Pagano agrees to a contract extension, Grigson retained [Mega-merge]

[akitacolt]

LJpalmbeacher, you say Shula was a big time coach, yes he was, for the Dolphins.  The one Super Bowl he had with us he lost.  Don McCafferty  and Tony Dungy, maybe not big time coaches, but they each delivered Super Bowl victories.  If you have been this troubled since the Shula era, you have suffered enough, feel free to support another team.

[Cynjin]

15 minutes ago, ColtsSouljah said:

I'm a Colts fan. I was not sad yesterday.

 

I wasn't sad either.

[jtrester]

Climb off the cross!! You can't mortgage the future to get a supposedly better coach.  We know what we have...a few fixes here and there and we are fine.

[Jonathan]

OK Colts I am buying in. Now show us you learned something by addressing the offensive line this year.

[Superman]

6 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

That is the reason I mentioned Polian drafted players for his coaches' system and his first four years of drafting were for Jim Mora, who Irsay wanted to let go once Dungy was available. Thus, players drafted for Jim Mora's system became less of a fit with Dungy's system thus making it hard to see the impact they had post 2001 since Polian did not have the luxury of those players sticking around in the same system. So, we cannot truly compare those players drafted during Mora's tenure. Hence the true impact of Polian had to be gauged with players brought in after 2001 who stuck around longer but then, it makes it an apples to oranges comparison.

 

If they go based on W-L records, then hands down, yes, we are moving at a better pace in the Grigson era but then, our team was a QB away from playoff contention when Peyton went down in 2011, and pieces like McAfee, Vinatieri, Mathis, Bethea, Castanzo and Reitz were still around from the previous regime and are still around except for Bethea. Thus, one could make an argument that Grigson was walking into a winning culture more so than Polian did and Luck was just as good as Peyton to hold the weight and carry the team to the playoffs.

 

If Irsay was going to bring Polian into the picture to compare with Grigson, he should have just painted the W-L record front and center as being better, nothing more, nothing less. The shock factor, more than the factual accuracy, overwhelmed the message without the message being explained, IMO. It would have been easier if Irsay just said, "hey, we are more ahead 4 years since Grigson took over than any other Colts GM" and left it at that, IMO.

 

To the bolded, I think people would draw the exact same conclusions even if Irsay had said it that way. JMO.

 

As for Polian having to transition his roster building when Dungy was hired, I'm pretty sure it wasn't that dramatic. It was more difficult for Grigson to rework the roster from 2012 on, going to a 3-4, navigating around dead money, and not having a QB moving into his prime (from 2003 on, Manning has been a legit MVP candidate every single year).

 

The expectations were probably higher. Things were more contentious, I think, with Manning still being around for a couple months. 

 

I don't think Grigson had it any easier than Polian did. I'm also not saying he's a better GM than Polian was. But I don't have any problem with comparing their records through four years and acknowledging that Grigson's off to a hotter start. And I don't see why it's something that should only be whispered in privacy. 

[dgambill]

When I heard the delay I can't say I was surprised by this decision. I would like to see some changes to the staff underneath Chuck. I think we have a lot of room to grow with this team and in game adjustments and gameplanning I think leave a lot to be desired. Play calling got a little better under Chud but overall I'd like to see some new blood come in and freshen up some things and some help with a qb coach for Luck.

 

I'm not putting a ton into the 4 yr contract. Chuck had the leverage once he was a free agent. I'm sure he had teams interested in him and it would take at least a comparable deal to bring him back. So even though he and Grigson got 4 years I'm sure Irsay won't hesitate to move on if he doesn't see this team headed in the right direction next year or after.

 

Addressing the drama in house. I'm very suspicious of the stories. I'm sure there has been a lot of tension with the losing this year...and perhaps with some choices on personnel or coaches but clearly Grigson and Chuck can work together well enough or they wouldn't both be retained. Goes to show a lot of these writers make up a lot of stories. Seems anyone can be a "source" nowdays....whether you even work at the facility in question or not. Just make up what the writer wants to hear and get your pay under the table.

[rockywoj]

Irsay comparing the current regime's 4 year performance to the first 4 years in the Manning era = much a do about nothing!

 

Man, it's just painful to see how some people cannot rest if not trying to dredge up controversy where there is none.  His comparison was accurate.

[lincolndefan]

19 hours ago, NewEra said:

Weird both would be staying considering the rumors 

That's just what it was!!!! Rumors!!!!!!!  LOL!!!!!!

[bababooey]

26 minutes ago, Superman said:

I don't think Grigson had it any easier than Polian did. I'm also not saying he's a better GM than Polian was. But I don't have any problem with comparing their records through four years and acknowledging that Grigson's off to a hotter start. And I don't see why it's something that should only be whispered in privacy. 

Because of Grigson's unlikeable personality, the rumors about his control and relationship with Chuck, and his whistleblowing during deflategate, there is a double standard of everyone being allowed to compare Luck's personal stats and team wins to Peyton and it's a compliment to Luck, but doing it with Grigson is an insult to Polian.

[dgambill]

1 hour ago, Superman said:

 

To the bolded, I think people would draw the exact same conclusions even if Irsay had said it that way. JMO.

 

As for Polian having to transition his roster building when Dungy was hired, I'm pretty sure it wasn't that dramatic. It was more difficult for Grigson to rework the roster from 2012 on, going to a 3-4, navigating around dead money, and not having a QB moving into his prime (from 2003 on, Manning has been a legit MVP candidate every single year).

 

The expectations were probably higher. Things were more contentious, I think, with Manning still being around for a couple months. 

 

I don't think Grigson had it any easier than Polian did. I'm also not saying he's a better GM than Polian was. But I don't have any problem with comparing their records through four years and acknowledging that Grigson's off to a hotter start. And I don't see why it's something that should only be whispered in privacy. 

I agree too....but lets not pretend Irsay hasn't taken shots before at the last regime and players on their way out...(star wars reference and 1 championship etc). I don't think its necessary and I think he could word things differently but then what DOES Irsay word well lol. Communication imo isn't his strong suit. For some reason he wants to distance himself from the old regime in a way and usher in this new one but I don't see why he needs to do so. I think more than anything he was just trying to justify his decision when everything pointed towards people walking and someone being held accountable for this past year.

 

With the Grigson vs Polian debate its kinda hard to compare with all the changes in rookie contracts etc I think that makes it much much easier to build around a rookie qb of Luck's status. That said its impossible to not look at the w/l records and not see that we have had more success these past few years. I was fine bringing Grigson back. I think he has made more good decisions then bad and the way he structured contracts etc has left us in a good situation moving forward...something he has done much better than say Polian did. Nothing wrong with comparing the positives and negatives but we definitely hit a stumbling block this year...how we move forward as an organization will be very telling if we have the right personnel going forward. Grigsons job moving forward will get much more difficult now that he is locking up Luck and a couple other second contracts but honestly we haven't had too many players deserving of big contracts so take that as you will. Chuck is going to face a lot more scrutiny too. He definitely has the players playing hard for him. They have bought in....but its going to be about results now. He needs to move this thing forward again and show he can make the necessary adjustments and decisions to put us at the top. I'm kinda surprised this is where we are at. We didn't look good even when Luck was playing this year...I thought we would make a change but glad Chuck gets another chance. That said I think he will be on a short leash...another start like this past year and he won't make it through another year.

[Jay Kirk]

9 hours ago, BrentMc11 said:

I was a fan for awhile.  Chris was pompous..(kind of like grigson)

 

Grigson:  I gave Satele a ton of money to be our center.

Pagano:  UHHHH...Ok...I will sit AQ.

Grigson. You sure as **** better.

 

Pagano:  Mcglynn gets taken into the QB 3 out of every 4 times.  I like Reitz.

Grigson:  McGlynn is a true leader!!!

Pagano:  So What are you saying boss?

Grigson:  McGlynn is mean and awesome without pads.  His job.  Reitz came from the previous regime...sit him.

I don't know about you Brother but I hope Irsay told Grigs to stay out of the on field operation.

[Superman]

5 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

I think that's your strongest argument.    Really solid.

 

I just don't like dragging Polian's name into it.    As I noted earlier,  there was a way to justify Grigson without having to bring in Polian.    Especially given the less than amicable way things have gone the last number of years with Bill.     It sure feels like Irsay holds a grudge, and I don't think he should.    Not that he should be happy with winning only 1 SB,  but there's only so much a person can do.    The Colts could've won the 2nd SB.    They didn't.     I'm not sure the fault lies with Polian.

 

 

Polian handled it well, said he is not offended by what Irsay said. Good on him for being mature about it. 

[Jay Kirk]

9 hours ago, lollygagger8 said:

 

Don't forget Grig's love affair with former Eagles Winston Justice and Herremans, and how awesome they were. 

 Wheres the Justice in that ? Lol

[Superman]

2 hours ago, dgambill said:

I agree too....but lets not pretend Irsay hasn't taken shots before at the last regime and players on their way out...(star wars reference and 1 championship etc). I don't think its necessary and I think he could word things differently but then what DOES Irsay word well lol. Communication imo isn't his strong suit. For some reason he wants to distance himself from the old regime in a way and usher in this new one but I don't see why he needs to do so. I think more than anything he was just trying to justify his decision when everything pointed towards people walking and someone being held accountable for this past year.

 

Maybe I'm not good at reading between the lines. I mean, I get where there's room to infer that Irsay was taking a shot at Polian's regime with the 'we want more rings' stuff, but I honestly didn't read it that way at the time, and still don't.

 

To me, Irsay was saying that he wants to maximize the potential of his all star QB, and he's not going to be complacent or reserved in his pursuit of championships. He recognized that previous teams were deficient on defense and bad on special teams, and he wants those things to be priorities from now on. He's one of the most "football smart" owners in the league; I think he co-signed Polian's approach, he hired the ultra-conservative Dungy and approved the hand-off to Caldwell. The results from the previous regime are a reflection of his own decision making.

 

I'm personally not interested in him mincing words. What he wants and how he feels is top priority; he's the owner. I don't want to hear TY Hilton complaining about lack of deep balls, because the coaches don't answer to Hilton. Everyone answers to Irsay, so he can say what he wants, and whoever he's talking to ought to listen if they want to remain with the team. Maybe he could make his points more artfully, but I'd rather not listen to him try to water anything down. If he expects multiple championships by virtue of better defense and special teams, his staff better be listening.

 

And if Bill Polian catches feelings over it, oh well. That's too bad, but he has a gold jacket that he can put on, brush the dirt off his shoulders, and keep moving.

 

JMO

[lollygagger8]

20 hours ago, Detectacon said:

The meme aside, I think the picture (and Grigsons expression) says it all. Makes me feel like he was brought down to size a bit. 

 

Hahhahahah that's awesome!! 

[dgambill]

On ‎1‎/‎5‎/‎2016 at 11:34 AM, Detectacon said:

The meme aside, I think the picture (and Grigsons expression) says it all. Makes me feel like he was brought down to size a bit. 

 

Don't take this personally but I don't buy into this whole Grigson/Pagano thing being as bad as "SOURCES" were making it out. I'm sure they are two passionate guys who will butt heads from time to time (much like most people with their bosses/coworkers) but I have a hard time believing this thing soured to the extent that the local media tried to portray it. I mean is this the SAME unnamed source that that Al Jazera claims said Peyton was taking HGH or is this Charles Sly saying there was this horrible rift in the organization. I mean he seems to have no problem talking about Colt personel whether he works there or knows anybody or not....maybe he wanted more attention. I think a whole lot of people have bought into some terrible reporting and while I'm certain there has been many frustrations inside the Colts organization this year it certainly wasn't as toxic as the reporters wanted us all to believe....but that's alright...they are on to a new story today and already got their clicks....and NONE of them are held responsible for their crappy writing. 

[bababooey]

21 hours ago, Superman said:

 

Polian handled it well, said he is not offended by what Irsay said. Good on him for being mature about it. 

Glad to hear that. It was no slight at all so glad to see the adults realize that.

[Detectacon]

1 hour ago, dgambill said:

 

Don't take this personally but I don't buy into this whole Grigson/Pagano thing being as bad as "SOURCES" were making it out. I'm sure they are two passionate guys who will butt heads from time to time (much like most people with their bosses/coworkers) but I have a hard time believing this thing soured to the extent that the local media tried to portray it. I mean is this the SAME unnamed source that that Al Jazera claims said Peyton was taking HGH or is this Charles Sly saying there was this horrible rift in the organization. I mean he seems to have no problem talking about Colt personel whether he works there or knows anybody or not....maybe he wanted more attention. I think a whole lot of people have bought into some terrible reporting and while I'm certain there has been many frustrations inside the Colts organization this year it certainly wasn't as toxic as the reporters wanted us all to believe....but that's alright...they are on to a new story today and already got their clicks....and NONE of them are held responsible for their crappy writing. 

I will agree with you that more vetting should probably have been done before they ran their stories. But it was not only local media that was making the claims. We also don't know that they were not true. It is very possible that things were as toxic as reported and they were simply able to hash things out making the decision to downplay the issues that were reported to save face and stop the talk.

[dgambill]

23 minutes ago, Detectacon said:

I will agree with you that more vetting should probably have been done before they ran their stories. But it was not only local media that was making the claims. We also don't know that they were not true. It is very possible that things were as toxic as reported and they were simply able to hash things out making the decision to downplay the issues that were reported to save face and stop the talk.

I agree to an extent...we don't know..and I'm sure the big market guys just use the local guys as their source lol so I just don't listen too much. Actions speak louder than words....yes we thought it was necessary to make changes to some coaches OC/DC but clearly the talk that Grigson and Pagano couldn't agree or work together was very false. You don't just re-sign a guy to "save face"...decisions as important or as big as these aren't taken lightly....a lot of thought and planning goes in. I'm sure Irsay would have moved on from Grigson/Pagano if he could land the mythical unicorn (Payton.Harbaugh.Saban,Cowher) but once he checked it out and found that wasn't happening he was more than happy to work with what we have. You don't just give a guy a 4 yr deal unless you are committed to that vision. Irsay doesn't care about "stopping talk"...he wants wins and he thinks bringing back our leaders will result in that. I agree there are likely some differences but at the end of the day the reports had to be wildly overhyped or we wouldn't have ended up where we did. Just like a fisherman....these stories tend to take a life of their own to serve the purpose of promoting the individual telling them.

[New Zealands #1 Colts Fan]

I go on holiday for 3 days without internet and come back to this news/ thread.............should make for some nice light reading

[NewColtsFan]

On January 5, 2016 at 7:22 PM, Defjamz26 said:

Andrew Luck will never win a Super Bowl here. I'll put money on it. He'll be the next fall guy for Irsay and his "best buddies" when things don't work.

 

Just....   Chill.

 

Seriously,  take a deep breath and try not to overreact.

 

 

[Jason_]

2 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Just....   Chill.

 

Seriously,  take a deep breath and try not to overreact.

 

 

 

Oh that ship done sailed.  In a bitter twist of irony, it sank not 5 minutes after casting off.

[JPFolks]

On 1/5/2016 at 2:44 PM, Superman said:

 

I think I'm pretty much caught up. I wanted to respond to this, because I think this hits at the heart of the matter.

 

To the bolded, I don't think it matters what NFL observers are going to say about this. Irsay locked up his staff long term, silencing any speculation about whether he thinks these two guys can work together. That's really the only thing that needed to be addressed by the owner, and he addressed it definitively. Maybe he did the right thing, maybe not, time will tell; but as of right now, there's nothing that anyone can say that's relevant to these current Colts about the working relationship between Grigson and Pagano. Irsay believes in his guys, and that's all that matters.

 

Polian doesn't matter at this point. All that he did for the organization doesn't change. Even if you feel like Irsay's comments were dismissive or disrespectful of Polian's HOF tenure, it doesn't really affect what the Colts are doing moving forward. Maybe I'm being incredibly naive, but I don't think we're going to be haunted by the comparison to Bill Polian. I think it's immaterial. 

 

As I said in the other post, I don't think Irsay's comments should be taken as a referendum on Bill Polian. They are his justification for keeping Ryan Grigson. Right, wrong, or indifferent. He gave us some insight into his thought process: If Polian was a HOFer and we hadn't won a playoff game in his first four years, why am I in a hurry to get rid of a team that has won three playoff games in four years? I'm actually glad he said it, because I can see what he's thinking and how he's measuring these guys.

 

I'm sure Polian will be salty about it. But again, I don't think that matters to the Colts right now.

I couldn't find among all the comment pages the one you quoted Superman, but I agree and will add to New Colts Fan (I think that was the guy who asked "what if Grigson doesn't live up to Polian's numbers") that I suspect since Luck got off to such a fast start and after going 8-8 with such a disastrous year having to go 6-3 with ever more obscure back up QB's to finish at .500, that it is more likely than not that Grigson/Pagano will see the greatest combined record in Colts history over their tenure as long as Luck stays reasonably healthy going forward.  Polian got a luxury only 1 other org. has gotten (Green Bay) and that is having an elite QB staying healthy during all those consecutive  and the one time he gets hurt, you finish as the worst team in the league with the other parts you had assembled.  I'd say winning 6 of 9 games with your starter is beyond amazing especially that final game which was simply stunning how well they pulled it off even against the worst team in the league.  

[JPFolks]

6 hours ago, dgambill said:

I agree to an extent...we don't know..and I'm sure the big market guys just use the local guys as their source lol so I just don't listen too much. Actions speak louder than words....yes we thought it was necessary to make changes to some coaches OC/DC but clearly the talk that Grigson and Pagano couldn't agree or work together was very false. You don't just re-sign a guy to "save face"...decisions as important or as big as these aren't taken lightly....a lot of thought and planning goes in. I'm sure Irsay would have moved on from Grigson/Pagano if he could land the mythical unicorn (Payton.Harbaugh.Saban,Cowher) but once he checked it out and found that wasn't happening he was more than happy to work with what we have. You don't just give a guy a 4 yr deal unless you are committed to that vision. Irsay doesn't care about "stopping talk"...he wants wins and he thinks bringing back our leaders will result in that. I agree there are likely some differences but at the end of the day the reports had to be wildly overhyped or we wouldn't have ended up where we did. Just like a fisherman....these stories tend to take a life of their own to serve the purpose of promoting the individual telling them.

The reports claiming that they couldn't reach a deal for Payton (and who knows who else) is no small thing.  I asked the question early on: Who is a better option than Pagano and IS AVAILABLE to the Colts and the answer appears to be no one thus Chuck stays.  Every report made prior to them resigning Pagano could easily be 100% true.  But if there still isn't a better option, you keep the best option you have.  Sort of like they should have done with Shipley.  He was the best option at Center we had at the time, but someone ordered a lesser player start instead.  Who that was we may never know, but reports that it was Grigson could certain still be true.  

[GoColts8818]

2 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Just....   Chill.

 

Seriously,  take a deep breath and try not to overreact.

 

 

Internet forums are in deep trouble if people stop overreacting to things.  

[NewColtsFan]

7 minutes ago, GoColts8818 said:

Internet forums are in deep trouble if people stop overreacting to things.  

 

Good point....     Not sure what I was thinking?!    

 

Doh!!

 

[Shane Bond]

On January 5, 2016 at 8:11 AM, Coltsman1788 said:

Per Colts app

 

 

wow...hopefully this means Griggson gets booted instead.

I can't wait for that glorious day.

[Shane Bond]

8 hours ago, New Zealands #1 Colts Fan said:

I go on holiday for 3 days without internet and come back to this news/ thread.............should make for some nice light reading

3 days without Internet ?

 

Back to back Rugby world titles, you can do anything

 

[dgambill]

On January 7, 2016 at 0:16 AM, JPFolks said:

The reports claiming that they couldn't reach a deal for Payton (and who knows who else) is no small thing.  I asked the question early on: Who is a better option than Pagano and IS AVAILABLE to the Colts and the answer appears to be no one thus Chuck stays.  Every report made prior to them resigning Pagano could easily be 100% true.  But if there still isn't a better option, you keep the best option you have.  Sort of like they should have done with Shipley.  He was the best option at Center we had at the time, but someone ordered a lesser player start instead.  Who that was we may never know, but reports that it was Grigson could certain still be true.  

Disfunction and differences on the level that was reported you can't just sweep under the rug and move forward like nothing ever happened and expect a healthy outcome. I'm just saying it was likely way overblown and misreported. They clearly have a good working condition and can get along. You don't bring back both guys on 4 yr deals with the disfunction as described in reports if that is true. I agree we sent fillers out there to see if an upgrade was available and then John that superstar girl wasn't interested we said we have a good coach in house that the players react well to..lets change up some of the assistants and get some fresh perspective ideas in here but let's not break up a successful marriage.

[YourNextGM]

Fire Pagano 

[JPFolks]

6 hours ago, dgambill said:

Disfunction and differences on the level that was reported you can't just sweep under the rug and move forward like nothing ever happened and expect a healthy outcome. I'm just saying it was likely way overblown and misreported. They clearly have a good working condition and can get along. You don't bring back both guys on 4 yr deals with the disfunction as described in reports if that is true. I agree we sent fillers out there to see if an upgrade was available and then John that superstar girl wasn't interested we said we have a good coach in house that the players react well to..lets change up some of the assistants and get some fresh perspective ideas in here but let's not break up a successful marriage.

In the end, at least we aren't the Bengals. 

[coltsva]

9 hours ago, JPFolks said:

In the end, at least we aren't the Bengals. 

Amen to that!

 

Moving forward I think we have a good plan. Keep the head coach that does have control of the players, motivates and keeps the locker room unified. Then get strong coordinators for the X's and O's of coaching up players, game planning, and scheming. I believe we have that in Chud and only time will tell if we have that with Ted M.

 

[DougDew]

Oh....we're still talking about this?

 

[dgambill]

12 hours ago, JPFolks said:

In the end, at least we aren't the Bengals. 

Yeah they have some real knuckleheads...but they have one of the most complete rosters in the NFL. I also think they could flip AJ for a nice pick if someone is interested....he performed and acted like a real leader the past few weeks and I was very impressed with his post-game press conference after the game. Very impressed.

[Jason_]

19 hours ago, YourNextGM said:

Fire Pagano 

 

I expect him to be fired on Monday