Interesting nugget on why colts didn’t pursue Stafford

[Jason_]

3 hours ago, superrep1967 said:

They must think like we do because they didn't bring him in

 

But I guarantee you his 'playoff record' did not factor into their decision. 

[DynaMike]

8 hours ago, PrincetonTiger said:

Haha I love that kid! Go Pens!

 

PS: Sorry I don't have anything more substantial to add.

 

[shasta519]

10 hours ago, Superman said:

 

I don't think there's a throw that Stafford is incapable of making, in any offense. He would have fit just fine in Reich's offense.

Not only that, but look at that WR room. You’ve got 3 guys that are 6’4’’. 

 

And Stafford had a lot of success with WRs like that. 

[luv_pony_express]

16 hours ago, Myles said:

I would have preferred Stafford over Wentz.   But the Colts would have had to give up allot for him.  Rams gave Detroit two 1st round picks, a 3rd round pick and a starting QB.

Yeah, the juice just wasn’t worth the squeeze.  Stafford is a really good QB.  But the value of everything has to be measured against its price.

[EastStreet]

Rams went hard and fast at Stafford early (IIRC it was done in late January). Just not sure we were ever in the game enough for anyone to contemplate signing off or not... 

 

I also have a feeling the Wentz to Indy trade was being kicked around early between the teams too. IIRC Sirianni was hired in mid January, but talks could have started before that. 

[PrincetonTiger]

8 hours ago, DynaMike said:

Haha I love that kid! Go Pens!

 

PS: Sorry I don't have anything more substantial to add.

 

 Chicago Blackhawks but I don’t get to see many games

[NannyMcafee]

Wentz has gotten his team to the playoffs already once after that it got significantly harder for him to do so with injury and organizational failure. 

 

Stafford has shown time and again he can't elevate his team enough to do so. Not sure who the better QB is at this point. One is younger. 

[PrincetonTiger]

6 minutes ago, NannyMcafee said:

Wentz has gotten his team to the playoffs already once after that it got significantly harder for him to do so with injury and organizational failure. 

 

Stafford has shown time and again he can't elevate his team enough to do so. Not sure who the better QB is at this point. One is younger. 

One didn’t cost as much either

[DougDew]

2 hours ago, EastStreet said:

Rams went hard and fast at Stafford early (IIRC it was done in late January). Just not sure we were ever in the game enough for anyone to contemplate signing off or not... 

 

I also have a feeling the Wentz to Indy trade was being kicked around early between the teams too. IIRC Sirianni was hired in mid January, but talks could have started before that. 

Yeah, all that had to happen was for Philly to signal to Ballard that Wentz was going to be made available, and that would influence with what vigor the Qb options would be pursued.

 

Probably happened with Ertz too to a degree, but nothing came of it.

[EastStreet]

1 minute ago, DougDew said:

Yeah, all that had to happen was for Philly to signal to Ballard that Wentz was going to be made available, and that would influence with what vigor the Qb options would be pursued.

 

Probably happened with Ertz too to a degree, but nothing came of it.

 

Totally spitballing.... but here's what I think happened...

 

Wentz says he wants out. Likely wants to go the Colts anyway.

Eagles hire Sirianni in part to salvage the Wentz relationship.

Wentz is clear that he wants out regardless of coach...

Sirianni calls Reich... 

Sirianni tries to drive up price with Bears... 

 

[EastStreet]

4 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Probably happened with Ertz too to a degree, but nothing came of it.

 

The Ertz situation is interesting. Goedert is getting more hype than Ertz.... 

 

I still think they might just release him and save the 8.5M lol... I bet the Saints have called them.

[Mr. Irrelevant]

9 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

 

Totally spitballing.... but here's what I think happened...

 

Wentz says he wants out. Likely wants to go the Colts anyway.

Eagles hire Sirianni in part to salvage the Wentz relationship.

Wentz is clear that he wants out regardless of coach...

Sirianni calls Reich... 

Sirianni tries to drive up price with Bears... 

 

Maybe…

 

Look, we all know Mr. Irsay. All it took was one passionate speech by Reich about the potential of having Wentz and it was probably a done deal in Irsay’s mind. Not sure Ballard would even be able to talk him out of it again at that point! 

[EastStreet]

4 minutes ago, Mr. Irrelevant said:

Maybe…

 

Look, we all know Mr. Irsay. All it took was one passionate speech by Reich about the potential of having Wentz and it was probably a done deal in Irsay’s mind. Not sure Ballard would even be able to talk him out of it again at that point! 

I'm pretty sure Reich wanted him and pushed for him. I also think Ballard said "I'm supportive", and proceeded to set a redline in terms of draft capital. The draft capital given was a bargain if it works out. Let's just hope it works out.

[throwing BBZ]

12 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

 

The Ertz situation is interesting. Goedert is getting more hype than Ertz.... 

 

I still think they might just release him and save the 8.5M lol... I bet the Saints have called them.

 

 It's a safe bet CB and his staff have spied on Ertz if they have interest.
Many of us like Gransons future prospects. But if CB thinks our potential THIS season is go to the top a move for Ertz has to be considered.

[EastStreet]

8 minutes ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

 It's a safe bet CB and his staff have spied on Ertz if they have interest.
Many of us like Gransons future prospects. But if CB thinks our potential THIS season is go to the top a move for Ertz has to be considered.

I'm sure the two teams have chatted. But I'm pretty sure Ballard wasn't going to offer much given we already owe them a pick next year. I thought for a while perhaps they'd work out a personnel trade. 

 

How about Doyle + Patmon for Ertz?

[shasta519]

1 hour ago, EastStreet said:

 

Totally spitballing.... but here's what I think happened...

 

Wentz says he wants out. Likely wants to go the Colts anyway.

Eagles hire Sirianni in part to salvage the Wentz relationship.

Wentz is clear that he wants out regardless of coach...

Sirianni calls Reich... 

Sirianni tries to drive up price with Bears... 

 

 

 

• December - Wentz gets benched. He wants out. Through back channels, Reich becomes aware of this and that Wentz wants to come to Indy. Reich and Ballard begin having conversations about trading for Wentz.
• January 11 - PHI fires Pederson in a final attempt (or what is meant to appear to fans as a final attempt) to get Wentz to stay. Wentz still wants out. Internal discussions with Reich and Ballard get serious and negotiations with Roseman begin.
• January 21 - After extended interviews, PHI hires Sirianni. A somewhat surprising move, but it makes sense because the key for Roseman was hiring a HC who was FULLY onboard with eventually trading Wentz. And who better than the OC from the team whose HC gave him his shot. 
• January 29 - In a move that is barely covered, IND hires Press Taylor, Wentz's QB coach and good friend. At this point, it should have been obvious that it was WHEN not if they would trade for Wentz.
• February 18 - Wentz is traded to IND for a couple of picks.

 

[Patrick Miller]

I'm just not sold on Wentz. He's going to have to show me.

[EastStreet]

16 minutes ago, shasta519 said:

 

 

• December - Wentz gets benched. He wants out. Through back channels, Reich becomes aware of this and that Wentz wants to come to Indy. Reich and Ballard begin having conversations about trading for Wentz.
• January 11 - PHI fires Pederson in a final attempt (or what is meant to appear to fans as a final attempt) to get Wentz to stay. Wentz still wants out. Internal discussions with Reich and Ballard get serious and negotiations with Roseman begin.
• January 21 - After extended interviews, PHI hires Sirianni. A somewhat surprising move, but it makes sense because the key for Roseman was hiring a HC who was FULLY onboard with eventually trading Wentz. And who better than the OC from the team whose HC gave him his shot. 
• January 29 - In a move that is barely covered, IND hires Press Taylor, Wentz's QB coach and good friend. At this point, it should have been obvious that it was WHEN not if they would trade for Wentz.
• February 18 - Wentz is traded to IND for a couple of picks.

 

Agree with everything except the 21st

[DougDew]

1 hour ago, EastStreet said:

 

Totally spitballing.... but here's what I think happened...

 

Wentz says he wants out. Likely wants to go the Colts anyway.

Eagles hire Sirianni in part to salvage the Wentz relationship.

Wentz is clear that he wants out regardless of coach...

Sirianni calls Reich... 

Sirianni tries to drive up price with Bears... 

 

Not sure about your second line.  "In part" I suppose yes, but how much did Philly FO really want to salvage the relationship with Wentz? 

 

They may have wanted a HC to groom Hurts to run the Philly/Frank offense...the offense that got them to the SB, and Sirianni was that link to that offense.  

 

I think the Philly FO had it set they were going to make Wentz available long before they hired Siranni.  I don't think there was much attempt at all to retain him.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

Because Wentz made it known that he wanted to play for the Colts we were able to get him for a lot less then we would of otherwise. I think other teams kind of stayed out of it because they knew Wentz wanted to come here. Why trade for someone who didn’t want to play there.

 

 

[Mr. Irrelevant]

12 minutes ago, shasta519 said:

 

• January 29 - In a move that is barely covered, IND hires Press Taylor, Wentz's QB coach and good friend. At this point, it should have been obvious that it was WHEN not if they would trade for Wentz.

 

Uhhh, nice piece of information there! I didn’t know that. 
 

 

[EastStreet]

1 minute ago, DougDew said:

Not sure about your second line.  "In part" I suppose yes, but how much did Philly FO really want to salvage the relationship with Wentz? 

From most reports, Wentz wanted to leave, regardless of what Philly did/said.... Philly tried to convince him to stay on multiple occasions. 

1 minute ago, DougDew said:

They may have wanted a HC to groom Hurts to run the Philly/Frank offense...the offense that got them to the SB, and Sirianni was that link to that offense.  

It was Pederson's O.

1 minute ago, DougDew said:

I think the Philly FO had it set they were going to make Wentz available long before they hired Siranni.

IDK

[DougDew]

8 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

From most reports, Wentz wanted to leave, regardless of what Philly did/said.... Philly tried to convince him to stay on multiple occasions. 

It was Pederson's O.

IDK

Petersen was fired and Frank was not available.  So the most logical way to continue with that O is to hire Frank's OC.  That's the best way to groom Hurts to take over.  In part, its also the most seamless transition and the best way to hold his hand and help him.

 

Philly wanted Wentz out the moment they committed to Hurts in the second round.  What he said/they said is a bunch of smoke, to not acknowledge that early commitment.

 

I knew they were not going to draft a QB last spring, despite media smoke.  And, they traded up to get Hurts a shiny new WR.  Subsidizing Hurts' talent early has been the plan for a while.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

I think the biggest thing with Stafford was his age. If your going to go get someone at that age you might as well draft a young QB. I think they felt with Wentz that he was young enough to be here awhile and be the franchise guy for a lot longer then Stafford would. Reich also might of seen stuff on tape he didn’t like from Stafford. They also probably knew when Wentz got benched he might be available.
 

 

[EastStreet]

7 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Petersen was fired and Frank was not available.  So the most logical way to continue with that O is to hire Frank's OC.  That's the best way to groom Hurts to take over.  In part, its also the most seamless transition and the best way to hold his hand and help him.

I don't see a lot of similarity in Philly's O in 2017ish, to Reich's O with the Colts.

And not sure Sirianni's O at Philly will be like Frank's O here in Indy.

Quote

 

Philly wanted Wentz out the moment they committed to Hurts in the second round.  What he said/they said is a bunch of smoke, to not acknowledge that early commitment.

Meh.. Hurtz didn't look great last year, and hasn't looked great in pre-season. 

I love him in college, but IMO, Philly will be shopping for QB next draft.

And gonna bet they regret not taking Fields.

Quote

 

I knew they were not going to draft a QB last spring, despite media smoke.  And, they traded up to get Hurts a shiny new WR.  Subsidizing Hurts' talent early has been the plan for a while.

My hot take prediction is that Hurtz will not be a top 16 QB this year, and Wentz will be top 10ish..

[shasta519]

37 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

Agree with everything except the 21st

 

That was the date of the article I saw for the Sirianni hiring. That decision could have honestly been made earlier.

 

Oh you meant...WHY they hired Sirianni? Yeah I added that. Had PHI hired McDaniels (the other finalist), there is no way Wentz gets traded to IND though. Dude is a snake.

[EastStreet]

9 minutes ago, shasta519 said:

 

That was the date of the article I saw for the Sirianni hiring. That decision could have honestly been made earlier.

 

Oh you meant...WHY they hired Sirianni? Yeah I added that. Had PHI hired McDaniels (the other finalist), there is no way Wentz gets traded to IND though. Dude is a snake.

My personal opinion is they wanted to salvage Wentz, but moved quickly once they realized he wanted out regardless. And the pieces were simply in place to make it happen at that point. And they did try to at least shop him to others. Honestly I'm glad the Bears things floundered. I think he'll do well here.

[shasta519]

37 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Not sure about your second line.  "In part" I suppose yes, but how much did Philly FO really want to salvage the relationship with Wentz? 

 

They may have wanted a HC to groom Hurts to run the Philly/Frank offense...the offense that got them to the SB, and Sirianni was that link to that offense.  

 

I think the Philly FO had it set they were going to make Wentz available long before they hired Siranni.  I don't think there was much attempt at all to retain him.

 

I think they wanted to look like they were trying to retain Wentz. Because then the narrative turned into "Wentz just wanted out and there wasn't anything we could do." That was also probably the truth anyways (but it at least this way more responsibility was on him than PHI).

 

But there's also a chance that the PHI brass's desire to move on from Wentz could have started much earlier in 2020 (possibly even before the 2020 draft when they took Hurts). I doubt anybody in that org saw 2020 being the all-around disaster it ended up being.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

9 minutes ago, EastStreet said:

My personal opinion is they wanted to salvage Wentz, but moved quickly once they realized he wanted out regardless. And the pieces were simply in place to make it happen at that point. And they did try to at least shop him to others. Honestly I'm glad the Bears things floundered. I think he'll do well here.

I think from everything we have heard if Wentz had become a Bear Fields  might of ended up a Colt. All the local media guys have said the organization loved Fields. He is totally a Reich guy. Accuracy and toughness.

[DougDew]

16 minutes ago, shasta519 said:

 

I think they wanted to look like they were trying to retain Wentz. Because then the narrative turned into "Wentz just wanted out and there wasn't anything we could do." That was also probably the truth anyways (but it at least this way more responsibility was on him than PHI).

 

But there's also a chance that the PHI brass's desire to move on from Wentz could have started much earlier in 2020 (possibly even before the 2020 draft when they took Hurts). I doubt anybody in that org saw 2020 being the all-around disaster it ended up being.

Yeah, if you here stories about the Philly locker room, its sounds like the older players liked Wentz but the younger players wanted somebody different.  Things fell into place with Hurts being available so that helped to make a decision about Wentz.  I don't think there was much interest in retaining a guy who half the locker room did not want, and that seemed to be pretty early in 2020 if not before. 

 

I'm sure there was mutual unspoken attraction between the Colts and Philly over the Wentz situation and was probably in the backs of each FOs minds for while.  Not that Philly would just give him away though, the price had to be in the ballpark of good. 

[shasta519]

Just now, EastStreet said:

My personal opinion is they wanted to salvage Wentz, but moved quickly once they realized he wanted out regardless. And the pieces were simply in place to make it happen at that point. And they did try to at least shop him to others. Honestly I'm glad the Bears things floundered. I think he'll do well here.

 

My two cents. The Bears involvement didn't founder, it never really existed, outside of your typical offseason due diligence and the DeFilippo connection . Reports came out that CHI passed on Wentz early and never even made an offer. And it makes sense that Pace and Nagy had little interest in staking their last chance in CHI (and possibly last chance in that role with any NFL team for a while) on another bounceback QB, except one that had injury issues and was coming off a terrible season. That's a recipe for getting fired midseason if it goes wrong at all. Much better to gamble on drafting a QB, which will buy you more time (and that's exactly what happened).

 

There was likely some serious posturing from PHI and the media to make it seem like an organic process that just happened to end up with him traded to IND. But IND always made the most sense and I bet the framework of the deal was likely done fairly early on (after it was clear the Wentz wanted out). It would have taken some team getting dumb and blowing PHI out of the water to get them to go in a different direction.

[Four2itus]

I find it interesting, that a QB that we didn't choose, is still "interesting" to talk about. All good.....

 

 

[EastStreet]

5 minutes ago, shasta519 said:

 

My two cents. The Bears involvement didn't founder, it never really existed, outside of your typical offseason due diligence and the DeFilippo connection . Reports came out that CHI passed on Wentz early and never even made an offer. And it makes sense that Pace and Nagy had little interest in staking their last chance in CHI (and possibly last chance in that role with any NFL team for a while) on another bounceback QB, except one that had injury issues and was coming off a terrible season. That's a recipe for getting fired midseason if it goes wrong at all. Much better to gamble on drafting a QB, which will buy you more time (and that's exactly what happened).

 

There was likely some serious posturing from PHI and the media to make it seem like an organic process that just happened to end up with him traded to IND. But IND always made the most sense and I bet the framework of the deal was likely done fairly early on (after it was clear the Wentz wanted out). It would have taken some team getting dumb and blowing PHI out of the water to get them to go in a different direction.

Word was, that Wentz was clear he didn't want to go to Chicago, and Chicago new it. 

We'll never know the whole truth, but if I were a QB, the Bears are a bottom 5 QB destination.

 

I agree on the framework being set early. I think Ballard made an offer, the Eagles tried to smoke up some Chicago interest (and any other team) to drive the offer up, but ultimately had to settle for what Ballard was giving. My gut says Wentz told the Philly FO that he wanted to go to Indy, and only Indy. 

[shasta519]

4 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Yeah, if you here stories about the Philly locker room, its sounds like the older players liked Wentz but the younger players wanted somebody different.  Things fell into place with Hurts being available so that helped to make a decision about Wentz.  I don't think there was much interest in retaining a guy who half the locker room did not want, and that seemed to be pretty early in 2020 if not before. 

 

I'm sure there was mutual unspoken attraction between the Colts and Philly over the Wentz situation and was probably in the backs of each FOs minds for while.  Not that Philly would just give him away though, the price had to be in the ballpark of good. 

 

On that recent NFL agent survey in the Athletic, one of the agents said that Roseman is "always playing both sides at all times. He's not dishonest...he's a hedger..."

 

If Roseman knew the locker room was divided on Wentz and bringing in a new QB...then drafting Hurts is very much in character with that description. Hurts was a hedge move from a GM who knew he might need it. And it turned out he did. 

 

Roseman isn't a likable or trustworthy guy like Ballard. But I don't understand the hate he gets for this move. It was an untenable situation (that he didn't alone create) and he was able to actually extract some value out of it.

 

And if Hurts pans out, it doesn't really matter what Wentz does. Could absolutely end up being a great win/win move for both orgs. Just one of those things that had to happen. 

 

And while Roseman and Ballard seem like very different people, I think there is a lot of mutual respect between them (and the coaching staffs of course), which is a big reason why this deal was able to get done.

[Jackie Daytona]

19 hours ago, Fluke_33 said:

I’d prefer Stafford.  I’ve always thought he has an elite arm and is a gunslinger type.  Not as good as favre but similar type 

Arm, check.... Gunslinger mentality?  I dunno, is Wentz considered to take too many risks ala Luck/Favre style?  

[DougDew]

11 minutes ago, shasta519 said:

On that recent NFL agent survey in the Athletic, one of the agents said that Roseman is "always playing both sides at all times. He's not dishonest...he's a hedger..."

 

If Roseman knew the locker room was divided on Wentz and bringing in a new QB...then drafting Hurts is very much in character with that description. Hurts was a hedge move from a GM who knew he might need it. And it turned out he did. 

 

Roseman isn't a likable or trustworthy guy like Ballard. But I don't understand the hate he gets for this move. It was an untenable situation (that he didn't alone create) and he was able to actually extract some value out of it.

Its hard to say what someone means when they say there is a locker room issue.  Or that someone is "good for the locker room", like was said about JB.  Not sure what drives the division, or heals it.

 

The Colts don't seem to have these problems, and we've had plenty of QB stability questions the past few years.   Just wonder what goes on in Philly that created the "need" for Roseman to start hedging.  Seems like he precipitated it more than nipped it.

[Zoltan]

3 hours ago, EastStreet said:

 

Totally spitballing.... but here's what I think happened...

 

Wentz says he wants out. Likely wants to go the Colts anyway.

Eagles hire Sirianni in part to salvage the Wentz relationship.

Wentz is clear that he wants out regardless of coach...

Sirianni calls Reich... 

Sirianni tries to drive up price with Bears... 

 

 

Replace those last two with Howie Roseman and I think you got it. I remember when the eagles were searching for a new HC they said they wanted a young coach who didn't want any roster control because Roseman was gonna keep that.

 

 

30 minutes ago, shasta519 said:

 

On that recent NFL agent survey in the Athletic, one of the agents said that Roseman is "always playing both sides at all times. He's not dishonest...he's a hedger..."

 

If Roseman knew the locker room was divided on Wentz and bringing in a new QB...then drafting Hurts is very much in character with that description. Hurts was a hedge move from a GM who knew he might need it. And it turned out he did. 

 

Roseman isn't a likable or trustworthy guy like Ballard. But I don't understand the hate he gets for this move. It was an untenable situation (that he didn't alone create) and he was able to actually extract some value out of it.

 

And if Hurts pans out, it doesn't really matter what Wentz does. Could absolutely end up being a great win/win move for both orgs. Just one of those things that had to happen. 

 

And while Roseman and Ballard seem like very different people, I think there is a lot of mutual respect between them (and the coaching staffs of course), which is a big reason why this deal was able to get done.

 

It makes sense he isn't as likable or trusted between the fallout with Pederson, Wentz, Ertz, and those being the ones we know about there has been alot of contention with the Eagles Front Office. 

[Stephen]

23 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

You think Wentz is going to have a better year than Stafford?    Barring injury I think it’s highly unlikely.   The buzz out here is Stafford looks great. 

Definitely I do believe Wentz will be better than stafford

[Fluke_33]

31 minutes ago, SchlicterSZN said:

Arm, check.... Gunslinger mentality?  I dunno, is Wentz considered to take too many risks ala Luck/Favre style?  

I’m not sure.  I haven’t seen a lot of wentz but for the past 5 years I’ve been watching the colts at a friends house who is a lions fan so we watch both.  
 

Stafford is definitely in the gunslinger mold. 

[shasta519]

39 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Its hard to say what someone means when they say there is a locker room issue.  Or that someone is "good for the locker room", like was said about JB.  Not sure what drives the division, or heals it.

 

The Colts don't seem to have these problems, and we've had plenty of QB stability questions the past few years.   Just wonder what goes on in Philly that created the "need" for Roseman to start hedging.  Seems like he precipitated it more than nipped it.

 

Might just be the default way Roseman operates. After all, it served him pretty damn well when they had Foles there.

 

I think it's hard to say Roseman precipitated it, at least what went down last year. There were columns written as early January 2019 (after the 2018 season) about locker room issues with Wentz. That offseason, Foles left in FA and that summer Roseman committed to Wentz with a massive contract. Should have been the end of it.

 

But it's not that crazy that the PHI GM could watch that 9-7 2019 season and feel like he might need to hedge moving forward. And if there were still any locker room division regarding Wentz, even more reason to do so.

 

But regardless of what happened behind the scenes, a GM drafting a QB in the 2nd round shouldn't cause the downfall of a young franchise QB in that fashion.