The ILB position

[Nesjan3]

Since there has been not much to talk about a of late i figured i would start a topic about our ILB position, more specifically Amario Herrara and Junior Sylvestre. 

I was thinking in the limited playing time these guys had last season i feel like they both showed a lot of promise, i especially like Herrara's leadership and Sylvestre looked to be making the roster before he got injured. With the recent departure of Freeman and the possible suspension of DQ maybe Grigsons plan all along has been to start and rotate DQ, Moore, Irving and Herrera and Sylvestre as backups, im thinking of these guys might have the ability to emerge as a starter in maybe a year or two. This in turn would eliminate the need to draft an ILB...just an idea. Thoughts?

[ColtsLegacy]

Herrera won't make the team. I have Sylvestre making it, he's a better athlete than any of our LBs, though, if an ILB or two are drafted he may settle on the PS for now.

[Bravo]

There's a very high chance the Colts are going to make a run at Ragland in the draft. They have been connected to him continuously (more than usual) through the offseason. 

[buccolts]

We lose Freeman, and DQ's likely to be suspended a few games.

The back ups have no track record.

We're ripe to take an ILB early.

 

Ragland is a guy projected around our pick, but lately has fallen to where most feel he's worth a pick beyond us.

 

We show great interest.

Perhaps, hoping someone moves in front of us to rob him from us, dropping another better player down to us.

 

I'm hoping there's a lot of reaching for QBs, WRs, and Zeke before our pick.

 

Just sayin'

[ProblChld32]

49 minutes ago, Nesjan3 said:

Since there has been not much to talk about a of late i figured i would start a topic about our ILB position, more specifically Amario Herrara and Junior Sylvestre. 

I was thinking in the limited playing time these guys had last season i feel like they both showed a lot of promise, i especially like Herrara's leadership and Sylvestre looked to be making the roster before he got injured. With the recent departure of Freeman and the possible suspension of DQ maybe Grigsons plan all along has been to start and rotate DQ, Moore, Irving and Herrera and Sylvestre as backups, im thinking of these guys might have the ability to emerge as a starter in maybe a year or two. This in turn would eliminate the need to draft an ILB...just an idea. Thoughts?

 

I like Moore in the limited snaps he's had. But in all likely hood they will end up drafting a guy. Ragland has been worked out by the Colts. i just hope we dont reach for him when other needs have to be addressed.

[Krauses]

Was a big fan of Junior in preseason last year.  Played sideline to sideline and was always around ball.  But is still far from a sure thing. Amario looked slower and like a backup at best. Hope we take a late round flyer on Terrance smith. Is extremely fast and almost a clone of telvin smith from jags.

[VaAllDay757]

Have sio start and promote herrera to the 53 man roster coming off the bench

[ColtsLegacy]

27 minutes ago, buccolts said:

We lose Freeman, and DQ's likely to be suspended a few games.

The back ups have no track record.

We're ripe to take an ILB early.

 

Ragland is a guy projected around our pick, but lately has fallen to where most feel he's worth a pick beyond us.

 

We show great interest.

Perhaps, hoping someone moves in front of us to rob him from us, dropping another better player down to us.

 

I'm hoping there's a lot of reaching for QBs, WRs, and Zeke before our pick.

 

Just sayin'

 

Nate Irving and Sio Moore have pretty solid track records.

[buccolts]

6 minutes ago, ColtsLegacy said:

 

Nate Irving and Sio Moore have pretty solid track records.

 

But, the Colts haven't exactly given off the vibe that they're sold.

Except for letting Freeman walk.

[OffensivelyPC]

37 minutes ago, buccolts said:

We lose Freeman, and DQ's likely to be suspended a few games.

The back ups have no track record.

We're ripe to take an ILB early.

 

Ragland is a guy projected around our pick, but lately has fallen to where most feel he's worth a pick beyond us.

 

We show great interest.

Perhaps, hoping someone moves in front of us to rob him from us, dropping another better player down to us.

 

I'm hoping there's a lot of reaching for QBs, WRs, and Zeke before our pick.

 

Just sayin'

Our ILB situation isn't so dire as to necessitate taking Ragland.  In fact, we could have 0 ILBs heading into the draft and we still shouldn't take him at 18.

[buccolts]

Just now, OffensivelyPC said:

Our ILB situation isn't so dire as to necessitate taking Ragland.  

 

Agreed, and I don't want him. But someone else may. Perhaps they draft behind us.

I just want him moved up in front of our spot, to move someone else back to our spot.

I'm also not saying that's what's going on. Only that it could be.

[ColtsBlueFL]

7 minutes ago, OffensivelyPC said:

Our ILB situation isn't so dire as to necessitate taking Ragland.  In fact, we could have 0 ILBs heading into the draft and we still shouldn't take him at 18.

 

How good have our ILB's been at stopping the run?  Our DL and ILB needs to finally end this soft  "getting punched in the mouth" vs. the run stuff.  Ragland fits the bill immediately.  So if premier edge guys aren't there at 18 and Ragland is, I'm in.

[ColtsLegacy]

14 minutes ago, buccolts said:

 

But, the Colts haven't exactly given off the vibe that they're sold.

Except for letting Freeman walk.

 

Letting Freeman walk, and for so little, is about the biggest vibe they can give off.

 

And, regardless of how they feel about Irving and Moore, that doesn't take away from their solid track records.

[will426]

5 minutes ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

How good have our ILB's been at stopping the run?  Our DL and ILB needs to finally end this soft  "getting punched in the mouth" vs. the run stuff.  Ragland fits the bill immediately.  So if premier edge guys aren't there at 18 and Ragland is, I'm in.

Technically no1 really ran over us like the previous years  last year especially with Anderson in and majority of the time you have to blame the offense for not playing till the 4th in which the defense was definitely gassed 

[will426]

I'm gonna stick with my comments in other post instead of drafting someone to start how about we give guys chances to show thier worth and develop its a totally different cast of coaches now let our young Guys get some playing time  it won't be the end of the world of they mess up a game or two if it happens substitute someone else in..hard to know if you have depth if you only wanna play people in the damn preseason 

[ColtRider]

 

Very good to great defenses have two catalyst positions. ILB & OLB. And man, very tough to acquire & develop for long term play. The Colts need a prime time Mathis & Freeney again to go along with a crushing middle LB which will accomplish a very good to great defensive alignment for the future. Get that, and we're off to the races.

[OffensivelyPC]

17 minutes ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

How good have our ILB's been at stopping the run?  Our DL and ILB needs to finally end this soft  "getting punched in the mouth" vs. the run stuff.  Ragland fits the bill immediately.  So if premier edge guys aren't there at 18 and Ragland is, I'm in.

They also need to be able to cover tight ends, which Ragland is inept at.  Plus, he's not very good shedding blocks, he's just okay.  For a thumper-type, you'd expect him to be able to handle LBs better than he does.  When I see Ragland, I see a guy with overinflated production because of who he had in front of him.

[Mr. Irrelevant]

ILB has to be the most versatile players in the NFL (stop the run, help rush the QB, drop back and cover a TE), and the best should get top dollars as they are few and far between. The only silver lining is that our new DC knows exactly what he wants out of a LB group. Let us all hope the best. 

[buccolts]

46 minutes ago, ColtsLegacy said:

 

Letting Freeman walk, and for so little, is about the biggest vibe they can give off.

 

And, regardless of how they feel about Irving and Moore, that doesn't take away from their solid track records.

 

I couldn't pretend to know the perception of either around the league. I only know that I knew nothing of either until they were Colts.

 

So, you could be correct.

What are their legacies?

[Archer]

I feel pretty good about the group, in general, since I'm optimistic on Sylvestre and Herrera.  Bringing the following depth chart to camp would be alright.

 

D'Qwell, Irving, Sylvestre

Moore, Herrera, McNary

 

If anything, I'd want to bring in more of a coverage/complete ILB in the draft, rather than a run-stuffer like Ragland.  Seems like both D'Qwell or Irving can fill that role well now.  Honestly, I'd rather take Darron Lee in Round 1 and make him an ILB than Ragland. 

[ColtsLegacy]

28 minutes ago, buccolts said:

 

I couldn't pretend to know the perception of either around the league. I only know that I knew nothing of either until they were Colts.

 

So, you could be correct.

What are their legacies?

 

Irving was a very solid run stuffer for Broncos before his injury. Moore was an athlete who could play as an edge rusher or an inside backer. He was a very versatile, plus LB with the Raiders. Moore had a falling out with Del Rio when he took over as HC, which is why the Colts got him fairly cheap.

[throwing BBZ]

Herrara had real problems keeping his balance, changing directions.
I hope he has been working on those type of things.
 I would hope we would find a better all around athlete to spend our time and $$$ on.

 And that could be Sylvestre. lol

And i would think in the draft. We could do worse than Darron Lee.

[COLTS449]

Wait and see. If he's still on the board, there will be another Reggie in Indianapolis. Lets just hope he ends up a legend like the other 2.

[COLTS449]

We need an all around strong, physical, athletic, sideline to sideline ILB who can cover TE's and do it all. I think Sio Moore can do that on some level, but I'm referring to somebody like Myles Jack. But I seriously doubt he's there at 18. I may even do a little something-something outside the box and draft Deion Jones. He's very fast and athletic with coverage skills. If he could add 10lbs of muscle he would be fine in a 34 IMO. Or Dom Alexander, but I wouldn't take him until at least the 3rd. Maybe 4th. Scooby Wright is a guy who some wouldn't think is going to be anything special. Or quite frankly, any good at all. But people who know football can tell this kid has what it takes. He may not be the fastest or most athletic. But he is so competitive, and has that high octane non-stop motor and passion to go along with great instincts, and football IQ, The kid busts his __ every game. Effort play after effort play. Guys like him sometimes end up being one of the best at their position despite lacking the speed and athleticism. Zach Thomas anyone? Or Chris Borland. If Borland hadn't retired he would be a top of the line ILB right now.

[will426]

Moore can cover btw so idk why you all say you want a coverage lb

[ColtsBlueFL]

2 hours ago, OffensivelyPC said:

They also need to be able to cover tight ends, which Ragland is inept at.  Plus, he's not very good shedding blocks, he's just okay.  For a thumper-type, you'd expect him to be able to handle LBs better than he does.  When I see Ragland, I see a guy with overinflated production because of who he had in front of him.

 

To each their own.

 

I see that in 2015 Ragland was named a unanimous first-team All-American and the SEC Defensive Player of the Year while also being a finalist for the Bednarik Award (best defensive player in the country), the Nagurski Award (best defensive player), and the Butkus Award (best linebacker).

 

I see Pat Kirwan and his scouts love the guy, as well as our coaches and FO.

 

I've listed his attributes elsewhere. And he has great power and punch that jolts blockers and he sheds them better than I think you portray him.  He can also cover slants and square routes quite fine.  It's only deep seam routes is where he struggles to be adequate. But even then he has real closing burst, but is 'grabby'.  Great intelligence and Football I.Q. He'd be our defensive captain for a decade or more.  I'm ok with him at #18, if our brass goes that way.

 

[No 1 Manning Fan]

6 hours ago, bravo4460 said:

There's a very high chance the Colts are going to make a run at Ragland in the draft. They have been connected to him continuously (more than usual) through the offseason. 

Ragland is a beast! As a big Bama homer, I have watched every game this kid has played. He is always around the ball. He blows up running plays in the backfield as often as the D linemen.

 

I would love it!!!

[rock8591]

I'm a proponent of Reggie Ragland. He'll be our Vontaze Burfict, without the penalties.

 

Whenever he's on the field, our defense will play more aggressive. Our D has lacked an impact MLB for a long time.

[No 1 Manning Fan]

15 minutes ago, rock8591 said:

I'm a proponent of Reggie Ragland. He'll be our Vontaze Burfict, without the penalties.

 

Whenever he's on the field, our defense will play more aggressive. Our D has lacked an impact MLB for a long time.

I can't even remember an impact MLB. Have we ever had one since the Baltimore  Colts days?

[ColtRider]

4 minutes ago, rock8591 said:

I'm a proponent of Reggie Ragland. He'll be our Vontaze Burfict, without the penalties.

 

Whenever he's on the field, our defense will play more aggressive. Our D has lacked an impact MLB for a long time.

 

RR has the skills, talent, football intelligence and overall potential game-wrecker physique & mentality to become a great ILB in the NFL. If he's there at #18 as many projections say, then I'm taking him if BPA is satisfied.

[COLTS449]

48 minutes ago, No 1 Manning Fan said:

I can't even remember an impact MLB. Have we ever had one since the Baltimore  Colts days?

 

Oh yeah man. Gary Brackett. LOL. He used to get a whole bunch of tackles.

 

I'm kidding BTW. He did have a couple pretty good years though. 07 I think was his best.

[SaturdayAllDay]

7 hours ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

How good have our ILB's been at stopping the run?  Our DL and ILB needs to finally end this soft  "getting punched in the mouth" vs. the run stuff.  Ragland fits the bill immediately.  So if premier edge guys aren't there at 18 and Ragland is, I'm in.

To be fair that's the type of player D'Qwell is, and lots of people were calling for his release before he was found guilty. If he's still around we don't need two lbs who are useless vs the pass. 

[NewColtsFan]

9 hours ago, ColtsLegacy said:

Herrera won't make the team.  I have Sylvestre making it, he's a better athlete than any of our LBs, though, if an ILB or two are drafted he may settle on the PS for now.

 

 

Sorry....    no post.

 

[No 1 Manning Fan]

7 hours ago, COLTS449 said:

 

Oh yeah man. Gary Brackett. LOL. He used to get a whole bunch of tackles.

 

I'm kidding BTW. He did have a couple pretty good years though. 07 I think was his best.

I think he benefited from an all around good defense in '07 more so than helping it. 

[No 1 Manning Fan]

7 hours ago, SaturdayAllDay said:

To be fair that's the type of player D'Qwell is, and lots of people were calling for his release before he was found guilty. If he's still around we don't need two lbs who are useless vs the pass. 

It may be the Bama homer in me, but I did not see Ragland as a pass defensive liability. He is better run stopper, but he seemed to cover decently. 

[lollygagger8]

15 hours ago, OffensivelyPC said:

Our ILB situation isn't so dire as to necessitate taking Ragland.  In fact, we could have 0 ILBs heading into the draft and we still shouldn't take him at 18.

 

Agreed. Taking Ragland at #18 would be extremely disappointing. We already have a ILB who can't cover. We don't need another one. 

[ColtsBlueFL]

10 hours ago, SaturdayAllDay said:

To be fair that's the type of player D'Qwell is, and lots of people were calling for his release before he was found guilty. If he's still around we don't need two lbs who are useless vs the pass. 

 

Useless vs. the pass?  That's a bit much.  How old is D'Qwell again?  And Besides, he wasn't ever quite the player Ragland is, even when he was young.

 

Since ILB pass coverage is so important to you and others, then I would like it explained to me which type 3-4 defense do we run? What I call the Rex Ryan version where the ILB's are the Jack and the Mike, or the Parcells  version where the ILB's are the Mike and the Will?  What are their primary responsibilities in the scheme(s) and what is their pass cover responsibility?  What is the SAM or LOLB responsibilities for run and pass coverage??  And what about the ROLB or the Rush OLB?  Everyone knowing these, then the 'useless in pass coverage' statements can be graded on relative importance.

 

Let me just say I agree Ragland is probably not a dime defense cover type player.  And should not  be used as a Nickel corner to cover a slot guy. I get that. But in any other defense alignment his positive skill sets far out weighs any deficiency, IMO.  To me, I want pass coverage skill from the Sam (and even ROLB) more then the Jack or Mike.  IMO, Since the Strong Safety and Sam are near the TE most often, they need to be able to cover him.  ILB cover skills is further down my list than yours.  Besides, Ragland covers the slants and square routes just fine. I wnat to finally have a front 7 that truly shuts down the run.  We also find a CB@ and decent ROLB/Edge and we're golden IMO.

 

I think people are over blowing this pass cover thing on why an ILB must be such a good pass cover backer.  That's why you try to draft OLB's like Jaylon Smith and Myles Jack, Darren Lee at OLB positions!

 

If a premium Edge / ROLB is there along with Raglnad, I'm in for the Edge/ROLB.  If not, I'll take Ragland.  I think  

 

Quotes from Monachino:

 

“There are a lot of different ways you can look at pass coverage but the way I look at it—the best pass defense is a good pass rush.”

“You expect (the defense) to be sound and simple in a way that our guys can play full speed all the time. You expect it to be aggressive in everything that we do, yet smart in everything that we do in the backend,”

“We are never going to coach caution into a great player. We are always going to coach full speed.”

“All the coaches that came before me have done a great job building the foundation and we are just going to go one more step with it.”

[iLoveMyBoys]

I seriously doubt they go Ragland in round 1 I personally think its a smokescreen but if they do they must be trading back to do so. 

[SaturdayAllDay]

45 minutes ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

Useless vs. the pass?  That's a bit much.  How old is D'Qwell again?  And Besides, he wasn't ever quite the player Ragland is, even when he was young.

 

Since ILB pass coverage is so important to you and others, then I would like it explained to me which type 3-4 defense do we run? What I call the Rex Ryan version where the ILB's are the Jack and the Mike, or the Parcells  version where the ILB's are the Mike and the Will?  What are their primary responsibilities in the scheme(s) and what is their pass cover responsibility?  What is the SAM or LOLB responsibilities for run and pass coverage??  And what about the ROLB or the Rush OLB?  Everyone knowing these, then the 'useless in pass coverage' statements can be graded on relative importance.

 

Let me just say I agree Ragland is probably not a dime defense cover type player.  And should not  be used as a Nickel corner to cover a slot guy. I get that. But in any other defense alignment his positive skill sets far out weighs any deficiency, IMO.  To me, I want pass coverage skill from the Sam (and even ROLB) more then the Jack or Mike.  IMO, Since the Strong Safety and Sam are near the TE most often, they need to be able to cover him.  ILB cover skills is further down my list than yours.  Besides, Ragland covers the slants and square routes just fine. I wnat to finally have a front 7 that truly shuts down the run.  We also find a CB@ and decent ROLB/Edge and we're golden IMO.

 

I think people are over blowing this pass cover thing on why an ILB must be such a good pass cover backer.  That's why you try to draft OLB's like Jaylon Smith and Myles Jack, Darren Lee at OLB positions!

 

If a premium Edge / ROLB is there along with Raglnad, I'm in for the Edge/ROLB.  If not, I'll take Ragland.  I think  

 

Quotes from Monachino:

 

“There are a lot of different ways you can look at pass coverage but the way I look at it—the best pass defense is a good pass rush.”

“You expect (the defense) to be sound and simple in a way that our guys can play full speed all the time. You expect it to be aggressive in everything that we do, yet smart in everything that we do in the backend,”

“We are never going to coach caution into a great player. We are always going to coach full speed.”

“All the coaches that came before me have done a great job building the foundation and we are just going to go one more step with it.”

When we are in pass situations we already had to take D'Qwell off the field and sub in geathers as a Ilb, so obviously that was a problem. If we have another Ilb that has coverage issues then that is another player we have to sub out. With lowery gone we also don't have the depth to be doing things like as liberally as we have been.  

I can't say what defensive plan we are running for our lbs anymore as we have had a lot of coaching changes, but in any scheme at least one Ilb will be counted on to cover a TE or RB, and I have seen D'Qwell get beat time and time again. From what I have read/ watched on Ragland he was getting beat by TEs in college so I'm weary as to his ability to cover NFL caliber TEs.  I'm not saying that pass coverage is a premium on ilbs but you have to have someone to cover TEs and RBs,  and we are left at a major disadvantage if neither Ilb can. A few years ago we had an Ilb named Mario Harvey (I'm sure you remember him). Whenever he was in the game there were a few Teams that switched to hurry up just to exploit the fact that he can't cover. If Teams plan well enough to do that to a part time player, I'm worried about our starters both being two down run stuffers. 

[ColtRider]

 

Pass coverage as an isolated attribute to the former great & now playing LBs have usually not been the force of the position. It's run-stop, tackling for short yardage, shedding blockers, and getting to the ball quickly along with forced TOs that count. 

 

Sure, being able to cover is a very good point. However, disruption, no matter how that plays out every down is the name of the game. Corners & safeties are relied upon to exstrapolate the LB play against the pass. 

 

Decent pass coverage from LBs is about the best you can expect.