Jacoby Brissett Must Start in Week 2

[BlueShoe]

15 minutes ago, J@son said:

 

No, chuck assigns values to specific player attributes. To tell the GM what skill sets, what attributes he needs from each position. The GM gets the best players he can who possess those traits. And since the GM knows those traits, he'll then always be on the look out for better players than what he has, that also possess those traits. 

 

But I think I finally understand how you're seeing it. You think pagano says something like, hey tolzien is a 4. If someone better than a 4 comes along get him. 

 

That would kind of make sense but I just don't think that's how it works. That would mean Ballard puts complete trust in Pagano's grades without doing an evaluation of his own, and I don't think that's true. I think they evaluate the value/grade of each player individually and then compare notes. But, the GM is usually going to win when push comes to shove when it comes to final say on roster decisions. 

 

So I think we are close to landing this plane - I hope.

 

I think what you're failing to understand is, if Pagano leads Ballard in the wrong direction, then Ballard can fire Pagano.

 

Pagano should have told Ballard that we need to find someone to replace Tolzien. It should have been Paganos's top request. 

[Colten18]

Just now, PrincetonTiger said:

Feeel exactly the same but with our current situation ST needs to stay on the roster until AL comes back

Agreed. Don't want to cut him. Just want to see if Brisett gives us a better chance of winning until Lucks back

[krunk]

1 minute ago, J@son said:

 

Blue shoe has been saying that keeping tolzien falls 100% on chuck. I think NDColt took it too far the other direction saying its only Ballard. 

 

I'm with you, its a combined effort so its on both. But, when therr are disagreements and a final decision has to be made, usually the GM has final say. In the rarer situations when the coach is given final say, its usually widely discussed in the media.  

Ballard spoke on what the process is if they have disagreements. I forgot the meat of what he said though.

[PrincetonTiger]

4 minutes ago, J@son said:

 

Blue shoe has been saying that keeping tolzien falls 100% on chuck. I think NDColt took it too far the other direction saying its only Ballard. 

 

I'm with you, its a combined effort so its on both. But, when therr are disagreements and a final decision has to be made, usually the GM has final say. In the rarer situations when the coach is given final say, its usually widely discussed in the media.  

I am think I can adress this in a smaller matter(High School) the position/JV coaches can recommend players or plays but it is the HC decision

[jcwcoltsfan]

How can you guys say that Brissett is better than Tolzien? Brissett only threw for one TD and Tolzien threw for two.

[BlueShoe]

One thing is for sure, and we might all agree with this.

 

Our local media is reading this forum, and we just gave them the next big question to ask Ballard and Pagano. They're going to ask whose decision it was to stick with Tolzien, and not address the quarterback position sooner. They will ask about the inner workings of the organization. 

 

I am not sure if you have noticed, but a lot of their questions are stolen from the conversations we have on this board. We have been doing most of the Colts media work for years. 

[Jackie Daytona]

Just now, jcwcoltsfan said:

How can you guys say that Brissett is better than Tolzien? Brissett only threw for one TD and Tolzien threw for two.

Brissett is better than Tolzien by virtue of not BEING Tolzien....

[jcwcoltsfan]

1 minute ago, jcwcoltsfan said:

How can you guys say that Brissett is better than Tolzien? Brissett didn't thow one TD and Tolzien threw for two.

 

[PrincetonTiger]

1 minute ago, BlueShoe said:

One thing is for sure, and we can all agree with this.

 

Our local media is reading this forum, and we just gave them the next big question to ask Ballard and Pagano. They're going to ask whose decision it was to stick with Tolzien, and not address the quarterback position sooner. They will ask about the inner workings of the organization. 

 

I am not sure if you have noticed, but a lot of their questions are stolen from the conversations we have on this board. We have been doing most of the Colts media work for years. 

I guess I am responsible for the softball questions 

[Jason_]

13 minutes ago, BlueShoe said:

 

So I think we are close to landing this plane - I hope.

 

I think what you're failing to understand is, if Pagano leads Ballard in the wrong direction, then Ballard can fire Pagano.

 

Pagano should have told Ballard that we need to find someone to replace Tolzien. It should have been Paganos's top request. 

 

We are close. Where we disagree is that imo Ballard doesn't wait for chuck to request a replacement. If he did I would want a new GM. 

 

He doesn't get player grades from pagano. As I said before, he finds out what kind of players chuck wants and he finds the best quality player that meets those requirements. 

 

So, pagano simply cant lead Ballard in the wrong direction. Ballard isn't trusting grades that pagano gives him. Ballard and his staff make their own evaluations and assign their own grades, based on the requirements that pagano gives him. 

 

If ballard is only looking for positional upgrades when chuck requests one then ballard is the one who should be fired. 

[PrincetonTiger]

3 minutes ago, J@son said:

 

We are close. Where we disagree is that imo Ballard doesn't wait for chuck to request a replacement. He doesn't get player grades from pagano. As I said before, he finds out what kind of players chuck wants and he finds the best quality player that meets those requirements. 

 

So, pagano simply cant lead Ballard in the wrong direction. Ballard isn't trusting grades that pagano gives him. Ballard and his staff make their own evaluations and assign their own grades, based on the requirements that pagano gives him. 

 

If ballard is only looking for positional upgrades when chuck requests one then ballard is the one who should be fired. 

This is the problem with the Preseason since you rarely get an accurate reading of players

[gacoop1]

Totally agree 110% to start Brissett w/out a doubt.  Release Tolzien as in yesterday and bring back Morris to back up Brissett.  But if Pagano still the coach and the same OC and DC, close but no cigar, another loss.  Be lucky to reach     4 - 10  season.  At least one consolation for that record is a high draft choice....

[BlueShoe]

10 minutes ago, J@son said:

 

We are close. Where we disagree is that imo Ballard doesn't wait for chuck to request a replacement. He doesn't get player grades from pagano. As I said before, he finds out what kind of players chuck wants and he finds the best quality player that meets those requirements. 

 

So, pagano simply cant lead Ballard in the wrong direction. Ballard isn't trusting grades that pagano gives him. Ballard and his staff make their own evaluations and assign their own grades, based on the requirements that pagano gives him. 

 

If ballard is only looking for positional upgrades when chuck requests one then ballard is the one who should be fired. 

 

We are just not going to agree.  

 

The GM brings in talent that the coach requests. Players who specifically fit the style of offense and defense for the systems in place. If the coach fails to properly identify areas of weaknesses then he is held accountable by the GM.

 

The two work together, and based on the evaluations of the coaching staff, the GM makes decisions on what is most important to the team. Pagano should have been crying about having Tolzien as his #1 going into camp. They should have brought every free agent and recently retired player in for a tryout. This was a dire situation that was not handled correctly.

 

This is Ballard's first year. He needed Pagano to step up, and identify the situation as dire, much sooner. Pagano loves his players and sometimes to a fault. 

 

You have your opinion and I have mine. 

[Colts_Fan12]

2 hours ago, jvan1973 said:

Do you understand the gms job?

So pagano don't help or want anyone he just sits back and let's the GM pick everyone?

[Bleedin Blue]

1 hour ago, BlueShoe said:

 

This is not hard to figure out. Try to keep up.

 

1. Pagano was retained as the head coach for the 2017 season.

2. Chris Ballard was hired as the new GM of the Colts.

3. The Colts took 3 quarterbacks (Tolzien, Morris, and Walker) into training camp.

4. Before training camp started, Morris gets dumped to 3rd string for not practicing well. 

5. Tolzien entered training camp as the starter.

6. Tolzien played like crap in preseason.

7. Walker played like crap eating crap in the preseason.

8. Morris gave the team life and moved the ball up and down the field. 

9. At the end of preseason, the front office began to seriously worry about the quarterback position.

10. Ballard traded Phillip Dorsett for Jacoby Brissett. 

11. Brissett is announced as our future longterm backup to Andrew Luck.

12. Tolzien continues to stink up the joint in week 1.

13. Brissett replaces Tolzien in the second half of week 1. 

 

Chuck Pagano's job is to tell Chris Ballard where the team needs help the most. Chuck Pagano sets the roster and depth chart. Chuck Pagano signs off on every players importance and value. 

 

The GM's job is to weigh the value of the player (per the coaching staff) versus the cap (per the teams best interest). Chis Ballard's job is to find players for competition in specific positions that Chuck Pagano is requesting a need for.

 

The mishandling of Scott Tolzien is squarely on the shoulders of Chuck Pagano. He owns this complete failure.

 

That's just it, how do YOU know that Pagano wanted ST?  Were you there?  Did you hear him say that? Or did Pagano ask and Chris said there wasn't any one available worth  a the cap hit?  Dude, Billlicheck couldn't make ST a starting QB...how do you think Pagano can?    

[Jason_]

17 minutes ago, BlueShoe said:

 

We are just not going to agree.  

 

The GM brings in talent that the coach requests. Players who specifically fit the style of offense and defense for the systems in place. If the coach fails to properly identify areas of weaknesses then he is held accountable by the GM.

 

The two work together, and based on the evaluations of the coaching staff, the GM makes decisions on what is most important to the team. Pagano should have been crying about having Tolzien as his #1 going into camp. They should have brought every free agent and recently retired player in for a tryout. This was a dire situation that was not handled correctly.

 

This is Ballard's first year. He needed Pagano to step up, and identify the situation as dire, much sooner. Pagano loves his players and sometimes to a fault. 

 

You have your opinion and I have mine. 

 

http://m.colts.com/news/article-1/Offensive-Line-Potential-Surprising-Chris-Ballard-In-Analyzing-Colts-Roster/0004523b-d399-49c5-81cc-eb6180fdc490

 

"Over the past two months, Chris Ballard's main goal has been to thoroughly evaluate his roster"

 

Ballard, as he should have, did his own personal evaluation of the entire roster. He did not ask pagano where upgrades were needed because he already knew. What he asked pagano was what specific traits and attributes he should be looking for as he's performing upgrades. 

 

I don't see Ballard waiting to look for upgrades. He's always looking for upgrades and when he finds a guy he thinks will be an upgrade, he meets with chuck, or just brings that guy in and THEN lets chuck decide whether to keep the new guy or keep looking.

 

So once again, he didn't have to wait for Pagano's evaluations because he did his own. I'm sure they compared notes, but they each came up with their own grades individually first. So Ballard already knew where the problem areas were and where upgrades were needed. 

[BlueShoe]

8 minutes ago, J@son said:

 

http://m.colts.com/news/article-1/Offensive-Line-Potential-Surprising-Chris-Ballard-In-Analyzing-Colts-Roster/0004523b-d399-49c5-81cc-eb6180fdc490

 

"Over the past two months, Chris Ballard's main goal has been to thoroughly evaluate his roster"

 

Ballard, as he should have, did his own personal evaluation of the entire roster. He did not ask pagano where upgrades were needed because he already knew. What he asked pagano was what specific traits and attributes he should be looking for as he's performing upgrades. 

 

I don't see Ballard waiting to look for upgrades. He's always looking for upgrades and when he finds a guy he thinks will be an upgrade, he meets with chuck, or just brings that guy in and THEN lets chuck decide whether to keep the new guy or keep looking.

 

So once again, he didn't have to wait for Pagano's evaluations because he did his own. I'm sure they compared notes, but they each came up with their own grades individually first. So Ballard already knew where the problem areas were and where upgrades were needed. 

 

The most important ingredient in Ballard's evaluation is to talk to Chuck Pagano and the coaching staff about the team. To discuss the types of players who fit the system. To discuss what current players are working out and which ones are not. 

 

Have any of you ever watched Hard Knocks?

 

This is not a difficult process to figure out. 

[BlueShoe]

10 minutes ago, Bleedin Blue said:

 

That's just it, how do YOU know that Pagano wanted ST?  Were you there?  Did you hear him say that? Or did Pagano ask and Chris said there wasn't any one available worth  a the cap hit?  Dude, Billlicheck couldn't make ST a starting QB...how do you think Pagano can?    

 

Let's see, Pagano complained about Grigson meddling in coaching decisions. He was right. That should not have happened. Grigson was fired, and Pagano retained. New GM brought in that will stay in his lane. 

 

You are correct in that Belichick could not make Tolzien a starting quarterback. And that is the point, correct? Why did Pagano think his staff could make Tolzien a starting quarterback? That is where the incompetence comes in.

[Dark Superman]

3 hours ago, BlueShoe said:

This Scott Tolzien nightmare has to be over. For the love of God, please end this. 

 

Chuck Pagano is on the verge of losing his job, because of his decision to stay with Tolzien.

 

The Tolzien era is over, and it shouldn't have taken this long to figure out. You have to be kidding me to think that Stephen Morris would have played that terrible. Not that Morris was the answer either, because he is not. 

 

At least Brissett gives us a chance to win, because he belongs in this league. 

 

This season is far from over. It's just one game, but if we stay with Tolzien then I am 100% sure we will see a new coaching staff next year. 

 

You're getting a new coaching staff regardless of what happens this season.

[ReMeDy]

Can't we just bring back Bill Polian?... Oh, his son wants to join, too?... Sigh, fine.

[Jason_]

51 minutes ago, BlueShoe said:

 

The most important ingredient in Ballard's evaluation is to talk to Chuck Pagano and the coaching staff about the team. To discuss the types of players who fit the system. To discuss what current players are working out and which ones are not. 

 

Have any of you ever watched Hard Knocks?

 

This is not a difficult process to figure out. 

 

 

Mmmkay.  Ballard did his own, independent evaluation of the roster. Which no matter how you slice it is still a strike on Ballard as well. He evaluated tolzien so he had his own opinion about whether to upgrade or not. According to your theory, pagano told Ballard that tolzien would be fine. If Ballard agreed then he is no better at talent evaluation than pagano. If that's not the case then he disagreed with pagano but let pagano change his mind. Either way, still a strike against Ballard no matter how you slice it.

 

But at this point, yeah agree to disagree. Imo, this is not something that can be blamed squarely on pagano.  Both Ballard and pagano evaluated tolzien. No matter what chucks opinion of tolzien was, Ballard still controls the roster.  

[BlueShoe]

7 hours ago, J@son said:

 

 

Mmmkay.  Ballard did his own, independent evaluation of the roster. Which no matter how you slice it is still a strike on Ballard as well. He evaluated tolzien so he had his own opinion about whether to upgrade or not. According to your theory, pagano told Ballard that tolzien would be fine. If Ballard agreed then he is no better at talent evaluation than pagano. If that's not the case then he disagreed with pagano but let pagano change his mind. Either way, still a strike against Ballard no matter how you slice it.

 

But at this point, yeah agree to disagree. Imo, this is not something that can be blamed squarely on pagano.  Both Ballard and pagano evaluated tolzien. No matter what chucks opinion of tolzien was, Ballard still controls the roster.  

 

Let's pretend I am your new supervisor, and we are in the business of cutting down trees. Your last supervisor was let go because he interfered with your ability to work effectively.

 

You have four tools for cutting the trees down. You have a state of the art chainsaw (Luck), but it's broken. You also have a hacksaw (Tolzien), a small chainsaw (Morris), and a pocket knife (Walker).

 

We have sent our state of the art chainsaw in for repair. The shop is waiting on a part, and unfortunately it's on the slow boat from China. 

 

The small chainsaw doesnt run well so you set it to the side and tryout the pocket knife. It's a Swiss Army style with all kinds of cool attachments. You stab the hell out of the tree with every option it has, but it barely leaves a dent. 

 

You're convinced that with the right amount of oil on the blade, this hacksaw will cut that tree like butter. You try every kind of oil on the blade; even butter. However, you just get worn the hell out. 

 

You grab the small chainsaw again and it's working better now, but you just don't trust it to stay running and be effective. 

 

At this point I am questioning your competence in cutting down trees. You have told me you believed in using a hacksaw and a knife to cut down a tree, and tossed the only working chainsaw. 

 

You spent a lot of time with the small chainsaw, the knife, and the hacksaw. Finally, I buy the best replacement chainsaw that I can get. The pickings were tough, because it's cutting down tree season and there has been a run on seasoned tools.

 

I managed to find you a good one, but the chain needs to be sharpened, and you need to figure out how to use it.

 

You're supposed to be the expert in what you need to succeed. If you tell me that you can cut a tree down with a hacksaw then I am going to have my doubts. However, you're the expert so I will give you some room, especially since the last cat who had my job was fired for micromanaging you.

 

Best believe I will have a Help Wanted sign up on the next tree. 

[colts52761]

?

[Smitto]

It's all good, we're just "chopping wood"....  lol. Pagano needs to go coach high-school football... That is all. 

[Stephen]

Pagano said scotty just needs to be scotty well scotty isn't enough

[Dingus McGirt]

8 hours ago, Coltsman1788 said:

Rather than commenting on an isolated post perhaps take it in context with the conversation that Blue Shoe and I were having. I think you would see then that I am in no way advocating for Pagano as a coach.  Just responding to Blue Shoe and showing a mutual respect for Pagano's qualities as a man.  Fully aware that it has nothing to do with his worth as a coach...which I personally find to be wanting.

Sorry.  Not picking on your comment per se.   Just putting out a comment on the thought some still have that because he's a good guy, and had/has the Big C - he gets a break as a head coach.  

[Dingus McGirt]

7 hours ago, Colten18 said:

Agreed. Don't want to cut him. Just want to see if Brisett gives us a better chance of winning until Lucks back

He certainly doesn't give the Colts a worse chance...

[jvan1973]

8 hours ago, BlueShoe said:

 

I already mentioned that we looked at a veteran quarterback in another post, but maybe you did not read it. 

 

I disagree completely with your assessment of this situation. 

 

Ballard did not sign Tolzien. We signed him under the Grigson era. Chuck should have known better than to keep Tolzien around. Any competent coach would know that Tolzien is not the answer. Chick Pagano should have told Ballard that Tolzien is not our guy, but instead he believed in him. 

Ballard cut a lot of grigson players.   He could have cut tolzien  as well,   he chose not to. 

[lollygagger8]

With all this competition talk, can't we apply that to the coaching staff? 

 

 

[Jason_]

5 hours ago, BlueShoe said:

 

Let's pretend I am your new supervisor, and we are in the business of cutting down trees. Your last supervisor was let go because he interfered with your ability to work effectively.

 

You have four tools for cutting the trees down. You have a state of the art chainsaw (Luck), but it's broken. You also have a hacksaw (Tolzien), a small chainsaw (Morris), and a pocket knife (Walker).

 

We have sent our state of the art chainsaw in for repair. The shop is waiting on a part, and unfortunately it's on the slow boat from China. 

 

The small chainsaw doesnt run well so you set it to the side and tryout the pocket knife. It's a Swiss Army style with all kinds of cool attachments. You stab the hell out of the tree with every option it has, but it barely leaves a dent. 

 

You're convinced that with the right amount of oil on the blade, this hacksaw will cut that tree like butter. You try every kind of oil on the blade; even butter. However, you just get worn the hell out. 

 

You grab the small chainsaw again and it's working better now, but you just don't trust it to stay running and be effective. 

 

At this point I am questioning your competence in cutting down trees. You have told me you believed in using a hacksaw and a knife to cut down a tree, and tossed the only working chainsaw. 

 

You spent a lot of time with the small chainsaw, the knife, and the hacksaw. Finally, I buy the best replacement chainsaw that I can get. The pickings were tough, because it's cutting down tree season and there has been a run on seasoned tools.

 

I managed to find you a good one, but the chain needs to be sharpened, and you need to figure out how to use it.

 

You're supposed to be the expert in what you need to succeed. If you tell me that you can cut a tree down with a hacksaw then I am going to have my doubts. However, you're the expert so I will give you some room, especially since the last cat who had my job was fired for micromanaging you.

 

Beat believe I will have a Help Wanted sign up on the next tree. 

 

 

TL:DR. agree to disagree 

[John Waylon]

10 bucks says Tolzien starts and there's no doubt about it in Pagano's mind. 

[John Waylon]

11 minutes ago, lollygagger8 said:

With all this competition talk, can't we apply that to the coaching staff? 

 

 

 

A noble idea. 

 

Until you remember that they all seem to be just as incompetent as Pagano. 

 

Would probably just be shuffling the peanuts in the turd. 

[Jason_]

2 minutes ago, John Waylon said:

. 

 

Would probably just be shuffling the peanuts in the turd. 

 

Well that's just gross

[Restored]

Agree with the OP. There is no way the Colts can go forward with Tolzien. He doesn't have the arm strength this offense requires and does not go through his progressions at all. Brissett will still have a limited grasp of the playbook but he will no doubt be the better option.

[BlueShoe]

1 hour ago, jvan1973 said:

Ballard cut a lot of grigson players.   He could have cut tolzien  as well,   he chose not to. 

 

Yep. And I am sure Pagano wasn't a fan of keeping the players that Ballard cut. I think it goes without saying that Ballard asked Pagano his thoughts on the players and then weighed the value versus the costs. 

 

Cutting a player is not a decision Ballard is going to make without Pagano having a voice, especially in Ballard's first year. 

[BlueShoe]

1 hour ago, J@son said:

 

 

agree to disagree 

 

I can agree with that.  

[BlueShoe]

12 hours ago, krunk said:

Whos talking about Earl Morral? There is proof that Morris was likely the better quarterback over 2 seasons worth of preseason play. At the very least he has the arm strength to make the kind of throws this offense requires and he doesnt turn it over much. There really hasn't been overwhelming evidence Tolzien was ever the better option.

 

Exactly. And that is where I start to question Chuck Paganos competence. Love the man, but his decision making is starting to get very tough to justify. It's at times, bizarre. 

[pgt_rob]

Scotty doesn't know
Scotty doesn't know
Scotty doesn't know
Scotty's gotta go

[BlueShoe]

11 hours ago, sfergson727 said:

It gets worse, apparently we lost to the 49'ers too.  Pags said so in his presser, so we are now 0-2.

 

I saw that too. What and the world is he thinking. Colts.com edited that part out of his post press conference so I did not hear it at first. I later watched it at profootballtalk. 

 

Unreal.

[jvan1973]

2 minutes ago, BlueShoe said:

 

Excatly. And that is where I start to question Chuck Paganos competence. Love the man, but his decision making is starting to get very tough to justify. It's a times bizarre. 

Pagano didn't cut Morris