Jacoby Brissett Must Start in Week 2

[BlueShoe]

Just now, jvan1973 said:

Again wrong,  he waited  until a week before the season until he addressed the q.b. position.   He could have brought multiple guys  in before that. 

 

I know you are hell bent on putting it all on pagano,   but that's nonsense.  The gm didn't give him any other options

 

This is not hard to figure out. Try to keep up.

 

1. Pagano was retained as the head coach for the 2017 season.

2. Chris Ballard was hired as the new GM of the Colts.

3. The Colts took 3 quarterbacks (Tolzien, Morris, and Walker) into training camp.

4. Before training camp started, Morris gets dumped to 3rd string for not practicing well. 

5. Tolzien entered training camp as the starter.

6. Tolzien played like crap in preseason.

7. Walker played like crap eating crap in the preseason.

8. Morris gave the team life and moved the ball up and down the field. 

9. At the end of preseason, the front office began to seriously worry about the quarterback position.

10. Ballard traded Phillip Dorsett for Jacoby Brissett. 

11. Brissett is announced as our future longterm backup to Andrew Luck.

12. Tolzien continues to stink up the joint in week 1.

13. Brissett replaces Tolzien in the second half of week 1. 

 

Chuck Pagano's job is to tell Chris Ballard where the team needs help the most. Chuck Pagano sets the roster and depth chart. Chuck Pagano signs off on every players importance and value. 

 

The GM's job is to weigh the value of the player (per the coaching staff) versus the cap (per the teams best interest). Chis Ballard's job is to find players for competition in specific positions that Chuck Pagano is requesting a need for.

 

The mishandling of Scott Tolzien is squarely on the shoulders of Chuck Pagano. He owns this complete failure.

[Stephen]

23 minutes ago, PrincetonTiger said:

SM is not that QB

It doesnt matter if for some reason Luck missed the season and tolzien started all of it 0 and 16 would be likely.

[BlueShoe]

14 minutes ago, SaturdayAllDay said:

Ballard has been looking at QBs for months. Irsay even came out and said Ballard looked at free agents but ultimately decided they werent worth the money. If he was looking already then the coaches either already brought the need up or were aware that Ballard knew the need. He chose to save the cap space and waited until the Brissett trade to do anything about our QB situation. That puts it solely on Ballard. 

 

That doesnt mean Ballard needs to be fired. We knew we werent competing for a superbowl this yr anyways, its not like a backup qb was the difference. If anything it helps our draft slot.

 

But we cant blame Chuck for that move. There are 100 other things pointing out Chucks failures today. We dont need to make things up to prove hes incompetent. There is plenty of real evidence already. 

 

I already mentioned that we looked at a veteran quarterback in another post, but maybe you did not read it. 

 

I disagree completely with your assessment of this situation. 

 

Ballard did not sign Tolzien. We signed him under the Grigson era. Chuck should have known better than to keep Tolzien around. Any competent coach would know that Tolzien is not the answer. Chick Pagano should have told Ballard that Tolzien is not our guy, but instead he believed in him. 

[PrincetonTiger]

1 minute ago, Stephen said:

It doesnt matter if for some reason Luck missed the season and tolzien started all of it 0 and 16 would be likely.

Not Saying he should start anymore just until AL is back or someone with NFL experience arrives he needs to stay in the QB room because imo JB needs that

[Jason_]

4 minutes ago, BlueShoe said:

 

This is not hard to figure out. Try to keep up.

 

1. Pagano was retained as the head coach for the 2017 season.

2. Chris Ballard was hired as the new GM of the Colts.

3. The Colts took 3 quarterbacks (Tolzien, Morris, and Walker) into training camp.

4. Before training camp started, Morris gets dumped to 3rd string for not practicing well. 

5. Tolzien entered training camp as the starter.

6. Tolzien played like crap in preseason.

7. Walker played like crap eating crap in the preseason.

8. Morris gave the team life and moved the ball up and down the field. 

9. At the end of preseason, the front office began to seriously worry about the quarterback position.

10. Ballard traded Phillip Dorsett for Jacoby Brissett. 

11. Brissett is announced as our future longterm backup to Andrew Luck.

12. Tolzien continues to stink up the joint in week 1.

13. Brissett replaces Tolzien in the second half of week 1. 

 

Chuck Pagano's job is to tell Chris Ballard where the team needs help the most. Chuck Pagano sets the roster and depth chart. Chuck Pagano signs off on every players importance and value. 

 

The GM's job is to weigh the value of the player (per the coaching staff) versus the cap (per the teams best interest). Chis Ballard's job is to find players for competition in specific positions that Chuck Pagano is requesting a need for.

 

The mishandling of Scott Tolzien is squarely on the shoulders of Chuck Pagano. He owns this complete failure.

 

Its also the GMs job to evaluate current players. The coach tells the GM what kind of players he needs. The GM gets those players. He shouldnt be waiting for the coach to point out where upgrades are needed, the GM should be looking for upgrades for ALL (ok most) positions all the time. Ballard even said as much in several interviews. 

 

I dont out this all on ballard, but I dont put it all on chuck either. They share the responsibility imo. 

[Stephen]

Just now, PrincetonTiger said:

Not Saying he should start anymore just until AL is back or someone with NFL experience arrives he needs to stay in the QB room because imo JB needs that

No Luck can be in qb room. 

[PrincetonTiger]

1 minute ago, Stephen said:

No Luck can be in qb room. 

More eyes that know what they ar doing the better

[BlueShoe]

Just now, J@son said:

 

Its also the GMs job to evaluate current players. The coach tells the GM what kind of players he needs. The GM gets those players. He shouldnt be waiting for the coach to point out where upgrades are needed, the GM should be looking for upgrades for ALL (ok most) positions all the time. Ballard even said as much in several interviews. 

 

I dont out this all on ballard, but I dont put it all on chuck either. They share the responsibility imo. 

 

Ballard is the new face. He was brought in because his predecessor meddled too much in coaching decisions. 

 

Ballard makes his decisions based on the recommendations of the coaching staff.

[Stephen]

1 minute ago, PrincetonTiger said:

More eyes that know what they ar doing the better

Tolzien doesnt know what he is doing. If he teaches brissett to play like him we are doomed lol

[Jason_]

2 minutes ago, BlueShoe said:

 

Ballard is the new face. He was brought in because his predecessor meddled too much in coaching decisions. 

 

Ballard makes his decisions based on the recommendations of the coaching staff.

 

Ballards job, in his own words, is to constantly churn the roster to have the best 63 players he possibly can. That means monitoring every position. That means looking for upgrades at every position without having to be asked to do so.

[PrincetonTiger]

2 minutes ago, Stephen said:

Tolzien doesnt know what he is doing. If he teaches brissett to play like him we are doomed lol

people can struggle on the field but do well in the film rooms and practice(PT) 

[BlueShoe]

3 minutes ago, J@son said:

 

Ballards job, in his own words, is to constantly churn the roster to have the best 63 players he possibly can. That means monitoring every position. That means looking for upgrades at every position without having to be asked to do so.

 

Yes. And this means that Chuck needs to tell him that we are in dire needs at backup quarterback. 

 

Instead, Chuck vouched for Tolzien. 

[PrincetonTiger]

Just now, BlueShoe said:

 

Yes. And this means that Chuck needs to tell him that we are in dire needs at backup quarterback. 

 

Instead, Chuck vouched for Tolzien. 

Since CB has a coaching background he probably can do that on his own

[BlueShoe]

Just now, PrincetonTiger said:

Since CB has a coaching background he probably can do that on his own

 

Is he supposed to call the plays too?

[PrincetonTiger]

4 minutes ago, BlueShoe said:

 

Is he supposed to call the plays too?

No he handle evaluations himself

[Jason_]

5 minutes ago, BlueShoe said:

 

Yes. And this means that Chuck needs to tell him that we are in dire needs at backup quarterback. 

 

Instead, Chuck vouched for Tolzien. 

 

You are just assuming that. Ballard has evaluated the current roster and he and his staff are the ones who pay the most attention to the waiver wire, trade block and available free agents. My point? THEY know who's available far better than chuck does because chuck spends his time coaching his current players. 

 

Ballard job is to monitor that waiver wire, trade block and available free agent list for any opportunity to upgrade any position. 

 

Bottom line is Ballard would present available options to chuck and they evaluate each one together, making the shared determination on which moves to act on and which ones to not. They both said they evaluated the situation several times and they agreed a better option was not available for a price they'd have been willing to pay. 

 

Like it or not, they share this decision.

[NDcolt]

26 minutes ago, BlueShoe said:

 

This is not hard to figure out. Try to keep up.

 

1. Pagano was retained as the head coach for the 2017 season.

2. Chris Ballard was hired as the new GM of the Colts.

3. The Colts took 3 quarterbacks (Tolzien, Morris, and Walker) into training camp.

4. Before training camp started, Morris gets dumped to 3rd string for not practicing well. 

5. Tolzien entered training camp as the starter.

6. Tolzien played like crap in preseason.

7. Walker played like crap eating crap in the preseason.

8. Morris gave the team life and moved the ball up and down the field. 

9. At the end of preseason, the front office began to seriously worry about the quarterback position.

10. Ballard traded Phillip Dorsett for Jacoby Brissett. 

11. Brissett is announced as our future longterm backup to Andrew Luck.

12. Tolzien continues to stink up the joint in week 1.

13. Brissett replaces Tolzien in the second half of week 1. 

 

Chuck Pagano's job is to tell Chris Ballard where the team needs help the most. Chuck Pagano sets the roster and depth chart. Chuck Pagano signs off on every players importance and value. 

 

The GM's job is to weigh the value of the player (per the coaching staff) versus the cap (per the teams best interest). Chis Ballard's job is to find players for competition in specific positions that Chuck Pagano is requesting a need for.

 

The mishandling of Scott Tolzien is squarely on the shoulders of Chuck Pagano. He owns this complete failure.

Sorry Blue Shoe but you have it totally backwards, Chuck has no say whatsoever on the QB decision!!!  This is all on the GM & Don't understand why people are getting this Wrong.  Why would Ballard let someone else make him look bad, would you?

[Devildog]

My wife and I were at the game and it was a nightmare. 

 

#startthefirechuckwagon

[open window]

1 hour ago, jvan1973 said:

Make no mistake  about it.   Pagano has no control over personnel changes.   Ballard has  been at every practice and preseason game.  The fact that tolzien is still here ultimately falls on him.  There is no argument

There is an argument 

[PrincetonTiger]

1 minute ago, NDcolt said:

Sorry Blue Shoe but you have it totally backwards, Chuck has no say whatsoever on the QB decision!!!  This is all on the GM & Don't understand why people are getting this Wrong.  Why would Ballard let someone else make him look bad, would you?

No

[BlueShoe]

Just now, J@son said:

 

You are just assuming that. Ballard has evaluated the current roster and he and his staff are the ones who pay the most attention to the waiver wire, trade block and available free agents. My point? THEY know who's available far better than chuck does because chuck spends his time coaching his current players. 

 

Ballard job is to monitor that waiver wire, trade block and available free agent list for any opportunity to upgrade any position. 

 

Bottom line is Ballard would present available options to chuck and they evaluate each one together, making the shared determination on which moves to act on and which ones to not. They both said they evaluated the situation several times and they agreed a better option was not available for a price they'd have been willing to pay. 

 

Like it or not, they share this decision.

 

There is no doubt Ballard and Pagano evaluated the backup quarterback position together. They did this with every position. It is Chuck's responsibility to assign a value to each player. The GM (Ballard) then uses that value to determine if any moves are necessary. 

[PrincetonTiger]

1 minute ago, BlueShoe said:

 

There is no doubt Ballard and Pagano evaluated the backup quarterback position together. They did this with every position. It is Chuck's responsibility to assign a value to each player. The GM (Ballard) then uses that value to determine if any moves are necessary. 

But as the GM every personnel issues stops with CB on the field play falls on CP

[krunk]

8 minutes ago, NDcolt said:

Sorry Blue Shoe but you have it totally backwards, Chuck has no say whatsoever on the QB decision!!!  This is all on the GM & Don't understand why people are getting this Wrong.  Why would Ballard let someone else make him look bad, would you?

So when Tom Savage got yanked today for Watson it was Rick Smith who called down from the booth and told Obrien to do that? If its about not allowing someone to make you look stupid then Smith allows him to start from day one. And what about when Obrien yanked Osweiler for Savage? The same QB that Smith paid millions for. You think Smith told Obrien to do that? Those are coaches calls not the GM. In terms of the Colts Chris Ballards already stated he doesn't get involved in decisions coaches should be making. Who plays and who sits are coaches decisions.

[BlueShoe]

6 minutes ago, NDcolt said:

Sorry Blue Shoe but you have it totally backwards, Chuck has no say whatsoever on the QB decision!!!  This is all on the GM & Don't understand why people are getting this Wrong.  Why would Ballard let someone else make him look bad, would you?

 

The Grigson regime has really messed this fan base up. That IS NOT the way it works!!!

 

GM's do not make the decision of who starts and who sits. Coaches make those decisions. 

 

It was Chuck Pagano's call to stick with Tolzien. 

[Jason_]

12 minutes ago, BlueShoe said:

 

There is no doubt Ballard and Pagano evaluated the backup quarterback position together. They did this with every position. It is Chuck's responsibility to assign a value to each player. The GM (Ballard) then uses that value to determine if any moves are necessary. 

 

No, chuck assigns values to specific player attributes. To tell the GM what skill sets, what attributes he needs from each position. The GM gets the best players he can who possess those traits. And since the GM knows those traits, he'll then always be on the look out for better players than what he has, that also possess those traits. 

 

But I think I finally understand how you're seeing it. You think pagano says something like, hey tolzien is a 4. If someone better than a 4 comes along get him. 

 

That would kind of make sense but I just don't think that's how it works. That would mean Ballard puts complete trust in Pagano's grades without doing an evaluation of his own, and I don't think that's true. I think they evaluate the value/grade of each player individually and then compare notes. But, the GM is usually going to win when push comes to shove when it comes to final say on roster decisions. 

[Jason_]

5 minutes ago, krunk said:

So when Tom Savage got yanked today for Watson it was Rick Smith who called down from the booth and told him to do that? And what about when Obrien yanked Osweiler for Savage? The same QB that Smith paid millions for. You think Smith told Obrien to do that? Those are coaches calls not the GM. Ballards already stated he doesn't get involved in decisions coaches should be making. Who plays and who sits are coaches decisions.

 

Could be wrong but I think NDColt is talking about what QBs wind up on the roster, not which ones play. 

 

[BlueShoe]

4 minutes ago, PrincetonTiger said:

But as the GM every personnel issues stops with CB on the field play falls on CP

 

At the end of the season (or when deemed necessary), Chris Ballard can fire Chuck Pagano for assigning the incorrect values to players. Chuck Pagano cannot fire Chris Ballard. Chuck got an opportunity most coaches never get when Irsay fired Grigson and let him stick around. 

[gacoop1]

Totally in agreement.  How many times we say "Get rid of Pagano" Hope Irsay is reading these posts.  There must be some truth to these posts when over 90% says, get rid of the HC.  Xmas can't come any sooner, that's the deadline for his fate on staying with the team..

[BlueShoe]

7 minutes ago, krunk said:

So when Tom Savage got yanked today for Watson it was Rick Smith who called down from the booth and told him to do that? And what about when Obrien yanked Osweiler for Savage? The same QB that Smith paid millions for. You think Smith told Obrien to do that? Those are coaches calls not the GM. Ballards already stated he doesn't get involved in decisions coaches should be making. Who plays and who sits are coaches decisions.

 

Krunk,

 

I am not sure they're going to get this tonight. It might be a losing effort to help them understand it. Thanks for trying though.

[PrincetonTiger]

5 minutes ago, krunk said:

So when Tom Savage got yanked today for Watson it was Rick Smith who called down from the booth and told Obrien to do that? If its about not allowing someone to make you look stupid then Smith allows him to start from day one. And what about when Obrien yanked Osweiler for Savage? The same QB that Smith paid millions for. You think Smith told Obrien to do that? Those are coaches calls not the GM. In terms of the Colts Chris Ballards already stated he doesn't get involved in decisions coaches should be making. Who plays and who sits are coaches decisions.

There is a difference since BOB is a QB guru and CP is not

[krunk]

2 minutes ago, J@son said:

 

Could be wrong but I think NDColt is talking about what QBs wind up on the roster, not which ones play. 

 

I dont even think the GM makes that call without his coaches being in unison. Would cause internal conflict IMO

[krunk]

2 minutes ago, PrincetonTiger said:

There is a difference since BOB is a QB guru and CP is not

They been waiting on da guru for a while now. I think his Guru broke.

[PrincetonTiger]

Just now, krunk said:

I dont even think the GM makes that call without his coaches being in unison. Would cause internal conflict IMO

Agreed also this is not the time or place to fret about this because it will only cause problems since what we say means nothing to the Colts brain trust

[NDcolt]

Ok, I'll bite.  If this was Paganos decision, his butt would have been fired before halftime if I was the GM.  

[Colten18]

Without a doubt. A change needs to be made and he will have another week under his belt with the system. Keep it simple for him and we still have a better chance than with Tolzien

[PrincetonTiger]

Just now, krunk said:

They been waiting on da guru for a while now. I think his Guru broke.

As I said before he is not an O guy 

[GoColts8818]

Yeah sure even a watered down playbook can't be worse than Tolizen was today.

[PrincetonTiger]

Just now, Colten18 said:

Without a doubt. A change needs to be made and he will have another week under his belt with the system. Keep it simple for him and we still have a better chance than with Tolzien

Feeel exactly the same but with our current situation ST needs to stay on the roster until AL comes back

[Jason_]

2 minutes ago, krunk said:

I dont even think the GM makes that call without his coaches being in unison. Would cause internal conflict IMO

 

Blue shoe has been saying that keeping tolzien falls 100% on chuck. I think NDColt took it too far the other direction saying its only Ballard. 

 

I'm with you, its a combined effort so its on both. But, when therr are disagreements and a final decision has to be made, usually the GM has final say. In the rarer situations when the coach is given final say, its usually widely discussed in the media.  

[PrincetonTiger]

1 minute ago, GoColts8818 said:

Yeah sure even a watered down playbook can't be worse than Tolizen was today.

Very true