Sources: Make or Break Year for HC Chuck Pagano

[AntonMcG]

I'm not saying he didn't "move up the ladder". Go ahead and ignore the question of why he bolted back to college. I'll ask it again, Was it for more money or more control? I don't want a coach that will bolt for the next best thing if it pops open. I'll state my point again as it needs to be repeated since it's not been understood all the other times I've said it. Harbaugh has left an organization within 5 years with his one NFL stint ending badly. I'm not saying he isn't a good coach, he's just one that wouldn't stick with an organization for a long time. If he were to come to the Colts, and bolt after 3-5 years, would you really be happy as a fan? If he won a super bowl during that time then maybe. But if not, it would be hurting the organization in the long run. And please, there are more failure's in NFL history than successes with the HC/GM all-in-one combo. Exceptions to the rule don't break it. Oh and tell me more about how Shanahan is a good example of a HC/GM combo. I can tell he was really successful after John Elway.

 

You are flat out missing the point yet again. My point is, every time the Colts defense was matched up against an elite-level QB, they lost. Manning carved them up. Rothlisberger did. Romo did. Heck, even Nick Foles dropped 331 passing yards. The reason's for that are agreeable but don't ignore the fact that the Colts struggled mightily last year against top-tier QB's.

 

You keep misunderstanding what I've said. Reggie Wayne was a good security blanket for Luck and was force-fed to make his numbers look inflated. People around the league know that Reggie wasn't the game-breaker he once was at that point. Meanwhile, it's common knowledge that Calvin Johnson is one of the top game-breaking WR's in the game. Having one good game against Green Bay doesn't change the body of work. I love Reggie and all the things he's done in a Colts uniform, but at that point in his career, it was clear he wasn't the same Reggie of old, which has been my point all along. There's a major difference between a security blanket and a game-breaker. If you can't figure that out, then I don't know what to tell you.

 

Whatever you say. Doesn't change the fact that the Colts shouldn't exactly blow up what they are doing in hopes of getting someone "better" like Harbaugh.

 

I don't know him personally, but I would imagine he left because of a combination of; less pressure, good money, good program, and potentially more control, though I don't see how that is a bad thing, if the HC is the visionary of how he wants to team to look, then he should have personnel control. And it is not the exception, the last two Super Bowl winning coaches had personnel control... how you ignore that is beyond me.

 

Most defenses struggle against elite QB's, that is sort of why they are elite. We have some great pieces on defense, and we lost our best player before the season started. Again, you act like good performances (Denver in the playoffs) should be treated as an exception... why? It was the biggest game of the year at that point. They have work to do, but the defense has progressed well.

 

I don't misunderstand what you said, you're just wrong. Reggie was elite in 2012. He beat teams over the top and on intermediate routes consistently, he was not a checkdown option. Either you don't know what a security blanket is, or you just didn't watch the Colts in 2012.

 

I never once said the Colts should 'blow up' what they are doing for Harbaugh. Pagano is doing well, and seems to be learning from his mistakes, as is Grigson. However, if Pagano was no longer around, and we needed a HC, I'd take Harbaugh in a heartbeat.

[amfootball]

 

Hi, I hope you don't mind. But I have copied and pasted your quote from the other thread that got locked given its descent into the abyss as I had wanted to respond it and the convo is more appropriate on this thread anyways. Here is your quote:

 

Not getting outplayed by teams with good QBs (Broncos, Steelers, Patriots, Cowboys, etc.) Like you said, more consistent play on both sides of the ball, not getting blown out, and so on. 

 

It's hard to take the Pats comparison seriously. They've been in the championship game five years in a row, two Super Bowls in the last four years, just won last year. They are a perennial contender. Meanwhile, if Cincinnati had beat Pittsburgh in Week 17, the Colts would have had to play the same team that scored 51 points on them earlier in the year, and then who knows if they even get out of the first round?

 

I've enjoyed the upward trajectory. But we've seen more teams go deep in the playoffs, lose, and go barreling back down the standings -- like the Falcons -- than teams get there and stay there for a long time. Statistically speaking, we're more likely to be a flash in the pan than to be a consistent contender. Pagano has to show that he's not Mike Smith. [end quote]

 

I think I get what you are saying but will next year determine if the Colts are heading toward the Pats success or the Falcons failure? You can look at the games and play the "what if" game all day as I am not sure the Pats would have beaten the Packers in the Super Bowl if they had beaten Seattle like they should have in the NFCCG but Pagano won two playoff games last year and took the team back to the conference title game where it had not been since 2009. I wonder if Irsay is not painting himself into a corner here because the odds are that the Colts don't got back to the AFCCG as it is hard to repeat as the last two teams standing but if the team looks better all season and more consistent, does he stay? I think this could be a catch 22.

 

A question for you - do you think Grigson is the one telling Irsay to move on from Pagano? I have a tough time believing this but with all the hub bub about their relationship I think it is begging the question.

[Restored]

I don't know him personally, but I would imagine he left because of a combination of; less pressure, good money, good program, and potentially more control, though I don't see how that is a bad thing, if the HC is the visionary of how he wants to team to look, then he should have personnel control. And it is not the exception, the last two Super Bowl winning coaches had personnel control... how you ignore that is beyond me.

 

Most defenses struggle against elite QB's, that is sort of why they are elite. We have some great pieces on defense, and we lost our best player before the season started. Again, you act like good performances (Denver in the playoffs) should be treated as an exception... why? It was the biggest game of the year at that point. They have work to do, but the defense has progressed well.

 

I don't misunderstand what you said, you're just wrong. Reggie was elite in 2012. He beat teams over the top and on intermediate routes consistently, he was not a checkdown option. Either you don't know what a security blanket is, or you just didn't watch the Colts in 2012.

 

I never once said the Colts should 'blow up' what they are doing for Harbaugh. Pagano is doing well, and seems to be learning from his mistakes, as is Grigson. However, if Pagano was no longer around, and we needed a HC, I'd take Harbaugh in a heartbeat.

 

It's not "potentially" more control. He pretty much has total control of everything at Michigan from whats been said. And maybe it's not a bad thing...for being a collegiate coach. In college, you probably DO want your HC to have as much control as possible. You can say that the coach should control over personnel in the NFL but more times than not, it doesn't work out successfully. Most teams that have had success in the past have done so with the traditional Owner-GM-Head Coach hierarchy in place. I'm not saying it doesn't work out at times, but for the most part, it's been a failure and typically ends badly. Usually with the head coach getting canned.

 

Of course most defense's don't do well against elite QB's. But when you have Ben Rothlisberger setting franchise records, Nick Foles dropping 331 passing yards and Tony Romo going 18 of 20 for 4 TD's, it's kind of an issue. Why should the Denver win be treated as the exception? Because it WAS the exception. The next game against New England, they fell back down to Earth didn't they? Don't get me wrong, the defense has improved since 12' and 13' but there is still much work to be done.

 

Reggie was not a game-breaking WR in 2012. He was still good, but to classify him as an elite WR at that point is a stretch. He definitely was not the same WR that was ripping the top off defenses like he used to. Again, 212 targets will inflate your numbers to make it appear that he's still an elite WR when that wasn't the case at all. He was still good, but not elite.

 

Never said you did, but you made it a point to call out what I had said about it. You can take Harbaugh, but at the end of the day, I don't want a head coach that will just up and leave when the next best offer opens up. There's nothing wrong with being a career-driven guy that works your way up the ladder. But there's also a reason why companies sometimes tend to not want to hire someone who's hopped around a bit, even if they are talented and the moves that they have made have been vertical.

[BOTT]

I'm not saying he didn't "move up the ladder". Go ahead and ignore the question of why he bolted back to college. I'll ask it again, Was it for more money or more control? I don't want a coach that will bolt for the next best thing if it pops open. I'll state my point again as it needs to be repeated since it's not been understood all the other times I've said it. Harbaugh has left an organization within 5 years with his one NFL stint ending badly. I'm not saying he isn't a good coach, he's just one that wouldn't stick with an organization for a long time. If he were to come to the Colts, and bolt after 3-5 years, would you really be happy as a fan? If he won a super bowl during that time then maybe. But if not, it would be hurting the organization in the long run. And please, there are more failure's in NFL history than successes with the HC/GM all-in-one combo. Exceptions to the rule don't break it. Oh and tell me more about how Shanahan is a good example of a HC/GM combo. I can tell he was really successful after John Elway.

 

You are flat out missing the point yet again. My point is, every time the Colts defense was matched up against an elite-level QB, they lost. Manning carved them up. Rothlisberger did. Romo did. Heck, even Nick Foles dropped 331 passing yards. The reason's for that are agreeable but don't ignore the fact that the Colts struggled mightily last year against top-tier QB's.

 

You keep misunderstanding what I've said. Reggie Wayne was a good security blanket for Luck and was force-fed to make his numbers look inflated. People around the league know that Reggie wasn't the game-breaker he once was at that point. Meanwhile, it's common knowledge that Calvin Johnson is one of the top game-breaking WR's in the game. Having one good game against Green Bay doesn't change the body of work. I love Reggie and all the things he's done in a Colts uniform, but at that point in his career, it was clear he wasn't the same Reggie of old, which has been my point all along. There's a major difference between a security blanket and a game-breaker. If you can't figure that out, then I don't know what to tell you.

 

Whatever you say. Doesn't change the fact that the Colts shouldn't exactly blow up what they are doing in hopes of getting someone "better" like Harbaugh.

Again, he took the Michigan job because

1. The Niners fired him

2. Michigan is a great job and also happens to be his alma mater

And he isn't making more money than he did with the Niners.

[Restored]

Again, he took the Michigan job because

1. The Niners fired him

2. Michigan is a great job and also happens to be his alma mater

And he isn't making more money than he did with the Niners.

 

1. Yes he was "fired" but my point was that his back and forth with management and players is what made that happen. Some people are led to believe that had he been willing to take less control, he could've worked something out with the 49ers. Oh and his relationships with players hurt as well: http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/09/29/deion-says-niners-players-want-harbaugh-out/

 

Yes and no. While his base salary is the same as it was with the 49ers, his compensation and incentive packages could still push his salary to $8 million annually: http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000451785/article/jim-harbaughs-salary-with-michigan-same-as-it-was-with-niners

[BOTT]

1. Yes he was "fired" but my point was that his back and forth with management and players is what made that happen. Some people are led to believe that had he been willing to take less control, he could've worked something out with the 49ers. Oh and his relationships with players hurt as well: http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/09/29/deion-says-niners-players-want-harbaugh-out/

 

Yes and no. While his base salary is the same as it was with the 49ers, his compensation and incentive packages could still push his salary to $8 million annually: http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000451785/article/jim-harbaughs-salary-with-michigan-same-as-it-was-with-niners

Deon Sanders? You can't be serious? Odd, that in the age of social media I havnt heard one player say anything negative about him.

It could....after a review given after a couple years. Nothing new there. He could have easily asked for more and received it.

if you don't like Harbaugh, fine, but you seem to be reaching for reasons to justify it.

[Restored]

Deon Sanders? You can't be serious? Odd, that in the age of social media I havnt heard one player say anything negative about him.

It could....after a review given after a couple years. Nothing new there. He could have easily asked for more and received it.

if you don't like Harbaugh, fine, but you seem to be reaching for reasons to justify it.

 

Players are for the most part not going to put their feelings about their coaches/team on social media for fear of reprimand or worse, termination. They will however talk to members of the media and former players that they trust. Sanders is one of the most respected former players among current players so what he is saying could have some truth to it.

 

One year. Either way, his potential earnings could go up above the 49ers. My overall point is, is that the Michigan is the better job.

 

Not in the least bit. I've already stated why I don't want him as a coach. All of which have been backed up by reasoning. If he had problems with management/players and will jump at the next greatest thing after 3-5 years, I'll pass.

[AntonMcG]

Players are for the most part not going to put their feelings about their coaches/team on social media for fear of reprimand or worse, termination. They will however talk to members of the media and former players that they trust. Sanders is one of the most respected former players among current players so what he is saying could have some truth to it.

 

One year. Either way, his potential earnings could go up above the 49ers. My overall point is, is that the Michigan is the better job.

 

Not in the least bit. I've already stated why I don't want him as a coach. All of which have been backed up by reasoning. If he had problems with management/players and will jump at the next greatest thing after 3-5 years, I'll pass.

 

Ha, you think it has, but it really hasn't. You just keeping harping on, making the same points, whilst ignoring the fact that your original point has been shown to be either flawed or wrong.

 

You say HC with personnel control doesn't work despite the last two Super Bowl winning HC's having personnel control, but who cares, you're still right.

 

You say Reggie Wayne wasn't elite in 2012 despite every metric (and game tape) showing that he was, but who cares, you're still right.

 

You'll keep doing this of course, in your vein attempt to 'win'. So, good luck with that.

[Restored]

Ha, you think it has, but it really hasn't. You just keeping harping on, making the same points, whilst ignoring the fact that your original point has been shown to be either flawed or wrong.

 

You say HC with personnel control doesn't work despite the last two Super Bowl winning HC's having personnel control, but who cares, you're still right.

 

You say Reggie Wayne wasn't elite in 2012 despite every metric (and game tape) showing that he was, but who cares, you're still right.

 

You'll keep doing this of course, in your vein attempt to 'win'. So, good luck with that.

 

Facts and points have needed to be reiterated multiple times for comprehension reasons apparently.

 

Keeping twisting words to fit your argument. I never said the HC-GM combo doesn't work at all. Just that the success from it happens less than a traditional Owner-GM-Coach system. But keep believing that exceptions to the rule break it. Dungy, Cowher, Gruden, Tomlin, Holmgren, Madden, Parcells (Giants run) and many others have won Super Bowl's with that system.

 

Keep believing that the Colts defense didn't mightily struggle against the game's top-tier QB's last year despite every metric (and game tape) showing different.

 

Keep believing that Reggie Wayne was an elite WR in 2012 when he wasn't. Go back and watch some of his film from 2006-2007 and tell me if you see the same elite-level WR that you saw in 2012.

 

I'll let you believe what you want to believe since you seem so bent on ignoring facts and reason.

[Superman]

Hi, I hope you don't mind. But I have copied and pasted your quote from the other thread that got locked given its descent into the abyss as I had wanted to respond it and the convo is more appropriate on this thread anyways. Here is your quote:

 

I think I get what you are saying but will next year determine if the Colts are heading toward the Pats success or the Falcons failure? You can look at the games and play the "what if" game all day as I am not sure the Pats would have beaten the Packers in the Super Bowl if they had beaten Seattle like they should have in the NFCCG but Pagano won two playoff games last year and took the team back to the conference title game where it had not been since 2009. I wonder if Irsay is not painting himself into a corner here because the odds are that the Colts don't got back to the AFCCG as it is hard to repeat as the last two teams standing but if the team looks better all season and more consistent, does he stay? I think this could be a catch 22.

 

A question for you - do you think Grigson is the one telling Irsay to move on from Pagano? I have a tough time believing this but with all the hub bub about their relationship I think it is begging the question.

 

Nah, I don't mind.

 

I would just like to again state that the Colts offered Pagano a one year extension. I don't think Irsay or Grigson are interested in moving on from Pagano. Aside from rumors in the mist, there's no indication that there's any problem between any of them, aside from maybe Irsay not liking 45-7. I think the rumors are nonsense.

 

So I don't think they're painting themselves into a corner at all. But after three years, one of which was inconclusive, I think they want to know that Pagano is the right man to coach a perennial contender. We know he's a good coach. But does he warrant a long term deal at top ten money? The Colts said 'let's see what happens in 2015, but here's a little security,' and Pagano said 'no thanks, I'll prove that I'm the man, and then you'll pay me what I believe I'm worth.' To me, it's more Pagano betting on himself than it is the Colts being unsure about him.

 

This is from an ESPN article about the Colts: 

The Colts' pass defense ranked third in Total QBR allowed in 2014 (39.3), but it fell apart when facing teams ranked in the top 10 in scoring last season. In six games against that caliber of competition (Denver, Philadelphia, New England, Dallas, Pittsburgh and Baltimore), the Colts allowed 7.9 yards per pass attempt, a 65.8 percent completion rate, a 21-to-5 touchdown-to-interception ratio and a 74.1 Total QBR.

 

That's the problem. That's where the team can/must be better, is against top competition. We were pretty good in 2013, slaying some giants, but not in 2014. Including the playoffs, we were 2-6 against those six opponents. New England, Dallas and Pittsburgh in particular were ugly outcomes. 

 

So is Pagano just a guy who can get a young, rebuilding team to overachieve, but always will falter against the big dogs? Or worse, will his message wear off and his team backslide after some bitter playoff put-outs? Or is his program for real, and his team truly ready to take a seat at the perennial contenders table?

 

I'm a Pagano fan, and I believe he can be "the guy," but the results have been inconclusive so far. So I understand Irsay's measured approach. I think it's the right way for now. And I understand Pagano's bolder approach, and don't blame him for it. I think it will all work out, and this is much ado about nothing.

[amfootball]

Nah, I don't mind.

 

I would just like to again state that the Colts offered Pagano a one year extension. I don't think Irsay or Grigson are interested in moving on from Pagano. Aside from rumors in the mist, there's no indication that there's any problem between any of them, aside from maybe Irsay not liking 45-7. I think the rumors are nonsense.

 

So I don't think they're painting themselves into a corner at all. But after three years, one of which was inconclusive, I think they want to know that Pagano is the right man to coach a perennial contender. We know he's a good coach. But does he warrant a long term deal at top ten money? The Colts said 'let's see what happens in 2015, but here's a little security,' and Pagano said 'no thanks, I'll prove that I'm the man, and then you'll pay me what I believe I'm worth.' To me, it's more Pagano betting on himself than it is the Colts being unsure about him.

 

This is from an ESPN article about the Colts: 

The Colts' pass defense ranked third in Total QBR allowed in 2014 (39.3), but it fell apart when facing teams ranked in the top 10 in scoring last season. In six games against that caliber of competition (Denver, Philadelphia, New England, Dallas, Pittsburgh and Baltimore), the Colts allowed 7.9 yards per pass attempt, a 65.8 percent completion rate, a 21-to-5 touchdown-to-interception ratio and a 74.1 Total QBR.

 

That's the problem. That's where the team can/must be better, is against top competition. We were pretty good in 2013, slaying some giants, but not in 2014. Including the playoffs, we were 2-6 against those six opponents. New England, Dallas and Pittsburgh in particular were ugly outcomes. 

 

So is Pagano just a guy who can get a young, rebuilding team to overachieve, but always will falter against the big dogs? Or worse, will his message wear off and his team backslide after some bitter playoff put-outs? Or is his program for real, and his team truly ready to take a seat at the perennial contenders table?

 

I'm a Pagano fan, and I believe he can be "the guy," but the results have been inconclusive so far. So I understand Irsay's measured approach. I think it's the right way for now. And I understand Pagano's bolder approach, and don't blame him for it. I think it will all work out, and this is much ado about nothing.

That is all sound reasoning and makes sense. The only caveat I would throw in here is Grigson. I am not sure Pagano has a top ten 10 team personnel wise to slay those big giants continually. This may be the chicken and the egg. Is it the coaching or the team? This is why I am wondering that if there is any riff is it Grigson telling Irsay that the team as currently constituted or will be constituted in 2015 should be a contender? This may be why Pagano is irritated if those reports are even true ... I have to admit this one seems hard to read.

[AntonMcG]

Facts and points have needed to be reiterated multiple times for comprehension reasons apparently.

 

Keeping twisting words to fit your argument. I never said the HC-GM combo doesn't work at all. Just that the success from it happens less than a traditional Owner-GM-Coach system. But keep believing that exceptions to the rule break it. Dungy, Cowher, Gruden, Tomlin, Holmgren, Madden, Parcells (Giants run) and many others have won Super Bowl's with that system.

 

Keep believing that the Colts defense didn't mightily struggle against the game's top-tier QB's last year despite every metric (and game tape) showing different.

 

Keep believing that Reggie Wayne was an elite WR in 2012 when he wasn't. Go back and watch some of his film from 2006-2007 and tell me if you see the same elite-level WR that you saw in 2012.

 

I'll let you believe what you want to believe since you seem so bent on ignoring facts and reason.

 

I don't think you know what an exception is, if both ways work, then there is no right or wrong way to go about it. And yeah, you said "When your coach starts being your GM, you have a problem." So you sort of did say it couldn't work.

 

As for the other stuff, yeah, I'll keep being right, and you keep being deluded.

 

Facts and reason? Good lord...

[Restored]

I don't think you know what an exception is, if both ways work, then there is no right or wrong way to go about it. And yeah, you said "When your coach starts being your GM, you have a problem." So you sort of did say it couldn't work.

 

As for the other stuff, yeah, I'll keep being right, and you keep being deluded.

 

Facts and reason? Good lord...

 

No. I didn't "sort of say" anything. You seem content with twisting words to fix an argument. I don't think you understand how an exception works. The general rule has always been that the Owner-GM-HC system is what produces success in the NFL. The EXCEPTION to this rule is coaches like Carroll and BB having success. How much success they individually have isn't relevant. What is relevant is how many coaches do what they do, which isn't many. Coaches that have that kind of role with a team usually end up leaving the team or getting fired when they clash with the GM/Owner. I'm sure you know all about that with Harbaugh by now.

 

Keep believing what you want to. It doesn't change the facts.

[AntonMcG]

No. I didn't "sort of say" anything. You seem content with twisting words to fix an argument. I don't think you understand how an exception works. The general rule has always been that the Owner-GM-HC system is what produces success in the NFL. The EXCEPTION to this rule is coaches like Carroll and BB having success. How much success they individually have isn't relevant. What is relevant is how many coaches do what they do, which isn't many. Coaches that have that kind of role with a team usually end up leaving the team or getting fired when they clash with the GM/Owner. I'm sure you know all about that with Harbaugh by now.

 

Keep believing what you want to. It doesn't change the facts.

 

Correction, you don't know what an exception, or a fact, is. 

[Douzer]

Sources: Make or Break Year for HC Chuck Pagano = NONSENSE

[ÅÐØNϧ 1]

Nah, I don't mind.

 

I would just like to again state that the Colts offered Pagano a one year extension. I don't think Irsay or Grigson are interested in moving on from Pagano. Aside from rumors in the mist, there's no indication that there's any problem between any of them, aside from maybe Irsay not liking 45-7. I think the rumors are nonsense.

 

So I don't think they're painting themselves into a corner at all. But after three years, one of which was inconclusive, I think they want to know that Pagano is the right man to coach a perennial contender. We know he's a good coach. But does he warrant a long term deal at top ten money? The Colts said 'let's see what happens in 2015, but here's a little security,' and Pagano said 'no thanks, I'll prove that I'm the man, and then you'll pay me what I believe I'm worth.' To me, it's more Pagano betting on himself than it is the Colts being unsure about him.

 

This is from an ESPN article about the Colts: 

The Colts' pass defense ranked third in Total QBR allowed in 2014 (39.3), but it fell apart when facing teams ranked in the top 10 in scoring last season. In six games against that caliber of competition (Denver, Philadelphia, New England, Dallas, Pittsburgh and Baltimore), the Colts allowed 7.9 yards per pass attempt, a 65.8 percent completion rate, a 21-to-5 touchdown-to-interception ratio and a 74.1 Total QBR.

 

That's the problem. That's where the team can/must be better, is against top competition. We were pretty good in 2013, slaying some giants, but not in 2014. Including the playoffs, we were 2-6 against those six opponents. New England, Dallas and Pittsburgh in particular were ugly outcomes. 

 

So is Pagano just a guy who can get a young, rebuilding team to overachieve, but always will falter against the big dogs? Or worse, will his message wear off and his team backslide after some bitter playoff put-outs? Or is his program for real, and his team truly ready to take a seat at the perennial contenders table?

 

I'm a Pagano fan, and I believe he can be "the guy," but the results have been inconclusive so far. So I understand Irsay's measured approach. I think it's the right way for now. And I understand Pagano's bolder approach, and don't blame him for it. I think it will all work out, and this is much ado about nothing.

 

The Colts 3 seasons in to the Andrew Luck era have improved each season getting  us ever closer to a possible Superbowl berth but the  run D  sucks  , Pagano was brought here just like Dungy to improve the defense & get the Colts to the big show if he gets this team over the hump & we start taking down the top dogs he will deserve a new contract  .

 

The Coach has some new toys on D hopefully we all will enjoy a pleasant surprise this next Colts season ..

[Superman]

The Colts 3 seasons in to the Andrew Luck era have improved each season getting  us ever closer to a possible Superbowl berth but the  run D  sucks  , Pagano was brought here just like Dungy to improve the defense & get the Colts to the big show if he gets this team over the hump & we start taking down the top dogs he will deserve a new contract  .

 

The Coach has some new toys on D hopefully we all will enjoy a pleasant surprise this next Colts season ..

 

The run defense only sucks against the Patriots. And Pagano was hired to coach the entire team, not just the defense. He deserves a new contract now, and was offered one. The question is whether he deserves a significant pay raise.

 

We'll see what happens in 2015. I don't think it's about getting to the Super Bowl. I think it's about being more consistently on a weekly basis, developing the weak spots of the team, and being more competitive against top competition. 

 

As far as demanding higher pay, among the ten highest paid coaches in the NFL, you'll find names like Jeff Fisher, Andy Reid and Chip Kelly. Kelly had a huge market, and the Eagles practically had to beg him to leave Oregon, so that explains that. But Fisher and Reid haven't been close to a SB in over a decade. Reid is .500 over the last four seasons, and hasn't won a playoff game since 2008. Fisher is 34-45-1 in his last five years, hasn't been in the playoffs since 2008, and hasn't won a playoff game since 2003. Fisher has five total playoff wins in over 19 years as a head coach.

 

Pagano has as many playoff wins in three seasons as Jeff Fisher and Andy Reid combined since 2004.

 

Guys #11-15 are Jason Garrett (after 2014), Bruce Arians (after 2014), Jay Gruden, Bill O'Brien and Lovie Smith. In the past three seasons, Pagano has three times as many playoff wins as those five guys combined have in the past four seasons. They all make $500K more than Pagano.

 

#16 is the ghost of John Fox's Denver contract, which was $500K more than Pagano. Fox is making $250K less than Pagano in Chicago.

 

So while I don't think Pagano's pay is unfair, the argument can be made that Pagano could command top ten money right now. The "modest" pay increase that he was offered very well could have put him in that Jason Garrett category.

[NewColtsFan]

 

@greggrosenthal  22s22 seconds ago

Pagano reminds me a little of Brian Billick in Baltimore. Lots of wins but “his” side of the ball never gets better.

 

 

Of course, you're comparing Brian Billick who had a decent run at Baltimore with Pagano who has had all of three years with the Colts.     Not exactly an apples to apples comparison.

 

Plus,  has he had a lot of talent to work with on "his" side of the ball?

 

We both know that answer.....    He and Manusky are doing it with smoke and mirrors and duct tape....

[Dustin]

 

Plus,  has he had a lot of talent to work with on "his" side of the ball?

 

 

Of course he does. "GM of the year" Ryan Grigson has supplied a ton of talent.

[NewColtsFan]

Of course he does. "GM of the year" Ryan Grigson has supplied a ton of talent.

 

You forgot your sarcasm emoticon!     

 

That said,  we're just starting year four...   and you compared things with Billick who had many more years than that...

[Dustin]

You forgot your sarcasm emoticon!     

 

That said,  we're just starting year four...   and you compared things with Billick who had many more years than that...

 

Well no, Greg Rosenthal did. 

[NewColtsFan]

Well no, Greg Rosenthal did. 

 

 

OK....   I don't think I know who Greg Rosenthal is and why he's important to this issue.....

 

Besides,  what's your beef with Grigson winning the GM of the Year for 2012?

 

It's only a 1-year award.    It's not like he's been hailed as the best GM every year.....

[Dustin]

OK....   I don't think I know who Greg Rosenthal is and why he's important to this issue.....

 

you replied to his quote that I linked.

 

 

Besides,  what's your beef with Grigson winning the GM of the Year for 2012?

 

 

I don't have a beef with him winning GM of the year in 2012. 

[NewColtsFan]

you replied to his quote that I linked.

 

 

 

I don't have a beef with him winning GM of the year in 2012. 

 

Right.

 

Which is why you posted it in your response to me....   you were mocking it.

 

I don't know why you're denying it now....   other than the fact that you don't much like Grigson that is....

[John Dee]

I guarantee you all Grigs is getting a HARD look too.    If he screws up another TOP pick.     Luck was a given, but his next 2 out of 3?   TR, and Werner?  Mew is a keeper....      BUT  Indy has been down this road before letting a QB CARRY us.    I think Irsay wants to see improvement.    And against the REALLY good teams this team has REGRESSED. 

 

I don't blame Jim on bit for taking a "wait and see approach" ..   This team has the QB, that is HALF the battle now they need a coach and GM who can maximize the QB's talents, and help on D.  

[wig]

I don't think there's anyone looking to give Pagano a pass. But he was brought in to coach the entire team, not just the defense. And when you look at the draft picks that have been spent on offense vs. defense, and you look at the quality of the free agents that have been signed, there are obvious reasons why the offense is better than the defense so far.

I can think of a lot more defensive players in free agency than offense, but the drafts have been very offensive heavy and it shows. What, one pick in the first three rounds on defense and it happened to be subpar. I'm hoping that sample size grows drastically. Soon.

[TKnight24]

I can think of a lot more defensive players in free agency than offense, but the drafts have been very offensive heavy and it shows. What, one pick in the first three rounds on defense and it happened to be subpar. I'm hoping that sample size grows drastically. Soon.

Come 4 weeks from today, it better be heavy defense. Unless there's some great OL or RB that's completely dropped to like the 3rd that we just can't pass on

[southwest1]

GIVE ME HARBUAGH OR GIVE ME DEATH

I don't want Jim Harbaugh because he's a crybaby when it comes to referee penalties. John Harbaugh would be awesome if Ravens management is ever foolish enough to cut him loose that is. 

 

What is the judging stick for Pagano? He just made the AFCCG. Does he have to win the SB to keep his job? That seems extreme.

Good question AMF. Is it stuffing the run & actually running well against good teams to create more balance on offense? I'd love to know what Jim Irsay's expectations are this season. 

 

I think that's a lazy argument.

What's lazy exactly? Beating the Patriots? 

 

I think Pagano was hired to coach the entire football team, not just the defense. And the defense isn't as good as anyone would like, but it doesn't stink. That's a gross over-exaggeration.

 

And I think people like to focus on the bad games to the exclusion of the good games. In 2013, we beat SF, Seattle, Denver, KC twice (had the best record in the conference at the time), etc. This year, we shut out the Bengals, beat the Ravens, beat the Broncos in Denver... Yeah, there's been some bad games, but there's been some good games, too, against top competition.

I agree. I think some fans forget who INDY won against under Pagano's tenure. Chuck needs to be aggressive in holding guys accountable more for a lack of concentration or poor execution I will admit that. I think people need to remember Jim Caldwell who was god awful at making game adjustments, but Pagano isn't Caldwell 2.0 that's just crazy as some fans seem to be implying IMO. 

[BOTT]

I don't want Jim Harbaugh because he's a crybaby when it comes to referee penalties. John Harbaugh would be awesome if Ravens management is ever foolish enough to cut him loose that is. 

 

Good question AMF. Is it stuffing the run & actually running well against good teams to create more balance on offense? I'd love to know what Jim Irsay's expectations are this season. 

 

What's lazy exactly? Beating the Patriots? 

 

I agree. I think some fans forget who INDY won against under Pagano's tenure. Chuck needs to be aggressive in holding guys accountable more for a lack of concentration or poor execution I will admit that. I think people need to remember Jim Caldwell who was god awful at making game adjustments, but Pagano isn't Caldwell 2.0 that's just crazy as some fans seem to be implying IMO.

It's lazy implying Pagano should keep his job simply because they made the AFC championship game.

[ColtRider]

It's lazy implying Pagano should keep his job simply because they made the AFC championship game.

Wait a minute here. "SIMPLY"? ... because they made the AFC championship game" Okay, BOTT, please clarify this before I can respond without effigy. Seriously.

[BOTT]

Wait a minute here. "SIMPLY"? ... because they made the AFC championship game" Okay, BOTT, please clarify this before I can respond without effigy. Seriously.

What's to clarify? Just because the Colts made the championship game doesn't means he's a good coach....just as losing in the first round doesn't make you a bad coach.

[ColtRider]

What's to clarify? Just because the Colts made the championship game doesn't means he's a good coach....just as losing in the first round doesn't make you a bad coach.

Okay, I think I get what you're trying to say. But for more edification, what exactly does make a good or bad coach in your opinion?

[BOTT]

Okay, I think I get what you're trying to say. But for more edification, what exactly does make a good or bad coach in your opinion?

Not really qualified to say. Unless the coach has a long track record of success fans and the media are just guessing.

[ColtRider]

Not really qualified to say. Unless the coach has a long track record of success fans and the media are just guessing.

Well, we agree to disagree, then. I'm with you in your first 15 words. However, it's the last 7 that we differ on. I believe there are quite a few NFL fans and media that could not only coach, but have good success at it given the shot. Many do not choose it, nor want to IMO for various reasons. But, there are good - to - potentially great coaches out there amongst the masses. Fans and media alike. Been around the NFL, it's fans and media too long to "not" recognize that.

[BOTT]

Well, we agree to disagree, then. I'm with you in your first 15 words. However, it's the last 7 that we differ on. I believe there are quite a few NFL fans and media that could not only coach, but have good success at it given the shot. Many do not choose it, nor want to IMO for various reasons. But, there are good - to - potentially great coaches out there amongst the masses. Fans and media alike. Been around the NFL, it's fans and media too long to "not" recognize that.

Lol...you're nuts.

[ColtRider]

Now .. Now .. Sticks and stones!

[southwest1]

It's lazy implying Pagano should keep his job simply because they made the AFC championship game.

Thanks for the clarification BOTT. I wasn't challenging you BTW. I just wanted to know what you meant & you told me so, I'm good. 

 

I will say this though. With the money, Irsay spent this offseason on Trent Cole, Frank Gore, & Andre Johnson expectations will be higher with a smaller margin for error or a premature playoff exit. 

 

I think Chuck will be back, but I wanna see Pagano get in player's faces a little more when the mess up. Players need to know the stakes go up for every guy on INDY's roster now. It's time to take the next step & play in another SB. I know February is awhile away yet, but intense pressure if channeled correctly is very potent & prudent right now. 

 

Discipling players is hard I know because some guys need to be yelled at to wake up & think clearly where other guys clear the cobwebs best by saying "Look, we've been over this man. Trust your eyes & your film study & your hands & your feet will follow." 

 

I prefer to be disciplined behind closed doors privately, but if the boss let's everyone know he's just becoming more strict to let us know he's just doing it to make the whole unit gel faster, I can pretty much be chewed out anywhere because we are all in the same boat. No exceptions veteran or rookie alike.