of zip on it.  

 

Because honestly if you take out the arm strength issue, I'm all in on Fromm.  Athleticism is nice but a lot of guys have been great QB's without it.  

I wouldn't say he has the strongest arm in the class, but I think it's more than adequate.

[Coffeedrinker]

10 hours ago, zibby43 said:

Last year, as a SO, Love had 32 TDs against 6 INTs and finished the season with a rating of 158.0.

Let that sink in.  He had a nearly perfect (158.3) rating for the ENTIRE season.  Playing at Utah State. 

 

 

Just wanted to point out that the college QB rating is different than the NFL QB rating.  In the NFL a 158.3 is perfect.  In college a there is no real limit on the max QB rating so no perfect score.

[richard pallo]

6 minutes ago, Imgrandojji said:

 

Agreed here, the OL is legit

 

 

So decent, but not exactly setting the world on fire.  And disappearing in a few games here and there  because even with an elite oline, there are teams that can stop our rushing attack cold. 

 

If you want to talk about "good but not elite," start with the run game.  Again, not terrible, will produce most of the time but not exactly a dominant force out there.  I'd honestly rather trust Brissett against a good secondary than Mack against a good front 7 right now. 

 

 

Also playing hurt for most of the last 2 years. 

 

Still good -- great even.  And not surprising that JB has a bad habit of staring him down when he's the only receiver we have on the field most games who is actually a household name. 

 

  But we've been wearing him out and he's nearing the end of his career.  Speedsters don't age well, especially when their wheels start to go bad, and we're beginning to see signs of that with TY.  IMHO, TY's career ends in the next 2-3 seasons.

 

 

Has the hands of the Michelin Man though, solid rubber.  Ebron's gotten his targets this year mostly by default.  I wouldn't trust the guy to catch a cold if the chips are down.

 

You'll never hear me say a bad word about Doyle, but he's a complimentary piece in a good offense.  Great guy to have, not a superstar by any means.

 

 

Hines impresses me, but he's another guy who can't be a focus of the offense.  He's an ambush player, best used as a change of pace if the D get too locked in.  Solid complimentary piece in the mold of James White.  Not gonna carry a major part of the offensive load on his own.  Also I'm not really impressed by how Reich has utilized him

 

 

In short exactly what i said -- spare parts, complimentary pieces and guys who you have to roll the dice and pray that they have a good game/season.  And the only guy in that group who's a lock to be effective has been hurt all year this year and was hurt all year last year.

 

again these are guys who you can use to compliment a strong receiving corps.  If these guys are your "strong" receiving corps you're in for an interesting year, to put it mildly.

 

We have a stable full of pieces that have the potential to be effective but most of them are either inconsistent, injured, or just good not great.  Couple that with a QB who's still learning and it's amazing that we were ever 5-2.

 

So to sum up.  We have a great OL, a pretty good RB unit, and a spit-and-baling-wire WR corps, and we no longer have the elite QB who made it all look like an NFL offense.  

 

Brissett is good, but he's a tactician and team leader out there, not an elite thrower. 

 

Brissett makes his bones by not making mistakes out there and by stringing together enough well-executed drives to keep the team in the fight.  You have to get a guy like that actual offensive weapons, they won't elevate scrap heap pieces into being an NFL offense like a guy like Luck or Brady can.  You can win with them, but not if Ballard continues to cheap out at WR.

I think the WR situation really needs to be addressed this off season and hopefully with a young vet.  It really needs a shot of expresso.  Writing here today the guy I think could help us immediately is Amari Cooper.   If they pay Dak first then signing Cooper might become difficult.  They could franchise him but I wouldn't be afraid to trade our 1st for him.  We are still going to have a high 2nd with the Washington pick.  Cooper with TY and the rest would be really explosive.  We are a long way off to the off season and a lot will change.  Maybe Funchess gets going.  I hope so.  But if he doesn't I like the idea of making a bold move at WR.  I'm pretty happy with the development of our young rookies especially on defense.  Willis has already supplanted Gaethers and Rock and Tell look promising as well as a few others.  Jacoby needs another WR who can get open and that teams have to account for.  TY is it right now.  We are hoping Campbell will develop but so far we don't know if he will and it could take some time.  I'm still hoping we can make a run this year but I think the absence of TY really shows how dependent we are on him.  If no one steps up in the second half I can see Ballard making a move for a vet like he tried to do with Funchess.   He has the money to acquire Cooper and pay him and he's young.  So far he's been pretty frugal.  We shall see if this offseason is when he decides to become more aggressive.  

[Coffeedrinker]

As big of a Michigan fan as I am, I'm going to go on record and say, No Shea Patterson please.

 

Now, if the Colts wait a year then take Dylan McCaffery after he leads Big Blue to the National Championship next year, that may be an option.

[Imgrandojji]

20 minutes ago, richard pallo said:

I think the WR situation really needs to be addressed this off season and hopefully with a young vet.  It really needs a shot of expresso.  Writing here today the guy I think could help us immediately is Amari Cooper.   If they pay Dak first then signing Cooper might become difficult.  They could franchise him but I wouldn't be afraid to trade our 1st for him.  We are still going to have a high 2nd with the Washington pick.  Cooper with TY and the rest would be really explosive.  We are a long way off to the off season and a lot will change.  Maybe Funchess gets going.  I hope so.  But if he doesn't I like the idea of making a bold move at WR.  I'm pretty happy with the development of our young rookies especially on defense.  Willis has already supplanted Gaethers and Rock and Tell look promising as well as a few others.  Jacoby needs another WR who can get open and that teams have to account for.  TY is it right now.  We are hoping Campbell will develop but so far we don't know if he will and it could take some time.  I'm still hoping we can make a run this year but I think the absence of TY really shows how dependent we are on him.  If no one steps up in the second half I can see Ballard making a move for a vet like he tried to do with Funchess.   He has the money to acquire Cooper and pay him and he's young.  So far he's been pretty frugal.  We shall see if this offseason is when he decides to become more aggressive.  

My concern right now is that this frugality is what Ballard is, rather than a phase he's taking the team through beause we're rebuilding. 

 

There's a very strong temptation for GMs to fall in love with themselves and assume that the formula that got them to the playoffs the first time is THE formula.  I hope Ballard isn't that guy, but we've seen nothing yet to suggest otherwise.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

Ballard did not fail to address the WR position. There isn’t much you can do when you lose three WR. Your not going to have a stud as your fifth or sixth WR.

[EastStreet]

1 hour ago, Chloe6124 said:

You missed the point again. Reps in TC are different then actually having the keys and being the man. There is a Ebron interview where he basically says that about Jacoby and how he was just holding things down for Luck. What would the Texans look like without Watson, Hopkins, stills, coutee. They would be crap. That’s basically what we have had the last two weeks with this offense and everyone being out. You refuse to even to believe there might be another issue with the offense outside of the QB. He is only a part of the issue.

You continue to reach with anecdotal and subjective reasoning. All objective data points to one area. Sure there are some other issues, but he's the largest by far. Hope he is fired up and come back ready to rock and roll. And I hope Reich opens things up. If he improves, awesome. If we keep muddling along, that's a problem.

[colt18]

I can get behind Brissett being our QB of the future. 
 

I cannot however, get behind Hoyer backing him up. I’d rather have Kaepernick.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

11 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

You continue to reach with anecdotal and subjective reasoning. All objective data points to one area. Sure there are some other issues, but he's the largest by far. Hope he is fired up and come back ready to rock and roll. And I hope Reich opens things up. If he improves, awesome. If we keep muddling along, that's a problem.

Well your probably going to see the same thing Sunday. Until we have our WR back we have no speed. Johnson has some speed so hopefully he will have a connection with Jacoby with a week of practice. Right now we are slow. Things would of been totally different this year if TY had stayed  healthy and Campbell hadn’t started out with all his injuries. Campbell never really got going with missing camp and two injuries causing him to miss games. Then not to mention Cain was supposed to be worked in slowly and with the Funchess injury he wasn’t ready for the spotlight. You simply can’t ignore the injuries at WR. We don’t have a Wilson or a Rogers. Those guys are very rare. 

 

As far as Ballard not addressing the WR issue. What else was he supposed to do. He actually kept one extra WR. Guys get injured. This year it hit at a really bad time. 

 

[EastStreet]

1 hour ago, Imgrandojji said:

 

Agreed here, the OL is legit

 

 

So decent, but not exactly setting the world on fire.  And disappearing in a few games here and there  because even with an elite oline, there are teams that can stop our rushing attack cold. 

 

If you want to talk about "good but not elite," start with the run game.  Again, not terrible, will produce most of the time but not exactly a dominant force out there.  I'd honestly rather trust Brissett against a good secondary than Mack against a good front 7 right now. 

 

 

Also playing hurt for most of the last 2 years. 

 

Still good -- great even.  And not surprising that JB has a bad habit of staring him down when he's the only receiver we have on the field most games who is actually a household name. 

 

  But we've been wearing him out and he's nearing the end of his career.  Speedsters don't age well, especially when their wheels start to go bad, and we're beginning to see signs of that with TY.  IMHO, TY's career ends in the next 2-3 seasons.

 

 

Has the hands of the Michelin Man though, solid rubber.  Ebron's gotten his targets this year mostly by default.  I wouldn't trust the guy to catch a cold if the chips are down.

 

You'll never hear me say a bad word about Doyle, but he's a complimentary piece in a good offense.  Great guy to have, not a superstar by any means.

 

 

Hines impresses me, but he's another guy who can't be a focus of the offense.  He's an ambush player, best used as a change of pace if the D get too locked in.  Solid complimentary piece in the mold of James White.  Not gonna carry a major part of the offensive load on his own.  Also I'm not really impressed by how Reich has utilized him

 

 

In short exactly what i said -- spare parts, complimentary pieces and guys who you have to roll the dice and pray that they have a good game/season.  And the only guy in that group who's a lock to be effective has been hurt all year this year and was hurt all year last year.

 

again these are guys who you can use to compliment a strong receiving corps.  If these guys are your "strong" receiving corps you're in for an interesting year, to put it mildly.

 

We have a stable full of pieces that have the potential to be effective but most of them are either inconsistent, injured, or just good not great.  Couple that with a QB who's still learning and it's amazing that we were ever 5-2.

 

So to sum up.  We have a great OL, a pretty good RB unit, and a spit-and-baling-wire WR corps, and we no longer have the elite QB who made it all look like an NFL offense.  

 

Brissett is good, but he's a tactician and team leader out there, not an elite thrower. 

 

Brissett makes his bones by not making mistakes out there and by stringing together enough well-executed drives to keep the team in the fight.  You have to get a guy like that actual offensive weapons, they won't elevate scrap heap pieces into being an NFL offense like a guy like Luck or Brady can.  You can win with them, but not if Ballard continues to cheap out at WR.

I think you are very unfair about the running game. The fact we are top 10 with teams constantly keying on the run can not be ignored. If we had a passing game at all that teams respected, our yards per carry would be significantly hire. 

 

On the pass catchers.... It sounds like you want multiple WR1s lol. Our "complimentary" players as you call them have all showed they are capable of a lot more productivity with a better QB. Very few teams have as many good "complimentary" players that we have.

 

Sure, TY will need to be replaced in a couple years, but his drop in production isn't because he's slowing or hurt (we're looking at averages when healthy). They've dropped because JBs air yards aren't good, and the ball is forced to him a lot. He already has as many drops this year as he did all of last year.

 

IMO, spending a bunch of money on WRs would be a waist until JB learns to go vertical and is able to go through progressions better and faster. In his current state, he's best with possession type WRs and TEs. And Funch is that type of WR, and will be back soon. But, he'll be like just like another TE or big Pascal.... 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

Huh. How have the wr proven they would be better with a different QB. Pascal is having a career year. Rogers has been about the same. Campbell has never played with another QB. Funchess has only played one game. Then there is cain who has never played with another QB. That argument is dumb.

[aaron11]

15 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

Huh. How have the wr proven they would be better with a different QB. 

 

every one of them was better with luck last year, not counting the rookies.  the team tied a record for most different receivers to catch a TD too

[SteelCityColt]

1 hour ago, Chloe6124 said:

Huh. How have the wr proven they would be better with a different QB. Pascal is having a career year. Rogers has been about the same. Campbell has never played with another QB. Funchess has only played one game. Then there is cain who has never played with another QB. That argument is dumb.

 

Hilton? Ebron? 

 

Outside his Rookie year, can you name the only season he's not gone over 1000 yards? Even factoring for the games he's missed with injury, if he'd played in those games he's still on pace to go below 1000 yards. His yard/reception is also significantly lower because he's not getting usual chunk plays. 

 

Rogers stats are also  down on last year in terms of yards, but he's got some TDs which nice.

 

Whichever way you want to cut it, the Offense isn't as explosive, or capable of making chunk plays as last year.  

[EastStreet]

48 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

Well your probably going to see the same thing Sunday. Until we have our WR back we have no speed. Johnson has some speed so hopefully he will have a connection with Jacoby with a week of practice. Right now we are slow. Things would of been totally different this year if TY had stayed  healthy and Campbell hadn’t started out with all his injuries. Campbell never really got going with missing camp and two injuries causing him to miss games. Then not to mention Cain was supposed to be worked in slowly and with the Funchess injury he wasn’t ready for the spotlight. You simply can’t ignore the injuries at WR. We don’t have a Wilson or a Rogers. Those guys are very rare. 

 

As far as Ballard not addressing the WR issue. What else was he supposed to do. He actually kept one extra WR. Guys get injured. This year it hit at a really bad time. 

They need to use Hines in creative ways as he's a good pass catcher and has speed. Put him at slot. Between him, Pascal, Ebron, and Doyle, we've got enough possession type guys. Luck used Rogers a lot, so while not flashy, we know he's capable. 

[throwing BBZ]

 Ballard invested pretty heavily with Funchess, a 2nd on Campbell, and Fountain was developing nicely. And Cain sure seemed like a good prospect.
 It isn't like a lot of thought and investment hasn't been on the table.
 Because of this, we should expect the position to continue to be a priority.
  The idea that Pascal, Campbell, & Fountain would be our 3,4,5 guys next season sounds good to me today. And one might become a solid 2.

 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

23 minutes ago, aaron11 said:

 

every one of them was better with luck last year, not counting the rookies.  the team tied a record for most different receivers to catch a TD too

That is flat out false. Pascal already had his stats beat from last year halfway through the season. Funchess never played with Luck and got one game with JB. Campbell has never played with another nfl QB. Neither has Cain.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

13 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

They need to use Hines in creative ways as he's a good pass catcher and has speed. Put him at slot. Between him, Pascal, Ebron, and Doyle, we've got enough possession type guys. Luck used Rogers a lot, so while not flashy, we know he's capable. 

Hines has been underused all season. Yes right now we have to many possession guys. But that is because of injury more then anything. And Cain not being ready.

[EastStreet]

2 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

Hines has been underused all season. Yes right now we have to many possession guys. But that is because of injury more then anything. And Cain not being ready.

Unless you're willing to go deep, that's really all you need (possession guys).

[Valpo2004]

2 hours ago, Matthew Gilbert said:

I wouldn't say he has the strongest arm in the class, but I think it's more than adequate.

 

Does seem like the arm strength issue is a bit overplayed.  

 

I like him, I'd rank him as #3.  A few of the other QB's they talked about difficulty going through progressions and stuff like that.  Fromm doesn't have that problem

 

Seems to me that progressions, looking off receivers, throwing guys open is the stuff that separates busts with big arms from franchise QB's.  

[aaron11]

27 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

That is flat out false. Pascal already had his stats beat from last year halfway through the season. Funchess never played with Luck and got one game with JB. Campbell has never played with another nfl QB. Neither has Cain.

last year we spread the ball around, its not false at all.  we cant talk about guys that were not here, so cain, campbell and funchess are not in this

 

pascal had a great TD catch last year on possibility the best throw of lucks career. ebron was clearly better and hines was too

 

the one guy thats improved his catching is mack

[shasta519]

15 hours ago, EastStreet said:

Actually good is the enemy of great.

 

OL

Top 5 even with a QB who has a bottom 10 time-to-throw

Top 5 even with Ds selling out to stop the run because they don't respect our passing

 

Rushing game

Ranked 10th in the league Y/G even though teams are focusing primarily on stopping it

Mack is 8th in the league

 

Receiving game

Hilton - 4x Pro Bowler, who has led the league in yards

Ebron - Also a Pro Bowler who led all TEs in TDs, and 2nd overall (including WRs)

Doyle - Another TE with a Pro Bowl under his belt

Hines - Was close to setting rookie records last year for a receiving RB

The rest - you have a few vets that Luck used efficiently last year. You have a high priced one year rental that got hurt. You have a promising rookie that has been plagued by injury.

 

In short, the OL and running game are top 10. We have arguably the best TE duo in the league, and 3rd in the NFL on TE spending. We have WR1 that has proven he's one of the best in the league. We have a receiving RB who was just a bit outside of the top 10 (RB receiving yards) last year. 

 

The passing game and all components have taken a big step back this year, with arguably better receiving parts than last year. The glaring deficiencies point to one position, not to holes all over the offense.

 

 

I would say it's a combination...and I don't the offense is great overall...from a talent standpoint...outside of the OL.

 

WR

Hilton is a stud, but aging. After him...WR is pretty weak. Campbell as upside...and Pascal looks servicable. Calling it an average group is probably generous.

 

TE

Doyle is a solid functional TE...but never been a top player at the position...and he will be 30. His one Pro Bowl (alternate) year was because Kelce and Gronk didn't play. And that was the 2017 season with JB under center...and Doyle was the checkdown option. Ebron is what he is...who had one monster year with TDs...but is largely an overrated pass-catcher. I hope they look to upgrade the position after this season (please LAC...let Henry walk).

 

RB

The running game is top 10ish...I guess...but they also run more than most team teams. They are #5 in rush attempts...but #11 in yards. They only have 4 rushing TDs on the season...and have struggled running the ball in the RZ. Mack is a decent enough RB. He blew up against a terrible (at the time) LAC run defense...and since then...it's been a mixed bag.

 

Mack is also limited as a pass-catcher...and Hines is not an NFL RB...so the RB skillset is limited overall and makes the offense predictable. Hines is a solid pass-catcher...but pretty average. 

 

Wilkins is a decent RB2...but doesn't move the needle.

 

I agree that QB has held back the offense this year...and it's an area I truly hope they have an open-mind about going forward. But I also hope they are only getting started on the offensive side of the ball...because it needs work...if they are serious about competing in the future.