Zone doesn’t work when you can’t get pressure with 4

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

This goes back to how much that Turay injury killed us. The zone will get picked apart if you can’t get pressure with the front four.  

[jameszeigler834]

7 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

This goes back to how much that Turay injury killed us. The zone will get picked apart if you can’t get pressure with the front four.  

Zone sucks anyway.

[dodsworth]

The D line is priority #1 in the offseason, followed close behind is QB.

 

[Flash7]

8 minutes ago, Chloe6124 said:

This goes back to how much that Turay injury killed us. The zone will get picked apart if you can’t get pressure with the front four.  

My personal assessment (I could be wrong):

 

I would not put my hopes on Turay. He missed a ton of time in college due to injuries, and now a ton of time in the NFL. I'm not certain he has the body or ability to avoid injuries.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

Just now, Flash7 said:

My personal assessment (I could be wrong):

 

I would not put my hopes on Turay. He missed a ton of time in college due to injuries, and now a ton of time in the NFL. I'm not certain he has the body or ability to avoid injuries.

Yep. He looks very promising but injuries have followed him his entire playing career. It’s going to be a while before we get a stud at DE. When you don’t suck those players are high picks. We really need Banogu and Turay to stay healthy and improve.  

[SteelCityColt]

10 minutes ago, jameszeigler834 said:

Zone sucks anyway.

 

Yet 100% of NFL teams will use a form of zone defense at some point or another... including probably the last truly dominant D the league has seen. 

 

Please explain why you think "zone" "sucks".

[coltfaninnewyork]

6 minutes ago, dodsworth said:

The D line is priority #1 in the offseason, followed close behind is QB.

 

I think you got it backwards ,quarterback first .Turay will help if he can stay healthy which he hasn't shown he can do.

[Jackie Daytona]

What the hell happened to Lewis?  He looked good when he wasn't hurt last year, which wasn't often.... Now this year he's constantly out.... This guy just getting bad breaks, or just not the drive?

[Coffeedrinker]

6 minutes ago, Shafty138 said:

What the hell happened to Lewis?  He looked good when he wasn't hurt last year, which wasn't often.... Now this year he's constantly out.... This guy just getting bad breaks, or just not the drive?

Lewis has been getting more and more snaps... 11 week 12, 23 week 13.  I will be interested to see his counts yesterday.  He's been out there, he's just not very good.

[Superman]

Zone doesn't work when it's not played properly. It wasn't a lack of pressure, it was blown coverages, over and over again. 

[Jason_]

32 minutes ago, SteelCityColt said:

 

Yet 100% of NFL teams will use a form of zone defense at some point or another... including probably the last truly dominant D the league has seen. 

 

Please explain why you think "zone" "sucks".

 

Don't hold your breath.  He's been called out for saying that so many times but I've not once seen any kind of reasonable explanation.

[jameszeigler834]

33 minutes ago, SteelCityColt said:

 

Yet 100% of NFL teams will use a form of zone defense at some point or another... including probably the last truly dominant D the league has seen. 

 

Please explain why you think "zone" "sucks".

Keep in mind we played zone in the 4-3 for years in the Manning era the defense was rarely good always bottom half of the league in almost every stat category.

[ColtsLegacy]

18 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

Lewis has been getting more and more snaps... 11 week 12, 23 week 13.  I will be interested to see his counts yesterday.  He's been out there, he's just not very good.

 

26 snaps yesterday for Lewis.

[SteelCityColt]

1 minute ago, jameszeigler834 said:

Keep in mind we played zone in the 4-3 for years in the Manning era the defense was rarely good always bottom half of the league in almost every stat category.

 

1) This isn't an answer to the question, this is a "whataboutism".

2) "Zone" isn't a defense in itself. You're referring, most likely, to the days of Tampa 2. Which has also been used very successfully elsewhere, including by Dungy. Personnel>>>Scheme. 

 

So again, please explain why "zone" sucks, and if so why does every NFL team probably use it for at least one snap every game. 

[ColtsLegacy]

I was at the game yesterday and I was yelling at Hooker a lot for being out of place or a step slow to his spot. I've been noticing this a lot lately. Teams don't seem to be shying away from him anymore.

[SteelCityColt]

17 minutes ago, Superman said:

Zone doesn't work when it's not played properly. It wasn't a lack of pressure, it was blown coverages, over and over again. 

 

One thing I'd say in response to this and the OP is that any scheme or coverage will struggle without pressure. Man might be able to buy you some extra time to get home, but you need good DBs. Not the best example, but we had a half decent D with Davis et al in 2014 because we played some good man coverage. I'm sure we were nearly top 10 in sacks, mostly due to coverage sacks as the rush wasn't brilliant (no Mathis for one).

 

As you correctly say though, if there is a breakdown in communication and receivers aren't handed from zone to zone correctly there will be wide open throws available. The most egregious being CB to S handoffs gone wrong.

[Coffeedrinker]

10 minutes ago, ColtsLegacy said:

 

23 snaps yesterday for Lewis.

The same as week 13?

 

[throwing BBZ]

5 minutes ago, ColtsLegacy said:

I was at the game yesterday and I was yelling at Hooker a lot for being out of place or a step slow to his spot. I've been noticing this a lot lately. Teams don't seem to be shying away from him anymore.

 

 Where is his anticipation? Making hard hits to break up passes etc.

[ColtsLegacy]

2 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

The same as week 13?

 

 

I edited it. 26 vs Tampa. 12 run, 13 pass, 1 coverage.

[TimetobringDfence!]

50 minutes ago, dodsworth said:

The D line is priority #1 in the offseason, followed close behind is QB.

 

1. DT

2.QB

3.CB

4.WR

5.FB

6.OL depth

7.Def depth

[Myles]

30 minutes ago, Superman said:

Zone doesn't work when it's not played properly. 

I agree.    I also think the proper usage is not using it 90% of the time.   Gotta at least make the offense figure you out.  The Colts pretty much had a flag stating what coverage they are using.   

[SteelCityColt]

2 minutes ago, Myles said:

I agree.    I also think the proper usage is not using it 90% of the time.   Gotta at least make the offense figure you out.  The Colts pretty much had a flag stating what coverage they are using.   

 

Not just about using zone 90% of the time but at least dissuading coverage shells, sending different blitzers even if you're only rushing 4 etc etc. 

 

As you say, pose questions of the O, don't give them the answers before the test.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

9 minutes ago, TimetobringDfence! said:

1. DT

2.QB

3.CB

4.WR

5.FB

6.OL depth

7.Def depth

He best  thing that could happen is getting a stud DT there then also get the QB they want with that WA pick. But do they take a chance hoping the QB they want us still there. There is a lot of QB needy teams. Not sure we can take a risk waiting if we feel the guy we want is there in the first. A lot though can change If there is a DT in FA we can get. 

[krunk]

34 minutes ago, Superman said:

Zone doesn't work when it's not played properly. It wasn't a lack of pressure, it was blown coverages, over and over again. 

I think we had plenty of pressure.  Problem was indeed as you say blown coverages and J. Winston kept evading a lot of stuff to buy more time.   For that matter no coverage works very well when there's no pressure.  It's not just exclusive to zone coverage.   But again in my opinion I don't think lack of pressure was our problem. 

[throwing BBZ]

Just now, SteelCityColt said:

 

Not just about using zone 90% of the time but at least dissuading coverage shells, sending different blitzers even if you're only rushing 4 etc etc. 

 

As you say, pose questions of the O, don't give them the answers before the test.

 

  We let teams get comfortable on offense, they cab build rhythm, confidence.
  It is time to add a stud inside and one in Sheard's spot. 

[lollygagger8]

It sucks how much Kenny Moore missing impacts this defense. 

 

 

[Superman]

6 minutes ago, SteelCityColt said:

 

One thing I'd say in response to this and the OP is that any scheme or coverage will struggle without pressure. Man might be able to buy you some extra time to get home, but you need good DBs. Not the best example, but we had a half decent D with Davis et al in 2014 because we played some good man coverage. I'm sure we were nearly top 10 in sacks, mostly due to coverage sacks as the rush wasn't brilliant (no Mathis for one).

 

As you correctly say though, if there is a breakdown in communication and receivers aren't handed from zone to zone correctly there will be wide open throws available. The most egregious being CB to S handoffs gone wrong.

 

I'm assuming this was about the dreadful pass defense yesterday. So my comment was specific to what I viewed as the problem with the defense against the Bucs.

 

In general, absolutely, no pressure is a problem when you're playing zone defense. But that's true no matter what coverage you play. 

 

Yesterday, Winston didn't have any more time in the pocket than he usually does (2.81 seconds). He was far less aggressive than he usually is (per NGS aggressiveness stat, which calculates how often a QB throws into a tight window). He had easy throws all day long. His turnovers were bad decisions, not due to a lack of options. 

 

So when a defense has been giving up 245 yards/game and 7.6 Y/A, then suddenly gives up 456 yards, and 10.1 AY/A, I don't think the problem is with the scheme the team plays every week. I think the problem is the execution of the scheme. 

[Coffeedrinker]

26 minutes ago, ColtsLegacy said:

 

I edited it. 26 vs Tampa. 12 run, 13 pass, 1 coverage.

Where do you get your stats from?  I use Football Outsiders but they just break it down by offensive/defensive and special teams.  I like your break down better.

 

 

[Jdubu]

1 hour ago, SteelCityColt said:

 

Yet 100% of NFL teams will use a form of zone defense at some point or another... including probably the last truly dominant D the league has seen. 

 

Please explain why you think "zone" "sucks".

I’m not a fan of zone as the primary defense. I think there are certainly times to go with it and times to be more man. However, both need to be varied during the game and a great DC will be capable of not only calling the right look for the situation but he will also be able to disguise the look more than we have ever attempted. As one poster said, we carry a flag for what we are doing and saying throw it right in here, we’re in zone now.
 

Lastly, a great DC will have there players better prepared to play these positions properly. We seem to lack this part because how many 3rd and long counts do we consistently give up? I’m talking the 3rd and 17 not 3rd and 7. We give up how many uncontested easy wide open long completions or long runs after the catch type plays. That’s on coaching and preparation to play a certain type of defense. To a degree, you have to have players to run  your scheme but when you look around the league and we play teams with last in this category that category and we struggle against that, you can’t tell me all the sudden that team brought their A game or it just suddenly clicked for them today. They have had some mediocre players on that defense too but they seem to beat us on a given day and then go on the following weeks to be bad again. That tells me it’s more about coaching and preparing your guys more so than you have players incapable of running your scheme.  I’d be taking a very very hard look at my defensive coaching staff this offseason and possibly my wr coaches. 

[Jdubu]

12 minutes ago, lollygagger8 said:

It sucks how much Kenny Moore missing impacts this defense. 

 

 

Tampa lost there absolute best WR yesterday. They didn’t miss a beat. This defense is more problematic than missing K. Moore imho. 

[Jdubu]

11 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I'm assuming this was about the dreadful pass defense yesterday. So my comment was specific to what I viewed as the problem with the defense against the Bucs.

 

In general, absolutely, no pressure is a problem when you're playing zone defense. But that's true no matter what coverage you play. 

 

Yesterday, Winston didn't have any more time in the pocket than he usually does (2.81 seconds). He was far less aggressive than he usually is (per NGS aggressiveness stat, which calculates how often a QB throws into a tight window). He had easy throws all day long. His turnovers were bad decisions, not due to a lack of options. 

 

So when a defense has been giving up 245 yards/game and 7.6 Y/A, then suddenly gives up 456 yards, and 10.1 AY/A, I don't think the problem is with the scheme the team plays every week. I think the problem is the execution of the scheme. 

They had so many breakdowns in the scheme yesterday, and other games as well, but this one in particular, how can you not put this type of performance onto a coaching staff not preparing their guys well? It looked like the first time anyone seen the scheme yesterday. Are we practicing well? Enough? Too much? Too light? Need more film room or more field work? Something isn’t done well here. I think a higher view of what these coaching staff is or isn’t doing well needs looked at. Maybe Eberflus just isn’t the guy for this role idk but the more we play, the less impressed I become. 

[SteelCityColt]

17 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I'm assuming this was about the dreadful pass defense yesterday. So my comment was specific to what I viewed as the problem with the defense against the Bucs.

 

In general, absolutely, no pressure is a problem when you're playing zone defense. But that's true no matter what coverage you play. 

 

Yesterday, Winston didn't have any more time in the pocket than he usually does (2.81 seconds). He was far less aggressive than he usually is (per NGS aggressiveness stat, which calculates how often a QB throws into a tight window). He had easy throws all day long. His turnovers were bad decisions, not due to a lack of options. 

 

So when a defense has been giving up 245 yards/game and 7.6 Y/A, then suddenly gives up 456 yards, and 10.1 AY/A, I don't think the problem is with the scheme the team plays every week. I think the problem is the execution of the scheme. 

 

Sorry, it was more a general musing about pressure then specific to your post. I knew I'm more likely to get a sensical response from yourself. 

 

Interesting stats on Winston, it then begs the question as to why the bad day at the office for the D. Just one of those things? 

[Coffeedrinker]

2 minutes ago, SteelCityColt said:

 

Sorry, it was more a general musing about pressure then specific to your post. I knew I'm more likely to get a sensical response from yourself. 

 

Interesting stats on Winston, it then begs the question as to why the bad day at the office for the D. Just one of those things? 

Some times it happens, teams get on a roll and just cannot be stopped.  For example, SF has one of the best defenses in the NFL this year and they allowed 40+ yesterday.  Against a great offensive team but still.

[coltsva]

52 minutes ago, ColtsLegacy said:

I was at the game yesterday and I was yelling at Hooker a lot for being out of place or a step slow to his spot. I've been noticing this a lot lately. Teams don't seem to be shying away from him anymore.

I was there too, and it was mind boggling how he was never even nearby a receiver, and only closed down the space well after the reception. It was like we were playing with 10 on defense. And then Hooker and Willis looking at each other with their arms out on the blown coverage on the TD, like they had no clue who was supposed to be covering Watson(?). Very frustrating.

[jameszeigler834]

1 hour ago, SteelCityColt said:

 

1) This isn't an answer to the question, this is a "whataboutism".

2) "Zone" isn't a defense in itself. You're referring, most likely, to the days of Tampa 2. Which has also been used very successfully elsewhere, including by Dungy. Personnel>>>Scheme. 

 

So again, please explain why "zone" sucks, and if so why does every NFL team probably use it for at least one snap every game. 

Except that two deep crap is always a given that you will give the opposing QB all day to throw and make him look like Montana in his prime.

[SteelCityColt]

4 minutes ago, jameszeigler834 said:

Except that two deep crap is always a given that you will give the opposing QB all day to throw and make him look like Montana in his prime.

 

So would that be Cover 2 or Cover 4 you have an issue with? 

Coverage doesn't mean the QB has all day to throw, lack of a pass rush/pressure is going to do that regardless of the coverage behind. 

[Myles]

15 minutes ago, coltsva said:

I was there too, and it was mind boggling how he was never even nearby a receiver, and only closed down the space well after the reception. It was like we were playing with 10 on defense. And then Hooker and Willis looking at each other with their arms out on the blown coverage on the TD, like they had no clue who was supposed to be covering Watson(?). Very frustrating.

It was worse watching from home.    The announcers wouldn't stop talking about how bad the zone defense looked.  They were almost mocking Eberflus.   "Can't they see that it is not working and Tampa is shredding them"?

[WoolMagnet]

Man doesnt work if you are thin at capable CBs.

[WoolMagnet]

23 minutes ago, SteelCityColt said:

 

Sorry, it was more a general musing about pressure then specific to your post. I knew I'm more likely to get a sensical response from yourself. 

 

Interesting stats on Winston, it then begs the question as to why the bad day at the office for the D. Just one of those things? 

No Kenny Moore

[coltsva]

3 minutes ago, Myles said:

It was worse watching from home.    The announcers wouldn't stop talking about how bad the zone defense looked.  They were almost mocking Eberflus.   "Can't they see that it is not working and Tampa is shredding them"?

I bet that mute button came in handy.