AR vs Young vs Stroud vs Levis

[Dingus McGirt]

3 minutes ago, Solid84 said:

He’s had one “real” injury - his shoulder. I think if you counted them up there’d be 50 players across the league who’s had concussions this season and we’re just over half-way. 
 

Pocket passers get injured too. Frequently. I think it’s way too early to call him injury prone or say he’s made of glass as some have. 

This.  His real injury occurred when his elbow was on the LOS’ unforgiving turf and the defender piled onto his shoulder.  “Made of glass?”  Nope.

[husker61]

4 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

When have I ever said Levis sucks or has played badly? Up until yesterday I haven't. I think it is a fair assessment to say he played bad yesterday. I said he played average at Pitt, that is far from saying he sucked, and you ripped my opinion to shreds. Why haven't you given me credit for saying Levis played great at Atlanta which I posted or me saying Stroud is the best so far out of the rookies? When it comes to me, you seem to nitpick every little negative thing I say about a player that you may like, or thinks will be good. When it comes to AR, when other posters say he is made of glass or won't be a franchise QB, I have never seen you once question them?? Funny. What good does it do to critique, if we just sit here and say, yeah so and so was great this week when he actually wasn't? The only thing I have ever said about AR when compared to Levis is, I think he has a higher ceiling and I wanted AR in the draft, how is that bashing Levis?

very few people here are saying Richardson is going to be a bust. The small sample size does indicate he has a propensity to get hurt. Can that change, yes. Can it continue, yes. Nobody knows! That’s all people are saying, he is mostly an incomplete on what he will become as a nfl qb. That isn’t bashing!! I haven’t seen one post hoping he fails, that’s just in the some posters heads when attacking any thing negative regarding him. 
 

as to Levis, I saw the Steelers game and was completely impressed with everything he did. I didn’t see the first game, but everything I saw said he did very good. I didn’t see the last game, if it’s on nfl network I will watch it, if not it will be hard to comment on how he played. You seem to think a stat line tells the whole story, it doesn’t for me. Anyone that grades a player on some stat lines is meaningless to me. I have said this about other positions many times. 

[husker61]

Some have brought up luck’s completion %. That had a lot to do with him wanting to throw the deep ball a lot, probably because he had a great arm. Qb’s that throw shorter passes will always have a higher completion %. 
 

as I continue to say, stats can be very misleading!

[ColtV]

3 hours ago, PRnum1 said:

I'll have to fess up and admit that was me.

 

I have a big plate of crow to eat....

 

I had plenty of reservations about Stroud(and as a Buckeye I saw every snap he took). My big concerns were 1) were his numbers inflated due to having the best receiving corps in school history? 2) with the exception of the Georgia game, he NEVER ran. It was almost a point of refusing to run, and the mobility he has shown in the NFL game is stunning and a big positive for Houston. 

[NFLfan]

7 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I can say the same thing about Will Levis. "I don't understand how people are so convinced that" Levis "is the next franchise QB of the" Titans; "nothing suggests it"

 

Then when I talk bad about Will Levis I get thrown under a bus. The same people don't say crap to the posters that say AR is made of glass and they would have never drafted him. Hypocrites. It's a Colts site, throw those same people under the bus. 

 

I think one poster pointed that out yesterday. The poster said that since AR went down, this has become a place to disparage the Colts QB.

 

Peoples' minds are made up until they are proved wrong. I would not argue with them because their opinions won't change. While giving others the benefit of the doubt, they won't do the same for AR.

 

Btw, CJ Stroud is playing undeniably great, week in and week out. The week before he threw 5 TDs against the same Bucs that nearly shut out the Titans yesterday.

[ADnum1]

4 minutes ago, NFLfan said:

 

I think one poster pointed that out yesterday. The poster said that since AR went down, this has become a place to disparage the Colts QB.

 

Peoples' minds are made up until they are proved wrong. I would not argue with them because their opinions won't change. While giving others the benefit of the doubt, they won't do the same for AR.

 

Btw, CJ Stroud is playing undeniably great, week in and week out. The week before he threw 5 TDs against the same Bucs that nearly shut out the Titans yesterday.

Let's not forget Josh Dobbs.

 

He looked fantastic yesterday.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

4 minutes ago, NFLfan said:

 

I think one poster pointed that out yesterday. The poster said that since AR went down, this has become a place to disparage the Colts QB.

 

Peoples' minds are made up until they are proved wrong. I would not argue with them because their opinions won't change. While giving others the benefit of the doubt, they won't do the same for AR.

 

Btw, CJ Stroud is playing undeniably great, week in and week out. The week before he threw 5 TDs against the same Bucs that nearly shut out the Titans yesterday.

I think it’s fine to talk about how well stroud is playing because it’s unbelievable. But at the same time as talking how good he is people seem to have to mention in the same breath something negative about Richardson. Can we not talk how good stroud is whole not diminishing Richardson at the same time. Richardson isn’t playing so it’s kind of hard to compare when we have no clue hoe he would of played.

[cdgacoltsfan]

10 minutes ago, PRnum1 said:

Let's not forget Josh Dobbs.

 

He looked fantastic yesterday.

I think this thread is about comparing this year's rookie QBs. Josh Dobbs has been in the league since 2017.

[NFLfan]

39 minutes ago, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

I think it’s fine to talk about how well stroud is playing because it’s unbelievable. But at the same time as talking how good he is people seem to have to mention in the same breath something negative about Richardson. Can we not talk how good stroud is whole not diminishing Richardson at the same time. Richardson isn’t playing so it’s kind of hard to compare when we have no clue hoe he would of played.

 

I agree with you 100%.

[NFLfan]

42 minutes ago, PRnum1 said:

Let's not forget Josh Dobbs.

 

He looked fantastic yesterday.

 

He is not one of the many rookies that have started this year, but I appreciate the compliment.

[ADnum1]

Meanwhile, AR is ahead on his rehab !!

 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

3 minutes ago, PRnum1 said:

Meanwhile, AR is ahead on his rehab !!

 

Did you read something that said this.

[DougDew]

3 hours ago, husker61 said:

very few people here are saying Richardson is going to be a bust. The small sample size does indicate he has a propensity to get hurt. Can that change, yes. Can it continue, yes. Nobody knows! That’s all people are saying, he is mostly an incomplete on what he will become as a nfl qb. That isn’t bashing!! I haven’t seen one post hoping he fails, that’s just in the some posters heads when attacking any thing negative regarding him. 
 

as to Levis, I saw the Steelers game and was completely impressed with everything he did. I didn’t see the first game, but everything I saw said he did very good. I didn’t see the last game, if it’s on nfl network I will watch it, if not it will be hard to comment on how he played. You seem to think a stat line tells the whole story, it doesn’t for me. Anyone that grades a player on some stat lines is meaningless to me. I have said this about other positions many times. 

TENs offense still runs through Derrick Henry, so looking at QB stats really should be in a different universe than a team that expects the QB to be a superhero by keeping the ball in the QBs hands to make a play every down.  Its just functions differently at its root than most 2023 NFL offenses.

[husker61]

On 11/12/2023 at 4:07 PM, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Will Levis 19-39, 199 Yards, 0 TD's/1 INT. Titans score 6 points. Great game. 

the line was a mess with multiple backups, 21 pressures, 6 hits, 4 sacks, 5 dropped passes. The line wasn’t good for Henry ether, I think 2ypc. I think he has lucks mentality of throwing down field so he may never be a top % passer. You really aren’t trying to be fair like you said you are.

 

like I continue to say, it’s not stats that give the true picture of how a player performed.

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/titans/news/tennessee-titans-mike-vrabel-will-levis-offensive-line-concerns

[2006Coltsbestever]

7 hours ago, Tsarquise said:

I wasn't ruling him out, I have only stated that: SO FAR, it doesn't look good, and there really isn't anything to suggest he is going to be a great passer. Of course it is super early and he is very young, so he could absolutely improve, and I'm a Colts fan, so I hope he is the best player of all time. I just don't quite understand  how so many talk as if we have a sure thing QB. 

 

Him playing only 16 games of football is not a good thing. It is only more reason not to trust that he is the answer; It doesn't make me want to give him the benefit of the doubt. He is in the NFL; most QBs drafted high have a good amount of experience.  If AR was an accomplished college QB it would be easier to give them the benefit of the doubt. 

 

I never said he has to be the greatest passer of all time, but I know you were being facetious. 

 

AR doesn't just win. He lost both games he started. And I don't think he was "just winning" in college either. (Could be wrong). Of course if he just wins, then it wouldn't matter, but that's not the case, cause teams that just win usually have elite passers. 

 

Andrew Luck also had things to improve upon, one of which was his completion percentage. 

 

But like I asked before, if you had a choice between a pocket passer and a running QB with the number 1 pick, which would you choose? 

AR is actually 2-2 as a starter. He gets credit for the wins over Houston and Tennessee. He started and the Colts had the lead when he left both games. 2 games he lost, we were in both, we had the lead over Jacks in the 4th, and lost to the Rams in OT.

[NFLfan]

4 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

AR is actually 2-2 as a starter. He gets credit for the wins over Houston and Tennessee. He started and the Colts had the lead when he left both games. 2 games he lost, we were in both, we had the lead over Jacks in the 4th, and lost to the Rams in OT.

 

 

True but

 

 

The December 3rd game between the Colts @ Titans will be fun. You will get a first hand look at Levis. The following week, the Titans play on MNF. Then, on Dec. 17th and Dec. 31st, Titans face the Texans. Colts play the Texans at home to end the season. You get to see Stroud.

 

[Never_Quit]

Stroud is playing out of his mind.

 

I'm not even mad. I like watching good player play football. That said, this dude is going to be a problem for us for a long time

[newjagscity]

CJ Stroud is obviously the best QB in the division at the moment. And it isn't close.  Texans may win the AFC South outright.  Levis isn't it. He's one dimensional in an Era that needs QB mobility.  Plus the Titans will ruin him.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

Reich is taking play calling duties back lol.

[Colt.45]

Just now, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

Reich is taking play calling duties back lol.

The owner also had some weird comments today...seems he wished he had Stroud now. Madness. I thought Jim Irsay was the crazy one in this league lol

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

4 minutes ago, Colt.45 said:

The owner also had some weird comments today...seems he wished he had Stroud now. Madness. I thought Jim Irsay was the crazy one in this league lol

Actually that was From back April after the draft. Not sure why Dov dug that up now.

[a06cc]

On 11/12/2023 at 2:33 PM, dw49 said:

 

Head bounced off the turf pretty hard and the guy misses a game. Brutal bad tackle where his shoulder took the brunt of Landry's weight . You now call him Mr Glass ? That and then declare that a 180Lb bust is more durable ? That post should get an award.

Who playing next week? Our whole defense landed on that bust and he will be playing another game. Richardson is made of glass until proven otherwise. 

[BlackTiger]

On 11/13/2023 at 2:02 PM, ColtV said:

. It was almost a point of refusing to run

That was probably a career decision and not due to a lack of ability. He was a top pick anyway so its not like he needed to show more in college.  I guess he could have been the first pick but that would mean landing with a worse team too

[DougDew]

On 11/13/2023 at 7:00 PM, 2006Coltsbestever said:

AR is actually 2-2 as a starter. He gets credit for the wins over Houston and Tennessee. He started and the Colts had the lead when he left both games. 2 games he lost, we were in both, we had the lead over Jacks in the 4th, and lost to the Rams in OT.

 

On 11/13/2023 at 7:35 PM, NFLfan said:

 

 

True but

 

 

The December 3rd game between the Colts @ Titans will be fun. You will get a first hand look at Levis. The following week, the Titans play on MNF. Then, on Dec. 17th and Dec. 31st, Titans face the Texans. Colts play the Texans at home to end the season. You get to see Stroud.

 

Who gives AR credit for the two wins?  And what is their basis for that conclusion? 

 

Please don't confuse an opinion made by the judgement of the credentialed class with something that's an actual "fact"'.  Then tell us we don't listen to facts.  We are all allowed to make stand alone judgements about if he deserve the "win" or not (which is a stupid stat anyway because its a team game) and don't need to adopt some groups' definition of a win.  

 

As far as being fair to Levis, he has an offense that does not run through the QB, but runs through the RB.  Its not really sincere to have their offense slog through 3.5 quarters of Henry being stuffed, keeping the game close...then telling Levis to "go win the game in the last 6 minutes".  Its a different bucket of stats than a Stroud or Mahomes who has an offense that uses the QB to attack the field from the opening kickoff.  IMO, we have to watch each QB play to be informed.

[BlackTiger]

24 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Who gives AR credit for the two wins?  And what is their basis for that conclusion? 

I do, he scored TDs that other qbs wouldnt get and had us in the lead when he went out.

 

I know you dont like "off structure" plays, but he was winning in spite of  what you like or dont like.

 

He proved he can beat defenses to the edge and score man.   I even said i would prefer a more conventional qb myself but he was winning with his legs until he went out.

[DougDew]

15 minutes ago, BlackTiger said:

I do, he scored TDs that other qbs wouldnt get and had us in the lead when he went out.

 

I know you dont like "off structure" plays, but he was winning in spite of  what you like or dont like.

 

He proved he can beat defenses to the edge and score man.   I even said i would prefer a more conventional qb myself but he was winning with his legs until he went out.

I don't think that seeing him score a TD that our other QB wouldn't score means that he won us the game in the second quarter.

 

But I wouldn't debate what the criteria should be for crediting QBs with a "win" because I think the whole concept of measuring QBs by their teams W/L record is a bit weird.  I mean, if a LG is so good he's worth the 6th pick in the draft and a $20M contract when he's hurt, why not measure Nelson's performance as a LG by his W/L record?  What is JT's W/L record...he just got a new contract.  What's Pitt's W/L record...is he a good WR or not?

 

I think PFF grades are probably a better way to measure individual football players play.  Yes, they are based on judgement, but the criteria seems to have some tradition to it and is handed down to new generations.  Having said that, I have no idea what the PFF grades are for the 4 QBs we're talking about, or Minshew for that matter.

[BlackTiger]

3 minutes ago, DougDew said:

I mean, if a LG is so good he's worth the 6th pick in the draft and a $20M contract when he's hurt, why not measure Nelson's performance as a LG by his W/L record?  (Because a LG has little impact on the game?  Shhh.  don't say that here.)  What is JT's W/L record...he just got a new contract.  What's Pitt's W/L record...is he a good WR or not?

 

I was in favor of drafting QN but wanted to see him at LT.  I dont like that they gave so much to a guard either ftr.

 

He said he was willing to move to tackle during the draft process as well but backed away from that stance when he realized the colts wont make him do it.

[RollerColt]

1 minute ago, BlackTiger said:

 

I was in favor of drafting QN but wanted to see him at LT.  I dont like that they gave so much to a guard either ftr.

 

He said he was willing to move to tackle during the draft process as well but backed away from that stance when he realized the colts wont make him do it.

Hindsight is just that… 

 

When Nelson was drafted, we already had our LT. We also still had Luck. No one could have predicted what would happen just a year later… 

[BlackTiger]

4 minutes ago, RollerColt said:

When Nelson was drafted, we already had our LT. We also still had Luck. No one could have predicted what would happen just a year later… 

Personally i dont believe in drafting a guard that high.  He was a great player in college but a lg just isnt worth that to me.  He did play LT in high school and would have at ND too if they didnt already have a tackle

 

Just my opinion but if he had to be a lg i would have done something else.  He said he was open to playing LT too.

[GoColts8818]

4 minutes ago, RollerColt said:

Hindsight is just that… 

 

When Nelson was drafted, we already had our LT. We also still had Luck. No one could have predicted what would happen just a year later… 

Rule 101 of Ballard bashing you must pretend he can see the future in all situations.

[DougDew]

5 minutes ago, BlackTiger said:

 

I was in favor of drafting QN but wanted to see him at LT.  I dont like that they gave so much to a guard either ftr.

 

He said he was willing to move to tackle during the draft process as well but backed away from that stance when he realized the colts wont make him do it.

I just mentioned QN to show my broader point.  JT is supposed to be an impact player.  So is Pitt.  So is our EDGE and so is Defo.  We just never talk about their W/L records when we talk about how good of a player or not they are.   

 

The W/L record for individual football players rings hollow to me.

[BlackTiger]

1 minute ago, GoColts8818 said:

Rule 101 of Ballard bashing you must pretend he can see the future in all situations.

I could take or leave CB at this point.  Crazy mind blowing thought for you to consider, he could have started at guard and moved to LT when AC retired...

 

He was open to it and they didnt give it enough of a chance.  He was an elite lt in high school and would have played it at ND if they didnt already have one.  It was worth a try before giving so much to a guard 

[RollerColt]

7 minutes ago, DougDew said:

I just mentioned QN to show my broader point.  JT is supposed to be an impact player.  So is Pitt.  So is our EDGE and so is Defo.  We just never talk about their W/L records when we talk about how good of a player or not they are.   

 

The W/L record for individual football players rings hollow to me.

I think that’s a fair way to assess an individual on their merits. We can see Barry Sanders and Calvin Johnson as stellar players despite their respective teams not playing to the same caliber…

[BlackTiger]

Anyone else ever think back and realize we could have drafted Josh Allen or Lamar months before Luck retired?  Kind of a pointless but i always had a feeling Luck would retire early, by 35 or so.

 

Its not that i knew he was going to leave when he did but the timing was awful, we could have been set for a while with Josh Allen if Luck didnt stall as much as he did.  Instead we have a guard

[IinD]

1 hour ago, GoColts8818 said:

Rule 101 of Ballard bashing you must pretend he can see the future in all situations.

So true.

Our fan base/board is great for laughs.

 

We could earn the #1 pick and the overall consensus best player ever in history could bust and you know for a fact there'd be posters here saying 'stupid pick, should've traded out of the #1 pick'.

 

All the while this QB could've passed for 85,000 yards with 250 TD's in 3 years of college and they wouldn't have hypothetically picked them... Lol

[ColtV]

2 hours ago, BlackTiger said:

That was probably a career decision and not due to a lack of ability. He was a top pick anyway so its not like he needed to show more in college.  I guess he could have been the first pick but that would mean landing with a worse team too

That would've been wildly concerning if that's the case. His running could've been the difference in every OSU loss with the exception of Georgia in games he started. 

 

I think it's more likely the fault is with Ryan Day in this scenario. 

[OLD FAN MAN]

On 11/13/2023 at 7:53 PM, Never_Quit said:

Stroud is playing out of his mind.

 

I'm not even mad. I like watching good player play football. That said, this dude is going to be a problem for us for a long time

nick caserio will probably be gm of the year. in 2 years he has filled the texans roster with elite talent that will probably dominate the afc south for years to come behind stroud. meanwhile year 7 of ballards delayed gratification. was nick  the reason the pats had elite talent during the years that he was there?

[NFLfan]

34 minutes ago, IinD said:

So true.

Our fan base/board is great for laughs.

 

We could earn the #1 pick and the overall consensus best player ever in history could bust and you know for a fact there'd be posters here saying 'stupid pick, should've traded out of the #1 pick'.

 

All the while this QB could've passed for 85,000 yards with 250 TD's in 3 years of college and they wouldn't have hypothetically picked them... Lol

 

I agree.

[NFLfan]

@RollerColt what @GoColts8818  wrote above about fans criticizing Ballard (assuming he can predict the future) brings to mind one of the first drafts that I followed. Your dad's Bengals selected college star RB Kijana Carter. Everyone thought he was the best player that year. But then he suffered an injury and his career ended. I always thought how could any GM predict that he would suffer such an injury which would end his career. You can't blame the GM. Carter was the best player in the draft at the time.

 

Anyway, Ballard has done what he thought was best for the team. AR will be fine. He is two to three years younger than most of the rookie QBs. With JT on the team next year, AR won't have to shoulder the responsibility for most of the offense, no pun intended.

[RollerColt]

35 minutes ago, NFLfan said:

@RollerColt what @GoColts8818  wrote above about fans criticizing Ballard (assuming he can predict the future) brings to mind one of the first drafts that I followed. Your dad's Bengals selected college star RB Kijana Carter. Everyone thought he was the best player that year. But then he suffered an injury and his career ended. I always thought how could any GM predict that he would suffer such an injury which would end his career. You can't blame the GM. Carter was the best player in the draft at the time.

 

Anyway, Ballard has done what he thought was best for the team. AR will be fine. He is two to three years younger than most of the rookie QBs. With JT on the team next year, AR won't have to shoulder the responsibility for most of the offense, no pun intended.

And, Ballard has chosen players that his head coaches wanted. Yes the scouts and Chris played the most significant role, but he chose players that the coaches asked for. 
 

The successes and shortcomings of the Colts are more complicated than it all being one singularity. But, it’s far easier to place blame on one thing, than to admit it was the entire organization. 
 

GMs are only as successful as their coaches and players are. It’s a symbiotic relationship.