Poll: The Kenny Moore Situation

[EastStreet]

 

With all the football action done again for 6ish weeks, will likely take another nice break from the board..

Unless some big news happens... lol...

 

Haven't seen a poll on the Moore situation, so here's one before I vaca.

Hope it all gets worked out before TC, one way, or another.

 

Enjoy, and likely see ya back around training camp. I'll try and pop in some though.

 

FYI - I've listed out all the NBs in another thread if your interested in comparing to Kenny.

And if you care about PFF scores in general, Kenny was ranked the 37th best CB (among all CBs) last season. 

 

 

 

[coltsfan_canada]

No sir play out your contract or ship him out as long as we get good value. 

 

By the way I dont understand couple of months ago he was recruiting players for us like Lockett from SEA now this 

[EastStreet]

 

In short,

• Hope it works out. My gut is starting to tell me this might get like his NE situation though.
• Sets a very bad precedent to even start to negotiate with 2 years left on a contract.
• Tell him to play this year with a promise to work on something early offseason
• If he's adamant though about being in the elite CB range (20M), allow him to seek a trade with equal return value for Indy

[EastStreet]

10 minutes ago, coltsfan_canada said:

No sir play out your contract or ship him out as long as we get good value. 

 

By the way I dont understand couple of months ago he was recruiting players for us like Lockett from SEA now this 

I don't mind negotiating in a contract year, but 2 years left is just over the line for me. 

[EastStreet]

And sorry, meant to add this...

 

Saw an show last year that discussed the whole CB vs NB debate. Believe it was on the NFL channel (or maybe NFL Live).

 

In short, they more or less settled on...

• There's definitely a pecking order these days, and always have been throughout the D evolution. 
• The need for good NBs has increased
• But CB1 is still easily the most important and valuable DB position. 
• It gets fuzzier when comparing a team's CB2 and NB

So in short, if you just look at the pure math. 

32 teams. 32 CB1s. 32 CB2s. 32 NBs 

I think teams on average use 2.7ish CBs on average, which means nickel is really base D these days.

 

Kenny plays a lot of snaps, and is our obvious NB, but plays the CB2 roll at times when not in nickel. Not sure that will be the case in the new scheme.

 

 

[DynaMike]

Question#4 could be either of the last 2 options, but we can only vote for 1. I think both of those options could go together: Find a suitable trade or play next year under the current contract.

 

I've always liked Kenny, but don't like divas, and hope he doesn't go diva on us. Did the pro bowl thing go to his head?

[EastStreet]

1 minute ago, DynaMike said:

Question#4 could be either of the last 2 options, but we can only vote for 1. I think both of those options could go together: Find a suitable trade or play next year under the current contract.

 

I've always liked Kenny, but don't like divas, and hope he doesn't go diva on us. Did the pro bowl thing go to his head?

 

Totally agree. I think I actually used both situations in my later post.

 

And I'm the same on loving Kenny, but hate diva stuff. The PB was deserved a year or so ago, not this last year. It was a down year, and even Kenny admitted he struggled at times this season. When he did that interview about the Pats situation, it concerned me a bit, but I forgot all about it based on his time here. Now I'm starting to feel like perhaps he's more "me" than I thought. I'd like him to get a raise and paid his market value, but during his contract year, not with 2 years left. And he needs to understand CB1s are more valuable than CB2s or NBs. I'm fine with NBs and CB2s in the same conversation, and even fine with NBs creeping up the CB1 stack, but not top 5 or even 10. 

 

Hope it works out. We're better with him than without him. But he's not the end all either. 

[Bravo]

I understand the one year left on contract argument because it is a contract year. I’m not really sure about holding out with two years left though. Seems odd.

 

Not like Moore was a complete shutdown corner last year either. First Pro Bowl season but dude got absolutely torched by Renfrow and the Jags the final 2 weeks.

[stitches]

I've made my position clear. I think his contention that he's an elite all around corner is preposterous and this is easily seen every time he actually has to play outside CB. Last year he wasn't even one of the best NB, let alone overall corners, but since he's had a few years before when he's played at that level at NB I'm willing to give him that he's an elite slot corner. 

 

I don't think outside corners and slot corners are the same, I think playing slot corner is ... different and in a lot of ways easier. Which is why a ton of elite outside corners can play in the slot at a very good level, but the same cannot be said about slot corners playing outside. Playing on the boundary is just a completely different deal. 

 

What I expect can happen (and what I actually want to happen because I don't like Kenny outside) if Kenny continues his insistance is - Rodgers and Gilmore will take all his outside corner snaps and he won't have even that arguement anymore, but he will return to being a great slot corner. I'm good with giving him top market money for that position, but not for all around corner or outside corner. 

[Myles]

I've always liked him but this is wearing on me a bit.   We are going into a new season with a new vet QB and really don't need the crap to start.   

[lollygagger8]

con·tract: a written or spoken agreement

 

Ummm, Kenny signed the contract that said he would play 4 yr/$33M. Getting upset that you don't want to fill your end of the bargain that you agreed to/signed is what little children do. 

 

He also seems to be forgetting how bad he was when he first got here, and the team stuck with him and gave him a chance. 

[Solid84]

7 hours ago, EastStreet said:

 

In short,

• Hope it works out. My gut is starting to tell me this might get like his NE situation though.
• Sets a very bad precedent to even start to negotiate with 2 years left on a contract.
• Tell him to play this year with a promise to work on something early offseason
• If he's adamant though about being in the elite CB range (20M), allow him to seek a trade with equal return value for Indy

This also sums up my feelings on it. 
 

It’s just too early to even consider it this year. If I was Ballard I’d flat out say no, next year maybe, if you perform this year. 

Also, he has to realise he’s a NB or I’d be out and let him seek a trade partner. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

1. Yes

2. No

3. No

4. Play out the season.

5. Outside CB's are more important.

 

-My votes

[DougDew]

The poll doesn't allow me to express how I see the issue.

 

Kenny was a low round draft pick who did not stick with his first team. There are always exceptions, but his pedigree does not speak to being a top 10 anything.  He had a few good years where he overperformed relative to his DNA, but his trajectory is likely taking him back to earth.  

 

Like Musk says, if you don't show up, we assume you have resigned.

[Four2itus]

Tried to answer, but could not answer #5. You created a black and white scenario, which is not black and white. 

 

 

[shasta519]

I see why Kenny wants more money. His PB teammates at CB are all making $18-20M AAV. Who wouldn't want more money in that scenario?

 

But those guys had played out their rookie deals and got paid.

 

Despite not even being drafted, Moore has made a lot of money. He got a 4/$33M deal after only two seasons in the NFL (one as a starter), which is unheard for UDFAs. That deal gave added $8M to his third season, which meant after three seasons in the NFL, Moore (an UDFA) had made slightly less money than Marshon Lattimore (#1 CB in that class  and #11 overall pick) and even more than Marlon Humphrey (#2 CB in that class and #16 overall pick).

 

Even after 5 seasons, Moore has made more money than the vast majority of that draft class, including some 1st round picks.

 

Not saying he hasn't earned his money, but he definitely hasn't been underpaid at any point.

 

The trade-off for that early extension and security was (in part) the cheaper cost control for the Colts in the back end, especially the last two years, when players like Leonard, Smith, Nelson would all be getting paid.

 

So far, that 4-year contract has basically been a 2/$18M deal, with $14M due the last two years. But the AAV for those last two years seems to be all that ever seems to gets mentioned. 

 

And now that the last two non-gtd years are coming into play, it seems like Moore wants to have his cake (the initial two years including the bonus money that paid him early in his career) and eat it too (get another new contract that increases the last two years and pays him more money, especially gtd money). So in that sense, Moore isn't really holding up his end of "the bargain." 

 

It would probably an entirely different thing to do this next offseason, after playing out 3/4 years, but I am guessing that there is urgency for Moore (and his agent), given the Colts will have to pay Q soon and then Pitt and Taylor next offseason. 

 

But beyond the timing being early, it's also just bad timing. We can't judge him based on the last two games, which I agree. However, it wasn't the last two games. The first 7 games of the season were bad as well. And paired with the last two, that's more than half a season. 

 

I don't really see how this is going to work for him. If he sits out TC, I think it will be next man up. And we have seen guys lose their starting positions.

 

[Superman]

There are some good points in this thread. Others I very much disagree with.

 

To me, KM's approach is simple. He's 27, one of the best nickelbacks in the league, probably the team's third best/most important defensive player. He's almost definitely a roster lock for the remainder of his contract. If he were a FA, he'd probably be paid a lot more than $7m/year. His contract isn't up for two more seasons, but it also has no more guaranteed money, which leaves him vulnerable to an injury or coaching change (like we just had at DC), undermining his standing and earnings. From his perspective, this is his best opportunity to maximize his earning potential, and secure additional pay while he's still in his physical prime, before something damages his standing.

 

From the team's perspective, he's still under contract for two seasons. It would be a bad team precedent to extend him or give him a significant raise at this point on his contract. He didn't have his best season in 2021. We have other players coming up for extensions before KM's contract expires, and because we don't backload contracts we have more limitations with cap space. Isaiah Rodgers might be able to replace KM. So the team's resistance to his request for a new contract are understandable. I mostly agree with the team's stance in this situation.

 

Seeing a contract dispute play out between a good player and the team isn't common for the Colts. It happens around the league, though. Aaron Donald threatened to retire, the Rams responded with a new contract, despite two years remaining on his deal. And that's his second high profile standoff with the Rams. Just the latest, biggest example, but KM doesn't have the leverage Donald had, not even close, which is why he probably won't get what he wants.

 

But that's what these standoffs come down to -- leverage. And because league rules tend to favor the team vs the player, it's rare to see a player seemingly have more leverage than the team, especially when the player is still under contract for more than one season. It basically requires a top five player who has already made a lot of money threatening not to show up/play, demanding a trade, etc. 

 

But NFL contracts get renegotiated all the time, prompted by both sides. Because NFL player contracts are more flexible in structure, are typically not fully  guaranteed, and NFL players on average have shorter careers than other pro athletes due to injury, players are encouraged to get whatever they can get, when/while they can. To me, being sanctimonious about a "contract" is a waste of time, and misses the mark. And to be honest, the better your roster is, the more likely you'll have players that are disgruntled about their contract situation.

[shasta519]

10 minutes ago, Superman said:

There are some good points in this thread. Others I very much disagree with.

 

To me, KM's approach is simple. He's 27, one of the best nickelbacks in the league, probably the team's third best/most important defensive player. He's almost definitely a roster lock for the remainder of his contract. If he were a FA, he'd probably be paid a lot more than $7m/year. His contract isn't up for two more seasons, but it also has no more guaranteed money, which leaves him vulnerable to an injury or coaching change (like we just had at DC), undermining his standing and earnings. From his perspective, this is his best opportunity to maximize his earning potential, and secure additional pay while he's still in his physical prime, before something damages his standing.

 

From the team's perspective, he's still under contract for two seasons. It would be a bad team precedent to extend him or give him a significant raise at this point on his contract. He didn't have his best season in 2021. We have other players coming up for extensions before KM's contract expires, and because we don't backload contracts we have more limitations with cap space. Isaiah Rodgers might be able to replace KM. So the team's resistance to his request for a new contract are understandable. I mostly agree with the team's stance in this situation.

 

Seeing a contract dispute play out between a good player and the team isn't common for the Colts. It happens around the league, though. Aaron Donald threatened to retire, the Rams responded with a new contract, despite two years remaining on his deal. And that's his second high profile standoff with the Rams. Just the latest, biggest example, but KM doesn't have the leverage Donald had, not even close, which is why he probably won't get what he wants.

 

But that's what these standoffs come down to -- leverage. And because league rules tend to favor the team vs the player, it's rare to see a player seemingly have more leverage than the team, especially when the player is still under contract for more than one season. It basically requires a top five player who has already made a lot of money threatening not to show up/play, demanding a trade, etc. 

 

But NFL contracts get renegotiated all the time, prompted by both sides. Because NFL player contracts are more flexible in structure, are typically not fully  guaranteed, and NFL players on average have shorter careers than other pro athletes due to injury, players are encouraged to get whatever they can get, when/while they can. To me, being sanctimonious about a "contract" is a waste of time, and misses the mark. And to be honest, the better your roster is, the more likely you'll have players that are disgruntled about their contract situation.

 

The approach is simple, but it doesn't seem like normal practice for a player to want a new deal only 2/4 years into his second contract. But I don't really pay that much attention to other team's contracts.

 

I think if it was as simple as gt'ing the remainder of his current deal, the Colts would do that.

 

Barring a trade, I just don't think this is going to go how Moore thinks. At least not until next offseason.

 

[stitches]

I actually think Isaiah Rodgers can be what Kenny Moore thinks he is - great all around corner who can play both outside and in the slot. I would much rather save the money on Kenny and give them to Rodgers in a year time if he continues progressing the way he's been so far. 

 

The problem with Kenny sitting out is that we didn't really address that position in the off-season, so to some degree he might have leverage there. Sure we can move Rodgers in the slot, but WHY? Why should we limit one of our most promising defensive players to a slot role when he's been showing great flashes outside and all the reports from camp are that he's actually taking even another jump this year. Maybe that's why we were so much after Mathieu in FA. But it didn't happen so we don't have a clearcut option for the slot that won't take away from other positions. Maybe they can try Cross or the Yale guy in case of an impasse?  

[Superman]

9 minutes ago, shasta519 said:

 

The approach is simple, but it doesn't seem like normal practice for a player to want a new deal only 2/4 years into his second contract. But I don't really pay that much attention to other team's contracts.

 

I think if it was as simple as gt'ing the remainder of his current deal, the Colts would do that.

 

Barring a trade, I just don't think this is going to go how Moore thinks. At least not until next offseason.

 

 

Normal practice? No. More common than Colts fans who don't pay attention to other team's contracts are used to? Definitely. I'd rather not have this affecting the Colts right now, but it's a not a rare occurrence. 

 

I don't think it's as simple as guaranteeing the remainder of his contract, I think he wants more money, based on his recent comments. And I don't think it will go the way he wants, either, but he's on the record now. And if he has a good season in 2022, the team is on notice that he won't quietly play out the final year of his contract.

[Superman]

By the way, meant to say this earlier, despite not having his best season in 2021, KM was still very productive for us last year. Third best tackler (behind Okereke and Leonard), tied for lead in INTs (with Leonard), and we know he can be an effective blitzer. I know he had some tough coverage games (against maybe the best slot receivers in the league -- Kupp, Renfrow), and didn't finish the season well, but he's still a really good player who has been important for our defense. I assume that will continue to be the case.

 

@stitches Maybe Rodgers can replace him in our defense, but that's probably not a given at this point. He barely played slot last season, although I think he fits the profile, I'd like to see it first.

[stitches]

4 minutes ago, Superman said:

By the way, meant to say this earlier, despite not having his best season in 2021, KM was still very productive for us last year. Third best tackler (behind Okereke and Leonard), tied for lead in INTs (with Leonard), and we know he can be an effective blitzer. I know he had some tough coverage games (against maybe the best slot receivers in the league -- Kupp, Renfrow), and didn't finish the season well, but he's still a really good player who has been important for our defense. I assume that will continue to be the case.

 

@stitches Maybe Rodgers can replace him in our defense, but that's probably not a given at this point. He barely played slot last season, although I think he fits the profile, I'd like to see it first.

I think Rodgers is already better than Kenny outside. Not sure how he will fare inside for prolonged stretches and that's why I actually want him outside. I've been fighting on this hill since Rodgers' rookie year sporadic playtime outside - he just looks like an outside corner to me. He's not as small as people think and he's still super long. He has it all - high level athleticism, feel for the ball... he doesn't panic(unlike Rock for example) when the ball is in the air. I think he will be a true revelation for the whole league and very soon, probably as soon as this year. 

 

What do you think we do in case Kenny holds out or demands a trade or something? WHo will end up in that spot and in the other 2 outside spots. Probably the cleanest transition would be Gilmore + Facyson outside, Rodgers inside, but I really don't like this because I think this would be a waste of Rodgers' talents. 

[Superman]

5 minutes ago, stitches said:

I think Rodgers is already better than Kenny outside. Not sure how he will fare inside for prolonged stretches and that's why I actually want him outside. I've been fighting on this hill since Rodgers' rookie year sporadic playtime outside - he just looks like an outside corner to me. He's not as small as people think and he's still super long. He has it all - high level athleticism, feel for the ball... he doesn't panic(unlike Rock for example) when the ball is in the air. I think he will be a true revelation for the whole league and very soon, probably as soon as this year. 

 

What do you think we do in case Kenny holds out or demands a trade or something? WHo will end up in that spot and in the other 2 outside spots. Probably the cleanest transition would be Gilmore + Facyson outside, Rodgers inside, but I really don't like this because I think this would be a waste of Rodgers' talents. 

 

You're higher on Rodgers than I am, but that's just me being conservative. Also, no reason we can't move guys around from slot to boundary, especially since some of our guys have versatility. If he's a stud outside though, fine, leave him there and find a new nickel when we need.

 

If Kenny actually wants a raise and holds out, then I think the Colts take a hard line with him, and I think that's justified. Just because I understand where he's coming from doesn't mean I think the Colts should capitulate. His recent comments make it pretty clear he wants more money, which suggests a partial guarantee isn't going to satisfy him. If he plays all year and wants to revisit the topic next offseason, good deal. If he holds out, or holds in, or demands a trade, I'd feel differently. For now, I think he's just a good player who thinks he's underpaid (probably is based on the open market), and wants to secure more earnings. I expect him to show up and participate 100%. I could be wrong.

[Myles]

2 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

You're higher on Rodgers than I am, but that's just me being conservative. Also, no reason we can't move guys around from slot to boundary, especially since some of our guys have versatility. If he's a stud outside though, fine, leave him there and find a new nickel when we need.

 

If Kenny actually wants a raise and holds out, then I think the Colts take a hard line with him, and I think that's justified. Just because I understand where he's coming from doesn't mean I think the Colts should capitulate. His recent comments make it pretty clear he wants more money, which suggests a partial guarantee isn't going to satisfy him. If he plays all year and wants to revisit the topic next offseason, good deal. If he holds out, or holds in, or demands a trade, I'd feel differently. For now, I think he's just a good player who thinks he's underpaid (probably is based on the open market), and wants to secure more earnings. I expect him to show up and participate 100%. I could be wrong.

I hope the Colts do not open the can of worms by caving to a signed player who wants more money.  

[Superman]

2 minutes ago, Myles said:

I hope the Colts do not open the can of worms by caving to a signed player who wants more money.  

 

What if he was DPOY and we were in the AFCCG last season?

 

You can't always take a hard line with every player. Aaron Donald is the best example, but also a generational player. Either way, it speaks to leverage, which is what it's all about.

[stitches]

8 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

What if he was DPOY and we were in the AFCCG last season?

 

You can't always take a hard line with every player. Aaron Donald is the best example, but also a generational player. Either way, it speaks to leverage, which is what it's all about.

Yeah, my biggest problem with his demand is not that he's asking for more money and it's not that he still has 2 years on his deal. My biggest problem is that he's asking for it after having a down year. If you give it to him, pretty much anybody will be able to go to Ballard and ask for more money, no matter their performance and no matter their contract. I can understand true top of the league players wanting to be paid top of the market money. I cannot understand Kenny wanting more money after the year and especially the ending of the season he had. 

[Myles]

11 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

What if he was DPOY and we were in the AFCCG last season?

 

 

Those he was not and the team did not.    Of course different situations will yield different results.   Kenny is a good player who was compensated well.  He has made 1 pro bowl and I believe his head (and his agents head) got inflated.   I don't put much into pro bowl selections but I think it had some to do with this situation.  

[Superman]

9 minutes ago, stitches said:

Yeah, my biggest problem with his demand is not that he's asking for more money and it's not that he still has 2 years on his deal. My biggest problem is that he's asking for it after having a down year. If you give it to him, pretty much anybody will be able to go to Ballard and ask for more money, no matter their performance and no matter their contract. I can understand true top of the league players wanting to be paid top of the market money. I cannot understand Kenny wanting more money after the year and especially the ending of the previous season. 

 

That's an interesting conversation to have, and it tests the team's leverage. Because the player response is 'if that's what you think of me, then you should be fine with me holding out, let's see how you replace me.' 

 

I think they still view KM as one of their best, most important players, and even though fans have held 2021 against him, he was still productive. 

[Superman]

4 minutes ago, Myles said:

Those he was not and the team did not.    Of course different situations will yield different results.   Kenny is a good player who was compensated well.  He has made 1 pro bowl and I believe his head (and his agents head) got inflated.   I don't put much into pro bowl selections but I think it had some to do with this situation.  

 

"IF"

 

I'm assuming you didn't miss the point though. To the bolded, that's what matters. If the player and the team disagree on the player's value/role, that could lead to standoffs. 

[Hoose]

You can't discount that his new agent is telling him that there is a limited pool of money, and the squeaky wheel gets oiled. If every other key player whose contract is up next year gets paid, there may not be enough to fill Kenny's plate with what he thinks he deserves. So you put down your marker and if nothing else, put the team on notice that next year, he gets an extension or he holds out. And then you show up for TC and play your tail off in '22, hopefully making your contract extension a necessity for the team. Or you become a very attractive trade target for another team. 

 

I suspect that this is the card Kenny is playing, because I cannot see the Colts putting themselves in a box by caving to Kenny's demands until this year is over. At that point, an extension is not unreasonable. And if we can see it, no doubt Kenny and his advisors know this as well. 

 

 

[csmopar]

15 hours ago, EastStreet said:

 

With all the football action done again for 6ish weeks, will likely take another nice break from the board..

Unless some big news happens... lol...

 

Haven't seen a poll on the Moore situation, so here's one before I vaca.

Hope it all gets worked out before TC, one way, or another.

 

Enjoy, and likely see ya back around training camp. I'll try and pop in some though.

 

FYI - I've listed out all the NBs in another thread if your interested in comparing to Kenny.

And if you care about PFF scores in general, Kenny was ranked the 37th best CB (among all CBs) last season. 

 

 

 

Tell

him if he wants to be paid as an elite Outside CB, to play like one or sit it out 

[Solid84]

6 minutes ago, csmopar said:

Tell

him if he wants to be paid as an elite Outside CB, to play like one or sit it out 

This. It really irks me he does this after last years performance. It's either his agent whispering in his ear or he let the PB vote go to his head.

[csmopar]

14 minutes ago, Solid84 said:

This. It really irks me he does this after last years performance. It's either his agent whispering in his ear or he let the PB vote go to his head.

Agreed. He’s amongst the top paid NB which is what he is. He’s not an outside guy and he had a crap end of the year. Hard knocks killing this team exactly as I called it. Dumbest decision yet to volunteer to be on that 

[Myles]

30 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

"IF"

 

I'm assuming you didn't miss the point though. To the bolded, that's what matters. If the player and the team disagree on the player's value/role, that could lead to standoffs. 

I think it is different if you are the known best player on the team.   Other players will understand the team giving you more money but that is not what Kenny is so I hope the team doesn't cave.   If they do, I'd be afraid many other good players will try the same stuff.  

[Superman]

17 minutes ago, csmopar said:

Hard knocks killing this team exactly as I called it. Dumbest decision yet to volunteer to be on that 

 

Was and still is nonsense.

[richard pallo]

Just a gut feeling but I don’t have a good feeling this is going to work itself out so both sides are happy.  I think Kenny is going to play hardball and I think Ballard will trade him sooner rather than later to avoid having him disrupting training camp for an extended period.  JMO.

[csmopar]

2 hours ago, Superman said:

 

Was and still is nonsense.

Really? I do believe the moment they announced this that I said they’d miss the playoffs and a few players would suddenly get big egos…. Both have happened

[BProland85]

Trade him to Washington for Terry McLaurin. We can replace Moore with Isaiah Rodgers in the slot. Then draft an outside CB early in the draft next year. 

[Superman]

19 minutes ago, csmopar said:

Really? I do believe the moment they announced this that I said they’d miss the playoffs and a few players would suddenly get big egos…. Both have happened

 

Yeah I'm sure you said it, doesn't mean it's true. (Just like you said Belichick would use Hard Knocks to beat us, which didn't happen.) This is like predicting that if you get your car washed, it's going to rain, so now you think washing your car makes rain fall. 

[shasta519]

46 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Yeah I'm sure you said it, doesn't mean it's true. (Just like you said Belichick would use Hard Knocks to beat us, which didn't happen.) This is like predicting that if you get your car washed, it's going to rain, so now you think washing your car makes rain fall. 

No…me pushing off mowing one day is what makes it rain. I am sure of it.