Spending a top-20 pick on a RB is one of the worst decisions a team can make

[2006Coltsbestever]

7 minutes ago, Colts_Fan12 said:

You do know Trent was a "can't miss prospect"

I don't remember people talking about him the way they do Barkley. I may be wrong. If you look at game film on both, you can clearly see Barkley's vision is much better and he's faster.

[PrincetonTiger]

1 minute ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I don't remember people talking about him the way they do Barkley. I may be wrong. If you look at game film on both, you can clearly see Barkley's vision is much better and he's faster.

They did 

 

 

   Barkley’s time at PSU proves my point

    Great Player does not prove Team Success 

[LJpalmbeacher2]

51 minutes ago, PrincetonTiger said:

Picking a shiny toy is not the answer especially if the other problems are not fixed

 

Are all our problems reliant on pick #3 ???

$80 million to spend in FA........picking 3rd in rounds 2-7

 

Can't Ballard fix some things with all our resources???   Lol

[NFLfan]

15 minutes ago, PrincetonTiger said:

Barkley’s time at PSU proves my point

    Great Player does not prove Team Success 

 

What do you mean? Penn State was successful with Barkley. They did not win a championship but Barkley is not the reason for that.

 

Would you not have drafted Luck because Stanford (my team) was not "successful"? (I am assuming that "successful" for you means "winning a championship".)

[PrincetonTiger]

12 minutes ago, LJpalmbeacher2 said:

 

Are all our problems reliant on pick #3 ???

$80 million to spend in FA........picking 3rd in rounds 2-7

 

Can't Ballard fix some things with all our resources???   Lol

There are too many holes for the Colts to fill in FA

 

   

[LJpalmbeacher2]

3 minutes ago, PrincetonTiger said:

There are too many holes the Colts to fill in FA

 

   

 

Lol

[PrincetonTiger]

Just now, NFLfan said:

 

What do you mean? Penn State was successful with Barkley. They did not win a championship but Barkley is not the reason for that.

 

Would you not have drafted Luck because Stanford (my team) was not "successful"?

That has been my whole point 

   the Colts have too many holes for a Barkley to make sense unless they have a perfect FA period.

[PrincetonTiger]

Friendly Reminder from TigerTown  

 Picking SB will not make us a Super Bowl Contender

[PrincetonTiger]

Friendly Reminder from TigerTown   

  PT only has the privilege to use pronouns like Us and We when talking about 1 program but that is how things work in TigerTown 

[2006Coltsbestever]

5 minutes ago, PrincetonTiger said:

Friendly Reminder from TigerTown  

 Picking SB will not make us a Super Bowl Contender

and picking Chubb does? Some peoples logic in here is so flawed. If we take Barkley at #3 and people are unhappy than that is their problem. If we take Chubb I will be happy so I actually have 0 problems with who we pick. I think people in here are going out of their way to try to convince themselves that Barkley will be a bust or wont live up to his hype so they can justify their reasoning to not wanting to pick him. I presented a question to a Poster in here a few weeks ago that if he had a chance to take Barry Sanders at #3 like the Lions did would he do it. He answered NO.  That is even after the career he had. Some people are just so against taking a RB in the 1st Round nothing will change their mind. 

[Aaron86]

12 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

and picking Chubb does? Some peoples logic in here is so flawed. If we take Barkley at #3 and people are unhappy than that is their problem. If we take Chubb I will be happy so I actually have 0 problems with who we pick. I think people in here are going out of their way to try to convince themselves that Barkley will be a bust or wont live up to his hype so they can justify their reasoning to not wanting to pick him. I presented a question to a Poster in here a few weeks ago that if he had a chance to take Barry Sanders at #3 like the Lions did would he do it. He answered NO.  That is even after the career he had. Some people are just so against taking a RB in the 1st Round nothing will change their mind. 

This a 1000 times!!!!!

[Indy Fan]

28 minutes ago, PrincetonTiger said:

Friendly Reminder from TigerTown  

 Picking SB will not make us a Super Bowl Contender

There isn't one player in this draft that is going to make us a Super Bowl contender. What's your point?

[PrincetonTiger]

8 minutes ago, Indy Fan said:

There isn't one player in this draft that is going to make us a Super Bowl contender. What's your point?

That is one line of thinking

[PrincetonTiger]

28 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

and picking Chubb does? Some peoples logic in here is so flawed. If we take Barkley at #3 and people are unhappy than that is their problem. If we take Chubb I will be happy so I actually have 0 problems with who we pick. I think people in here are going out of their way to try to convince themselves that Barkley will be a bust or wont live up to his hype so they can justify their reasoning to not wanting to pick him. I presented a question to a Poster in here a few weeks ago that if he had a chance to take Barry Sanders at #3 like the Lions did would he do it. He answered NO.  That is even after the career he had. Some people are just so against taking a RB in the 1st Round nothing will change their mind. 

Never said anything remotely close to that my whole point is to wait and see and trade back if necessary 

 

 

  Draft or Trade for Need not the next big thing

 

   My whole view is based on my life in Locker Rooms, Press Box and on the sideline

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 minute ago, PrincetonTiger said:

Never said anything remotely close to that my whole point is to wait and see and trade back if necessary 

Never said you did and I never said picking Barkley would make us a SB contender either. I was just responding to your Post being the great natured guy I am

[PrincetonTiger]

Just now, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Never said you did and I never said picking Barkley would make us a SB contender either. I was just responding to your Post being the great natured guy I am

Others have implied that or that how it appears in TigerTown 

 

         Being a disciple of a Run Based O, one might I would be on the SB train but my experience as a player and coach pushes me off Since know how important all 22 positions are

[2006Coltsbestever]

4 minutes ago, PrincetonTiger said:

Others have implied that or that how it appears in TigerTown 

 

         Being a disciple of a Run Based O, one might I would be on the SB train but my experience as a player and coach pushes me off Since know how important all 22 positions are

Yeah when I posted Chubb does? It was a question so I wasn't implying you thought Chubb would put us in the SB. I was just responding to your Barkley comment. No bigge. I think we are 2 or 3 years away before we can think about SB contention. The Division is winnable though if we nail Free Agency and the Draft. Luck needs to get healthy too.

[Lucky Colts Fan]

We saw the difference in Denver when Von Miller wasn't in the lineup.  He is a game-changer worthy of a top-5 pick.

 

We also saw the difference in Dallas when Ezekiel Elliot wasn't in the lineup.  He is also a game-changer worthy of a top-5 pick.

 

We can go back-and-forth all day about Barkley vs Chubb (vs Nelson).  Any of the three are a game-changer worthy of a top-5 pick.

 

[Colts_Fan12]

The odds of finding an elite RB later are better then finding an elite pass rusher later end of story 

[IndyScribe]

22 minutes ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

We saw the difference in Denver when Von Miller wasn't in the lineup.  He is a game-changer worthy of a top-5 pick.

 

We also saw the difference in Dallas when Ezekiel Elliot wasn't in the lineup.  He is also a game-changer worthy of a top-5 pick.

 

We can go back-and-forth all day about Barkley vs Chubb (vs Nelson).  Any of the three are a game-changer worthy of a top-5 pick.

 

To be fair, each team has a different situation. Cowboys have a good O-Line and their QB is Dak, who isn't as good as luck. If Luck were not to have Barkley, I'd assume he'd play better than Dak. 

[IndyScribe]

1 hour ago, PrincetonTiger said:

Friendly Reminder from TigerTown  

 Picking SB will not make us a Super Bowl Contender

Neither will picking Chubb. This team has holes everywhere. And honestly, who knows if Chubb is worth the third pick? I don't want to draft Barkley with #3, and I definitely wouldn't call Chubb a surefire thing either. like Garrett or Bosa.

[PrincetonTiger]

1 minute ago, IndyScribe said:

Neither will picking Chubb. This team has holes everywhere. And honestly, who knows if Chubb is worth the third pick? I don't want to draft Barkley with #3, and I definitely wouldn't call Chubb a surefire thing either. like Garrett or Bosa.

Have you read my other responses because I am not advocating for anyone 

[Lucky Colts Fan]

3 minutes ago, IndyScribe said:

Cowboys have a good O-Line and their QB is Dak

 

That OLine didn't look very good when Zeke wasn't running behind them this past year.  Elliott makes that offense great.

 

Just like the Denver D weren't world-beaters when Von was injured.  Miller makes that defense great.

 

I'm not saying that either the Colts offense or defense is going to become great with one player, but Barkley, Chubb, and Nelson are players that can make an offense or defense great if surrounded by good teammates.

[PrincetonTiger]

1 minute ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

 

That OLine didn't look very good when Zeke wasn't running behind them this past year.  Elliott makes that offense great.

 

Just like the Denver D weren't world-beaters when Von was injured.  Miller makes that defense great.

 

I'm not saying that either the Colts offense or defense is going to become great with one player, but Barkley, Chubb, and Nelson are players that can make an offense or defense great if surrounded by good teammates.

Before FA based on team needs here is my list

   Chubb or Nelson then Barkley

[Lucky Colts Fan]

1 minute ago, PrincetonTiger said:

Before FA based on team needs here is my list

   Chubb or Nelson then Barkley

 

I like that.  I'm not gonna argue against anyones' ranking of the three, but I think your ranking probably falls in-line with Ballards'.

 

Chris says you have to build the trenches first, we'll see if he sticks to that and takes Chubb.

 

Of course, Ballard could solidify both lines in FA and draft Barkley as a Bonus.  I think we'd all be happy with that. 

[PrincetonTiger]

1 minute ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

 

I like that.  I'm not gonna argue against anyones' ranking of the three, but I think your ranking probably falls in-line with Ballards'.

 

Chris says you have to build the trenches first, we'll see if he sticks to that and takes Chubb.

 

Of course, Ballard could solidify both lines in FA and draft Barkley as a Bonus.  I think we'd all be happy with that. 

[Finball]

1 hour ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

We saw the difference in Denver when Von Miller wasn't in the lineup.  He is a game-changer worthy of a top-5 pick.

 

We also saw the difference in Dallas when Ezekiel Elliot wasn't in the lineup.  He is also a game-changer worthy of a top-5 pick.

 

We can go back-and-forth all day about Barkley vs Chubb (vs Nelson).  Any of the three are a game-changer worthy of a top-5 pick.

 

 

Cowboys went 3-3 without Zeke. Alfred Morris had better YPC than Zeke this past season. In those 3 losses, Cowboys were also missing Tyron Smith and/or Sean Lee. When they got the back, they started winning, even without Zeke.

 

Zeke is very good back but last season he wasn't a game changer for the Cowboys.

[BOTT]

18 minutes ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

 

That OLine didn't look very good when Zeke wasn't running behind them this past year.  Elliott makes that offense great.

 

Just like the Denver D weren't world-beaters when Von was injured.  Miller makes that defense great.

 

I'm not saying that either the Colts offense or defense is going to become great with one player, but Barkley, Chubb, and Nelson are players that can make an offense or defense great if surrounded by good teammates.

The Cowboys offensive didn't play up to their potential (injuries) and not coincidentally, neither did Elliot.  He went from 5.1 ypc to 4.1. Smaller sample size, but Alfred Morris was 4.8 ypc.

[IndyScribe]

32 minutes ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

 

That OLine didn't look very good when Zeke wasn't running behind them this past year.  Elliott makes that offense great.

 

Just like the Denver D weren't world-beaters when Von was injured.  Miller makes that defense great.

 

I'm not saying that either the Colts offense or defense is going to become great with one player, but Barkley, Chubb, and Nelson are players that can make an offense or defense great if surrounded by good teammates.

For sure, I agree with that. It's just that each team is different, and drafting Barkley or Chubb would help immensely.

[Lucky Colts Fan]

1 minute ago, Finball said:

Cowboys went 3-3 without Zeke. Alfred Morris had better YPC than Zeke this past season. In those 3 losses, Cowboys were also missing Tyron Smith and/or Sean Lee. When they got the back, they started winning, even without Zeke.

 

Zeke is very good back but last season he wasn't a game changer for the Cowboys.

 

1 minute ago, BOTT said:

The Cowboys offensive didn't play up to their potential (injuries) and not coincidentally, neither did Elliot.  He went from 5.1 ypc to 4.1. Smaller sample size, but Alfred Morris was 4.8 ypc.

 

This time last year we were all calling the Cowboys OLine the greatest OLine in football.

 

2016 w/ Zeke vs 2017 w/o Zeke is a world of difference.

 

Given, injuries and the volatility of Zekes' season (is he suspended? is he not suspended?) played a part in the decline, but I believe a healthy, question-mark-free Elliott gets the Cowboys into the playoffs, maybe deep, in 2017.  You could tell that Jurray took it personal when Zeke got suspended, and it felt like that bad juju matriculated down through the whole organization.

 

[LockeDown]

I don’t like terms like “ this is a passing league” .  Do you think Belichick knows that?  He uses every resource that is a mismatch. That’s what we should do toi

[Superman]

7 hours ago, NFLfan said:

 

Okay. Your opinion was more nuanced than what I remembered. I get it. Thanks.

 

How do you assess value? Do you think drafting WR early is good value? I see WRs the way you see RBs. I think you can find great WRs in lower rounds. I think OL may have the most value, as the play of the OL impacts the passing game and the running game. A strong OL makes a mediocre QB look like a great player. It protects your QB (the position considered the most "valuable"). A good OL also improves time of possession and gives the offense more options. Yet, most people do not put as much value on OL as they do skill players and pass rushers. Why aren't offensive linemen being selected earlier? 

 

Those who like Barkley see a special player who would force opposing defenses to pay attention to him and put less pressure on Luck. They see value in that. So, just as you understood the Dorsett pick, I understand why Colts fans would want Barkley... Nelson would be my pick. It is about time the Colts start to protect their QBs.

 

I get the argument about receivers, and I don't necessarily disagree. I have receivers behind a lot of other positions in terms of value. But a) receivers make big plays, averaging a lot more yards per touch and points per touch than RBs; and b) receivers are more likely to play at a high level for 8+ years than RBs. So I definitely have receivers ahead of RBs, mostly due to longevity.

 

As for OL, I think LT is third on the value list, behind QBs and pass rushers. Players projected to be lockdown LTs get drafted at the top of the first round every year. Interior linemen have less value, which is the problem with Nelson. But I would rather have Nelson at #3 than Barkley, again due to longevity. Guards can continue to play at a high level even as they get older.

 

I understand seeing Barkley as a special player. I don't think he's as special as the hype says. But end of the day, there's still a low probability that he winds up being a high level contributor beyond his rookie contract. Meanwhile, after four years, if Chubb or Nelson are as good as projected, they'll be commanding big contracts and just getting into the prime of their careers.

 

As for protecting the QB, I think we need three new starters next season. I'd love to get those guys in free agency, if possible, especially since it's more common for good OL to be available in free agency than good pass rushers. We could break the bank for Norwell, an All Pro, and he'd still be $3m/year less than Olivier Vernon, a slightly above average pass rusher. And that's the other part of the "value" conversation: good interior linemen hit free agency every year. If you want a good pass rusher, you have to draft him.

[Finball]

48 minutes ago, LockeDown said:

I don’t like terms like “ this is a passing league” .  Do you think Belichick knows that?  He uses every resource that is a mismatch. That’s what we should do toi

 

Yes and those weapons are usually used in the passing game. Pats haven't used 1st round pick on RB for over a decade. Since then (2006), they've used only two day two picks on RBs, both in 2011. They've invested more heavily on QBs, even though they have Tom Brady.

 

They've acquired their RBs via trade (Blount), FA pickups on players who were cut (Blount again, Dion Lewis, Danny Woodhead), day 3 pick at the draft (James White) or regular FA (Gillislee and Burkhead). None of those players were picked in the first two days at the draft. 2 were UDFAs.

 

They haven't had the chance to pick up talent like Barkley, but based on their history with roster construction/position values, they certainly wouldn't use #3 pick on Barkley. Emphasis for them has been on versatile weapons at RB, who each have different strenghts. This applies to the Eagles as well under Howie Roseman.

[LockeDown]

31 minutes ago, Finball said:

 

Yes and those weapons are usually used in the passing game. Pats haven't used 1st round pick on RB for over a decade. Since then (2006), they've used only two day two picks on RBs, both in 2011. They've invested more heavily on QBs, even though they have Tom Brady.

 

They've acquired their RBs via trade (Blount), FA pickups on players who were cut (Blount again, Dion Lewis, Danny Woodhead), day 3 pick at the draft (James White) or regular FA (Gillislee and Burkhead). None of those players were picked in the first two days at the draft. 2 were UDFAs.

 

They haven't had the chance to pick up talent like Barkley, but based on their history with roster construction/position values, they certainly wouldn't use #3 pick on Barkley. Emphasis for them has been on versatile weapons at RB, who each have different strenghts. This applies to the Eagles as well under Howie Roseman.

 

31 minutes ago, Finball said:

 

Yes and those weapons are usually used in the passing game. Pats haven't used 1st round pick on RB for over a decade. Since then (2006), they've used only two day two picks on RBs, both in 2011. They've invested more heavily on QBs, even though they have Tom Brady.

 

They've acquired their RBs via trade (Blount), FA pickups on players who were cut (Blount again, Dion Lewis, Danny Woodhead), day 3 pick at the draft (James White) or regular FA (Gillislee and Burkhead). None of those players were picked in the first two days at the draft. 2 were UDFAs.

 

They haven't had the chance to pick up talent like Barkley, but based on their history with roster construction/position values, they certainly wouldn't use #3 pick on Barkley. Emphasis for them has been on versatile weapons at RB, who each have different strenghts. This applies to the Eagles as well under Howie Roseman.

 Not what I was talking about but i'll bite.  He never gets a chance to get those guys, but  If he were picking 3rd, he would definitely consider Barkley and he would use him to his full advantage.  He also never drafts 1st round receivers which  destroys your argument.  He found a mismatch with the TE position as his main weapon...who else does that?  Nobody sans Carolina.  My point is that when someone says the league does something we all should do it, but BB defies that and does his own thing...which happens to work better than the league.  It's a mismatch league, but nobody seems to know it but him. 

 

 

 

[Finball]

27 minutes ago, LockeDown said:

 

 Not what I was talking about but i'll bite.  He never gets a chance to get those guys, but  If he were picking 3rd, he would definitely consider Barkley and he would use him to his full advantage.  He also never drafts 1st round receivers which  destroys your argument.  He found a mismatch with the TE position as his main weapon...who else does that?  Nobody sans Carolina.  My point is that when someone says the league does something we all should do it, but BB defies that and does his own thing...which happens to work better than the league.  It's a mismatch league, but nobody seems to know it but him. 

 

 

 

 

BB not drafting 1st round receivers doesn't really destroy my argument. I'm actually not the biggest fan of drafting receivers high, in most cases. It usually takes them a while to learn NFL offense and FA receivers have very high success rate compared to other positions.

 

I'd assume that's at least part of the reason BB doesn't draft receivers high but also because they haven't been good at scouting receivers. One high pick on receivers this decade and he was a bust (Aaron Dobson). He also advised his friend and Falcons GM, Dimitrioff, to not trade up for Julio because you could find similar level of player in Jonanthan Baldwin later in the draft.

 

Chiefs also use TE as a main weapon. Their offense runs through Kelce. He wen't down against Tennessee in the playoffs and they couldn't get anything done. Saints did it too with Jimmy Graham when he was still a beast.

[Rackeen305]

On 2/23/2018 at 2:31 PM, NextGenerationLuck said:

Take Chubb or Nelson in the first (if we trade back, definitely no to taking Nelson 3rd overall) then draft Sony in the 3rd round 

Where is Sony ranked in the RB class.?

[krunk]

Its amazing to me how Mcaffrey was not getting this kind of cult like love from people on this forum last year and he had better numbers than Barkley. No one agreed with Mcaffrey being deserving of a top 3 pick. I like Barkley but how can everyone be so sure he's any more special than Mcaffrey. The numbers dont bear it out.

[BOTT]

25 minutes ago, krunk said:

Its amazing to me how Mcaffrey was not getting this kind of cult like love from people on this forum last year and he had better numbers than Barkley. No one agreed with Mcaffrey being deserving of a top 3 pick. I like Barkley but how can everyone be so sure he's any more special than Mcaffrey. The numbers dont bear it out.

He appears to be a totally different animal than McCaffery.

[jshipp23]

1 hour ago, krunk said:

Its amazing to me how Mcaffrey was not getting this kind of cult like love from people on this forum last year and he had better numbers than Barkley. No one agreed with Mcaffrey being deserving of a top 3 pick. I like Barkley but how can everyone be so sure he's any more special than Mcaffrey. The numbers dont bear it out.

Barkley is 30 lbs heavier than McCaffrey and much faster, almost 2 tenths faster in the 40...To go along with a 4.33 40 time, he is freakishly strong.. He is a RB, but holds Penn States all- time record in the power clean at 405 lbs, he squats 525 lbs 5 times, and he did 30 reps at 225 lbs in the bench press...So he is basically as big as a linebacker, will be the fastest running back in the NFL , and he is stronger than most NFL defensive and offensive linemen...That is why he gets all the hype...Guys like this very rarely come around, he is a true freak of nature and has a great character and work ethic to go along with it..

[LJpalmbeacher2]

44 minutes ago, jshipp23 said:

Barkley is 30 lbs heavier than McCaffrey and much faster, almost 2 tenths faster in the 40...To go along with a 4.33 40 time, he is freakishly strong.. He is a RB, but holds Penn States all- time record in the power clean at 405 lbs, he squats 525 lbs 5 times, and he did 30 reps at 225 lbs in the bench press...So he is basically as big as a linebacker, will be the fastest running back in the NFL , and he is stronger than most NFL defensive and offensive linemen...That is why he gets all the hype...Guys like this very rarely come around, he is a true freak of nature and has a great character and work ethic to go along with it..

Wow!

Looks like he should have been named Clark Kent.

 

Ballard should trade up to make sure we get him. I'm sure this forum wouldn't mind that.