Pagano agrees to a contract extension, Grigson retained [Mega-merge]

[bababooey]

Just now, Superman said:

 

I don't get it. The Colts from 2012-15 have accomplished more than the Colts from 1998-2001. It's not debatable. 

 

The 2001 Colts lost Edgerrin James and then went 6-10. Irsay fired Mora and hired Dungy. He did NOT fire Polian, or even consider it.

 

The 2015 Colts lost Andrew Luck, and went 8-8. Irsay considered his staff, and decided to stay put. All things being equal -- and of course, they're not -- the accomplishments of the guys in place now justify his decision.

 

Irsay did NOT say Grigson is a better GM than Polian. To me, it's not even a controversial statement. 

He said look at their first 4 years, Ryan outdid him. It's a fact. Not talking about picks made or FA's signed or what the future looks like. Record and playoff wins. Not a debate or a story at all but leave it to the media to try to make something out of nothing considering Pagano and Grigson said they wouldn't speak to the media until the combine.

[Superman]

1 hour ago, jskinnz said:

3) Revoking media badges - brilliant idea there.

 

 Some of those guys have no business being in the room, ever. Doyle is a prime example.

[NewColtsFan]

Just now, Superman said:

 

I don't get it. The Colts from 2012-15 have accomplished more than the Colts from 1998-2001. It's not debatable. 

 

The 2001 Colts lost Edgerrin James and then went 6-10. Irsay fired Mora and hired Dungy. He did NOT fire Polian, or even consider it.

 

The 2015 Colts lost Andrew Luck, and went 8-8. Irsay considered his staff, and decided to stay put. All things being equal -- and of course, they're not -- the accomplishments of the guys in place now justify his decision.

 

Irsay did NOT say Grigson is a better GM than Polian. To me, it's not even a controversial statement. 

 

You're at my first post.    I probably have about a dozen other posts in this thread.  

 

Take a look at them and then we can talk later.  

 

The accuracy of Irsay's statement is NOT the question.     The wisdom of saying it is my issue.

 

It wasn't necessary and makes Irsay, and the Colts look bad (petty) by doing so......

 

Read the thread.....   lots of people questioned me about it....

 

[luv_pony_express]

1 minute ago, Superman said:

 

I don't get it. The Colts from 2012-15 have accomplished more than the Colts from 1998-2001. It's not debatable. 

 

The 2001 Colts lost Edgerrin James and then went 6-10. Irsay fired Mora and hired Dungy. He did NOT fire Polian, or even consider it.

 

The 2015 Colts lost Andrew Luck, and went 8-8. Irsay considered his staff, and decided to stay put. All things being equal -- and of course, they're not -- the accomplishments of the guys in place now justify his decision.

 

Irsay did NOT say Grigson is a better GM than Polian. To me, it's not even a controversial statement. 

 

I agree with the decision to keep Pags.  Grigson, not so much.

 

But, that said, let's not forget that Luck was under center for 5 of our 8 losses this year.  I don't think he was our primary offensive problem.  He was getting about a half a second to get a pass off.  But, still, not a great comparison to losing Edge that one year.

[OffensivelyPC]

3 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

You're at my first post.    I probably have about a dozen other posts in this thread.  

 

Take a look at them and then we can talk later.  

 

The accuracy of Irsay's statement is NOT the question.     The wisdom of saying it is my issue.

 

It wasn't necessary and makes Irsay, and the Colts look bad (petty) by doing so......

 

Read the thread.....   lots of people questioned me about it....

 

Doesn't wisdom presume accuracy?

[Superman]

4 hours ago, chad72 said:

 

Getting the right coaches, finding players like Clark, Addai, Bethea, Mathis, Sanders, Collie, Garcon, McAfee, Castanzo all of whom contributed were not all flukes, IMO. How many times did the Colts pick in the mid to late 20s? Managing to find talent and first round picks to contribute, as we can see with Grigson, is not an easy thing to do. While Tobin did change the culture, the changes that Bill Polian made with bringing in Dungy and keeping Tom Moore etc. around to help with Peyton cannot be understated. Bill made the most out of our draft picks at least till Chris started running the show more, IMO.

 

The singular thing that stands out is how the team fared without the starting QB, and on that front, Grigson and the coaches have done a better job building a team that is not nearly as dependent on the QB as it was with Peyton. Peyton goes out and we are 2-14, and Luck goes out, we hang in there much better.

 

After four years, Polian was firing his coach, and Irsay targeted and hired Dungy. Every player you mentioned above, aside from Manning, was brought in after 2001. 

[bababooey]

4 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

You're at my first post.    I probably have about a dozen other posts in this thread.  

 

Take a look at them and then we can talk later.  

 

The accuracy of Irsay's statement is NOT the question.     The wisdom of saying it is my issue.

 

It wasn't necessary and makes Irsay, and the Colts look bad (petty) by doing so......

 

Read the thread.....   lots of people questioned me about it....

 

There is nothing wrong with him saying it. The FACTS (record, playoff wins, all better than Polian's first four years) is what he contemplated when choosing their fates.

[throwing BBZ]

8 minutes ago, bababooey said:

Do NOT ever tell me no one fits our culture. That's such a stupid excuse. The guy was out of football. If Grigson takes a meeting and tells him he doesn't want ANY screwing around, the guy who learned his lesson will toe the line, as evidenced by him being a good teammate and contributor in Buffalo, playing the position we definitely would have benefitted from him in. You act like bullying is the worst thing in the world considering some of the atrocities (Vick, Burress, Hardy) that have been committed by NFL players. If you can play and win then that's all forgotten, he did his time, apologized, learned his lesson and was humbled, and then was given a second chance and you didn't hear anything bad about him.

 

As for Collins there was the chance he wasn't in trouble at all as he wasn't a suspect he just had bad timing when he wanted to be spoken to. Either way, don't use the 7th on an OL you can sign a day later when he goes undrafted, use it on Collins so we have his exclusive rights. Call his bluff about sitting out and doing nothing, possibly getting out of shape, opening himself up to get in trouble, and hurting his draft stock during the next year. Either way no one else can use him against you like if he goes to a division or conference opponent. At least then you have done all you can to "Protect 12".

 

 LMAO!
 You just don`t get either issue.  I don`t get a lot of things myself so... lol

[bababooey]

Just now, throwing BBZ said:

 

 LMAO!
 You just don`t get either issue.  I don`t get a lot of things myself so... lol

Because there is no issue in bringing in Incognito for a freaking meeting if you have a paper on your desk that says "Protect 12".

[CR91]

39 minutes ago, austriancolt said:

 

 

Well jury is still out on guys like Parry, Anderson and Moncrief. Others like Butler are serviceable guys but not great players. Fleener for example wasn't that productive blame it on misuse of the coaching staff but he isn't in the same league with Gronk and Co. Don't get me wrong Grigson made some good decisions but if you compare the good and the bad moves it results in a C at best for Grigson. He is an average GM but somehow people still think the Colts are a better team than they are. They are not. And if they can't fix the Offensive Line next season they should show Grigson the door. 

 

Besides Richardson and Werner, who are these other really bad players

[Superman]

4 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

I don't think most NFL observers will read that that way.   Yes,  they may read it as a compliment to Grigson, (who I don't think sucks)  but I think they will also take it as a shot at Polian.     One could've given Grigson a compliment with ever mentioning the Polian's name.

 

"Ryan Grigson will remain as the Colts General manager.   In his first 4-years here, he's won 41 regular season games,  44 including the playoffs.    I've been pleased with his work and I'm happy to bring him back."

 

That's what Irsay could've said without mentioning Polian.    I want to stay above the fray.   I want to stay classy.   I don't want us to appear ungrateful or unappreciative of what Polian did for this franchise.     Because the odds are incredibly small that over the same period of time that Polian was the GM (14 or 15 years)  that Grigson will end up with as good a record as Polian did.     And then what? 

 

 

I think I'm pretty much caught up. I wanted to respond to this, because I think this hits at the heart of the matter.

 

To the bolded, I don't think it matters what NFL observers are going to say about this. Irsay locked up his staff long term, silencing any speculation about whether he thinks these two guys can work together. That's really the only thing that needed to be addressed by the owner, and he addressed it definitively. Maybe he did the right thing, maybe not, time will tell; but as of right now, there's nothing that anyone can say that's relevant to these current Colts about the working relationship between Grigson and Pagano. Irsay believes in his guys, and that's all that matters.

 

Polian doesn't matter at this point. All that he did for the organization doesn't change. Even if you feel like Irsay's comments were dismissive or disrespectful of Polian's HOF tenure, it doesn't really affect what the Colts are doing moving forward. Maybe I'm being incredibly naive, but I don't think we're going to be haunted by the comparison to Bill Polian. I think it's immaterial. 

 

As I said in the other post, I don't think Irsay's comments should be taken as a referendum on Bill Polian. They are his justification for keeping Ryan Grigson. Right, wrong, or indifferent. He gave us some insight into his thought process: If Polian was a HOFer and we hadn't won a playoff game in his first four years, why am I in a hurry to get rid of a team that has won three playoff games in four years? I'm actually glad he said it, because I can see what he's thinking and how he's measuring these guys.

 

I'm sure Polian will be salty about it. But again, I don't think that matters to the Colts right now.

[Superman]

21 minutes ago, luv_pony_express said:

 

I agree with the decision to keep Pags.  Grigson, not so much.

 

But, that said, let's not forget that Luck was under center for 5 of our 8 losses this year.  I don't think he was our primary offensive problem.  He was getting about a half a second to get a pass off.  But, still, not a great comparison to losing Edge that one year.

 

The bolded is not true. Even if you're exaggerating, the fact is that Luck took more time from snap to throw than most QBs. 

 

No question the OL needs work, and that's the primary issue with the offense. But Luck wasn't sharp when he was on the field.

 

As for Edge, my point was just that both teams suffered the loss of a major contributor. If anything, losing Luck was more detrimental than losing Edge.

[Bluefire4]

34 minutes ago, bababooey said:

Do NOT ever tell me no one fits our culture. That's such a stupid excuse. The guy was out of football. If Grigson takes a meeting and tells him he doesn't want ANY screwing around, the guy who learned his lesson will toe the line, as evidenced by him being a good teammate and contributor in Buffalo, playing the position we definitely would have benefitted from him in. You act like bullying is the worst thing in the world considering some of the atrocities (Vick, Burress, Hardy) that have been committed by NFL players. If you can play and win then that's all forgotten, he did his time, apologized, learned his lesson and was humbled, and then was given a second chance and you didn't hear anything bad about him.

 

As for Collins there was the chance he wasn't in trouble at all as he wasn't a suspect he just had bad timing when he wanted to be spoken to. Either way, don't use the 7th on an OL you can sign a day later when he goes undrafted, use it on Collins so we have his exclusive rights. Call his bluff about sitting out and doing nothing, possibly getting out of shape, opening himself up to get in trouble, and hurting his draft stock during the next year. Either way no one else can use him against you like if he goes to a division or conference opponent. At least then you have done all you can to "Protect 12".

After the Irsay, Rogers, Brazill, and Landry problems you can'take really blame Grigson for not wanting anymore troubledo players on the roster.

[Buck Showalter]

13 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I think I'm pretty much caught up. I wanted to respond to this, because I think this hits at the heart of the matter.

 

To the bolded, I don't think it matters what NFL observers are going to say about this. Irsay locked up his staff long term, silencing any speculation about whether he thinks these two guys can work together. That's really the only thing that needed to be addressed by the owner, and he addressed it definitively. Maybe he did the right thing, maybe not, time will tell; but as of right now, there's nothing that anyone can say that's relevant to these current Colts about the working relationship between Grigson and Pagano. Irsay believes in his guys, and that's all that matters.

 

Polian doesn't matter at this point. All that he did for the organization doesn't change. Even if you feel like Irsay's comments were dismissive or disrespectful of Polian's HOF tenure, it doesn't really affect what the Colts are doing moving forward. Maybe I'm being incredibly naive, but I don't think we're going to be haunted by the comparison to Bill Polian. I think it's immaterial. 

 

As I said in the other post, I don't think Irsay's comments should be taken as a referendum on Bill Polian. They are his justification for keeping Ryan Grigson. Right, wrong, or indifferent. He gave us some insight into his thought process: If Polian was a HOFer and we hadn't won a playoff game in his first four years, why am I in a hurry to get rid of a team that has won three playoff games in four years? I'm actually glad he said it, because I can see what he's thinking and how he's measuring these guys.

 

I'm sure Polian will be salty about it. But again, I don't think that matters to the Colts right now.

Quit making so much sense! 

[chad72]

46 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

After four years, Polian was firing his coach, and Irsay targeted and hired Dungy. Every player you mentioned above, aside from Manning, was brought in after 2001. 

 

That is the reason I mentioned Polian drafted players for his coaches' system and his first four years of drafting were for Jim Mora, who Irsay wanted to let go once Dungy was available. Thus, players drafted for Jim Mora's system became less of a fit with Dungy's system thus making it hard to see the impact they had post 2001 since Polian did not have the luxury of those players sticking around in the same system. So, we cannot truly compare those players drafted during Mora's tenure. Hence the true impact of Polian had to be gauged with players brought in after 2001 who stuck around longer but then, it makes it an apples to oranges comparison.

 

If they go based on W-L records, then hands down, yes, we are moving at a better pace in the Grigson era but then, our team was a QB away from playoff contention when Peyton went down in 2011, and pieces like McAfee, Vinatieri, Mathis, Bethea, Castanzo and Reitz were still around from the previous regime and are still around except for Bethea. Thus, one could make an argument that Grigson was walking into a winning culture more so than Polian did and Luck was just as good as Peyton to hold the weight and carry the team to the playoffs. Besides, Pagano bringing in guys like Cory Redding helped with the leadership on this team initially too.

 

If Irsay was going to bring Polian into the picture to compare with Grigson, he should have just painted the W-L record front and center as being better, nothing more, nothing less. The shock factor, more than the factual accuracy, overwhelmed the message without the message being explained, IMO. It would have been easier if Irsay just said, "hey, we are more ahead the first 4 years on the W-L front since Grigson took over than any other Colts GM's first 4 years" and left it at that, IMO.

[bababooey]

7 minutes ago, Bluefire4 said:

After the Irsay, Rogers, Brazill, and Landry problems you can'take really blame Grigson for not wanting anymore troubledo players on the roster.

I would think compassion would be prevalent in this organization. Some people deserve second chances. He was a bully and apologized. Mike Vick served his time. Peterson and served his time. Hardy is still on an NFL roster and clearly hasn't learned from his mistake. Neither has Manziel. You're telling me now that Incognito didn't deserve a MEETING?

[Bluefire4]

5 minutes ago, bababooey said:

I would think compassion would be prevalent in this organization. Some people deserve second chances. He was a bully and apologized. Mike Vick served his time. Peterson and served his time. Hardy is still on an NFL roster and clearly hasn't learned from his mistake. Neither has Manziel. You're telling me now that Incognito didn't deserve a MEETING?

It doesn't matter what I think. Nobody knows what really happened, but if Grigson didn't want to take the chance he doesn't deserve to be vilified for it.

[bababooey]

2 minutes ago, Bluefire4 said:

It doesn't matter what I think. Nobody knows what really happened, but if Grigson didn't want to take the chance he doesn't deserve to be vilified for it.

He deserves criticism for claiming to have a "Protect 12" note on his desk for the past 4 years and spends more time in the CFL and overturning every stone looking for that diamond in the rough than taking a meeting with a serviceable humbled veteran with a troubled past.

[krunk]

Also mentioned Monday, by no less than Irsay, is the idea that the Colts are an aging team. He said it in passing, but he's absolutely right. And his insertion of the comment into Monday's news conference shows the issue is top of his mind.

"We want more," Irsay said. "But (Luck) is going to be healthy. We're excited. We're probably going to have to get a little bit younger going forward. ... We're excited about the future."

 

http://www.indystar.com/story/sports/nfl/colts/2016/01/05/chuck-pagano-coaching-staff-rob-chudzinski-indianapolis-colts/78307440/

 

 

As I had mentioned before this is where we are headed into the future.  As he mentions in the article Irsay is "Looking To Get Younger".  That says we will be building through the draft going forward in my mind.

[bababooey]

25 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

The bolded is not true. Even if you're exaggerating, the fact is that Luck took more time from snap to throw than most QBs. 

 

No question the OL needs work, and that's the primary issue with the offense. But Luck wasn't sharp when he was on the field.

 

As for Edge, my point was just that both teams suffered the loss of a major contributor. If anything, losing Luck was more detrimental than losing Edge.

Don't have official #'s but I've seen online throughout the year that Hasselbeck is like top 5 in terms of seconds of snap to pass vs. Luck who is towards the bottom 5. The OL did play better for Hasselbeck, but be it playing easier defenses, benching Herremans and moving Mewhort back to guard, changing coordinators. Luck played the worst vs. pressure as I sent you in that grantland article a month into the season. If Luck and the line get it together at the same time...look out.

[bababooey]

2 minutes ago, krunk said:

Also mentioned Monday, by no less than Irsay, is the idea that the Colts are an aging team. He said it in passing, but he's absolutely right. And his insertion of the comment into Monday's news conference shows the issue is top of his mind.

"We want more," Irsay said. "But (Luck) is going to be healthy. We're excited. We're probably going to have to get a little bit younger going forward. ... We're excited about the future."

 

http://www.indystar.com/story/sports/nfl/colts/2016/01/05/chuck-pagano-coaching-staff-rob-chudzinski-indianapolis-colts/78307440/

 

 

As I had mentioned before this is where we are headed into the future.  As he mentions in the article Irsay is "Looking To Get Younger".  That says we will be building through the draft going forward in my mind.

Also less money to throw at the wrong guys. Much less margin for error. Maybe no more bargain basement players.

[krunk]

I think the 2016 Colts are going to look pretty good.  Especially on the D line.

[pgt_rob]

5 minutes ago, krunk said:

I think the 2016 Colts are going to look pretty good.  Especially on the D line.

 

Don't you jinx us again Dwayne Allen!

[bababooey]

Just now, pgt_rob said:

 

Don't you jinx us again Dwayne Allen!

He's good as gone. Giants or Jets will pay him.

[pgt_rob]

Just now, bababooey said:

He's good as gone. Giants or Jets will pay him.

 

I was referring to Dwayne Allen saying we have an Allstar Super Team after all the free agent signings we did. He jinxed us. lol

[NewColtsFan]

43 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

 

 

As I said in the other post, I don't think Irsay's comments should be taken as a referendum on Bill Polian. They are his justification for keeping Ryan Grigson. Right, wrong, or indifferent. He gave us some insight into his thought process: If Polian was a HOFer and we hadn't won a playoff game in his first four years, why am I in a hurry to get rid of a team that has won three playoff games in four years? I'm actually glad he said it, because I can see what he's thinking and how he's measuring these guys.

 

I think that's your strongest argument.    Really solid.

 

I just don't like dragging Polian's name into it.    As I noted earlier,  there was a way to justify Grigson without having to bring in Polian.    Especially given the less than amicable way things have gone the last number of years with Bill.     It sure feels like Irsay holds a grudge, and I don't think he should.    Not that he should be happy with winning only 1 SB,  but there's only so much a person can do.    The Colts could've won the 2nd SB.    They didn't.     I'm not sure the fault lies with Polian.

 

[LJpalmbeacher2]

Hearing that Griggs and more importantly Pagano coming back was like taking a blow to the gut!

Obviously Irsay has more important things on his mind than to conduct a competent HC search and interview process. That can time and energy which he can now spend elsewhere.

We have never had a Big Time coach since forever, since Shula in Baltimore. Once again we will be Out game planned, out prepared, and out coached for at least the next several seasons.

A sad dysfunctional organization starting from the top.

[bababooey]

7 minutes ago, pgt_rob said:

 

I was referring to Dwayne Allen saying we have an Allstar Super Team after all the free agent signings we did. He jinxed us. lol

Yea I know he used the Dream Team word like the Eagles a few years earlier. Think he's gone.

[jet1968]

What "BIG TIME" coach were you wanting to hire?

[bababooey]

5 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

I think that's your strongest argument.    Really solid.

 

I just don't like dragging Polian's name into it.    As I noted earlier,  there was a way to justify Grigson without having to bring in Polian.    Especially given the less than amicable way things have gone the last number of years with Bill.     It sure feels like Irsay holds a grudge, and I don't think he should.    Not that he should be happy with winning only 1 SB,  but there's only so much a person can do.    The Colts could've won the 2nd SB.    They didn't.     I'm not sure the fault lies with Polian.

 

I don't think there is any grudge considering the successes they had. A lot of crap happened including Peyton's injury and it all fell apart in one season then just as easy as it fell apart it was put back together. All good things come to an end. Polian gave us a hall of fame performance at GM and just like most hall of fame athletes, he didn't go out on top. I blame a lot more people than Polian for playoff exits if you go back and look at those losses individually and identify the one play that if it went our way would have been a difference maker.

[Nick93]

I think some things us fans tend to forget is even though the owners are millionaires, they have a lot of their lives invested in the team. This is still a business and every owner wants to have a successful team just as much as the fans if not more. So in saying that, it is unreasonable to say Irsay does not want to put in the time and energy to make the team better. If he did not feel like this was the best option he wouldn't have done it. Now yes people will disagree with it, but to make it sound like doesn't care isn't right. There is also a lot that goes on that we don't know about.

[ColtsSouljah]

I'm a Colts fan. I was not sad yesterday.

[ColtsUrUs]

Sad day for you maybe. Where do you think we where going to get this big time HC from? Hmmm maybe you wanted Nick S. as the HC even though he sucked as a HC in the NFL his first time around.

[LJpalmbeacher2]

Just now, jet1968 said:

What "BIG TIME" coach were you wanting to hire?

 

Well on top of my list were Harbaugh & Myer but not available, timing not right, as usual for the Colts.

Then possibly Saban and I heard Gruden was interested in coaching Luck.

And there is Chip Kelley, who was fired not because of being a bad coach But because of his arrogance and front office issues.

But setting aside Big Time names I doubt a unproven assistant or college coach would be worse than pagano.

[Narcosys]

[SIXTHOBJECT]

Do we really need another thread about this. Not everybody is sad. 

I can't wait til next season and you all love Jim my for this move.

Mark my words the colts will be in the playoffs next year.

[bababooey]

oh my god they obviously sat down and reconciled and grigson conceded power or they wouldnt have been extended. get over it. go join the other big thread to complain.

[Happy2BeHere]

Oh boy...thread # 5486845623949234 about this same topic....

[B~Town]

It seems like the fans that truly understand football were not unhappy only the ones that listen the media machine are upset .

[CR91]

Ugh please lock this