Developing players.

[Nickster]

25 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

There is a line that he must cross that doesn't sit well with his bosses.   I don't think anyone thinks a guy like Howard Mudd was a soft yes man,   but he was employed for long periods of time without being fired

Apparently no other NFL team or large University wanted him either

 

 

It's probably the professionals he coached not wanting to play for him would be my guess. 

[shasta519]

1 hour ago, DougDew said:

Same answers to the same questions asked a different way. 

 

No player on defense stands out.  I would say that Leonard hasn't been "developed".  He's pretty much played the same as he did day one as a rookie.  Good draft pick, but I don't see the growth.

 

Right. Leonard and Nelson were APs as rookies. 

 

I think Grover Stewart is probably the most glaring example of player development. But nobody else on that DL really stands out. I also haven't really seen any development in the secondary. I thought Willis had really taken a leap, but now I don't know what to think. 

 

[shasta519]

7 minutes ago, John Waylon said:

 

That arm is definitely still an issue. 

 

Yeah...if it's his left elbow he didn't even want any part of using it there.

 

But that wasn't all on him. 

[BlackTiger]

4 hours ago, Nesjan3 said:

Pascal was a UDFA wasnt he

He was undrafted, signed and then waived by two other teams before he came here.  He spent some time on the titans practice squad too

[Bravo]

2 hours ago, John Waylon said:

 

That arm is definitely still an issue. 

Man….

 

If only our defensive line could get pressure like that…. Maybe our defense wouldn’t be Swiss cheese

[throwing BBZ]

 

  I feel very good about Moore, Hines, Pascal, Grover. and Mack.

 Mo-Allie has come a long way as a blocker.

 

  Now we have a long list of 1st to 3rd year players that many of which will have to become really good at their jobs for us to become a top team.

 History has shown me you need a roster with a sizeable number of 4th to 7th year players that have been in the system together.

 We are a ways away.

  

[DougDew]

4 hours ago, shasta519 said:

 

Yeah...if it's his left elbow he didn't even want any part of using it there.

 

But that wasn't all on him. 

Pause at the 15 to 16 second mark.  Kelley was still looking/facing right as Donald was passing him on the left.  Kelly was (is) just plain slow.

[NewColtsFan]

5 hours ago, csmopar said:

I think it’s most injury issues but we also switched coaches which I think is a bigger cause for concern. We had the best OL and we fired our coach for politics

 

Let's be clear about Gugs....

 

One,  I wouldn't say it was definitely politics.    Nothing has been made clear.    Doubt it was one issue since he did a good job.   The one incident doesn't seem enough.    I suspect there's much more to the story.

 

Second,  he's been fired, or not re-hired from almost every job he's ever had.    It's not just a Colts thing.

 

[NewColtsFan]

5 hours ago, csmopar said:

that’s been my one big complaint thus far under Reich. Like why the hell would you go and do that

 

Why would you have one big complaint over one firing?   It's not like it's a constant thing.   And I seriously doubt Gugs got fired over his treatment of one player.    All the OL spoke very highly of Gugs.    He did a good job.    Since Gugs has a long track record of either being fired or not re-hired everywhere he's been,  I doubt it was one incident that got him fired.   And these things stay in-house.

 

People here (speaking of others) acting like they know the full story is comical...

[csmopar]

1 minute ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Why would you have one big complaint over one firing?   It's not like it's a constant thing.   And I seriously doubt Gugs got fired over his treatment of one player.    All the OL spoke very highly of Gugs.    He did a good job.    Since Gugs has a long track record of either being fired or not re-hired everywhere he's been,  I doubt it was one incident that got him fired.   And these things stay in-house.

 

People here (speaking of others) acting like they know the full story is comical...

My point was, it’s my one criticism of Frank that he would go that route. Otherwise, I’m happy with Frank Reich. 
 

and I never said I knew the whole story. Which again, goes back to my issue with the whole thing. 

[NewColtsFan]

4 minutes ago, csmopar said:

My point was, it’s my one criticism of Frank that he would go that route. Otherwise, I’m happy with Frank Reich. 
 

and I never said I knew the whole story. Which again, goes back to my issue with the whole thing. 

 

I know you never said that....    again, speaking of other posters who appear to think they do.    Sorry,  didn't mean to lump you in with them.

 

My point with Gugs....    is I think it would take much more than one incident with one player to get a coach who has done a good job to get fired.    I think it would take much more than that.    If Ballard thought Reich was making a big mistake,  I think he would've tried to save the situation.    A good OL coach is worth his weight in gold.    I doubt we got rid of him lightly.

 

Just saying...

 

4 hours ago, Nickster said:

 

 

It's probably the professionals he coached not wanting to play for him would be my guess. 

 

For what it's worth,  the Colts OL said nothing but good things publicly about Gugs.     If they had anything negative,  they've kept it behind closed doors.

[Nickster]

4 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

I know you never said that....    again, speaking of other posters who appear to think they do.    Sorry,  didn't mean to lump you in with them.

 

My point with Gugs....    is I think it would take much more than one incident with one player to get a coach who has done a good job to get fired.    I think it would take much more than that.    If Ballard thought Reich was making a big mistake,  I think he would've tried to save the situation.    A good OL coach is worth his weight in gold.    I doubt we got rid of him lightly.

 

Just saying...

 

 

For what it's worth,  the Colts OL said nothing but good things publicly about Gugs.     If they had anything negative,  they've kept it behind closed doors.

I think the Colts keep a lot of things behind closed doors.  It seems odd this dude is at Tech with the seeming success he had in the league like you said.

 

Iw

[NewColtsFan]

1 minute ago, Nickster said:

I think the Colts keep a lot of things behind closed doors.  It seems odd this dude is at Tech with the seeming success he had in the league like you said.

 

Iw

 

He's a good coach.   Not disputing that at all.

 

But he appears to wear out his welcome everywhere he goes.   There's a clear pattern here.

 

[Jackie Daytona]

8 hours ago, EastStreet said:

Yup. The guy that exuded big-ugly-nasty, and was the guy who quickly figured out and architected an OL rotation that surprised a lot of folks, got can'd for not being nice...... 

 

so freaking soft..... 

That amazing OL coach got fired from his next two NFL gigs after a single season....so hired....fired after one season THREE straight years.... And is now coaching as an assistant at Some directional school in Louisiana or something....so yeah, he wasn't nearly as good as all the armchair GMs would have people believe.

[EastStreet]

33 minutes ago, SchlicterSZN said:

That amazing OL coach got fired from his next two NFL gigs after a single season....so hired....fired after one season THREE straight years.... And is now coaching as an assistant at Some directional school in Louisiana or something....so yeah, he wasn't nearly as good as all the armchair GMs would have people believe.

 

He was hired on as a stop gap mid season. The writing was on the wall when hired due to the media outrage machine. The fact he was hired even after the media stuff, tells you he is a very good coach. 

 

Directional school? You're showing your rear here.... LaTech is a small school, but classed as a research institute, and ranked as the best university in LA... They're from a small conf yes, but their FB team has had pretty decent success. They popped into the FBS rankings, and also had the FBS's longest bowl winning streak up until last year when they lost. The also have a history of hiring coaches like Skip Holtz, Dooley, etc.. The likely needed a guy to get their trenches back to form, as they were one of the best about 5 years ago, and have faded big time on the OL.

[Shive]

21 hours ago, EastStreet said:

Yup. The guy that exuded big-ugly-nasty, and was the guy who quickly figured out and architected an OL rotation that surprised a lot of folks, got can'd for not being nice...... 

 

so freaking soft..... 

I'm not sure why people assume that yelling and being a jerk = effective leader/coach. I think people often conflate being aggressive and abrasive with being assertive. You can be an assertive person without yelling at people or "speaking your mind"/no filter and that doesn't mean that you're "nice".

 

As a coach, yelling at your players or saying disparaging remarks to them isn't effective communication and will either frustrate them or make them tune you out. On the other hand, being assertive and calling people on their stuff is effective. Keeping people accountable to a standard is effective.

 

In the case with Gug, there's the Good situation, but you also have to consider that there needs to be a productive workplace dynamic and if he's disrupting that by treating other coaches with the same abrasiveness he treats players with, he probably wasn't doing anything to help himself. He got great results with the OL, which tells me that he's most likely a very toxic person that people just don't care to be around.

 

12 hours ago, EastStreet said:

He was hired on as a stop gap mid season. The writing was on the wall when hired due to the media outrage machine.

Can you specifically reference the media outrage you've mentioned a few times? I don't recall a big deal being made when he was hired mid-season other than that the team had fired it's OL coach mid-season.

[EastStreet]

58 minutes ago, Shive said:

I'm not sure why people assume that yelling and being a jerk = effective leader/coach. I think people often conflate being aggressive and abrasive with being assertive. You can be an assertive person without yelling at people or "speaking your mind"/no filter and that doesn't mean that you're "nice".

Football is not a boardroom. In theory you're 100% correct. In practice, people are motivated in different ways. Hard driver type coaches typically and IMO get better results in the trenches. ND is now facing a similar slide in OL since Harry left for the Bears. Instead of pumping out nasty guys like Stanley, Q, McGlintchey, Martin, etc, we're putting out softer and lesser OLs.

 

58 minutes ago, Shive said:

 

As a coach, yelling at your players or saying disparaging remarks to them isn't effective communication and will either frustrate them or make them tune you out. On the other hand, being assertive and calling people on their stuff is effective. Keeping people accountable to a standard is effective.

Guessing you never played FB. And you don't have to disparaging to be a hard ace.

58 minutes ago, Shive said:

 

In the case with Gug, there's the Good situation, but you also have to consider that there needs to be a productive workplace dynamic and if he's disrupting that by treating other coaches with the same abrasiveness he treats players with, he probably wasn't doing anything to help himself. He got great results with the OL, which tells me that he's most likely a very toxic person that people just don't care to be around.

Yet he keep getting hired. IMO, we'll never know the truth of what happened, but once the allegation was made, and it got out, he was a goner regardless. Miami hired him as an interim. Then NYG hired him last year. And NYG wanted to keep him. He's the one that bolted this time. 

58 minutes ago, Shive said:

 

Can you specifically reference the media outrage you've mentioned a few times? I don't recall a big deal being made when he was hired mid-season other than that the team had fired it's OL coach mid-season.

Just google his name and Denzelle good. When he was hired by Miami ESPN went all outraged on NFL LIve. ESPN is an outrage machine every day though. Several articles out too at the time. Cali (Raiders) papers/sites as well. The NY rags ran stories when NYG hired him. 

[Shive]

8 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Football is not a boardroom. In theory you're 100% correct. In practice, people are motivated in different ways. Hard driver type coaches typically and IMO get better results in the trenches. ND is now facing a similar slide in OL since Harry left for the Bears. Instead of pumping out nasty guys like Stanley, Q, McGlintchey, Martin, etc, we're putting out softer and lesser OLs.

Agree to disagree. 

 

8 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Guessing you never played FB. And you don't have to disparaging to be a hard ace.

I definitely did. You would've probably loved my head coach. He spartan kicked by best friend in the facemask for laughing when he said something to him. We were a good team, but not because he was a good coach. More that he had solid assistants and we had the perfect personnel to run his Wing T scheme.

 

8 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Yet he keep getting hired. IMO, we'll never know the truth of what happened, but once the allegation was made, and it got out, he was a goner regardless. Miami hired him as an interim. Then NYG hired him last year. And NYG wanted to keep him. He's the one that bolted this time.

He's most likely getting hired based off of his results on the field. From what I've been able to find, he didn't bolt from NYG, they just couldn't come to terms on a new contract.

 

8 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Just google his name and Denzelle good. When he was hired by Miami ESPN went all outraged on NFL LIve. ESPN is an outrage machine every day though. Several articles out too at the time. Cali (Raiders) papers/sites as well. The NY rags ran stories when NYG hired him. 

I did and get a lot of articles from when he was fired mentioning it, but nothing else other than he was hired by other teams. I think you're putting way too much of him not sticking with a team on "media outrage" instead of internal staff dynamics.

[EastStreet]

11 minutes ago, Shive said:

Agree to disagree. 

 

I definitely did. You would've probably loved my head coach. He spartan kicked by best friend in the facemask for laughing when he said something to him. We were a good team, but not because he was a good coach. More that he had solid assistants and we had the perfect personnel to run his Wing T scheme.

I was at a HS program that won a lot of States, and continues too. The program always took on the demeanor of the coach. When they went soft in the coaching area, the program declined. And all the better programs in my day had hard ace coaches. My best friends uncle at the time retired with several state HS records. Still runs big camps. Things have changed certainly, but soft just doesn't work well.

11 minutes ago, Shive said:

He's most likely getting hired based off of his results on the field. From what I've been able to find, he didn't bolt from NYG, they just couldn't come to terms on a new contract.

He left because he wanted a longer term, and was offered better at LaT

11 minutes ago, Shive said:

 

I did and get a lot of articles from when he was fired mentioning it, but nothing else other than he was hired by other teams. I think you're putting way too much of him not sticking with a team on "media outrage" instead of internal staff dynamics.

It definitely impacted his time in Miami. My friends in Naples said Ross loved him, but it was a pain in the optics.

[Shive]

28 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

I was at a HS program that won a lot of States, and continues too. The program always took on the demeanor of the coach. When they went soft in the coaching area, the program declined. And all the better programs in my day had hard ace coaches. My best friends uncle at the time retired with several state HS records. Still runs big camps. Things have changed certainly, but soft just doesn't work well.

I think it all depends on what you define "soft" as.

[Nadine]

1 hour ago, Shive said:

23 hours ago, EastStreet said:

 

I'm not sure why people assume that yelling and being a jerk = effective leader/coach.

Agree

Loud, obnoxious, and pushy people tend to get put in leadership positions, not just in sports.  More often than not from what I've seen they are ineffective and roundly disliked

 

I mean how many of us think that if someone is a jerk, it's helpful?

 

I'm all for expectations but this notion that somebody is either a jerk or he cannot coach is nonsense

[Mitch Connors]

17 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

He's a good coach.   Not disputing that at all.

 

But he appears to wear out his welcome everywhere he goes.   There's a clear pattern here.

 

Bingo. A great coach doesn't equal a great employee. Being tough with players may be acceptable but if you're unable to turn that behavior off when dealing with your superiors and/or peers  you're asking for trouble. 

 

Not saying that happened here but I'm sure we've all seen successful people let go because of their attitudes.

[EastStreet]

10 minutes ago, Nadine said:

Agree

Loud, obnoxious, and pushy people tend to get put in leadership positions, not just in sports.  More often than not from what I've seen they are ineffective and roundly disliked

 

I mean how many of us think that if someone is a jerk, it's helpful?

 

I'm all for expectations but this notion that somebody is either a jerk or he cannot coach is nonsense

Lombardi was a yeller and authoritarian. Belichick is considered an ace hole. Two best NFL coaches ever.

And a lot of the guys that have nice demeanors at the press conferences are yellers and disciplinarians behind the scenes.

 

You don't have to be demeaning or disparaging to be "hard". But it's football. It's OK to yell, or tell someone they stink. 

[MPStack]

2 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Lombardi was a yeller and authoritarian. Belichick is considered an ace hole. Two best NFL coaches ever.

And a lot of the guys that have nice demeanors at the press conferences are yellers and disciplinarians behind the scenes.

 

You don't have to be demeaning or disparaging to be "hard". But it's football. It's OK to yell, or tell someone they stink. 

Bill Parcells was in the hurting feelings business. Great coach!

 

Enjoy reading his many quotes. 

[EastStreet]

1 minute ago, MPStack said:

Bill Parcells was in the hurting feelings business. Great coach!

 

Enjoy reading his many quotes. 

Yup. Shula and Landry didn't play either. 

I could go on and on. Same for college coaches. Saban lol.. I've seen practice vids of him going off from a bud who has access every year to practices. He's hilarious. He's cleaned it up a lot though. Feelings and all...

[MPStack]

4 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Yup. Shula and Landry didn't play either. 

I could go on and on. Same for college coaches. Saban lol.. I've seen practice vids of him going off from a bud who has access every year to practices. He's hilarious. He's cleaned it up a lot though. Feelings and all...

I remember Meshaun Johnson b****ing in the Pro Bowl years ago about be asked to return punts. He said, I would only do that for Coach Parcell’s. That’s respect. 

[Nadine]

15 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Lombardi was a yeller and authoritarian. Belichick is considered an ace hole. Two best NFL coaches ever.

And a lot of the guys that have nice demeanors at the press conferences are yellers and disciplinarians behind the scenes.

 

You don't have to be demeaning or disparaging to be "hard". But it's football. It's OK to yell, or tell someone they stink. 

Some people who yell and demean people are terrible at what they do

correlation does not equal causation

Losing your temper is not a badge of honor that is proof of greatness for fans, players, or coaches or anyone really

 

I was watching a program about Mohammed Ali.  He was loud and obnoxious in public and apparently behind the scenes he was one of the most caring human beings, always looking for a way to help

 

Authoritarians make everything about themselves.  Always have, always will.  Leaders lead

 

[EastStreet]

2 minutes ago, MPStack said:

I remember Meshaun Johnson b****ing in the Pro Bowl years ago about be asked to return punts. He said, I would only do that for Coach Parcell’s. That’s respect. 

Yup. Some of the hardest coaches were the most loved by their players.

My grade school coach was a terror lol. But I respected him, and learned a lot. 

My HS coach was a pure D, and never liked him. But he was a great coach.

I was involved in youth coaching for a while (just helping out). The dynamics and performances of teams were closely aligned with the demeanor of their coaches. And the kids with hard coaches looked like they really enjoyed kicking the snot out of other teams while getting yelled at by their coaches lol... 

 

[Shive]

Whelp, this is where we're at with this thread:

[Nickster]

13 minutes ago, Nadine said:

Some people who yell and demean people are terrible at what they do

correlation does not equal causation

Losing your temper is not a badge of honor that is proof of greatness for fans, players, or coaches or anyone really

 

I was watching a program about Mohammed Ali.  He was loud and obnoxious in public and apparently behind the scenes he was one of the most caring human beings, always looking for a way to help

 

Authoritarians make everything about themselves.  Always have, always will.  Leaders lead

 

Nadine you might be conflating authoritarians with an authoritarian coaching style.  Not necessarily the same thing.

 

Demeaning someone and yelling at someone aren't necessarily the same thing.

 

 

[EastStreet]

6 minutes ago, Nadine said:

Some people who yell and demean people are terrible at what they do

correlation does not equal causation

Losing your temper is not a badge of honor that is proof of greatness for fans, players, or coaches or anyone really

 

I was watching a program about Mohammed Ali.  He was loud and obnoxious in public and apparently behind the scenes he was one of the most caring human beings, always looking for a way to help

 

Authoritarians make everything about themselves.  Always have, always will.  Leaders lead

 

Some of the best, and most effective leaders in history were authoritarians. It's not a badge of honor, but it doesn't have to be. It's just fact. And they were indeed leaders. Perhaps not the kind you like, or prefer, but effective leaders nonetheless. 

 

The utopian view of all things just isn't reality. Biggest reason is that it fails to acknowledge many basic things innate to simple human nature. It's like training soldiers. You don't have "nice" guys training people to go "not be nice". Football, right or wrong, is a violent sport. Players are literally hitting each other for 3+ hours. That's just not nice.

 

[Nadine]

4 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Some of the best, and most effective leaders in history were authoritarians. It's not a badge of honor, but it doesn't have to be. It's just fact. And they were indeed leaders. Perhaps not the kind you like, or prefer, but effective leaders nonetheless. 

 

The utopian view of all things just isn't reality. Biggest reason is that it fails to acknowledge many basic things innate to simple human nature. It's like training soldiers. You don't have "nice" guys training people to go "not be nice". Football, right or wrong, is a violent sport. Players are literally hitting each other for 3+ hours. That's just not nice.

 

Some of the worst human beings in history have been authoritarians and have caused an enormous amount of damage. They do it in a short amount of time and they tend to end poorly. Because in the end, their priorities are entirely about themselves. They tend to be unstable and lack self control. People who rule by fear are the worst kind of leader

 

You are idealizing authoritarians and that's just not reality. It's your version of football 'utopia'

 

I think that human beings can be violent and that football is a violent sport.  That doesn't mean you should be violent with the players.

 

I cannot say what style of leadership is best for a team but most of these players are self motivated to succeed.  If they're not, they don't last.

 

These are highly paid and trained professional athletes.

 

I find the whole argument that coaches need to yell tiresome.  It's like saying that booing helps the team to win.  It doesn't.  It just makes you feel better.

 

That's not to say that structure and expectations and consequences are not important.  They are.

 

I'm just tired of fans equating yelling and being a jerk with effective leadership

 

 

 

 

[PrincetonTiger]

9 minutes ago, Nadine said:

Some of the worst human beings in history have been authoritarians and have caused an enormous amount of damage. They do it in a short amount of time and they tend to end poorly. Because in the end, their priorities are entirely about themselves. They tend to be unstable and lack self control. People who rule by fear are the worst kind of leader

 

You are idealizing authoritarians and that's just not reality. It's your version of football 'utopia'

 

I think that human beings can be violent and that football is a violent sport.  That doesn't mean you should be violent with the players.

 

I cannot say what style of leadership is best for a team but most of these players are self motivated to succeed.  If they're not, they don't last.

 

These are highly paid and trained professional athletes.

 

I find the whole argument that coaches need to yell tiresome.  It's like saying that booing helps the team to win.  It doesn't.  It just makes you feel better.

 

That's not to say that structure and expectations and consequences are not important.  They are.

 

I'm just tired of fans equating yelling and being a jerk with effective leadership

 

 

 

 

 

  

[EastStreet]

6 minutes ago, Nadine said:

Some of the worst human beings in history have been authoritarians and have caused an enormous amount of damage. They do it in a short amount of time and they tend to end poorly. Because in the end, their priorities are entirely about themselves. They tend to be unstable and lack self control. People who rule by fear are the worst kind of leader

You are equating every authoritarian to evil. My grandfather was an authoritarian. He was far from evil. 

My godfather/uncle as well. Iron hand, wonderful heart.

You seem not to be able to differentiate. 

6 minutes ago, Nadine said:

You are idealizing authoritarians and that's just not reality. It's your version of football 'utopia'

I'm not idealizing anyone. I admire guys like Lombardi, who most see as the best coach of all time.

 

6 minutes ago, Nadine said:

I think that human beings can be violent and that football is a violent sport.  That doesn't mean you should be violent with the players.

Who is being violent with players?

6 minutes ago, Nadine said:

I cannot say what style of leadership is best for a team but most of these players are self motivated to succeed.  If they're not, they don't last.

All players that make it to the NFL have a skill set that got them there. Some guys who were pushed by their coaches hard in college end up washing out when things aren't as structured or demanding. And some who had less demanding coaches in college do better when they get to the NFL and have a demanding coach. 

 

In short, different people respond to different things. And again, you don't have to be disparaging or demeaning, to be an authoritarian, disciplinarian, or simply a demanding yeller type.

6 minutes ago, Nadine said:

 

These are highly paid and trained professional athletes.

 

I find the whole argument that coaches need to yell tiresome.  It's like saying that booing helps the team to win.  It doesn't.  It just makes you feel better.

Nobody is saying coaches need to yell. But those who do yell, shouldn't be labeled as evil doing meanies. There are still plenty of yellers out there, and I'd guess more on the trench units than others. 

6 minutes ago, Nadine said:

 

That's not to say that structure and expectations and consequences are not important.  They are.

 

I'm just tired of fans equating yelling and being a jerk with effective leadership

Nobody is equating yelling/jerk to effective leadership. I'm just not going to equate yelling/jerk to ineffective either. Dungy was semi-effective while being soft spoken. Weeb Ewbank, possibly the greatest Colt's coach of all time, was a yeller. 

[Nadine]

10 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

You are equating every authoritarian to evil. My grandfather was an authoritarian. He was far from evil. 

My godfather/uncle as well. Iron hand, wonderful heart.

You seem not to be able to differentiate. 

I'm not idealizing anyone. I admire guys like Lombardi, who most see as the best coach of all time.

 

Who is being violent with players?

All players that make it to the NFL have a skill set that got them there. Some guys who were pushed by their coaches hard in college end up washing out when things aren't as structured or demanding. And some who had less demanding coaches in college do better when they get to the NFL and have a demanding coach. 

 

In short, different people respond to different things. And again, you don't have to be disparaging or demeaning, to be an authoritarian, disciplinarian, or simply a demanding yeller type.

Nobody is saying coaches need to yell. But those who do yell, shouldn't be labeled as evil doing meanies. There are still plenty of yellers out there, and I'd guess more on the trench units than others. 

Nobody is equating yelling/jerk to effective leadership. I'm just not going to equate yelling/jerk to ineffective either. Dungy was semi-effective while being soft spoken. Weeb Ewbank, possibly the greatest Colt's coach of all time, was a yeller. 

mmm

I think that coaches need a lot of qualities.  They need to be able to handle a lot different responsibilities as they are more or less the hub of the team and interacting with everyone. They have far more to deal with than either highschool or college coaches.  They need to be strategic, able to select the right personnel, able to delegate, able to monitor, able to communicate, able to keep their cool and think.

 

You mentioned Belichick.  I think that what likely makes him a great coach is attention to detail. 

 

Dungy was a great coach.

 

I don't dismiss someone because they are a jerk, I don't idolize them either. I think a lot of people do idolize jerks

[Shive]

20 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

All players that make it to the NFL have a skill set that got them there. Some guys who were pushed by their coaches hard in college end up washing out when things aren't as structured or demanding. And some who had less demanding coaches in college do better when they get to the NFL and have a demanding coach. 

Demanding only means that they have high standards and expectations that they hold their players to. There's nothing wrong with that. What we're saying is that there has been and currently is this assumption that because coaches like Pagano or Reich don't yell and scream at their players, they're soft and ineffective coaches.

 

It's all about consistently holding your players to a high standard, holding them accountable to that standard, and calling them on their stuff when they make excuses. Again, that's being assertive, not "nice" or "soft".

 

I'm still curious about how you would define being "soft".

  

20 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Nobody is equating yelling/jerk to effective leadership. I'm just not going to equate yelling/jerk to ineffective either.

On the flipside, you've categorized coaches that don't yell as "soft".

[Nadine]

1 minute ago, Shive said:

 

It's all about consistently holding your players to a high standard, holding them accountable to that standard, and calling them on their stuff when they make excuses.

I would think the hardest thing for a coach is over riding player self interest in favor of TEAM.

Most of these guys don't have long careers.  They need to do well for themselves fast.

A great coach gets them all on the same page

no idea how they do that.  But I don't think it's yelling

[Jason_]

On 9/22/2021 at 3:07 PM, jvan1973 said:

I guess the entire NFL disagrees with you

 

So would anyone with a conscience. 

[EastStreet]

1 minute ago, Nadine said:

mmm

I think that coaches need a lot of qualities.  They need to be able to handle a lot different responsibilities as they are more or less the hub of the team and interacting with everyone. They have far more to deal with than either highschool or college coaches.  They need to be strategic, able to select the right personnel, able to delegate, able to monitor, able to communicate, able to keep their cool and think.

 

You mentioned Belichick.  I think that what likely makes him a great coach is attention to detail. 

 

Dungy was a great coach.

 

I don't dismiss someone because they are a jerk, I don't idolize them either. I think a lot of people do idolize jerks

 

Belichick is a perfectionist. He's also all business, and lacks emotion when it comes to personnel. He has a lot of qualities people find admirable, and a lot of qualities people find abrasive. He's none the less a great coach and effective leader.

 

Like I mentioned by Grandfather and Uncle/Godfather. Absolutely authoritarians. And neither were all about themselves. They were two of the most selfless people I've ever known. One especially was a devout Catholic, and tireless giver to his family, church, and community. I think you really should re-examine your definition of authoritarian, as you seem to equate it to what sounds like a tyrant, or even sociopath lol. 

 

I don't really idolize anyone. I do admire some. And some of those people have flaws. Growing up in an ethnic Catholic neighborhood, I did idolize JFK in my early life... and later found out he was full of flaws, and his family did some pretty bad things. Funny how things change.

[PrincetonTiger]

I grew up around all kinds of coaches and/or high level athletes   

   I learned very early to not idolize those who were abusive

6 minutes ago, Nadine said:

I would think the hardest thing for a coach is over riding player self interest in favor of TEAM.

Most of these guys don't have long careers.  They need to do well for themselves fast.

A great coach gets them all on the same page

no idea how they do that.  But I don't think it's yelling

It can be very difficult