Colts contacted Raiders about Cooper

[John Waylon]

2 minutes ago, Mr.Debonair said:

I’m guessing that’s a concussion joke, which he may already be cleared from. Either way, when he is healthy he is one of the better WRs in the league

 

How would that be a concussion joke?

 

Better yer never mind. I’m afraid to see what the explanation there would be after you called him on of the better WR’s in the league. 

 

He’s not close enough to smell 1,000 yards on a season if he was standing downwind from it on a windy day. 

 

If he’s so good, why would the Raiders be so willing to part ways with him? Or why wouldn’t some team have jumped the shark an overpayed for him?

 

The situation don’t lie. He’s a middling at best receiver with questionable at best value. 

[Mr.Debonair]

2 minutes ago, John Waylon said:

 

How would that be a concussion joke?

 

Better yer never mind. I’m afraid to see what the explanation there would be after you called him on of the better WR’s in the league. 

 

He’s not close enough to smell 1,000 yards on a season if he was standing downwind from it on a windy day. 

 

If he’s so good, why would the Raiders be so willing to part ways with him? Or why wouldn’t some team have jumped the shark an overpayed for him?

 

The situation don’t lie. He’s a middling at best receiver with questionable at best value. 

Because they are obviously rebuilding and freeing cap space. Same reason they traded Mack. He’s not a FA so other teams weren’t able to pay him anything. He just been made a available, your making it seem like he’s been out there all summer and to start this season. He had two 1,000 yard seasons before last year and 5 plus TDS each year

[John Waylon]

1 minute ago, Mr.Debonair said:

Because they are obviously rebuilding and freeing cap space. Same reason they traded Mack. He’s not a FA so other teams weren’t able to pay him anything. He just been made a available, your making it seem like he’s been out there all summer and to start this season. He had two 1,000 yard seasons before last year and 5 plus TDS each year

 

Ok. Glad you posted those numbers. 

 

Now go and find all the WRs who posted better ones and you will find precisely why he is in the middle of the pack. 

 

Numbers don’t lie. 

[Trace Pyott]

6 hours ago, Nesjan3 said:

lol don't forget Andre Johnson. I understand your pain but Cooper is a way better wr than any of those guys you mentioned. It makes a lot of sense but i don't see Ballard making a move like that.

Well you would think just because of the law of avg we would eventually hit on one of these free agent wr lol. I think we are due considering how the last decade has went with free agen wr lol. 

[Superman]

6 hours ago, MPStack said:

Yeah, I assumed even if a trade was made, the Colts could not renegotiate any deal until after the 5th year option. I don't think, I'd want the Colts  to give up more than a 3rd being the case.

 

You can extend a player once he has three accrued seasons, which Cooper has. Whatever team he winds up on can sign him to a new deal if they want. 

 

However, the Raiders exercised the 5th year option, so Cooper isn't a free agent until 2020. That option is almost $14m, guaranteed for injury only. 

[IinD]

What's people's thoughts on getting one of the two old guys from Denver (Sanders or Thomas)?

 

Im wondering about what would be compensation. I don't know what their contracts owe them either.

[Superman]

1 hour ago, Mr.Debonair said:

Because they are obviously rebuilding and freeing cap space. Same reason they traded Mack. He’s not a FA so other teams weren’t able to pay him anything. He just been made a available, your making it seem like he’s been out there all summer and to start this season. He had two 1,000 yard seasons before last year and 5 plus TDS each year

 

I think people remember Cooper from a couple years ago, when he looked like he was going to be a top five receiver moving forward. He was pretty bad last year, and hasn't been much better this year so far.  He's always been a good route runner, but his hands have been inconsistent, and he's been plagued by multiple injuries, which is something the Colts should be trying to get away from, not adding more of.

 

Still, I'd be okay with giving up a third, maybe attach a conditional 2020 4th if Cooper makes the 2019 roster. But a) I don't think Ballard would give up a third, and b) I think anyone who thinks Cooper is going to show up and be a big time weapon for us this season is fooling themselves. 

[IinD]

3 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I think people remember Cooper from a couple years ago, when he looked like he was going to be a top five receiver moving forward. He was pretty bad last year, and hasn't been much better this year so far.  He's always been a good route runner, but his hands have been inconsistent, and he's been plagued by multiple injuries, which is something the Colts should be trying to get away from, not adding more of.

 

Still, I'd be okay with giving up a third, maybe attach a conditional 2020 4th if Cooper makes the 2019 roster. But a) I don't think Ballard would give up a third, and b) I think anyone who thinks Cooper is going to show up and be a big time weapon for us this season is fooling themselves. 

Sounds a bit Heyward-Bey'ish' in terms of hands.

 

I also only remember him from a few years back where he looked like he was going to be a top WR.

[Mr.Debonair]

6 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I think people remember Cooper from a couple years ago, when he looked like he was going to be a top five receiver moving forward. He was pretty bad last year, and hasn't been much better this year so far.  He's always been a good route runner, but his hands have been inconsistent, and he's been plagued by multiple injuries, which is something the Colts should be trying to get away from, not adding more of.

 

Still, I'd be okay with giving up a third, maybe attach a conditional 2020 4th if Cooper makes the 2019 roster. But a) I don't think Ballard would give up a third, and b) I think anyone who thinks Cooper is going to show up and be a big time weapon for us this season is fooling themselves. 

I dont think it’s inconceivable but you could be right. He’d be a threat on the outside to go with TY that he hasn’t had since RW

[MikeCurtis]

4 hours ago, Jdubu said:

I would trade them a conditional 4th round (understanding it’s a mid round at best pick right now.

I LIKE this idea......

 

If he is a stud, we give up a 4th

 

If he is a STUB, we give up a 5th (or 6th)

 

And.......  I throw in Fountain as well

[gnet550]

5 hours ago, Defjamz26 said:

We have 2 2nd rounders so I could part with a 3rd or 4th for him. I’d also do Mack and a 4th for Cooper.

Mack? Are you serious? The running game finally was good against a good defense no less...we have to keep Mack

[Superman]

17 minutes ago, IinD said:

What's people's thoughts on getting one of the two old guys from Denver (Sanders or Thomas)?

 

Im wondering about what would be compensation. I don't know what their contracts owe them either.

 

 

 

First, the Broncos signed a veteran QB for $18m/year, so I don't think they're getting ready to move either of their top two receivers (and I could obviously be wrong about that).

 

Second, both of them are on the downside of their careers. Thomas was never a technician, and will be 31 pretty soon. I think he might wind up being done in a couple of years. He's due $14m next year, then will be a free agent.

 

Sanders is always banged up, and is a few months older than Thomas. Sanders is due $10.25m next year, then will be a free agent.

 

The Broncos are probably very interested in getting their WR corps rebuilt pretty quickly here. They spent a 2nd on Sutton and will probably look to him to replace Thomas. 

[IinD]

1 minute ago, Superman said:

 

 

 

First, the Broncos signed a veteran QB for $18m/year, so I don't think they're getting ready to move either of their top two receivers (and I could obviously be wrong about that).

 

Second, both of them are on the downside of their careers. Thomas was never a technician, and will be 31 pretty soon. I think he might wind up being done in a couple of years. He's due $14m next year, then will be a free agent.

 

Sanders is always banged up, and is a few months older than Thomas. Sanders is due $10.25m next year, then will be a free agent.

 

The Broncos are probably very interested in getting their WR corps rebuilt pretty quickly here. They spent a 2nd on Sutton and will probably look to him to replace Thomas. 

Ahh, ok. I just remember reading a couple articles somewhere recently that mentioned Den would listen if anyone inquired on their aging WR's.

 

Figured I wouldn't mind some cheaper insurance until next year. 

[Superman]

17 minutes ago, IinD said:

Sounds a bit Heyward-Bey'ish' in terms of hands.

 

I also only remember him from a few years back where he looked like he was going to be a top WR.

 

He has much better hands than DHB, but he had a bunch of bad drops last year. I don't know if he's dropping passes this year, he has a couple big games, and the rest have been no-shows.

 

12 minutes ago, Mr.Debonair said:

I dont think it’s inconceivable but you could be right. He’d be a threat on the outside to go with TY that he hasn’t had since RW

 

See, we've said that before. The Colts have tried a bunch of ways to add a #2, but no one can get it done. Definitely need another playmaker out there, but with the issues Cooper's already shown, I couldn't proceed with strong confidence that he'd be that guy for us. I'm not against adding him, but I'd be throwing him in the mix with Cain next year, plus a FA add, and probably another draft pick next year. If Reece Fountain shows up in the second half of the season, maybe I'd avoid using anything more than a 5th on a WR next year...

 

[richard pallo]

1 hour ago, John Waylon said:

 

Ok. Glad you posted those numbers. 

 

Now go and find all the WRs who posted better ones and you will find precisely why he is in the middle of the pack. 

 

Numbers don’t lie. 

Except he has a QB who has regressed.  A new offense and new OC.  He would excel with Luck.  Ballard is definitely interested and ready to make a deal.  This one goes down I think.  Just like Ebron.  Ballard knows great value when it's available.  Only 24.  Are we gonna go for it?  Yep. 

[Superman]

5 minutes ago, IinD said:

Ahh, ok. I just remember reading a couple articles somewhere recently that mentioned Den would listen if anyone inquired on their aging WR's.

 

Figured I wouldn't mind some cheaper insurance until next year. 

 

If they're going to give me Thomas for a 6th, I'll take him. We'd only owe him $4.25m for the rest of this season, then we could figure something out for 2019 before paying him $14m. 

 

But that's only if there are no better options available at a reasonable cost, and our receivers are still struggling. With Hilton back, the sense of desperation is gone.

[threeflight]

5 minutes ago, richard pallo said:

Except he has a QB who has regressed.  A new offense and new OC.  He would excel with Luck.  Ballard is definitely interested and ready to make a deal.  This one goes down I think.  Just like Ebron.  Ballard knows great value when it's available.  Only 24.  Are we gonna go for it?  Yep. 

Bingo.  Nailed it.  People just dismissing this guy are blind imo.

[Mr.Debonair]

5 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

He has much better hands than DHB, but he had a bunch of bad drops last year. I don't know if he's dropping passes this year, he has a couple big games, and the rest have been no-shows.

 

 

See, we've said that before. The Colts have tried a bunch of ways to add a #2, but no one can get it done. Definitely need another playmaker out there, but with the issues Cooper's already shown, I couldn't proceed with strong confidence that he'd be that guy for us. I'm not against adding him, but I'd be throwing him in the mix with Cain next year, plus a FA add, and probably another draft pick next year. If Reece Fountain shows up in the second half of the season, maybe I'd avoid using anything more than a 5th on a WR next year...

 

Yeah we def having been looking for that 2nd option for a while. I’m Hestitant on Cain just because the ACL really changes who players are. Fountain I know nothing about since he has yet to be called up. 

[Superman]

4 minutes ago, richard pallo said:

Except he has a QB who has regressed.  A new offense and new OC.  He would excel with Luck.  Ballard is definitely interested and ready to make a deal.  This one goes down I think.  Just like Ebron.  Ballard knows great value when it's available.  Only 24.  Are we gonna go for it?  Yep. 

 

This is the attitude fans have about pretty much every available player all the time. 

 

"Just get him here, he'll be great for us!"

 

There are plenty of examples of good players changing teams and struggling. Acting like it's a sure thing that he'd be good with the Colts is unreasonable.

 

I do agree that he fits Ballard's wanted profile, especially compared with Dez Bryant or Josh Gordon, but I still seriously doubt the Colts trade for him. 

[John Waylon]

11 minutes ago, richard pallo said:

Except he has a QB who has regressed.  A new offense and new OC.  He would excel with Luck.  Ballard is definitely interested and ready to make a deal.  This one goes down I think.  Just like Ebron.  Ballard knows great value when it's available.  Only 24.  Are we gonna go for it?  Yep. 

 

Thats pretty much word for word what was said when we signed Hakeem Nicks, Darius Heyward-Bey, Andre Johnson, and now Ryan Grant. 

 

It’s also the same generic argument that will be made for signing every other WR in the universe until Luck calls it quits. 

 

Despite the fact that it isn’t actually that simple. 

[threeflight]

2 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

If they're going to give me Thomas for a 6th, I'll take him. We'd only owe him $4.25m for the rest of this season, then we could figure something out for 2019 before paying him $14m. 

 

But that's only if there are no better options available at a reasonable cost, and our receivers are still struggling. With Hilton back, the sense of desperation is gone.

Both Thomas and Sanders are still really good.  I would have no issues trading for each.

 

Look who has been throwing to them the past few years.

[threeflight]

14 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

This is the attitude fans have about pretty much every available player all the time. 

 

"Just get him here, he'll be great for us!"

 

There are plenty of examples of good players changing teams and struggling. Acting like it's a sure thing that he'd be good with the Colts is unreasonable.

 

I do agree that he fits Ballard's wanted profile, especially compared with Dez Bryant or Josh Gordon, but I still seriously doubt the Colts trade for him. 

I urged the fan base to get behind the trading for Gordon last month.

 

He will be a beast for NE in the playoffs.  Really starting to come on.

[Superman]

Just now, threeflight said:

I urged the fan base to get behind the trading for Gordon last month.

 

Along with another 15-20 guys...

 

You have a "plug and play" mentality to player acquisition. I don't.

[richard pallo]

3 minutes ago, John Waylon said:

 

Thats pretty much word for word what was said when we signed Hakeem Nicks, Darius Heyward-Bey, Andre Johnson, and now Ryan Grant. 

 

It’s also the same generic argument that will be made for signing every other WR in the universe until Luck calls it quits. 

 

Despite the fact that it isn’t actually that simple. 

Those were old players no where near the level of player Cooper is.  Cooper is 24.  Big difference. 

[threeflight]

2 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Along with another 15-20 guys...

 

You have a "plug and play" mentality to player acquisition. I don't.

No.  I just recognize elite talent when I see it.

 

I would rather go after 5 Josh Gordons, hoping to hit that home run, rather than 1 Ryan Grant to get a single.

[threeflight]

2 minutes ago, richard pallo said:

Those were old players no where near the level of player Cooper is.  Cooper is 24.  Big difference. 

Yup.  Still have a hard time understanding how people are equating Cooper, who is 24, to guys that were in the league for 12 years.

 

Not to mention the Oakland offense has been a trainwreck the past 2 years.

[Superman]

2 minutes ago, threeflight said:

No.  I just recognize elite talent when I see it.

 

I would rather go after 5 Josh Gordons, hoping to hit that home run, rather than 1 Ryan Grant to get a single.

 

And you alone, right?

 

Come on. Everyone knows how good Josh Gordon is, you aren't telling anyone anything they don't already know. The reasons people didn't want him had nothing to do with his talent. 

 

And swinging for the fences over and over is fun to talk about, but building and sustaining a quality roster is about more than just adding talented players at flashy positions. 

[threeflight]

Just now, Superman said:

 

And you alone, right?

 

Come on. Everyone knows how good Josh Gordon is, you aren't telling anyone anything they don't already know. The reasons people didn't want him had nothing to do with his talent. 

 

And swinging for the fences over and over is fun to talk about, but building and sustaining a quality roster is about more than just adding talented players at flashy positions. 

It is possible to do both, especially when you swing for the fences with guys who have elite physical talent.

 

Going after Gordon was a no brainer imo.

 

Or is BB an * for doing so???

 

Because I have seen every NE game since he was acquired, and he appears to be the consummate teammate.  Not saying he is a choir boy, but he certainly does not appear to be any sort of distraction as so many here would have had you believe.

[John Waylon]

9 minutes ago, richard pallo said:

Those were old players no where near the level of player Cooper is.  Cooper is 24.  Big difference. 

 

Rubbish.

 

All of them were 27 and under when they came here except Johnson. 

 

And Johnson was still coming off a season where despite the fact that he caught less than 5 TDs he still caught 85 passes for over 900 yards in 15 games. 

 

Nicks, who is just now 30 years old, had seasons with the Giants all EXTREMELY comparable to Cooper’s worst AND best. 

 

Furthermore Hayward-Bey’s last two seasons in Oakland were very comparable to Cooper’s last two there as well. 

 

Hell, even Grant’s stats weren’t egregiously below Cooper’s of the last two years before coming here. 

 

And yet none of them were turned into somethings they aren’t by Luck. 

[Superman]

5 minutes ago, threeflight said:

It is possible to do both, especially when you swing for the fences with guys who have elite physical talent.

 

Going after Gordon was a no brainer imo.

 

Or is BB an * for doing so???

 

Because I have seen every NE game since he was acquired, and he appears to be the consummate teammate.  Not saying he is a choir boy, but he certainly does not appear to be any sort of distraction as so many here would have had you believe.

 

I love the "black or white" fallacy.

 

First, it's not possible to do both if you swing on every high profile player the way you want to. 

 

Second, to me, the primary concern with Josh Gordon isn't about the locker room or what kind of teammate he is. Those are concerns, but secondary. The primary concern is that he continually fails NFL drug tests. It's a simple equation: no matter how good a player is, he can't help the team if he's suspended. (I also expected him to be suspended over whatever happened in Cleveland; I thought he showed up high, but apparently something else happened.)

 

Third, value is subjective, and changes from team to team. Same with risk management. The Patriots are in a very different place as a franchise and coaching staff. Incorporating a high risk / high reward player like Gordon is a different consideration for the Patriots than it is for the Colts.

 

Last on Gordon, I'd have traded for him for a fifth rounder. I find the cost acceptable, as it's low enough that if things don't go well with Gordon I'm okay having wasted that pick on him. But his talent and ability are obvious, so if it did work out, it would be a huge bonus. I'm still not heartbroken that we didn't trade for him. 

 

As for Cooper, he's not on Gordon's level, talent-wise, and the cost to acquire him will probably be more than it cost the Pats to get Gordon. 

 

My problems with conversations like these: a) they always seem to ignore the cost of the acquisition, and b) it seems like the reason no one cares about giving up resources to acquire players they like is because they assume that said player is automatically going to be good once he shows up. More often than not, trading for a player who isn't playing well doesn't translate to better play. The player usually continues to struggle. 

[bluebombers87]

21 minutes ago, threeflight said:

It is possible to do both, especially when you swing for the fences with guys who have elite physical talent.

 

Going after Gordon was a no brainer imo.

 

Or is BB an * for doing so???

 

Because I have seen every NE game since he was acquired, and he appears to be the consummate teammate.  Not saying he is a choir boy, but he certainly does not appear to be any sort of distraction as so many here would have had you believe.

Great so he wasn’t chugging beer or smoking out on the sidelines during games.

[jvan1973]

36 minutes ago, threeflight said:

Yup.  Still have a hard time understanding how people are equating Cooper, who is 24, to guys that were in the league for 12 years.

 

Not to mention the Oakland offense has been a trainwreck the past 2 years.

Other than Johnson,   what wr has been brought in with even 10 years???

[2006Coltsbestever]

45 minutes ago, threeflight said:

Yup.  Still have a hard time understanding how people are equating Cooper, who is 24, to guys that were in the league for 12 years.

 

Not to mention the Oakland offense has been a trainwreck the past 2 years.

I will give you this, I would love to add Coop. He is young as well. At what cost I am not sure though to get him?

[BOTT]

7 hours ago, Defjamz26 said:

We have 2 2nd rounders so I could part with a 3rd or 4th for him. I’d also do Mack and a 4th for Cooper.

Trading Mack would create another, and bigger, problem.

7 hours ago, Defjamz26 said:

 

[LJpalmbeacher2]

1 hour ago, John Waylon said:

 

Thats pretty much word for word what was said when we signed Hakeem Nicks, Darius Heyward-Bey, Andre Johnson, and now Ryan Grant. 

 

It’s also the same generic argument that will be made for signing every other WR in the universe until Luck calls it quits. 

 

Despite the fact that it isn’t actually that simple. 

 

So we shouldn't never ever sign a wr?? 

Regardless how much we need one or two ??

[Mr.NotSoCreative]

52 minutes ago, threeflight said:

It is possible to do both, especially when you swing for the fences with guys who have elite physical talent.

 

Going after Gordon was a no brainer imo.

 

Or is BB an * for doing so???

 

Because I have seen every NE game since he was acquired, and he appears to be the consummate teammate.  Not saying he is a choir boy, but he certainly does not appear to be any sort of distraction as so many here would have had you believe.

A lot is probably due to BBs approach to his team. Maybe only place he could go and get things worked out as far as dicipline. Hindsight we missed out, but doenst mean we need to try and make up for it possibly stretching on someone else. CBall has had a bargain bin mentality to FA, why change now on Cooper? If we are thinking deep run in playoffs, and he can play for us after this season, sure. If not, hold pat. I see him searching practice squad guys first.

[Defjamz26]

21 minutes ago, BOTT said:

Trading Mack would create another, and bigger, problem.

After today’s game yes. It might be better to keep him and find a good back to pair him with.

[richard pallo]

If we trade for Cooper and with the expected return of Cain, Fountain and Ishmael the need of using a high pick at WR drops significantly. 

[John Waylon]

8 minutes ago, LJpalmbeacher2 said:

 

So we shouldn't never ever sign a wr?? 

Regardless how much we need one or two ??

 

 

You really should keep up with the discussion. 

[John Waylon]

11 minutes ago, LJpalmbeacher2 said:

 

So we shouldn't never ever sign a wr?? 

Regardless how much we need one or two ??

 

But to answer your question and furthermore keep up with ridiculous posts no we should never sign another WR. We should come out as the first NFL team to not utilize the position and just run singleback sets with 4 TE’s. 

 

You have any other incomplete thoughts rolling around up there waiting to fall out? I’m feeling cheeky.