The sky is not falling, everyone relax [Mega-merge]

[Superman]

If "everything is fixable" then why hasn't it been fixed?  Griggs/Pags have had 4 years now to address our trench deficiencies on both sides of the ball.  Don't tell me how it's fixable just FIX IT!

 

Trench deficiencies aren't the reason the Colts lost to the Bills. 

[Superman]

Your Pagano quote says it all

 

It does.

 

I'm certainly not acting like the coaching staff has been above reproach. I just don't think the poor showing on Sunday is a reflection of poor coaching. I guess when players play like junk you can blame the staff for not preparing them or adjusting or whatever buzz word people like to use to criticize coaching staffs.

 

But the truth is that Andrew Luck didn't play as well as he could have; same thing in the first two weeks last year, with high throws, low throws, late throws, underthrows, slow reads, etc... I'm not remotely concerned with Luck, but he wasn't good.

 

And the ILBs were allergic to tackling and/or staying square on run plays. And Butler got burned several times. And Holmes penalty was awful. And Dorsett muffed a punt when we were trying to mount a comeback and had just gotten a tough stop on defense. And so on...

 

Long story short, though, if the Colts don't play better, specifically against the run, Pagano and most of his staff won't be back next season. He knows it, and so does everyone else. 

[Grigs build the lines plz.]

This is only the coaching staff's 4th year with the team so not sure what 4 years ago has to do with anything.

 

I think you might be forgetting that we've lead the league in comeback victories over the past 3 years, the comeback over KC in the playoffs 2 years ago, etc.   If anything, this team has shown a lot of toughness and resiliency under this coaching staff and has played with a never-say-die attitude. 

Not against physical teams.

[akcolt]

How many players that are currently starting for the Colts, that made mistakes on Sunday, have actually been on the team for 4 years?

5 2 are kickers Mathis Reitz Castonzo. Every other player has been brought in by Grigs but he sucks so do the coaches and we are headed for a top 10 pick

When we win Monday the Super Bowl talk can start again. It gets silly.

[JColts72]

Can the coaching be fixed too?

[Coltsman1788]

Trench deficiencies aren't the reason the Colts lost to the Bills.

It isn't? Coulda fooled me with all the pressure Luck was facing Sunday.

Anyway...my comment was geared more towards the problems that have plagued us since Griggs has been GM. No Oline and no D line. I understand that Pagano was speaking only of Sunday but he has been saying stuff is fixable for the past few years and it never seems to get fixed.

[ColtsBTM12]

I'm not hitting the panic button and I think most Colts fans probably aren't either, it's the national media who has hit the panic button over the Colts and their "Super Bowl chances". People forget that it's only week one and that there's so much time left in the season. We walked into a buzz saw against one of the most talented teams in the NFL and perhaps the best defense in the NFL, and lost. It happens. Packers and Patriots were the two best teams in the league for most of last season and they both struggled in the first few games of the year.

[GoColts8818]

The penalties killed us, I agree. Having said that a lot of making mental mistakes is on the Coaching. To me it's SB or bust now. After making the AFC Title Game anything less is a failure.

I blame both the player and coaches for penalties.  Clearly the player made the mistake so you can't just over look but when your team collectively has an issue with penalties (which the Colts have had since Pagano here) some of that goes on the coaches.  Dungy used to preach not beating yourself with penalties and turnovers.  It might not have been flashy but it was sure effective and it would be nice to see Pagano focus on them a little more.

[GoColts8818]

If "everything is fixable" then why hasn't it been fixed?  Griggs/Pags have had 4 years now to address our trench deficiencies on both sides of the ball.  Don't tell me how it's fixable just FIX IT!

I remember when Dungy said something very close to this after the Jags game in 06 and everyone roasted him alive for it just like people are doing with Pagano right now.  Flash Forward a few weeks and the Colts were Super Bowl Champs, thanks in large part to correcting the mistakes that dogged them in the Jags game. 

[Superman]

It isn't? Coulda fooled me with all the pressure Luck was facing Sunday.

Anyway...my comment was geared more towards the problems that have plagued us since Griggs has been GM. No Oline and no D line. I understand that Pagano was speaking only of Sunday but he has been saying stuff is fixable for the past few years and it never seems to get fixed.

 

What pressure? Fourteen total pressures (with several coming from backs missing pickups) on 53 dropbacks. The protection was fine.

 

The trench play was fine in both phases on Sunday. Luck played poorly, and the ILBs sucked and Butler got burned too many times. Plus a couple drive-killing penalties early, and that's pretty much all you can blame on the OL. 

 

So no, trench deficiencies are not the reason the Colts lost to the Bills.

[Coltsman1788]

I remember when Dungy said something very close to this after the Jags game in 06 and everyone roasted him alive for it just like people are doing with Pagano right now.  Flash Forward a few weeks and the Colts were Super Bowl Champs, thanks in large part to correcting the mistakes that dogged them in the Jags game.

And Dungy was a much better coach and motivator than Pagano in my opinion. 2006 was a long time ago. Not relevant to today.

[GoColts8818]

And Dungy was a much better coach and motivator than Pagano in my opinion. 2006 was a long time ago. Not relevant to today.

The point being things that fans often deem can't be fixed are often very fixable, especially when you are one game into a season. 

[Coltsman1788]

What pressure? Fourteen total pressures (with several coming from backs missing pickups) on 53 dropbacks. The protection was fine.

 

The trench play was fine in both phases on Sunday. Luck played poorly, and the ILBs sucked and Butler got burned too many times. Plus a couple drive-killing penalties early, and that's pretty much all you can blame on the OL. 

 

So no, trench deficiencies are not the reason the Colts lost to the Bills.

Luck was under duress all day. You think he played like crap for nothing? Come on Superman! What the heck? So that was on our running backs...ok. Lol Our offensive line play must improve...simple as that. Stop trying to sugar coat it. You'll probably be making the same excuses again next year when our pass protection still sucks. Griggs has been challenged when it comes to building our lines. Anyone not wearing blue shades with horseshoes on can see this.

[Superman]

Luck was under duress all day. You think he played like crap for nothing? Come on Superman! What the heck? So that was on our running backs...ok. Lol Our offensive line play must improve...simple as that. Stop trying to sugar coat it. You'll probably be making the same excuses again next year when our pass protection still sucks. Griggs has been challenged when it comes to building our lines. Anyone not wearing blue shades with horseshoes on can see this.

No he wasn't. Fourteen pressures on 53 dropbacks. Hit three times, including the sack. Stop it.

[zibby43]

Our coaches aren't the ones that got flagged for holding to negate a 30 yard completion, which ultimately put us in a position to start off losing the field position battle.  Holmes did that.

 

Our coaches didn't overshoot their gap and allow a 26 yard rushing touchdown.  Freeman did that.

 

Our coaches didn't underthrow a pass that got intercepted and lead to a Bills' touchdown.  Luck did that.

 

Our coaches didn't decide to run a kickoff out of the endzone and slip on the 3 yard line, putting us in terrible field position.  Moncrief did that.

 

Our coaches didn't muff 2 punts, one of them being recovered by another team.  Dorsett did that.

 

Our coaches didn't play terrible coverage on a 51 yard touchdown.  Butler did that.

 

Our coaches didn't terribly miss a 52 yard field goal, which put the Bills in good field position and lead to a touchdown.  Vinatieri did that.

 

Our coaches didn't drop a 2 point conversion that hit them right in the hands.  Andre Johnson did that.

 

Our coaches didn't hit the opposing QB high and late to move them from their territory to our territory.  Walden did that.  If not for that bone-headed play to give them 15 free yards, I'd say the only time we were 'outcoached' this game was when the Bills scored a TD on their first drive of the second half.

 

If we correct the mental mistakes and turnovers, we would have had a very good shot at winning that game.  That is the best defense we will probably face all season.  There is absolutely no reason to call for the coaches' heads or panic yet.  If we don't cut down on these mistakes and see improvements, then maybe we can start throwing the blame at the coaches.  It was week 1 in a 16 game season, I'm pretty sure we'll be just fine with the coaches we have.

 

If there was a post Hall of Fame on this forum, this one would be in it.

 

Bravo good sir.

[Coltsman1788]

The point being things that fans often deem can't be fixed are often very fixable, especially when you are one game into a season.

Pags/Griggs have had 3 years to fix these issues going on four. They continue to fail. All along asserting everything is "fixable". But it has yet to get fixed. It's not about just one game.

[Coltsman1788]

No he wasn't. Fourteen pressures on 53 dropbacks. Hit three times, including the sack. Stop it.

I will not stop it. I stand by what I say. Take over the blue shades Supes. Luck was harassed all day...I saw the game. He never got in sync because Rex got all up in his kitchen. He needs better protection than what he has been getting in Indianapolis.

If he wasn't under any pressure Sunday as you say then I guess he just sucked for no reason. That makes no sense. Bills exploited our weakness. Credit to them.

[GoColts8818]

Pags/Griggs have had 3 years to fix these issues going on four. They continue to fail. All along asserting everything is "fixable". But it has yet to get fixed. It's not about just one game.

and the run defense had been bad under Dungy since he got here in 2002 and was still bad in 2006 which is why people laughed at him when he said it was fixable after the Jags game, yet guess what it was.  Every season is different.  This one is extremely young, and frankly when you stop and look at things that went wrong they are fixable.  There was some sloppy tackling, over pursuing by linebackers, and just not being disciplined enough, not unlike what we were seeing towards the end of 2006, those things can ALL be fixed. 

[Jason_]

You pretty much made a great case for us having terrible coaches. No player discipline (dumb penalties, poor technique), Bad tackling and Gap responsibility performance, etc. etc. etc. The only thing I don't blame the coaches for is the missed field goal, although perhaps that was too long for the wind conditions, so even that could have been the wrong decision but I give them a pass on it. Mental mistakes and turnovers are affected by coaching. Great coaches teach players to make the right decision at the right time. It also teaches them how to field a punt or what coverages you can throw into. Why you hold the coaches responsible almost nothing is puzzling. Then why should we have coaches if they do not impact these things?

If your child does something you've already told him numerous times not to do....does that automatically make you a bad parent?

[Coltsman1788]

and the run defense had been bad under Dungy since he got here in 2002 and was still bad in 2006 which is why people laughed at him when he said it was fixable after the Jags game, yet guess what it was.  Every season is different.  This one is extremely young, and frankly when you stop and look at things that went wrong they are fixable.  There was some sloppy tackling, over pursuing by linebackers, and just not being disciplined enough, not unlike what we were seeing towards the end of 2006, those things can ALL be fixed.

They may be fixable but is Pagano the guy to fix it? He hasn't fielded one good Colts defense during his tenure. At least Dungy had 2005 where our defense was actually good for once. I had more confidence in Dungy as a coach to get things corrected than I do in Chuck Pagano. Dungy actually made second half adjustments when needed. I have yet to see that attribute in Pagano. We will just have to see how it plays out. But for now I just want to see it get fixed as opposed to keep hearing about how it can be.

[GoColts8818]

They may be fixable but is Pagano the guy to fix it? He hasn't fielded one good Colts defense during his tenure. At least Dungy had 2005 where our defense was actually good for once. I had more confidence in Dungy as a coach to get things corrected than I do in Chuck Pagano. Dungy actually made second half adjustments when needed. I have yet to see that attribute in Pagano. We will just have to see how it plays out. But for now I just want to see it get fixed as opposed to keep hearing about how it can be.

We better darn well hope so or this is going to be a long season. It's week one.  It's a little early to give up on things and say these issues can't be fixed.  Trust me if he can't get it fixed there is going to be a lot of time to yell about Pagano and frankly if he can't get them fixed it's more than likely he wont be the Head Coach here next year. 

 

While I agree with the idea that Dungy is a better coach than Pagano I don't think that makes Pagano a bum.  I think Dungy was a very special coach, a Hall of Fame coach and a coach who is frankly underrated by many Colts fans for one reason or another but that's a debate for another thread.  As for Pagano I think he's a good coach, not Hall of Fame good, but those coaches are hard to find.  I think he's done a good job as a head coach, you don't win like the Colts have under him and have a coach who can't coach.  I also disagree with the idea that he doesn't make second half adjustments.  The Colts have very much been a second half team since he's been the head coach.  Look at all the comebacks under him and that the Colts have been at their best in the second half of games under him and that tells me he is pretty good at making second half adjustments.  When I think of a coach who wasn't good at making second half adjustments I think Jim Caldwell where the Colts would come out with a really good game plan but then struggle in the second half of games and looked like a team who hadn't changed anything at the half.  In some ways Pagano is the reverse of Caldwell, not great game plans out of the gate (hence the slow starts) but very good in the second half when they get a chance to make changes at halftime. 

 

Like I said before when you look at what the issues really were in Buffalo they are very fixable for the most part.  Now it's time to see if they can do it or not.  If they can't then there will be a new coach here next season. 

[Superman]

I will not stop it. I stand by what I say. Take over the blue shades Supes. Luck was harassed all day...I saw the game. He never got in sync because Rex got all up in his kitchen. He needs better protection than what he has been getting in Indianapolis.

If he wasn't under any pressure Sunday as you say then I guess he just sucked for no reason. That makes no sense. Bills exploited our weakness. Credit to them.

 

I don't know why you think Luck is incapable of having a bad game all on his own. Take some time to rewatch the Bills game, and do so without holding your Andrew Luck action figure (see how that goes?), and you'll see a QB who was just off, all on his own. We've seen it before. Sometimes Luck just misses throws. Every QB does. He's young, his timing is off, it happens.

 

For every throw that was influenced by him being 'harassed,' there were two where he was under no pressure and just plain missed. The first interception, he had a clean pocket, no pressure, and just plain underthrew Hilton. On the third and 4 screen to Gore, Luck missed the throw again. And so on, and so on. He was off because he was off. It wasn't someone else's fault.

 

You can stand by what you say all you want, that doesn't make it any less wrong. Luck wasn't harassed all day, he wasn't under duress all day, and the protection wasn't bad. It was actually pretty good, all things considered. And the few times when the pressure did heat up is probably more attributable to the way the team (meaning Luck) abandoned the run game for most of the first half. 

[Coltsman1788]

I don't know why you think Luck is incapable of having a bad game all on his own. Take some time to rewatch the Bills game, and do so without holding your Andrew Luck action figure (see how that goes?), and you'll see a QB who was just off, all on his own. We've seen it before. Sometimes Luck just misses throws. Every QB does. He's young, his timing is off, it happens.

 

For every throw that was influenced by him being 'harassed,' there were two where he was under no pressure and just plain missed. The first interception, he had a clean pocket, no pressure, and just plain underthrew Hilton. On the third and 4 screen to Gore, Luck missed the throw again. And so on, and so on. He was off because he was off. It wasn't someone else's fault.

 

You can stand by what you say all you want, that doesn't make it any less wrong. Luck wasn't harassed all day, he wasn't under duress all day, and the protection wasn't bad. It was actually pretty good, all things considered. And the few times when the pressure did heat up is probably more attributable to the way the team (meaning Luck) abandoned the run game for most of the first half.

I never said Luck is infallible and have been critical of him when justified. He was not at his best but the Bills defense had much to do with that. He was under consistent pressure from the Bills defense which contributed to his poor performance. Rex Ryan defenses have been known to do that. I'm not going to continue to go back and forth with you on this. I saw the game and Luck hurrying throws because he had to get rid of the ball quickly often throwing off of his back foot. It affected his rhythm.

You think I'm wrong and I think you are wrong. We disagree on this one and nothing is changing here.

[Superman]

I never said Luck is infallible and have been critical of him when justified. He was not at his best but the Bills defense had much to do with that. He was under consistent pressure from the Bills defense which contributed to his poor performance. Rex Ryan defenses have been known to do that. I'm not going to continue to go back and forth with you on this. I saw the game and Luck hurrying throws because he had to get rid of the ball quickly often throwing off of his back foot. It affected his rhythm.

You think I'm wrong and I think you are wrong. We disagree on this one and nothing is changing here.

 

To the bolded, no he wasn't. 

[krunk]

It does.

 

I'm certainly not acting like the coaching staff has been above reproach. I just don't think the poor showing on Sunday is a reflection of poor coaching. I guess when players play like junk you can blame the staff for not preparing them or adjusting or whatever buzz word people like to use to criticize coaching staffs.

 

But the truth is that Andrew Luck didn't play as well as he could have; same thing in the first two weeks last year, with high throws, low throws, late throws, underthrows, slow reads, etc... I'm not remotely concerned with Luck, but he wasn't good.

 

And the ILBs were allergic to tackling and/or staying square on run plays. And Butler got burned several times. And Holmes penalty was awful. And Dorsett muffed a punt when we were trying to mount a comeback and had just gotten a tough stop on defense. And so on...

 

Long story short, though, if the Colts don't play better, specifically against the run, Pagano and most of his staff won't be back next season. He knows it, and so does everyone else. 

 

 

What's your take on Butler? It seems to me he's been kind of non existent lately(I'm including the latter portion of last year too) and I'm not just talking about when he has to fill in for Toler.  Even in the slot he doesn't seem as effective as he used to be.  I could be wrong maybe.

[Superman]

What's your take on Butler? It seems to me he's been kind of non existent lately(I'm including the latter portion of last year too) and I'm not just talking about when he has to fill in for Toler.  Even in the slot he doesn't seem as effective as he used to be.  I could be wrong maybe.

 

Not great for Butler, IMO. He can get hot, but he can also get worked from time to time. Especially on the outside, but even in the slot. Last year, all three of his TDs allowed were in the slot, but he also only gave up 26 catches on 45 targets, in 290 snaps. I think he's above average as a nickelback, but outside, he's below average.

[YourTearinApartLisa!]

No need to act like the sky is falling. But if this is still happening in week 4 I would begin to worry. I have always believed since the Dungy days that the problem was coaching. We need more of a hard nosed, in your face coach kind of like Cowher and Parcells. Pep is just seems so    with some of his play calls. I know Andrew could have been the one that checked out and if he did maybe they need to take away some of his play calling authority. I mean giving up on the run after the first quarter seems like something a kid playing Madden would do. Against medicore coaches some of things might work but against Rex and definitely against Belichick they are absolutely going to adjust and dominate you. Makes me miss the Moore. He called the right plays and Manning was amazing checking out when he saw something. Andrew will get there I believe but Pep and Pagano both need to go. 

[superrep1967]

Infinite number of "the sky is falling" threads. I'm going to stay away from them, and get on with my life. Yes, I'm disappointed, but I remember going 0-2 last year, and we came real close. Not worried. Not worried at all.

Yes RELAX~ Aaron Rogers 2014

[ColtsFanMikeC]

I blame both the player and coaches for penalties.  Clearly the player made the mistake so you can't just over look but when your team collectively has an issue with penalties (which the Colts have had since Pagano here) some of that goes on the coaches.  Dungy used to preach not beating yourself with penalties and turnovers.  It might not have been flashy but it was sure effective and it would be nice to see Pagano focus on them a little more.

 

Penalties have not been a big issue since Pagano has been in Indy.  Last week we had 5 penalties, only 8 teams in the league had less than that.  The problem with them was at least two of them were very untimely.

 

In 2012, we were the 8th least penalized team in the league.  In 2013, Pagano's first full year on the sideline, we were the least penalized team in the league.  In 2014, we were 15th in the league in penalties.  So ever since Pagano has been here, we've been in the top 75%, the top, or the top 50% in penalties against us.  Last year, one third of our penalties were false starts or offensive holding, which makes sense given how bad our line was and how little we had the same unit on the field at the same time (we were tied for 6th most false starts and 14th most offensive holdings).  If we cut those 35 penalties out last year, we would have been the least penalized team in the league.

 

Pags/Griggs have had 3 years to fix these issues going on four. They continue to fail. All along asserting everything is "fixable". But it has yet to get fixed. It's not about just one game.

 

We are the 4th most winningest team in the NFL since Grigs/Pags got here, when they inherited the losingest team in football from the year prior.  We have lost back-to-back games in the regular season only once in this era.  The coaches have done pretty good at making adjustments and pretty good at winning without having the most talented team.

 

They may be fixable but is Pagano the guy to fix it? He hasn't fielded one good Colts defense during his tenure. At least Dungy had 2005 where our defense was actually good for once. I had more confidence in Dungy as a coach to get things corrected than I do in Chuck Pagano. Dungy actually made second half adjustments when needed. I have yet to see that attribute in Pagano. We will just have to see how it plays out. But for now I just want to see it get fixed as opposed to keep hearing about how it can be.

 

In terms of scoring (points allowed) Pagano inherited the 5th worst defense in the league.  In his first  year we were the 12th worst defense in the league.  In his second year, we were the 24th worst defense in the league.  In his 3rd year, we were the 14th worst team in the league.

 

In terms of yards allowed Pagano inherited the 8th worst defense in the league. In his first year we were the 7th worst defense in the league.  In his second year we were the 13th worst defense in the league. In his 3rd year, we were the 22nd worst in the league.

 

Either way you look at it, Pagano has significantly improved the defense he inherited.  Add to the fact that in his first year, in his first year we drafted an injured (IR'ed) Josh Chapman and then a DE named Tim Fugger in the 7th round.  In his second year, the only defensive players we drafted were Werner, M. Hughes, and J. Boyett.  In his 3rd year, we only drafted defensive players in Newsome and Andrew Jackson.  In his first 3 years, less than 1/3 of our draft picks were defensive players.  Of them, only 2 are still on the team and both are back-ups.

 

We signed a bunch of average/below average vets to plug holes.  Redding was average and did a good job helping with team leadership.  RJF was below average. Landry was below average. D'Qwell Jackson last year I would say was above average in run game and below average in the pass game (last week he was below average overall).  Walden is average (below average when he first got here, but he seems to be improving).  Mike Adams is average (he had a good year last year, but he is an average player).  Jerrell Freeman is average or below average.  Toler is average.  Art Jones is above average if he is healthy, which he has not been for us. 

 

The only defensive player this team has acquired since Pagano has arrived who has been consistently good is Vontae.  The only other defensive player who was consistently good on any of the defenses Pagano has had was Mathis 2 years ago.

 

This year, we drafted Anderson, Parry, D. Smith, Geathers, and Herrera (5 this year compared to 7 the previous 3 years combined).  So far, two of these picks are starting and it looks like Geathers will be an integral part of our D while Smith should see playing time when he's healthy.  We signed Lowery, Cole, Irving, Langford, acquired Sio Moore (none of these guys seem to be anything special, although I'm excited to see how they progress this season -- they certainly are upgrades to what we had, which isn't saying much).

 

Fact of the matter is, Pagano came into a very bad defense with players not suited to play in the defensive scheme he has implemented.  Grigson has done very little with draft picks and FA acquisitions to help improve the defense.  Pagano has still made this defense better.  This past offseason was by far the most we have addressed the defense in the 4 offseasons that Pagano has been here and it looks like we may have actually acquired some talented players.  Let's see how the D turns out this year -- so far the line play looked better than I've seen it in years.  It should help when we get a healthy Mathis and Toler back on the field and it may help if we get Sio Moore and Irving in sync with our defense.

 

No need to act like the sky is falling. But if this is still happening in week 4 I would begin to worry. I have always believed since the Dungy days that the problem was coaching. We need more of a hard nosed, in your face coach kind of like Cowher and Parcells. Pep is just seems so    with some of his play calls. I know Andrew could have been the one that checked out and if he did maybe they need to take away some of his play calling authority. I mean giving up on the run after the first quarter seems like something a kid playing Madden would do. Against medicore coaches some of things might work but against Rex and definitely against Belichick they are absolutely going to adjust and dominate you. Makes me miss the Moore. He called the right plays and Manning was amazing checking out when he saw something. Andrew will get there I believe but Pep and Pagano both need to go. 

 

I tend to agree with you that a lot of the check downs may have been from Luck.  However, I don't think we should take that responsibility away from him.  He has had a tremendous first 3 years in the league and is said to have an extremely high football intelligence.  Bruce Arians, who also coached Peyton, said Luck absorbs football knowledge even faster than Peyton ever could.  We need to take the training wheels off Luck.  If he is as smart as he's cracked up to be, he'll learn from the mistakes he made last week very quickly and he will be just fine.

[Defjamz26]

Like someone else said: it's not because it's week 1 of 2015. It's because it's week 1 of year 4. Same problems we had in 2012.

A perfect summary of the issue at hand. Well said.

[Superman]

I tend to agree with you that a lot of the check downs may have been from Luck.  However, I don't think we should take that responsibility away from him.  He has had a tremendous first 3 years in the league and is said to have an extremely high football intelligence.  Bruce Arians, who also coached Peyton, said Luck absorbs football knowledge even faster than Peyton ever could.  We need to take the training wheels off Luck.  If he is as smart as he's cracked up to be, he'll learn from the mistakes he made last week very quickly and he will be just fine.

 

I think last week's game is evidence that Luck isn't quite ready to have the training wheels taken all the way off. Or at the least, if he starts tipping off to the side, someone should grab him before he crashes. And they should do so before the offense has run 19 straight pass plays, with zero success.

[dw49]

No he wasn't. Fourteen pressures on 53 dropbacks. Hit three times, including the sack. Stop it.

 

 

I'm always defending Luck but I'll admit he did not have anything that resembled a good game, I think he was under a little more pressure than you say but I'll agree that the O line did OK and he was much to blame for the loss.

 

So pretty much agreeing with you but that above stat is a bit deceiving as they went with more 3 step drops as the game progressed. 

[ColtsFanMikeC]

I think last week's game is evidence that Luck isn't quite ready to have the training wheels taken all the way off. Or at the least, if he starts tipping off to the side, someone should grab him before he crashes. And they should do so before the offense has run 19 straight pass plays, with zero success.

 

I agree, if he keeps it up for another game or two, it needs to be addressed.  However, I'm pretty confident in what I've seen from Andrew in his first 3 years and from what I hear from his teammates, coaches, and others around the league that he's ready to run this show.  We witnessed some growing pains last week, but I am still confident Luck is physically and mentally capable enough of learning from his mistakes and correcting them.  That said, you're right -- if he doesn't show he can fix the issue by himself, he'll need some intervention.

[Superman]

I'm always defending Luck but I'll admit he did not have anything that resembled a good game, I think he was under a little more pressure than you say but I'll agree that the O line did OK and he was much to blame for the loss.

 

So pretty much agreeing with you but that above stat is a bit deceiving as they went with more 3 step drops as the game progressed. 

 

Rick Venturi agrees with you, but I have a bone to pick.

 

I don't see how that makes the stat deceiving. I think a gameplan that gets the ball out quickly is smart, and good coaching, especially against a good pass rush. Moving the pocket, changing the point of attack, varying the snap count, short drops, quick releases... these are all tools for negating a good pass rush. It's something that has been lacking at times in the first three years. 

 

I don't mean to make it seem like the line was perfect. There was some pressure. That's normal. But the offensive line surrendered 9 pressures in 53 dropbacks (the other 5 were backs and TEs, by my count). That's not 'under duress all day,' 'harassed all day,' etc. That's not 'OMG, the line sucks and Luck is going to leave the Colts because we can't protect him,' etc. 

 

Off topic (sort of), did you see your guy Gosder? PFF credits him with 2 sacks and 3 more hurries. I only watched a little of the game, but I saw one of the sacks. Yikes. He was pretty good in protection here in 2013. Quite a drop off since then.

[Superman]

I agree, if he keeps it up for another game or two, it needs to be addressed.  However, I'm pretty confident in what I've seen from Andrew in his first 3 years and from what I hear from his teammates, coaches, and others around the league that he's ready to run this show.  We witnessed some growing pains last week, but I am still confident Luck is physically and mentally capable enough of learning from his mistakes and correcting them.  That said, you're right -- if he doesn't show he can fix the issue by himself, he'll need some intervention.

 

They should have intervened in the first quarter on Sunday.

 

I'm being hard on him, but the truth is that he's the least of my concerns. The game just got away from him for a while, and the coaches didn't course correct soon enough. I really doubt that issue continues to be a problem moving forward.

[krunk]

I think last week's game is evidence that Luck isn't quite ready to have the training wheels taken all the way off. Or at the least, if he starts tipping off to the side, someone should grab him before he crashes. And they should do so before the offense has run 19 straight pass plays, with zero success.

 

I wish we had a "I REALLY Like This" button.  Until then I guess I have to settle for the standard "Like"!

[krunk]

Penalties have not been a big issue since Pagano has been in Indy.  Last week we had 5 penalties, only 8 teams in the league had less than that.  The problem with them was at least two of them were very untimely.

 

In 2012, we were the 8th least penalized team in the league.  In 2013, Pagano's first full year on the sideline, we were the least penalized team in the league.  In 2014, we were 15th in the league in penalties.  So ever since Pagano has been here, we've been in the top 75%, the top, or the top 50% in penalties against us.  Last year, one third of our penalties were false starts or offensive holding, which makes sense given how bad our line was and how little we had the same unit on the field at the same time (we were tied for 6th most false starts and 14th most offensive holdings).  If we cut those 35 penalties out last year, we would have been the least penalized team in the league.

 

 

We are the 4th most winningest team in the NFL since Grigs/Pags got here, when they inherited the losingest team in football from the year prior.  We have lost back-to-back games in the regular season only once in this era.  The coaches have done pretty good at making adjustments and pretty good at winning without having the most talented team.

 

 

In terms of scoring (points allowed) Pagano inherited the 5th worst defense in the league.  In his first  year we were the 12th worst defense in the league.  In his second year, we were the 24th worst defense in the league.  In his 3rd year, we were the 14th worst team in the league.

 

In terms of yards allowed Pagano inherited the 8th worst defense in the league. In his first year we were the 7th worst defense in the league.  In his second year we were the 13th worst defense in the league. In his 3rd year, we were the 22nd worst in the league.

 

Either way you look at it, Pagano has significantly improved the defense he inherited.  Add to the fact that in his first year, in his first year we drafted an injured (IR'ed) Josh Chapman and then a DE named Tim Fugger in the 7th round.  In his second year, the only defensive players we drafted were Werner, M. Hughes, and J. Boyett.  In his 3rd year, we only drafted defensive players in Newsome and Andrew Jackson.  In his first 3 years, less than 1/3 of our draft picks were defensive players.  Of them, only 2 are still on the team and both are back-ups.

 

We signed a bunch of average/below average vets to plug holes.  Redding was average and did a good job helping with team leadership.  RJF was below average. Landry was below average. D'Qwell Jackson last year I would say was above average in run game and below average in the pass game (last week he was below average overall).  Walden is average (below average when he first got here, but he seems to be improving).  Mike Adams is average (he had a good year last year, but he is an average player).  Jerrell Freeman is average or below average.  Toler is average.  Art Jones is above average if he is healthy, which he has not been for us. 

 

The only defensive player this team has acquired since Pagano has arrived who has been consistently good is Vontae.  The only other defensive player who was consistently good on any of the defenses Pagano has had was Mathis 2 years ago.

 

This year, we drafted Anderson, Parry, D. Smith, Geathers, and Herrera (5 this year compared to 7 the previous 3 years combined).  So far, two of these picks are starting and it looks like Geathers will be an integral part of our D while Smith should see playing time when he's healthy.  We signed Lowery, Cole, Irving, Langford, acquired Sio Moore (none of these guys seem to be anything special, although I'm excited to see how they progress this season -- they certainly are upgrades to what we had, which isn't saying much).

 

Fact of the matter is, Pagano came into a very bad defense with players not suited to play in the defensive scheme he has implemented.  Grigson has done very little with draft picks and FA acquisitions to help improve the defense.  Pagano has still made this defense better.  This past offseason was by far the most we have addressed the defense in the 4 offseasons that Pagano has been here and it looks like we may have actually acquired some talented players.  Let's see how the D turns out this year -- so far the line play looked better than I've seen it in years.  It should help when we get a healthy Mathis and Toler back on the field and it may help if we get Sio Moore and Irving in sync with our defense.

 

 

I tend to agree with you that a lot of the check downs may have been from Luck.  However, I don't think we should take that responsibility away from him.  He has had a tremendous first 3 years in the league and is said to have an extremely high football intelligence.  Bruce Arians, who also coached Peyton, said Luck absorbs football knowledge even faster than Peyton ever could.  We need to take the training wheels off Luck.  If he is as smart as he's cracked up to be, he'll learn from the mistakes he made last week very quickly and he will be just fine.

 

 

Now that I look at this Boyett was really the guy who I think Grigson had in mind to take over for Landry and he probably would have if it wasn't for the massive alcohol problems he has.  I'm saying this to say there are various different things that happened that kind of derailed some of Grigsons plans for the defense as well.  Overall I think the biggest thing of course is we just really haven't had the opportunity until this years draft to draft a large number of defensive players.   I certainly see that trend changing going forward though.

[Jdubu]

Here is my take on this issue surrounding the team. I have seen a lot of people say we are the same on defense and the same old predictable offense and that Griggs should be fired and Pags and so on. What I can agree with is that Pags is not my view of a strong leader for the team but he isn't the only link in the chain that's got us a little soft.

I loved what I seen coming out of the shoot for both sides of the ball with the first few series. Now penalties aside, I thought they looked to be playing with fire and attack. The penalties came and the offense went away from the run game. The defense played too far off the receiver's and the special teams made errors. We played behind on field advantage all day it seemed. I want to point out a few things that sticks out to me however, I do believe this is game 1 and we will not be the same team as what we seen as we develop through the season and therefore not overly worried unless this game is the trend in how we handle games and adversity.

1. Play calling. We abandoned the run early again and it appeared out of panic. Whether this is out of the coaching plans or Luck changing into a pass play from the look he sees, these are things we have seen for how many years now, including time with Manning. Coaches have to give them better hot reads and Luck has to make better situational throws if he is changing out because of the look at the LOS.

2. Tackling. How many misses do our guys seem to miss in the tackle department? Again, been an issue for years in this team. It is almost like it is a culture to not wrap up but rather try and make the big hit and dislodge the ball as opposed to just tackle the guy.

3. Separation from DB's. Our guys are not and have not had much separation from several teams DB's while we watch the opposite teams play toss with 5 yards to spare too often. Aside from Davis, everyone for an opposing is open by 5 yards and our guys look like the defense has our play book and is running the routes, and doing it better.

4. We have Fleener and Allen. How was Fleener involved in this game? What is the point in having this 2 TE package if you aren't going to involve the seems and mismatches with your pass catching TE? I get that Allen can do both but we all know who has the speed and height.

5. Luck. I am not sure we are ever going to get this QB who throws guys open and to be honest, I am a little concerned about his deep ball touch as well. When the newly inserted QB from Buffalo looks like the all star thrower in the same game conditions as luck had, it makes you think. I am not saying this to bash Luck or say he sucks or anything of that nature but I think it does give you enough to make you think about where his skill levels are right now and can those get honed better over the next 8 years? We all know he is strong, is smart and is fast but we rarely use his speed and he makes some throws that make you wonder if he is learning from past mistakes.

Again, I am not giving up on the team and the players we have now because I think we have some incredible talent in most areas. I am less sold on the coaching we have though. I do hope they are able to turn this stuff around and make the adjustments needed going forward but looking at 4 years of work, the year did not start off with the appropriate trend, it looks like the revert to what you know kinda stuff even if it doesn't always work. I can't wait to see how NE handles the Bills and what our game against the Jets look like. That QB should not torch us.

[dw49]

Rick Venturi agrees with you, but I have a bone to pick.

 

I don't see how that makes the stat deceiving. I think a gameplan that gets the ball out quickly is smart, and good coaching, especially against a good pass rush. Moving the pocket, changing the point of attack, varying the snap count, short drops, quick releases... these are all tools for negating a good pass rush. It's something that has been lacking at times in the first three years. 

 

I don't mean to make it seem like the line was perfect. There was some pressure. That's normal. But the offensive line surrendered 9 pressures in 53 dropbacks (the other 5 were backs and TEs, by my count). That's not 'under duress all day,' 'harassed all day,' etc. That's not 'OMG, the line sucks and Luck is going to leave the Colts because we can't protect him,' etc. 

 

Off topic (sort of), did you see your guy Gosder? PFF credits him with 2 sacks and 3 more hurries. I only watched a little of the game, but I saw one of the sacks. Yikes. He was pretty good in protection here in 2013. Quite a drop off since then.

 

 

I didn't hear R Venturi , he's usually pretty good. Anyway , the only point I was making is you should have less pressures and less QB hits on 3 step drops.

I think your point was fine , Luck had a bad game and the O line was not bad .... maybe not what you call good but at least adequate. But then again , they did a pretty good job of picking up all those blitzes...

 

No I didn't even know Gosder started the game. Wow.. I thought he was signed as T depth. 

[Restored]

They may be fixable but is Pagano the guy to fix it? He hasn't fielded one good Colts defense during his tenure. At least Dungy had 2005 where our defense was actually good for once. I had more confidence in Dungy as a coach to get things corrected than I do in Chuck Pagano. Dungy actually made second half adjustments when needed. I have yet to see that attribute in Pagano. We will just have to see how it plays out. But for now I just want to see it get fixed as opposed to keep hearing about how it can be.

 

I've said this before but I honestly believe there is a huge disconnect between Grigson and Pagano. Grigson has his own mindset in terms of the players he wants. Even though Polian and Dungy butted heads sometimes, they atleast were on the same page in terms of the type of players the Colts were going to get. Especially when you count the fact that Grigson has largely neglected the defense with his drafting (until this most recent draft).