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Poll: The Kenny Moore Situation


Poll: The Kenny Moore Situation  

80 members have voted

  1. 1. Is Kenny an elite (top 5) "slot CB" / NB?

  2. 2. Is Kenny an elite CB in general inside AND outside (he was graded 37th best CB in 2022)

  3. 3. Kenny is still among the top paid NBs in the league, but 27th highest paid overall for all CBs. Should he get a raise with 2 years left on his contract?

  4. 4. Kenny said he wants to be seen as an "elite CB", not elite NB. "Elite CBs" are getting $20M. If he ask for that, what would you do?

    • Give him "elite CB" pay ($20M)
      0
    • Offer him top 10 CB pay of $17M
      0
    • Offer him top 15ish CB pay of $13.5Mish
    • Give him a small raise of a couple million to get him back in the top 20, and still top paid for slot/NB.
    • Tell him he needs to at least play out this season, and we'll negotiate early off season (sitting if necessary)
    • Give him permission to seek a trade, with the assumption that we will require equitable value to what he is seeking from Indy or a new team
  5. 5. What is your basic feeling on the title of CB vs NB...

    • Outside CBs are more valuable, NBs are easier to find (a lot of teams use 3rd CB or 3rd S)
    • They are the same, and should be paid the same

  • Please sign in or register to vote in this poll.
  • Poll closes on 07/14/2022 at 07:11 AM

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1 hour ago, csmopar said:

Really? I do believe the moment they announced this that I said they’d miss the playoffs and a few players would suddenly get big egos…. Both have happened


Seriously?

 

The losses couldn’t have have happened due to Covid?

 

And now you think “players have big egos” because one player, Kenny Moore, wants to re-do his contract?   
 

You’re making some astonishing leaps….

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4 hours ago, csmopar said:

Agreed. He’s amongst the top paid NB which is what he is. He’s not an outside guy and he had a crap end of the year. Hard knocks killing this team exactly as I called it. Dumbest decision yet to volunteer to be on that 


We started the season 1-4….  Then for roughly the next 10 weeks or so we were one of the hottest teams in the entire NFL.   Remember when the Colts were the team no one wanted to face in the playoffs?   Where were you when that was happening?  The Hard Knocks decision looked great and your view was clearly wrong. 
 

We ended up one win away from the playoffs when Covid hit us the last two weeks.   You chalk it up to bad player egos.   There’s no evidence that was the issue. 

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He’s just a slot guy.  He’s out of his mind if he thinks he should get paid like an elite outside guy.  Either that or just dumb.  Seriously, what a stupid argument.

 

 

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17 hours ago, lollygagger8 said:

con·tract: a written or spoken agreement

 

Ummm, Kenny signed the contract that said he would play 4 yr/$33M. Getting upset that you don't want to fill your end of the bargain that you agreed to/signed is what little children do. 

 

He also seems to be forgetting how bad he was when he first got here, and the team stuck with him and gave him a chance. 

Thoughts when teams break said contract any time they want too?  Not saying Kenny is right here but NFL player contracts are a little different than most other contracts signed.  Most other contracts can’t be broken by one side anytime they feel like it.  

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6 hours ago, csmopar said:

Really? I do believe the moment they announced this that I said they’d miss the playoffs and a few players would suddenly get big egos…. Both have happened

Hard knocks had nothing to do with missing the playoffs.  This is an example of two things being true statements but one did not cause the other.  Yes the Colts were on hard knocks.  Yes the Colts missed the playoffs.  One did not cause the other.  
 

As for the later one player asking for a new contract doesn’t mean a few players suddenly have gotten big egos.  Contract disputes and hold outs happen with every team in the NFL.  It just hasn’t happened with the Colts in a long time.  So fans aren’t used to it and are acting like it.  So far Kenny’s hold out has been very mild by hold out standards.  He missed voluntary workouts (even though he showed up for some of them just didn’t do team drills which is more than Ngakoue can say and no one seems to care about that) and then was here for the mandatory stuff.  If he shows up for camp this will be extremely mild will seemingly be more about getting the Colts attention for next year.

 

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7 hours ago, GoColts8818 said:

Thoughts when teams break said contract any time they want too?  Not saying Kenny is right here but NFL player contracts are a little different than most other contracts signed.  Most other contracts can’t be broken by one side anytime they feel like it.  

 

Goes both ways. If someone tells you they are going to do something, they should do it! 

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9 hours ago, GoColts8818 said:

Thoughts when teams break said contract any time they want too?  Not saying Kenny is right here but NFL player contracts are a little different than most other contracts signed.  Most other contracts can’t be broken by one side anytime they feel like it.  

the difference is the signing bonuses (or guaranteed money).   The player gets to keep this.   I think it is fair that a team can void the contract and a player cannot.   

 

Kenny Moore signed a 4 year, $33,300,000 contract with the Indianapolis Colts, including $9,000,000 guaranteed, and an average annual salary of $8,325,000. In 2022, Moore will earn a base salary of $6,500,000 and a roster bonus of $250,000, while carrying a cap hit of $6,750,000.

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19 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:


We started the season 1-4….  Then for roughly the next 10 weeks or so we were one of the hottest teams in the entire NFL.   Remember when the Colts were the team no one wanted to face in the playoffs?   Where were you when that was happening?  The Hard Knocks decision looked great and your view was clearly wrong. 
 

We ended up one win away from the playoffs when Covid hit us the last two weeks.   You chalk it up to bad player egos.   There’s no evidence that was the issue. 

I was right here saying that with each episode release that it was a bad idea.

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17 minutes ago, csmopar said:

I was right here saying that with each episode release that it was a bad idea.

Except it wasn’t.  It had nothing to do with how the season ended.  The guys didn’t play poorly verses the Raiders and Jags because they were going we are on hard knocks we are hot stuff.  Suggesting that is ridiculous and is a sign of someone wanting to see something they want to see and want to be true not that is true.  

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4 hours ago, GoColts8818 said:

Except it wasn’t.  It had nothing to do with how the season ended.  The guys didn’t play poorly verses the Raiders and Jags because they were going we are on hard knocks we are hot stuff.  Suggesting that is ridiculous and is a sign of someone wanting to see something they want to see and want to be true not that is true.  

Agree to disagree 

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On 6/13/2022 at 7:05 AM, Solid84 said:

This also sums up my feelings on it. 
 

It’s just too early to even consider it this year. If I was Ballard I’d flat out say no, next year maybe, if you perform this year. 


Also, he has to realise he’s a NB or I’d be out and let him seek a trade partner. 

I'd be tempted to simply say "no, not right now" as well if I were Ballard. But I'd probably be willing to simply guarantee this season's salary, that is, if he's using the whole guaranteed money argument. If he's simply demanding to be paid as and elite CB in the 20M range, then I'd simply tell him that's not going to happen unless he can show he's an elite inside and outside CB this season.

 

I also wouldn't be shocked to see him play less outside CB this year in the new scheme. He might be concerned with that as well fearing his value will go down if his snaps decrease. 

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On 6/13/2022 at 3:14 PM, csmopar said:

Tell

him if he wants to be paid as an elite Outside CB, to play like one or sit it out 

Yup. But I'd want to avoid the loss of simply letting someone sit out. 

And I doubt he'll ever be elite on the outside given what we've seen. 

Some guys are just much better at one or the other. Very few can be elite at both. 

So if that's his demand, like I said, I'd let him try and find a trade partner that wants to pay him that much. 

I don't doubt he'd get a little more than what he's being paid now, but doubt any teams are going to pony up top 5 CB money. 

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17 hours ago, EastStreet said:

Yup. But I'd want to avoid the loss of simply letting someone sit out. 

And I doubt he'll ever be elite on the outside given what we've seen. 

Some guys are just much better at one or the other. Very few can be elite at both. 

So if that's his demand, like I said, I'd let him try and find a trade partner that wants to pay him that much. 

I don't doubt he'd get a little more than what he's being paid now, but doubt any teams are going to pony up top 5 CB money. 

Best case scenario. KM comes to his scences and "balls out", to earn what he feels he is owed....worst case, he sits out and gets fined, leaving the Colts little wiggle room in any trade negotiations.  Not the place or time Kenny, sack up!

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I am guessing that Kenny will show up for camp and be his normal self with a bit of motivation to have a better year than last. He was/is the underdog that made it, and the Colts rewarded him with the 4/ $33 mil contract, as a nickel, acknowledging his work and dedication then. Seems to be more agent driven, than player rebellion, but Ballard will deal some performance stats across the table to them both, and say "I call" .  The team will not jeopardize their secondary with a prove it, outside corner significant reps as a test/prove it scenario, it will remain as it has, nickel, and some switches as needed outside. Seems like Kenny has planted his "what about me" flag on the front office hill, but only he can earn more than he already is, they shouldn't have to guess if he can become something he wants to be, he must earn it.

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In order to push a restructure two years early you have to be special.  Kenny by virtue of being a slot is not special.  I hope they come to some sort of agreement on this but sadly this is the type of situation teams will dig in on.

 

Maybe he'll just play out this season and they can move him in the offseason.  That's my hope.  But he's probably not going to be around too much longer with the belief that he deserves top corner money.

 

Also and btw...  As things stand right now if you look at the Colts cap allocation they're paying an ILB which is not a typical money position.  Leonard is great and all but that sort of stands out.  Then they also might end up paying a RB, which is another non-typical money position due to supply (every draft has plenty of options) and injury risk.  These are positions good teams tend to go with mediocre or first-contract only options while they pay more important positions.  So paying a slot is even more unlikely, and I imagine Ballard is going to stand his ground on this one.

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5 hours ago, LiveAndLetAddai said:

Best case scenario. KM comes to his scences and "balls out", to earn what he feels he is owed....worst case, he sits out and gets fined, leaving the Colts little wiggle room in any trade negotiations.  Not the place or time Kenny, sack up!

 

To keep it simple, if I'm Ballard, I'm going to resolve this one way or another BEFORE TC starts up lol....

 

And I just can't see Ballard giving a big raise and extension with 2 years to go. Horrible precedent to set internally to Indy, and across the NFL. 

 

And while I really hope Kenny stays, he's probably the easiest of our top players to do without or replace. And this particular situation has made me think more and more about his situation in NE. Drama on both teams. 

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1 hour ago, EastStreet said:

 

To keep it simple, if I'm Ballard, I'm going to resolve this one way or another BEFORE TC starts up lol....

 

And I just can't see Ballard giving a big raise and extension with 2 years to go. Horrible precedent to set internally to Indy, and across the NFL. 

 

And while I really hope Kenny stays, he's probably the easiest of our top players to do without or replace. And this particular situation has made me think more and more about his situation in NE. Drama on both teams. 

I can't disagree!

 

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On 6/13/2022 at 5:50 AM, EastStreet said:

 

In short,

  • Hope it works out. My gut is starting to tell me this might get like his NE situation though.
  • Sets a very bad precedent to even start to negotiate with 2 years left on a contract.
  • Tell him to play this year with a promise to work on something early offseason
  • If he's adamant though about being in the elite CB range (20M), allow him to seek a trade with equal return value for Indy

Isn’t this about Kenny and his agent trying to reset and test the price market for NB? If they truly are, the only way out of this is to put him in the market and see where the price evaluation ends up. Not sure this is what Kenny wants, but you don’t dictate to the market, the market dictates to you. I don’t think he have thought the different consequences of this out that well. 

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5 hours ago, EastStreet said:

 

To keep it simple, if I'm Ballard, I'm going to resolve this one way or another BEFORE TC starts up lol....

 

And I just can't see Ballard giving a big raise and extension with 2 years to go. Horrible precedent to set internally to Indy, and across the NFL. 

 

And while I really hope Kenny stays, he's probably the easiest of our top players to do without or replace. And this particular situation has made me think more and more about his situation in NE. Drama on both teams. 


What was his situation in New England?

 

I know he was cut, but beyond that, I’ve never heard anything negative.    What can you share?

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On 6/14/2022 at 12:59 AM, GoColts8818 said:

Thoughts when teams break said contract any time they want too?  Not saying Kenny is right here but NFL player contracts are a little different than most other contracts signed.  Most other contracts can’t be broken by one side anytime they feel like it.  

No but you can fire a "contractor" any time you wish even with a signed contract if you are not happy. Where it goes from there is when things get "settled". Just like  you hear about jobs being " OVER BUDGET". There can also be amendments made to contracts also.  ( this take is all outside the NFL though). 

 

An NFL contract is almost the same as accepting a job for $15 IMHO. You start there and as you do better you get a raise but the employer can only pay you X amount of dollars no matter how well you do.  But we all know this.  

 

In Kenny's situation he  said hey i'll work for x amount for this long, Well now he is saying hey i want more money and if i don't get it im not going to finish my job. Now if he said hey I'm working my tail off over here we are at this stage in our work so I'm going to continue working my tail of for you but hopefully we can make things a lil better after this (2022) season.   I personally would feel better for him. At the stage he is at now if im Ballard I'd tell him this.

1 hey we like you here ( if true)

2. you are still under contract for x amount of years.

3. I went out on a limb and paid you more then what anybody else thought you was worth already. 

4. Work hard and show us you wanna be here.

5. Come see me after this year 

6. hey if you think your that good find somebody who will pay you what you want and you can go play for them. 

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2 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:


What was his situation in New England?

 

I know he was cut, but beyond that, I’ve never heard anything negative.    What can you share?

 

He hated the culture in NE, and got into it a lot with his position coach and I think perhaps his DC. There has been chatter over the years, but Kenny did an interview last year confirming most of the chatter. Of course, with his slant. IIRC, said the workload was too much, and the style was like the military. Not a good fit for the "Patriot Way" I guess lol. One of the things that stuck out to me at the time (which makes even more sense now) was him saying he shouldn't be compared to some of the elite CBs in the league, and that they should be compared to him lol. I think he specifically called out Gilmore too, which is a bit funny and ironic given the timing. 

 

There were several write ups about the interview, and I'm sure you can find the original or regurgitations. 

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3 hours ago, Mr. Irrelevant said:

Isn’t this about Kenny and his agent trying to reset and test the price market for NB? If they truly are, the only way out of this is to put him in the market and see where the price evaluation ends up. Not sure this is what Kenny wants, but you don’t dictate to the market, the market dictates to you. I don’t think he have thought the different consequences of this out that well. 

 

IDK. Given his comments, sounds like he doesn't want to seen as a NB, and believes he should be considered one of the elite CBs overall. 

 

But I doubt he gets the outcome he envisioned lol. 

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17 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

 

To keep it simple, if I'm Ballard, I'm going to resolve this one way or another BEFORE TC starts up lol....

 

And I just can't see Ballard giving a big raise and extension with 2 years to go. Horrible precedent to set internally to Indy, and across the NFL. 

 

And while I really hope Kenny stays, he's probably the easiest of our top players to do without or replace. And this particular situation has made me think more and more about his situation in NE. Drama on both teams. 

Exactly. I’d take a 4th minimum or preferably a 3rd for him. Offer to eat his salary to get the 3rd. Then move on

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5 minutes ago, csmopar said:

Exactly. I’d take a 4th minimum or preferably a 3rd for him. Offer to eat his salary to get the 3rd. Then move on

 

I wouldn't eat his salary at all. 

Personally, I'd say a 2nd min. 

 

What I would do, is use his agents evaluation and demands as a basis for what trade compensation I'd be looking for. 

So for instance, if his agent said he wanted top 10 CB pay (which is min $16.5M), then I'd tell him we'll trade him if he can find a team that is willing to pay him that much, and give up someone that's top 10 at their position in trade, or equivalent draft capital. 

 

Regardless, no reason to take a loss on a bad trade. I'd be tempted to let him sit, not get paid, and be fined. If given the opportunity to let his agent test the market, the interest likely will not match the agents eval, IMO. 

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3 hours ago, EastStreet said:

 

I wouldn't eat his salary at all. 

Personally, I'd say a 2nd min. 

 

What I would do, is use his agents evaluation and demands as a basis for what trade compensation I'd be looking for. 

So for instance, if his agent said he wanted top 10 CB pay (which is min $16.5M), then I'd tell him we'll trade him if he can find a team that is willing to pay him that much, and give up someone that's top 10 at their position in trade, or equivalent draft capital. 

 

Regardless, no reason to take a loss on a bad trade. I'd be tempted to let him sit, not get paid, and be fined. If given the opportunity to let his agent test the market, the interest likely will not match the agents eval, IMO. 

The contract he has is more than fair considering he doesn't play outside. I agree 100% though. In no way should we eat his salary. He should honor the contract he signed. I'd let him sit and walk to be honest. Maybe go CB early in next years draft. The addition of Gilmore gives us some flexibility and with Rodgers playing CB2 you could possibly plug Tell or Facyson into the slot. 

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Also worth to keep in mind: Ballard have stressed the mindset of “either you in or out” multiple times, so I find it unlikely that he would accept to have a dissatisfied Kenny in the team spreading a bad mood. I think this will get resolved one way or another during August. 

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6 minutes ago, Mr. Irrelevant said:

Also worth to keep in mind: Ballard have stressed the mindset of “either you in or out” multiple times, so I find it unlikely that he would accept to have a dissatisfied Kenny in the team spreading a bad mood. I think this will get resolved one way or another during August. 

I think so too.  We are looking forward to a productive camp.  We don't need Kenny being a distraction and potentially causing more friction.  I think Ballard puts this behind us pretty quickly in August. 

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6 hours ago, FuedinHatfield said:

The contract he has is more than fair considering he doesn't play outside. I agree 100% though. In no way should we eat his salary. He should honor the contract he signed. I'd let him sit and walk to be honest. Maybe go CB early in next years draft. The addition of Gilmore gives us some flexibility and with Rodgers playing CB2 you could possibly plug Tell or Facyson into the slot. 

 

We're in 4-2-5 roughly 70% of the time IIRC, and he played like 97% of available snaps on D. So he did play some outside, albeit only about 25% of snaps. That said, he just wasn't all that great outside. It was a down year for him, but I'd say a good amount of his low-lights were outside and when taken vertically inside or out. But it's likely because of his high snap count, and the fact he plays inside and out, that he thinks he deserves to be in the upper echelon of general CB play.

 

Regardless, we really don't know what his "ask" is. Just that he's talked a bunch about wanting to be seen as an elite CB, not elite NB (from comments this year). Also comments from him early last year when he put himself in the company of Alexander (now the highest paid CB in the NFL) and Gilmore (at the time, top 10ish paid, and was a top 3 graded in WAR). 

 

Overall, just bad timing with two years left regardless of "ask", but most assume his ask is probably pretty high given his comments. I'd assume he's likely ticked off that Gilmore was signed to a two year deal, and is making a few million more. Hugely ironic given his comments from early last year lol. 

 

 

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Moore has had his best seasons in Flus’ defensive scheme.  I’m willing to bet that Flus would love to have him in Chicago.  What could we get from the Bears for him?  I’d do cartwheels for their 2nd next year.  Too much?  Do they have any players we could use?  
 

The only scary thing is the last corner we let go to Chicago turned into a beast for a few seasons once he got there.  But we couldn’t pass up on that 2nd if was on the table. 

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2 hours ago, Smoke317 said:

Moore has had his best seasons in Flus’ defensive scheme.  I’m willing to bet that Flus would love to have him in Chicago.  What could we get from the Bears for him?  I’d do cartwheels for their 2nd next year.  Too much?  Do they have any players we could use?  
 

The only scary thing is the last corner we let go to Chicago turned into a beast for a few seasons once he got there.  But we couldn’t pass up on that 2nd if was on the table. 

 

Not sure how the Bears secondary shakes out, but they've got a few nice young prospects to go along with their vets. Their 2nd round draft pick (Gordon) could likely play NB if he doesn't win one of the outside spots. Graham and Young IIRC are also in the NB mix. 

 

But overall, don't think Flus is going to give up a lot in a trade. If they wanted to send Gordon in exchange, I'd be OK with that lol. 

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