Von Miller rejects 114.5 million dollar offer

[21isSuperman]

3 hours ago, Valpo2004 said:

 

Umm to be fair ALL of those guys except Tom Brady's last ring where won before their current contracts.  And most where being paid significantly less.  Especially Wilson

 

I will grant that many of those guys are on contending teams, but the rings argument doesn't count for much IMO.

 

Also what I'm noticing about the article is that it never mentions how long the 114.5 M contract is for or how much guaranteed money is in it.

 

Perhaps the length of the contract was too long for his liking.  Perhaps it didn't give him enough guaranteed money.  A 10 year 114.5 M contract with only $5 M in guaranteed money should be rejected outright.  

 

I think we need more information then what's given. 

My point was that QBs play a significantly higher role in a team winning a championship (or even a game) than any other single position.  They literally touch the ball on every play for which they're on the field.  However, I understand your point.

 

In terms of contract length, I thought I read somewhere that the $114.5 mil deal was for 6 years, but I may be mistaking that with something else

[southwest1]

16 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

 The game is by nature a very violent game without allowing a player to use assault tactics to purposely cause a concussion or to use his hands as a weapon. Sorry, I cant say I miss that. I am not in favor of any player purposely hurting another and IMO allowing that is exactly why it is not allowed anymore. There are plenty of other sports that has that type of violence that is permissible. Boxing, MMA and hockey come to mind. We get to know these players and to watch another player hurt another player with the intent to injure is over the line IMO. These players are playing for their livelihood and to allow those types of actions goes a lot deeper than playing football as a sport. Sorry, with respect this is one we will have to disagree upon. Next subject?

That's perfectly fine. I understand where you are coming from CC1 concerning a player's quality of life after their NFL career is over. Rules change over the years regarding what conduct is acceptable or not when it comes to gaining a competitive edge. So, I wouldn't exactly deem Deacon Jones head slap as malicious given the era he played ball in. But, I get your point though: As time passes, medical science evolves & improves resulting in banning certain moves making the game safer for all players from a concussion perspective by 2016. 

 

All I meant was that the NFL game can swing the pendulum too far in the preventive safety direction for it's own good losing something vital in this transformation that's all. 

 

No harm done CC1. Friends don't always see eye to eye on everything. That's just life.  

[wig]

21 hours ago, 21isSuperman said:

 

If you want to invest a lot of money into one position, make it your QB.  Giving a defensive player $20 mil a year is a mistake, in my opinion.

 

How exactly do you propose they miracle a QB worth top flight money?

[crazycolt1]

15 minutes ago, wig said:

 

How exactly do you propose they miracle a QB worth top flight money?

There are QBs in the league right now who are making what you call top flight money that most don't think are worth it. If teams don't want to pay there are teams who will. No need to go into detail because most of us have a pretty good idea who these QBs are. In opinion anyway.

[southwest1]

8 hours ago, 21isSuperman said:

For every rule, there are exceptions.  I would rather pay big money to an elite QB, but yes, there are cases where elite QBs don't win Super Bowls (eg. Dan Marino) and very meh QBs win them (Brad Johnson, Trent Dilfer) because of the team they have.  I'm of the opinion that you should invest your money into your defense and OL if you have an elite QB, like we do.  I think a good QB can make his WRs/TEs/RBs better with his play.  Give him a good OL that gives him time to stand in the pocket and he will find the open guy.  Give him a defense that will stop the other team and he can take a few risks and be more aggressive. 

 

Of course, there are two sides to it.  On the one hand, he's an elite QB, so let him use his elite talents to make those around him better.  Invest into the defense and OL.  On the other hand, he's an elite QB, so surround him with playmakers to maximize his potential.

 

When the Broncos signed Peyton, Elway made a number of moves to improve the defensive side of the ball.  His first picks in 2012-2015 were all defensive players.  He made big splashes in free agency with TJ Ward, Aqib Talib, and DeMarcus Ware.  I remember some people were complaining that Elway should be giving Peyton more playmakers, but that's what Polian had done in Indy and it only resulted in 1 Super Bowl in 10+ years.

 

It may seem contradictory, but it isn't.  If it comes down to a single position getting $20 mil a year, it should be your QB.  After that, spend more money on defense than offense because your highly paid QB should be able to make those around him better.

You're right about John Elway who tried both approaches in Denver as the VP of Football Operations. He lost to Seattle in 2013 with a high octane offense & then he altered his approach in 2015 getting Manning an elite secondary & a smothering defense. The true MVP was actually DC Wade Phillips & John's best sideline hire IMO. 

 

We're not far apart here 21. 9 times out of 10, the bulk of your salary cap needs to be spent on the QB. All I'm saying is much like CD said better than I did there are elite pass rushers worthy of QB money. JJ Watt, Chandler Jones, Calais Campbell...Okay, Calais may not be elite yet, but he's very good at disrupting QBs anyway. Aaron Donald and Robert Quinn for the Rams are making a name for themselves too. 

[oldunclemark]

20 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

He's got the Broncos by the (you know what). Any team would love to have him. I wish we had him.

Elway has him for 2016..after that, he might let him walk..

.....Von needs to accept THIS offer while its on the table,''I dont think Denver is going to guarantee $60 million

[southwest1]

5 minutes ago, oldunclemark said:

Elway has him for 2016..after that, he might let him walk..

.....Von needs to accept THIS offer while its on the table,''I dont think Denver is going to guarantee $60 million

It will never come to that OUM. Elway & Miller severing ties because much like Ryan Fitzpatrick & Todd Bowles in NY both parties know their current franchises are where the best fiscal deal can be acquired. 

 

Plus, Miller knows that the Broncos are a elite organization &, if you go for the biggest payday, you end up on a crappy team like Suh in Miami. If Von wants another shot at a ring, he remains in Colorado longterm. 

[21isSuperman]

1 hour ago, wig said:

 

How exactly do you propose they miracle a QB worth top flight money?

The point isn't that you go into a lab and create an elite QB and pay him $20 mil a year.  But if the opportunity comes to get an elite QB, that's when you break the bank.  Of course, teams can build their rosters however they like.  If they want to focus solely on their defense, then just have a game manager at QB, that's up to them.  I'm just saying what my opinion is.

 

[wig]

2 hours ago, 21isSuperman said:

The point isn't that you go into a lab and create an elite QB and pay him $20 mil a year.  But if the opportunity comes to get an elite QB, that's when you break the bank.  Of course, teams can build their rosters however they like.  If they want to focus solely on their defense, then just have a game manager at QB, that's up to them.  I'm just saying what my opinion is.

 

 

Who are they supposed to get at QB?  They have no options for the most important position, but have an opportunity to re-sign the best player at the 2nd most important position. 

[21isSuperman]

1 hour ago, wig said:

 

Who are they supposed to get at QB?  They have no options for the most important position, but have an opportunity to re-sign the best player at the 2nd most important position. 

Re-read the second half of the post of mine that you quoted

[chad72]

17 hours ago, oldunclemark said:

Elway has him for 2016..after that, he might let him walk..

.....Von needs to accept THIS offer while its on the table,''I dont think Denver is going to guarantee $60 million

 

Elway wants Von to negotiate. If Elway wants Von to meet in the middle, he has to start low.

 

Just because the Dolphins were *s, Von cannot expect Elway to be one. Even if we say Suh's contract was an outlier, Justin Houston being guaranteed $52 mil. does make it reasonable for Von to expect that much.

 

It might end up at $120 mil. over 6 years and $50 mil. guaranteed, I feel. If $60 mil. is guaranteed, I think there will be lots of incentive driven ways to get it for Von that protects the Broncos at the end.

[Superman]

I'm a contract junkie, and this is not interesting to me at all. I'm confident they'll get this done. I think they'll guarantee ~$40m+ fully, another ~$20m for injury, and then everyone will be happy. The only concerns the Broncos can have is Von getting hurt or getting suspended. Can't do anything about him getting hurt, regardless -- players can't be cut while they're hurt, and the only worry would be a career ending injury anyways -- and if he gets suspended, his guarantees void. 

 

IMO, it's all negotiation. The deadline is July 15, and deadlines spur action. We have a month to go before this gets done.

[ztboiler]

40 minutes ago, Superman said:

I'm a contract junkie, and this is not interesting to me at all. I'm confident they'll get this done. I think they'll guarantee ~$40m+ fully, another ~$20m for injury, and then everyone will be happy. The only concerns the Broncos can have is Von getting hurt or getting suspended. Can't do anything about him getting hurt, regardless -- players can't be cut while they're hurt, and the only worry would be a career ending injury anyways -- and if he gets suspended, his guarantees void. 

 

IMO, it's all negotiation. The deadline is July 15, and deadlines spur action. We have a month to go before this gets done.

It's an interesting spot to negotiate from for both Miller and Elway.  

 

Miller is at the Zenith of a Superbowl win that the team couldn't have won without him, playing a much more influential role than the QB.  Elway has to pay him accordingly, while knowing its very unlikely that Miller can reproduce the same impact, almost by definition - which will put Elway behind the value curve the day of signing. 

 

Tough spot to put an old car dealer in.

 

It's the perfect storm for Miller.

[Superman]

7 minutes ago, ztboiler said:

It's an interesting spot to negotiate from for both Miller and Elway.  

 

Miller is at the Zenith of a Superbowl win that the team couldn't have won without him, playing a much more influential role than the QB.  Elway has to pay him accordingly, while knowing its very unlikely that Miller can reproduce the same impact, almost by definition - which will put Elway behind the value curve the day of signing. 

 

Tough spot to put an old car dealer in.

 

It's the perfect storm for Miller.

 

You look at what Justin Houston and Olivier Vernon got, and Miller's market is obvious. The guaranteed money isn't even hard to figure out, even though it's always misreported.

 

Team stagger and roll guarantees from year to year because they don't want to have to deposit $60m in an escrow account to fund three years of guaranteed money, not because they don't want to pay it. Everyone knows that if they give Miller a $25m signing bonus or whatever it is, they aren't going to be cutting him after two years, period. It's not a matter of principle, from the team's standpoint; it's about function. 

 

Part of the issue with Elway is that they don't like doing big signing bonuses, which affects the way the rest of the money gets paid out. It also makes it easier for them to cut a player after a couple years. But in this case, I'm pretty sure they'll be hitting Von with a big signing bonus, and the rest will be moot. Could be wrong there, though...

[ColtsBlueFL]

On 6/9/2016 at 10:34 AM, OffensivelyPC said:

Yeah, I'd say the guarantees are the issue.  It's reportedly $20m less than Suh's.

 

So that would make it about 58+ million in guarantees then?  I'd never do that for 2 years, but yes for 3. If I'm Elway, I hold firm to the offer or make it 3 years 58 million guaranteed at that rate.  If Miller refuses to sign, then tag him 3 times with the exclusive tag.  From my quick estimation, that would cost around 55 million over 3 years, but if Von gets hurt at any time, they can quickly cut the cord.  There is no huge immediate payout, no future cap issues.  And you get him 3 more years.  Only thing Von can do then is refuse to play and lose millions.  Broncos appear to me to be in the drivers seat here.  The fact they even made the total amount over Suh is surprising to me somewhat.

 

Someone can calculate what the exclusive franchise tag will cost over the next 3 years.  Remember, it’s no longer driven by what players at the same position have made in the prior season, but by the average cap percentage consumed by the franchise tender over five years. And the third year franchise tag is levied at the QB level (non QB player franchised more than 2 times gets QB franchise level money).

[OffensivelyPC]

13 minutes ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

So that would make it about 58+ million in guarantees then?  I'd never do that for 2 years, but yes for 3. If I'm Elway, I hold firm to the offer or make it 3 years 58 million guaranteed at that rate.  If Miller refuses to sign, then tag him 3 times with the exclusive tag.  From my quick estimation, that would cost around 55 million over 3 years, but if Von gets hurt at any time, they can quickly cut the cord.  There is no huge immediate payout, no future cap issues.  And you get him 3 more years.  Only thing Von can do then is refuse to play and lose millions.  Broncos appear to me to be in the drivers seat here.  The fact they even made the total amount over Suh is surprising to me somewhat.

 

Someone can calculate what the exclusive franchise tag will cost over the next 3 years.  Remember, it’s no longer driven by what players at the same position have made in the prior season, but by the average cap percentage consumed by the franchise tender over five years. And the third year franchise tag is levied at the QB level (non QB player franchised more than 2 times gets QB franchise level money).

I am not sure how the payout structure would be, but 60 million guaranteed and 115 million over 6 years for Von Miller would be fine with me, at least in the Broncos case because they don't have a top salaried QB. He'll be on his rookie deal for almost the entirety of Miller's contract  So even if Paxton doesn't work out, they'll be drafting in the upper echelon of the draft and should they draft another QB, you don't have to worry about signing him to a huge deal later at least until Miller's contract is done.  Then you can restructure and see wherey ou're at then.  

[ztboiler]

2 hours ago, Superman said:

 

You look at what Justin Houston and Olivier Vernon got, and Miller's market is obvious. The guaranteed money isn't even hard to figure out, even though it's always misreported.

 

Team stagger and roll guarantees from year to year because they don't want to have to deposit $60m in an escrow account to fund three years of guaranteed money, not because they don't want to pay it. Everyone knows that if they give Miller a $25m signing bonus or whatever it is, they aren't going to be cutting him after two years, period. It's not a matter of principle, from the team's standpoint; it's about function. 

 

Part of the issue with Elway is that they don't like doing big signing bonuses, which affects the way the rest of the money gets paid out. It also makes it easier for them to cut a player after a couple years. But in this case, I'm pretty sure they'll be hitting Von with a big signing bonus, and the rest will be moot. Could be wrong there, though...

I agree with your premise.  The negotiations are really straightforward and uninteresting.  The timing and cards Miller holds are unique.

[Superman]

1 hour ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

If Miller refuses to sign, then tag him 3 times with the exclusive tag.  From my quick estimation, that would cost around 55 million over 3 years, but if Von gets hurt at any time, they can quickly cut the cord

 

It's year by year, so you have no future risk. The tag is determined each offseason, so we don't know exactly what it would be, but about $20m/year for the first two years is right. The third year it goes to 140%, which is when things get tough. 

 

In reality, this doesn't go past 7/15, IMO.

[oldunclemark]

7 hours ago, chad72 said:

 

Elway wants Von to negotiate. If Elway wants Von to meet in the middle, he has to start low.

 

Just because the Dolphins were *s, Von cannot expect Elway to be one. Even if we say Suh's contract was an outlier, Justin Houston being guaranteed $52 mil. does make it reasonable for Von to expect that much.

 

It might end up at $120 mil. over 6 years and $50 mil. guaranteed, I feel. If $60 mil. is guaranteed, I think there will be lots of incentive driven ways to get it for Von that protects the Broncos at the end.

Von is erratic..would you guarantee him $50 mil

[CR91]

On 6/9/2016 at 3:48 PM, shakedownstreet said:

i can relate to von. i just rejected $200 million from my employer 

 

Like a boss

[ColtsBlueFL]

17 hours ago, Superman said:

 

It's year by year, so you have no future risk. The tag is determined each offseason, so we don't know exactly what it would be, but about $20m/year for the first two years is right. The third year it goes to 140%, which is when things get tough. 

 

In reality, this doesn't go past 7/15, IMO.

 

Franchise tag for 2016 on linebacker is just over 14 million.  DE is almost 16 mill, but he wont be tagged at that position. 120% of that plus increse for 2017 would make it around 18 mill by guess.  That's 32 million over two years.  In 2016 QB franchise tag money is 20 million right now.  In 2018 it could be up to 25.  That makes it 57 million.  So just like you said,  it's year to year and still costs under 60 million over 3.  And there is no balloon payment up front that is spread out over the life of the contract, or accelerated cap payment if Miller gets cut at some point.  So to me, Denver has the upper hand.  They can have Von Miller 3 more years for near 60 million whether he wants to sign the deal or not.

[Ollonesomeme]

14 hours ago, oldunclemark said:

Von is erratic..would you guarantee him $50 mil

Yes, as I would for Suh and Watt. He is in their league. He would bring much more than that on the open market. He is a game changer.

[wig]

On 6/9/2016 at 8:48 PM, 21isSuperman said:

Re-read the second half of the post of mine that you quoted

 

I read it and am asking what the alternative is?  They can either sign Miller or have unused cap space. Using that money on a QB that's worth it simply isn't an option at this time. 

[21isSuperman]

4 minutes ago, wig said:

 

I read it and am asking what the alternative is?  They can either sign Miller or have unused cap space. Using that money on a QB that's worth it simply isn't an option at this time. 

That's what I'm saying too.  One option is for a team to completely load up their defense and just have a game manager (eg. Mark Sanchez) at QB.  I don't necessarily agree with that, but if those are the circumstances you have, then you make the best of it.  If the Broncos feel confident paying their defensive stars and trying to stick with a game manager at QB, that's their option.  I personally don't think any defensive player is worth $20+ mil right now, but that's just my opinion

[TheRustonRifle#7]

On 6/8/2016 at 7:53 PM, RockThatBlue said:

I wish my life was so good that I could reject a 114 million dollar contract.

Me too! I feel your pain!

[chad72]

On ‎6‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 9:10 PM, oldunclemark said:

Von is erratic..would you guarantee him $50 mil

 

I don't think Elway has a choice. Unless another franchise is willing to fork up 2 first round picks for him, he will have to play the game with Von and his agent.

[jvan1973]

On 6/10/2016 at 9:10 PM, oldunclemark said:

Von is erratic..would you guarantee him $50 mil

In what way is Von Miller erratic?

[Valpo2004]

On 6/9/2016 at 2:14 PM, CR91 said:

 

I doubt Miller will get undercut. No way Elway risks losing a player of Miller's caliber

 

Eventually he likely will pony up what he wants.  But he's got him for the full year on the franchise tag.  No reason to not see if they can't ink him to a team friendly deal by dazzling him with the dollar signs on something meaningless like the "total contract value"

 

 

[pgt_rob]

2 hours ago, jvan1973 said:

In what way is Von Miller erratic?

He erratically grabs QBs and eats them for breakfast.

[21isSuperman]

Fletcher Cox just signed a 6 year, $103 mil, $63 mil guaranteed deal.  It'll be interesting to see what Miller looks for with that being done.  He will almost certainly want more guaranteed money than that.

[2006Coltsbestever]

6 minutes ago, 21isSuperman said:

Fletcher Cox just signed a 6 year, $103 mil, $63 mil guaranteed deal.  It'll be interesting to see what Miller looks for with that being done.  He will almost certainly want more guaranteed money than that.

Man that's ridiculous! Von is in control at this point. Lets give him a call and ask him to join the Colts  He would be playing with Andrew and on turf where he would be even quicker.

[2006Coltsbestever]

Would you guys give up 2 1st Round picks = 2017 and 2018 and Moncrief for Von?

[Narcosys]

On Wednesday, June 08, 2016 at 7:18 PM, ReMeDy said:

This is what a Superbowl win does to a player's stock. It over-inflates their value. I say let him walk. There are tons of players who'd love to play for a team fresh off a Superbowl.

Not without a qb that can win one. 

[Narcosys]

1 hour ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Would you guys give up 2 1st Round picks = 2017 and 2018 and Moncrief for Von?

No, goodness gravy no.

[chad72]

Look, when they had Von and Dumervil, they could not get close to Flacco and company in 2012. Then Von got injured, suspended and everything in between. Then comes the contract year, and 2 years with DeMarcus Ware really turned things around. Von was used right and when not used as an every down OLB, he was a game changer. A couple of things - Ware won't be around all the time for mentoring Von continually, and second, Elway invested in Shane Ray so that he can take Ware's place opposite Von. So, everything was done with Von sticking around in mind. Now, Elway has to replenish the pass rusher cupboard in order for Von to be as effective as he was last year with enough breathers.

 

The true question is - if Von is going to be paid this much, will his role as a percentage of downs be increased and will that lead to less efficiency?

[21isSuperman]

4 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Would you guys give up 2 1st Round picks = 2017 and 2018 and Moncrief for Von?

No.  Give up 2 first rounds picks and a very good, young receiver with a lot of promise for a pass rusher and have to pay that pass rusher a lot of money.  That's giving up way too much.

[crazycolt1]

8 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Would you guys give up 2 1st Round picks = 2017 and 2018 and Moncrief for Von?

I would say no. 2 first round picks equals 10 years of rookie contracts.

[teganslaw]

14 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Would you guys give up 2 1st Round picks = 2017 and 2018 and Moncrief for Von?

 

No. Von  Miller is good, but not worth giving up two years of 1st round picks. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

I figured you guys would say no. That is a lot. Would you guys do it for next years 1st Rounder in 2017, a 4th Rounder in 2018, and Moncrief. These are all hypotheticals as I haven't heard anything. I am just wondering what you guys would give up for Von for fun.

[Colts_Fan12]

20 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Would you guys give up 2 1st Round picks = 2017 and 2018 and Moncrief for Von?

I'd do the picks but not Moncrief