Colts re-sign Dwayne Allen, four years $29.4m [Merge]

[DougDew]

24 minutes ago, Gabriel Alexander Morillo said:

That would be the worst mindset in all of professional sports... Lay low, wait till Brady retires and then try and win a Superbowl. Lmao! 

How much would the Colts have had to spend to get Revis or Talib and Ware during the past few years.  Or to trade up to get a player like Von Miller who was taken in the top 5. 

 

Ya gotta pay if you wanna win it all.....And the Pats and Broncos were willing to pay a lot in the waning years of their QB's careers.

[Gabriel Alexander Morillo]

3 minutes ago, DougDew said:

How much would the Colts have had to spend to get Revis or Talib and Ware during the past few years.  Or to trade up to get a player like Von Miller who was taken in the top 5. 

 

Ya gotta pay if you wanna win it all.....And the Pats and Broncos were willing to pay a lot in the waning years of their QB's careers.

But That kind of negates your point because if we're not going out there and trying to get guys then we might as well just be handing the pats and broncos premier players/superbowls. If we had gotten revis, signed any top lineman or traded up for a premier pass rusher then we might very well be superbowl champions right now. 

[Freeupfreeney]

I don't care what anybody says. This signing was completely ridiculous. Fleener has 150 catches the last 3 years compared to this guys 75. And he hasn't done much but sit on the bench.

 

We did this same crap with Rob Morris. Remember how much money we gave that bum, and let Cato June Walk. We Let Peterson Walk, but we made sure that out FAT out of shape linebackers Gilbert and Morris were paid well. And we ignored the top 50 best Free Agents at all cost.

 

We are so friggin close to being a complete team on both sides of the ball and we will not take a shot, but keep trying....man I'm done. This is not me being irrational, but when you team keeps doing the same thing for 18 years, you can't help but ask does anybody want to win?

[DougDew]

12 minutes ago, Gabriel Alexander Morillo said:

But That kind of negates your point because if we're not going out there and trying to get guys then we might as well just be handing the pats and broncos premier players/superbowls. If we had gotten revis, signed any top lineman or traded up for a premier pass rusher then we might very well be superbowl champions right now. 

Only if we mortgaged the future by bidding higher for Revis or Talib and Ware, AND trading up to pick 3 or 4 from 26 in the year Miller was drafted.  I don't think Irsay is yet ready to win a SB that way.  Maybe he will be if Luck is 33 and has not yet won one.

[jvan1973]

18 minutes ago, Freeupfreeney said:

I don't care what anybody says. This signing was completely ridiculous. Fleener has 150 catches the last 3 years compared to this guys 75. And he hasn't done much but sit on the bench.

 

We did this same crap with Rob Morris. Remember how much money we gave that bum, and let Cato June Walk. We Let Peterson Walk, but we made sure that out FAT out of shape linebackers Gilbert and Morris were paid well. And we ignored the top 50 best Free Agents at all cost.

 

We are so friggin close to being a complete team on both sides of the ball and we will not take a shot, but keep trying....man I'm done. This is not me being irrational, but when you team keeps doing the same thing for 18 years, you can't help but ask does anybody want to win?

No,   this is you being irrational

[Freeupfreeney]

20 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

No,   this is you being irrational

Will see how irrational it is, when Fleener doesn't get a bigger contract than we gave Allen.

[jvan1973]

1 minute ago, Freeupfreeney said:

Will see how irrational it is, when Fleener doesn't get a bigger contract than we gave Allen.

He will.   

[ColtsLegacy]

7 minutes ago, Freeupfreeney said:

Will see how irrational it is, when Fleener doesn't get a bigger contract than we gave Allen.

 

All that would say is that the league values Fleener less than Allen, just as the Colts do. You know, because Allen is better.

 

I would not be surprised at all if he gets less than Allen.

[ColtsLegacy]

 

54 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Only if we mortgaged the future by bidding higher for Revis or Talib and Ware, AND trading up to pick 3 or 4 from 26 in the year Miller was drafted.  I don't think Irsay is yet ready to win a SB that way.  Maybe he will be if Luck is 33 and has not yet won one.

 

The Colts have been huge players in FA every year, made big trades, etc. They've been swinging for the SB since Luck has been here. Your theory is full of % and would be the mindset of a giant coward. Nobody with that mindset should be running a professional sports team, let alone be washing the players jock straps.

[Freeupfreeney]

5 minutes ago, ColtsLegacy said:

 

All that would say is that the league values Fleener less than Allen, just as the Colts do. You know, because Allen is better.

 

I would not be surprised at all if he gets less than Allen.

How exactly is Allen better when he didn't produce more, block better or stay on the field more the last 4 years. How? We had a 6'6 TE that ran a 4.4 fourty, and decent run and pass blocking skills,  and did almost nothing with him in regards to his physical ability. No, I don't like it. We better get a corner in this free agency to give our poor pass rush time to get pressure.

[ColtsLegacy]

17 minutes ago, Freeupfreeney said:

How exactly is Allen better when he didn't produce more, block better or stay on the field more the last 4 years. How? We had a 6'6 TE that ran a 4.4 fourty, and decent run and pass blocking skills,  and did almost nothing with him in regards to his physical ability. No, I don't like it. We better get a corner in this free agency to give our poor pass rush time to get pressure.

 

Allen is a far superior blocker to Fleener. Even the biggest Fleener homer wouldn't claim he blocks better than Allen.

 

As to Allen's "lack of production", he did what he was asked to do. Block. It's hard to catch a pass when you're always blocking. Allen is a better receiver than Fleener, he just needs to be utilized in the passing game and now he finally will be.

 

Fleener is 6'6" 250 lb 4.5* forty TE. He looks great in shorts. In reality he lacks quickness, is much slower than his timed speed, can't breack a tackle, doesn't create separation in his routes, struggles catching in traffic, is a below average blocker, plays much smaller than his height.

 

If it weren't for Allen's season long hip injury and Pep Hamilton, there would be no debate between Allen and Fleener. Thankfully, Grigson and Co. understand that better than Joe Fan.

[OffensivelyPC]

1 hour ago, Superman said:

 

I don't care about the "overpaid" folks. @Dustin is one of the smartest people here, and his earliest prediction for Allen was one year, $3m. No one accurately gauged Allen's market, and I think a big part of it is that there's just sooo much money about to be spent in free agency. I'm over the yearly average.

 

The bolded is my problem. I don't think paying $12m in one year to a nonperforming TE is a good use of resources. That money is gone, no matter what. Yeah, we could cut him with minimal dead money, but that doesn't really offset the money that's already spent. People judge contracts as "team friendly" because of minimal dead money, but you can't ignore the money that was already paid out. I just think a balanced, graduated deal would have been the ideal, especially for a guy who hasn't really earned this yearly average just yet. This structure is borrowing tomorrow's cap space for today, and then it's gone forever.

 

And then, he's a TE. I'm all about Dwayne Allen, but it's a non-premium position with a low replacement cost. Scott Chandler and Jack Doyle are decent multipurpose TEs, Jared Cook is non-qualifying FA (who will cost less than $12m in 2016, for sure), etc. If push had come to shove, both Allen and Fleener would have been replaceable. I'll repeat, I have no problem with paying good players, especially homegrown. I just don't like the balance of money and the big Year 1 cap hit for Allen. 

 

Last thing, and this is unlikely, but the Colts could restructure his Year 1 roster bonus if they wanted, at any point, which would reduce his cap hit to around $6m in 2016. Doesn't really change the balance of money, but it does change the big cap hit.

To the bolded, I get that is a problem.  But I don't think it's a fair criticism.  Whether it's a $4.85 million cap hit (In an alternate universe, assume the same deal, but the roster bonus is simply added to the signing bonus, which I assume would make this deal more appealing to you given your last paragraph) or a $9 million cap hit, if he's out, we're still ultimately not making good use of our resources.  We could sign Luck to a monster deal and he could go down for practically the entire season again, basically causing the season to be a lost year all on his own - which would never be the case if we lost Allen by the way.  In Luck's case, we'd have 15/20 million in a cap hit for a player we didn't even use and it would fall under the same criticism of your second paragraph.

 

To me, a guy with an injury history, if you're going to basically guarantee half the contract in 2 years , does it not at least make sense to load most of it up in Year 1 so that you have flexibility moving forward if you decide to move on?  That's what I think this contract addresses.  If we had lesser gurantee in year 1 and spread the difference out over years 2-4, we're living with this longer than necessary should it end up being a bad decision to re-sign Dwayne.  At least with the current deal, if it ends up being a bad decision, we've got an out with much lower cap hits in 2017 and 2018 if we cut him.  I dunno, I just think this deal makes more sense given the concerns with Allen.  Maybe the money is too high in general, but I think it just reflects the reality that the cap is increasing so much over the next few years as you've said.  We could argue all day over how much Dwayne should be paid, but I think at the end of the day this deal is is probably close to market value, without regard to structure.  With regard to structure, I think it makes sense given the injury concerns.

 

[DougDew]

47 minutes ago, ColtsLegacy said:

 

 

The Colts have been huge players in FA every year, made big trades, etc. They've been swinging for the SB since Luck has been here. Your theory is full of % and would be the mindset of a giant coward. Nobody with that mindset should be running a professional sports team, let alone be washing the players jock straps.

I said that the Colts have not mortgaged the future to win a SB, while the two most recent AFC champions have tended to do that.  Anything you said not related to mortgaging the future misses the point.

[ColtsLegacy]

13 minutes ago, DougDew said:

I said that the Colts have not mortgaged the future to win a SB, while the two most recent AFC champions have tended to do that.  Anything you said not related to mortgaging the future misses the point.

 

What about the part where you said the Colts plan could be to wait for the unbeatable Tom Brady to retire before really trying to build a talented roster? It's cowardly thinking, and erroneous, and I guarantee not in anyway how the Colts are approaching their team building.

 

As Jason said, Grigson would be out the door in a heartbeat if that were his game plan.

 

Also, this term "mortgage the future" is thrown around a lot improperly. The Pats signed some big names two years ago and the Broncos have as well on recent years, neither team mortgaged their future.

[DougDew]

5 minutes ago, ColtsLegacy said:

 

What about the part where you said the Colts plan could be to wait for the unbeatable Tom Brady to retire before really trying to build a talented roster? It's cowardly thinking, and erroneous, and I guarantee not in anyway how the Colts are approaching their team building.

 

As Jason said, Grigson would be out the door in a heartbeat if that were his game plan.

 

Also, this term "mortgage the future" is thrown around a lot improperly. The Pats signed some big names two years ago and the Broncos have as well on recent years, neither team mortgaged their future.

I think I said waiting for a decline, not just retire.  Brady and Gronk are slowing down.  NE was successful is landing Revis on a huge one-year deal...then he was gone. 

 

Manning retired and the Broncos will lose some FA.  Brady and Gronk are slowing down.  The time is near for the Colts to overpay for a shut down CB or disruptive pass rusher.  But I don't think you do that when you are still sorting out new OC and DC positions.

 

The idea of trying to win the SB every year is sports propaganda.  Every team has a window when it has a better shot some years than others.

[ricker182]

1 hour ago, ColtsLegacy said:

 

Allen is a far superior blocker to Fleener. Even the biggest Fleener homer wouldn't claim he blocks better than Allen.

 

As to Allen's "lack of production", he did what he was asked to do. Block. It's hard to catch a pass when you're always blocking. Allen is a better receiver than Fleener, he just needs to be utilized in the passing game and now he finally will be.

 

Fleener is 6'6" 250 lb 4.5* forty TE. He looks great in shorts. In reality he lacks quickness, is much slower than his timed speed, can't breack a tackle, doesn't create separation in his routes, struggles catching in traffic, is a below average blocker, plays much smaller than his height.

 

If it weren't for Allen's season long hip injury and Pep Hamilton, there would be no debate between Allen and Fleener. Thankfully, Grigson and Co. understand that better than Joe Fan.

You cannot pay a TE in today's NFL that kind of money to be a blocker.   

 

Fleener is the superior receiver.   

  

I still don't know how I feel about it though.   

Fleener is soft IMO. 

[jvan1973]

20 minutes ago, ricker182 said:

You cannot pay a TE in today's NFL that kind of money to be a blocker.   

 

Fleener is the superior receiver.   

  

I still don't know how I feel about it though.   

Fleener is soft IMO. 

He won't be used that way.   Anyone who knows anything about chud should know that

[ColtsLegacy]

53 minutes ago, ricker182 said:

You cannot pay a TE in today's NFL that kind of money to be a blocker.   

 

Fleener is the superior receiver.   

  

I still don't know how I feel about it though.   

Fleener is soft IMO. 

 

They're not paying him to be a blocker. That's the point.

 

Fleener is not the superior receiver. He just got to be the receiver while DA was stuck with the dirty work.

[jvan1973]

2 minutes ago, ColtsLegacy said:

 

They're not paying him to be a blocker. That's the point.

 

Fleener is not the superior receiver. He just got to be the receiver while DA was stuck with the dirty work.

Not sure why this is lost on so many

[krunk]

These Colts FAs are now on the open market: Anderson, Bradshaw, Davis, Fleener, Freeman, Herron, Louis, Lowery, Toler, Whitehurst, Winn.

[Jason_]

3 minutes ago, ColtsLegacy said:

 

They're not paying him to be a blocker. That's the point.

 

Fleener is not the superior receiver. He just got to be the receiver while DA was stuck with the dirty work.

 

Honestly I don't think it's really fair to try to say which is the superior receiver because they're different types of receivers.  Allen is better at some things...Fleener is better at some things.  I'll definitely concede that Allen is better than Fleener in more areas than Fleener is better than Allen.  

[DougDew]

4 minutes ago, ColtsLegacy said:

 

They're not paying him to be a blocker. That's the point.

 

Fleener is not the superior receiver. He just got to be the receiver while DA was stuck with the dirty work.

No, there was no charity or oppression involved.  Fleener was the better receiver and DA the better blocker.

 

but Fleener can't break a tackle to get a first down.  DA had some great catches, but more drops too

[ricker182]

Just now, jvan1973 said:

Not sure why this is lost on so many

It's a problem because it's a lot of money for someone that hasn't really shown much.  

 

It's a pretty big gamble to let Fleener walk and spend so much on Allen.  

 

You guys act like people opposed to the signing want him to fail just so we can say "told you so". 

  

It's okay to have a freaking opinion. 

  

The Colts organization isn't always right in who they pick and sign.

 

[ricker182]

6 minutes ago, DougDew said:

No, there was no charity or oppression involved.  Fleener was the better receiver and DA the better blocker.

 

but Fleener can't break a tackle to get a first down.  DA had some great catches, but more drops too

That was my biggest issue with Fleener and I'm sure the Colts saw that too. 

 He is a 100 pound man playing in a 260 pound body.

 

[ColtsLegacy]

10 minutes ago, DougDew said:

No, there was no charity or oppression involved.  Fleener was the better receiver and DA the better blocker.

 

but Fleener can't break a tackle to get a first down.  DA had some great catches, but more drops too

 

False, we had an inept OC and an inept offensive line that caused Allen to be kept into block. There really isn't an aspect of the receiving game that Fleener really does better than Allen. If there is please tell me what it is.

[dgambill]

On ‎3‎/‎8‎/‎2016 at 7:02 PM, Superman said:

 

First assumption is that the days of Allen not being used are done. Second assumption is Fleener is gone. 

Yeah I believe he gets a lot more run now. Hard to see Fleener coming back....a lot of TE needy teams. My biggest issue is Coby has always been a much better Redzone target for us and seemed to create more matchup issues for opposing lbs over Dwayne but clearly if we can't afford Coby we needed to keep Dwayne in house. There will be a few veteran TEs on the market worth looking at (Vontae's brother perhaps???) for a year or two.

 

Going into the draft I liked Dwayne more than Coby and wish we would have gotten Upshaw with that 2nd rd pick..now maybe we will swap him if that signing happens. There is no doubt Coby has outplayed Dwayne to this point so lets hope Dwayne loses a few pounds and works on his speed this offseason because he has to take on Coby's role of stretching the middle of the field now.

[DougDew]

5 minutes ago, ColtsLegacy said:

 

False, we had an inept OC and an inept offensive line that caused Allen to be kept into block. There really isn't an aspect of the receiving game that Fleener really does better than Allen. If there is please tell me what it is.

I'm looking at all four years. Allen dropped a lot of passes during his time here.  Fleener had the drops his rookie year but not many thereafter.  Fleener went down on contact, which matters a lot too.

[ColtsLegacy]

12 minutes ago, Jason_S said:

 

Honestly I don't think it's really fair to try to say which is the superior receiver because they're different types of receivers.  Allen is better at some things...Fleener is better at some things.  I'll definitely concede that Allen is better than Fleener in more areas than Fleener is better than Allen.  

 

Honeslty, though, what does Fleener do as a receiver that Allen can't do at least as well or, in most cases, much better? Fleener is 6'6" 250 but plays small, runs well in shorts but it doesn't translate often to the field, not quick, doesn't separate, doesn't get YAC, struggles making receptions in traffic, etc. And the times Fleener does look really good are way too inconsistent.

 

I know I'm harping on Allen's rookie year which was long ago now (that was the last time he was utilized well as a receiver), but he showed me way more as a receiver that year than Fleener ever has.

[ColtsLegacy]

23 minutes ago, DougDew said:

I'm looking at all four years. Allen dropped a lot of passes during his time here.  Fleener had the drops his rookie year but not many thereafter.  Fleener went down on contact, which matters a lot too.

 

Hands? That's definitely not going in Fleener's favor. Fleener has lessened his statistical drops but still has troubles making "extra effort" receptions. As for Allen's "drops", he had an anomalous game vs Dallas in 2014 and had 0-2 in 2015 depending where you look. But DAs hands are more reliable in traffic or making a tough catch.

 

Anything else?

[Freeupfreeney]

I'm tried of people saying that Fleener cant block. I watched all his tapes coming out of the draft, and not only did he Block better than Dwayne, he block better than some Undrafted guards when at UCLA.

 

And he did a darn good Job in the NFL blocking. (Ask youself, how many time did you say "Dammit Fleener whiffed on that block""

 

People just assume because he is fast that his blocking techniques are trash, he was an excellent blocker.

 

The only thing about Coby is he didn't play competitively, he complained a lot about getting the ball and he went down too easy. He rarely ever one jump balls which was weird because he's so tall. But I don't know who you all saw Dwayne blocking, except the Water boy. If you guys want to keep shelling out cash to injury prone tweeners, go ahead and support it, I'm not tolerating it anymore.

 

[ColtsLegacy]

4 minutes ago, Freeupfreeney said:

I'm tried of people saying that Fleener cant block. I watched all his tapes coming out of the draft, and not only did he Block better than Dwayne, he block better than some Undrafted guards when at UCLA.

 

And he did a darn good Job in the NFL blocking. (Ask youself, how many time did you say "Dammit Fleener whiffed on that block""

 

People just assume because he is fast that his blocking techniques are trash, he was an excellent blocker.

 

The only thing about Coby is he didn't play competitively, he complained a lot about getting the ball and he went down too easy. He rarely ever one jump balls which was weird because he's so tall. But I don't know who you all saw Dwayne blocking, except the Water boy. If you guys want to keep shelling out cash to injury prone tweeners, go ahead and support it, I'm not tolerating it anymore.

 

 

So long. We will miss you.

[Freeupfreeney]

20 minutes ago, ColtsLegacy said:

 

So long. We will miss you.

Oh I didn't say I'm leaving, I said I'm not tolerating it lol.

[tvturner]

Fleener is a Saint...thanks Grigs

[DougDew]

53 minutes ago, ColtsLegacy said:

 

Hands? That's definitely not going in Fleener's favor. Fleener has lessened he's statistical drops but still has troubles making tough receptions. As for Allen's "drops", he had an anomalous game vs Dallas in 2014 and had 0-2 in 2015 depending where you look. But DAs hands are more reliable in traffic or making a tough catch.

 

Anything else?

The games you mentioned are about 10% of Allen's games he's actually played in.....

 

Fleener has dropped easy catches far less than Allen has.  Neither TE gets great separation on short routes, which is why I wanted neither of them to return.  But Fleener gets open on the intermediate routes quite well. 

 

I agree that DA is tougher in traffic, not necessarily a better catcher as Fleener has made some tough catches too.  I suspect that the new OC will Allen as more of a traditional TE.

 

Fleener is one of those en-vogue TEs that are supposed to be a third WR at times.  It worked well when Manning used Clark that way and ran things from the LOS, but I would prefer TY, Moncrief, and Dorsett as my three receivers, so letting Fleener walk is no problem for me.  I'd just as soon let DA walk too and get a cheaper more traditional TE and draft another in round 4 or 5.

 

[ColtsLegacy]

9 minutes ago, DougDew said:

The games you mentioned are about 10% of Allen's games he's actually played in.....

 

Fleener has dropped easy catches far less than Allen has.  Neither TE gets great separation on short routes, which is why I wanted neither of them to return.  But Fleener gets open on the intermediate routes quite well. 

 

I agree that DA is tougher in traffic, not necessarily a better catcher as Fleener has made some tough catches too.  I suspect that the new OC will Allen as more of a traditional TE.

 

Fleener is one of those en-vogue TEs that are supposed to be a third WR at times.  It worked well when Manning used Clark that way and ran things from the LOS, but I would prefer TY, Moncrief, and Dorsett as my three receivers, so letting Fleener walk is no problem for me.  I'd just as soon let DA walk too and get a cheaper more traditional TE and draft another in round 4 or 5.

 

 

Bold: not true.

 

Allen runs better routes and is quicker than Fleener (that's right), so he creates more separation, but even when he doesn't he is more likely to make a catch in traffic and much better running after the catch.

 

Fleener is supposed to be the 3rd WR field stretcher/intermediate route TE you've described but he hasn't been all that successful at it. I believe Dwayne Allen could play his role better than he can.

[DougDew]

3 minutes ago, ColtsLegacy said:

 

Bold: not true.

 

Allen runs better routes and is quicker than Fleener (that's right), so he creates more separation, but even when he doesn't he is more likely to make a catch in traffic and much better running after the catch.

 

Fleener is supposed to be the 3rd WR field stretcher/intermediate route TE you've described but he hasn't been all that successful at it. I believe Dwayne Allen could play his role better than he can.

I believe Jack Doyle can play Allen's role better than he can.

[ColtsLegacy]

6 minutes ago, DougDew said:

I believe Jack Doyle can play Allen's role better than he can.

 

Allen's role wasn't Allen's role, at least it shouldn't have been. What he did his rookie year was what his role should be and that should be near to what it is next year. And there's no way in hell Doyle can play it better.

 

I know you were just being condescending but, there you have it.

[DougDew]

2 minutes ago, ColtsLegacy said:

 

Allen's role wasn't Allen's role, at least it shouldn't have been. What he did his rookie year was what his role should be and that should be near to what it is next year. And there's no way in hell Doyle can play it better.

Doyle has never played Allen's role that Allen played his rookie year.  But if given the chance, I think he could play it just as well as Allen would for about $6 million dollars, meaning one good starting guard, less.

[JColts72]

I expect Cody to have better numbers at season's end as Sean knows how to use TE in their passing game.

[ColtsLegacy]

12 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Doyle has never played Allen's role that Allen played his rookie year.  But if given the chance, I think he could play it just as well as Allen would for about $6 million dollars, meaning one good starting guard, less.

 

, no chance. Allen was a top 10 TE his rookie year. Top 5 IMO. Doyle is a solid blocker but very limited athletically and as a receiver.

 

Your opinion of Allen is incredibly misinformed. Doyle, too.