Mike And Mike This Morning

[GoColts8818]

If he's 70-80% and improving on March 8th you keep him

Maybe not. You don't know if he's going to get better.

I heard a doctor on the radio this weekend say the thing with nerves is you never know when, If, or HOW MUCH they are going to get better.

Maybe Peyton's 75% on March 8th. There is no promise he'll be 100% on opening day. He might reach a peak at 85% and that's as better as he's going to get.

You are taking a big risk if he's not 100% healthy on March 8th because of what happens to the cap if Peyton doesn't get 100% better by opening day and has to retire. That will cripple the franchise going forward. I don't like it anymore than anyone else on this forum. I hate it. I want Peyton Manning to be a Colt but not at the expense of the future of the franchise. I am sure Peyton Manning himself would even agree with that as much as he loves the team. He always talks about doing what is right and fair for the team. This is a man who honestly thought about pulling himself out of the AFCCG vs. the Pats because of his thumb because it wouldn't be fair to the rest of the guys on the team if he couldn't hit the passes. He's not going to ask the Colts to take a risk based on faith he'll get better knowing if he doesn't get better it will kill the franchise going forward with the cap. I think that's why Peyton can stand back and this and understand if the Colts do have to release him it's a business move and nothing personal because it is.

This is why people say the business side of sports stinks because it does. It's very cold and generally doesn't allow for you to do what you think is right with your heart. It makes you listen to your head and if you listen to your head on this one as much as it breaks your heart the smart thing to do if Peyton isn't healthy on March 8th is to release him. I hate it, I don't want it to happen and I am going to take no joy in being right if I am. In fact I want to be wrong about this.

[wercolts]

What people? Peyton and some fans! Of course Peyton thinks he will still be able to play, that don't mean anything. Just like people say they won't believe anything till they hear it from Peyton, Im not believing anything till I hear his doctors say he is 100% healed and ready to go. Im sure Irsay is expecting the same thing if he's going to pay out a 28 mil dollar bonus.

The people you say don't understand. It's not a matter of understanding, it's opinion based on what you believe. I just don't think you can narrow this one down to money and health because we don't have definitive answers on either. To me cut and run seems like a very hasty decision that has just as high a probability of failing as keeping Peyton does. Obviously I want and believe Peyton will return as a Colts but in the end it won't matter to me because I'll be at every game excited to see all the old and new, year after year after year. Watching the Colts gives me the same pregame butterflies I got when I was a kid playing and it always will.

[i am yoda]

Yes, exactly.

And the other side of the coin is true as well. If Peyton wants the Colts to pay him the option bonus, then it's in his best interest to win the PR battle by letting it slip out that he is getting better to the point that he is encouraged that he can play at the same pre-injury level- whether that's reality or not.

Why is no one talking about the possibility that Peyton and Irsay might renegotiate the contract to something that makes it palatable to keep a not yet fully healed Manning?

[UndecidedFrog]

Why is no one talking about the possibility that Peyton and Irsay might renegotiate the contract to something that makes it palatable to keep a not yet fully healed Manning?

Perhaps it is because it is not possible to renegotiate a contract in the same LY (league year, same concept as fiscal year) that it was originally entered into.

[GoColts8818]

Why is no one talking about the possibility that Peyton and Irsay might renegotiate the contract to something that makes it palatable to keep a not yet fully healed Manning?

Well there are conflicting reports on if you can do this. The NFLPA has said you can't but like I've said I learned a long time ago when a sports union says you can't do something what the are really saying is they don't want you to do it.

From there the troublesome part of this is I think Firejimcaldwell laid out a post about how even if you redo Peyton's contract you can't get ride of the cap hit if he's released. The only thing you can do when you redo is a contract is just move the money that is currently there around. You can't get ride of it.

With that said you might be able to open the door to push the deadline back to give Peyton more time but frankly you have to know really by the time you start signing free agents and the draft because having or not having Peyton Manning has a large impact on the other moves you can do with your football team and how you might want to shape your football team going forward.

[Larry Horseman]

Yeah he is so great, I wouldn't put a waiver claim in for Kyle Orton If I was so sure.

There is no way JJ is looking for a new starting QB. Did you ever think it was because Kitna was injured, JJ doesn't trust McGee, and Romo was dealing with broken ribs and getting hammered all year because of a crappy o-line? If you or JJ thinks that Kyle Orton is the answer over Romo, then I seriously question either of your abilities to evaluate NFL QB play. Without even going into any sort of detailed analysis, it says enough that Romo is 15 games above .500 and Orton is 1 game above .500 as a starter.

[John Dee]

Dakich just said on the radio... "It's amazing how so many people are so willing to spend somebody else's money"..

So true....

[Larry Horseman]

Perhaps it is because it is not possible to renegotiate a contract in the same LY (league year, same concept as fiscal year) that it was originally entered into.

This may or may not be true. The NFLPA says it can't be done, the NFL says it can. I have read the CBA and can see how it can be interpreted both ways. If PM and the Colts really wanted to push the date, I'm sure the NFLPA would file a grievance and there would be some sort of mediation.

Dakich just said on the radio... "It's amazing how so many people are so willing to spend somebody else's money"..

So true....

It's also true that so many people are so willing NOT to spend somebody else's money.

[UndecidedFrog]

This may or may not be true. The NFLPA says it can't be done, the NFL says it can. I have read the CBA and can see how it can be interpreted both ways. If PM and the Colts really wanted to push the date, I'm sure the NFLPA would file a grievance and there would be some sort of mediation.

Knowing how mediation, arbitration and lawsuits work, I don't think there is adequate time remaining between now and the option exercise date to do any of that.

[Larry Horseman]

Knowing how mediation, arbitration and lawsuits work, I don't think there is adequate time remaining between now and the option exercise date to do any of that.

This is a valid point and I brought it up in another thread. Although, if they started the ball rolling next week, it could happen. BTW, I hope, but do not think, this will happen.

[Malakai432]

Peyton is a known quantity, even at less than 100% he's a better bet than anyone currently on the roster, and anyone who's never played a down in the NFL.

The problem with Peyton playing @ less than perfect is that he could risk serious injury if he's not perfect. Why would you want him playing and risking another injury if he's not 100%? If he can't improve to 100% perhaps that could mean something is still not right. Then you have to factor in all the $ on top of that. He has to be 100% and cleared by the docs, the NFL isn't a kind sport, people will be gunning for him. Just my opinion.

[buccolts]

What im saying is, if they see other guys contracts a waste, then why would they replace those players with other guys who were at the same skill level? They would obviously want upgrades to those players which would cost more money.

If we're truly moving to a new defensive system, then the issue would be more about 'skill set' instead of 'skill level'.

There was another thread that spoke of the salary cap, and how we had $20M to offer the rookies, and sign FA.

And that number already took into account paying PM.

The speculation that cutting PM and reducing Freeney's cap hit would get us up to $30M to play with.

Last I looked, no one disputed those numbers.

[Jeff Hatley]

It's just an anaolgy. Lighten up!

Wow! Some of you people really need to get your priorties straight.

[wercolts]

The problem with Peyton playing @ less than perfect is that he could risk serious injury if he's not perfect. Why would you want him playing and risking another injury if he's not 100%? If he can't improve to 100% perhaps that could mean something is still not right. Then you have to factor in all the $ on top of that. He has to be 100% and cleared by the docs, the NFL isn't a kind sport, people will be gunning for him. Just my opinion.

not at any more risk than any other player. You're not paying close enough attention

[buccolts]

The problem with Peyton playing @ less than perfect is that he could risk serious injury if he's not perfect. Why would you want him playing and risking another injury if he's not 100%? If he can't improve to 100% perhaps that could mean something is still not right. Then you have to factor in all the $ on top of that. He has to be 100% and cleared by the docs, the NFL isn't a kind sport, people will be gunning for him. Just my opinion.

My mind's spinning in this conversation right now, but I'm certain it's been said that there's no more risk of serious injury than any other player, and that the only real question is if his arm will ever be 100% again.

Could be wrong, but ??????

[UndecidedFrog]

If we're truly moving to a new defensive system, then the issue would be more about 'skill set' instead of 'skill level'.

There was another thread that spoke of the salary cap, and how we had $20M to offer the rookies, and sign FA.

And that number already took into account paying PM.

The speculation that cutting PM and reducing Freeney's cap hit would get us up to $30M to play with.

Last I looked, no one disputed those numbers.

I haven't done the numbers to arrive at the team salary cap space for 2012.

But if we are to assume the numbers you have quoted are correct, here are a few scenarios for you to consider:

Scenario 1: Peyton gets the $28MM option bonus and plays the 2012 season. This equates to a cap hit of $17MM for 2012, which should be already counted in your numbers quoted above. In which case, you will have $20MM to sign FAs and rookies (including Luck?)

Scenario 2: Peyton does not get the option bonus and is cut. This equates to a cap hit of $10.4MM for 2012 (and nothing thereafter), which will increase the $20MM you can play with to $26.6MM.

Scenario 3: Peyton gets the $28MM option bonus but retires/is cut before June 1. This equates to a cap hit of $38.4MM for 2012, which will now put you in the hole of finding $1.4MM, with $0 to sign FAs and rookies (including Luck?)

Scenario 4: Peyton gets the $28MM option bonus but retires/is cut after June 1, but before the season starts. This equates to a cap hit of $19.2MM for 2012 (and again for 2013), which will decrease the $20MM you can play with to $17.8MM for 2012.

I hope this was helpful.

[buccolts]

not at any more risk than any other player. You're not paying close enough attention

Yes, but in all fairness, there's a lot of information, opinions, and ideas flying around.

Hard to keep score on some of these issues.

[buccolts]

I haven't done the numbers to arrive at the team salary cap space for 2012. But if we are to assume the numbers you have quoted are correct, here are a few scenarios for you to consider: Scenario 1: Peyton gets the $28MM option bonus and plays the 2012 season. This equates to a cap hit of $17MM for 2012, which should be already counted in your numbers quoted above. In which case, you will have $20MM to sign FAs and rookies (including Luck?) Scenario 2: Peyton does not get the option bonus and is cut. This equates to a cap hit of $10.4MM for 2012 (and nothing thereafter), which will increase the $20MM you can play with to $26.6MM. Scenario 3: Peyton gets the $28MM option bonus but retires/is cut before June 1. This equates to a cap hit of $38.4MM for 2012, which will now put you in the hole of finding $1.4MM, with $0 to sign FAs and rookies (including Luck?) Scenario 4: Peyton gets the $28MM option bonus but retires/is cut after June 1, but before the season starts. This equates to a cap hit of $19.2MM for 2012 (and again for 2013), which will decrease the $20MM you can play with to $17.8MM for 2012. I hope this was helpful.

In scenario 1, I don't see a problem in signing the rookies, but it'd leave us with maybe $12M to sign FAs? It would force you to sign lesser players. However, isn't there the opportunity to restructure or cut other contracts to free up additional cash?

However, since you're one of the people on the board who has a grasp of the cap implications, could you comment on a scenario 5?

In scenario 5, PM retires today, doesn't get his $28M, then signs a new contract with the Colts in June when he's cleared and ready to go.

No, I'm not "delusional", as some like to accuse. I'm just curious.

[Malakai432]

not at any more risk than any other player. You're not paying close enough attention

Well like you said earlier noone knows. I did hear Irsay say in an interview though that he's not going to take a risk on Manning unless he's healthy and ready to go. I don't think a 70-80% healthy Manning is going to cut it for Irsay.

[UndecidedFrog]

In scenario 1, I don't see a problem in signing the rookies, but it'd leave us with maybe $12M to sign FAs? It would force you to sign lesser players. However, isn't there the opportunity to restructure or cut other contracts to free up additional cash?

However, since you're one of the people on the board who has a grasp of the cap implications, could you comment on a scenario 5?

In scenario 5, PM retires today, doesn't get his $28M, then signs a new contract with the Colts in June when he's cleared and ready to go.

No, I'm not "delusional", as some like to accuse. I'm just curious.

In scenario 1, you would need to set aside some cap monies to sign your #1 overall pick and perhaps your second round pick as well. I have projected Luck to hit the 2012 cap at $4.2MM, and I would estimate the 2nd rounder to hit at half of that. Therefore if you had $20 to play with, you now have $13.7 to play with, which isn't a lot. Yes, there is always opportunity to restructure or cut other contracts to free up additional cash. However, you would have to look at each of these, for cutting them prior to expiration might have negative cap consequences too (like Peyton's).

In your scenario 5, if Peyton does not get paid the option bonus, and retires today, the cap hit to 2012 will be $10.4MM. Any new contract, depending on its structure will be on top of that. IOW, if the new contract hits the 2012 cap any more than $6.6MM, that will eat into your $20MM you have to play with.

[buccolts]

In scenario 1, you would need to set aside some cap monies to sign your #1 overall pick and perhaps your second round pick as well. I have projected Luck to hit the 2012 cap at $4.2MM, and I would estimate the 2nd rounder to hit at half of that. Therefore if you had $20 to play with, you now have $13.7 to play with, which isn't a lot. Yes, there is always opportunity to restructure or cut other contracts to free up additional cash. However, you would have to look at each of these, for cutting them prior to expiration might have negative cap consequences too (like Peyton's).

In your scenario 5, if Peyton does not get paid the option bonus, and retires today, the cap hit to 2012 will be $10.4MM. Any new contract, depending on its structure will be on top of that. IOW, if the new contract hits the 2012 cap any more than $6.6MM, that will eat into your $20MM you have to play with.

Thanks for the info.

In scenario 5, I'd expect any new contract to be back loaded, since the cap is expected to remain the same until I believe 2014(?).

[UndecidedFrog]

Thanks for the info.

In scenario 5, I'd expect any new contract to be back loaded, since the cap is expected to remain the same until I believe 2014(?).

You're welcome.

I have projected the total team cap in 2012 to be $121.1MM, growing at 1% per year until 2014, when the TV revenues are expected to jump. At which time, I have projected a 10% jump, then back down to 2% increases per year thereafter.

2012: $121.2MM

2013: $122.4MM

2014: $134.7MM

2015: $137.3MM

Also, you may want to consider the attractiveness of a back-loaded contract to Peyton/Condon, given these facts:

1) His current contract is front-loaded in terms of real money

2) He is aging.

[BmoreColt]

There is no way JJ is looking for a new starting QB. Did you ever think it was because Kitna was injured, JJ doesn't trust McGee, and Romo was dealing with broken ribs and getting hammered all year because of a crappy o-line? If you or JJ thinks that Kyle Orton is the answer over Romo, then I seriously question either of your abilities to evaluate NFL QB play. Without even going into any sort of detailed analysis, it says enough that Romo is 15 games above .500 and Orton is 1 game above .500 as a starter.

I really hope your joking thinking that I think Orton is better than romo. I am saying I don't think jerry is sold on romo and he wants to win now, therefore Dallas could be a dark horse team.

[oldunclemark]

Just got done watching a segment of M&M and of course the topic is where might PM go when/if he is cut next week (from Schefter's mouth). They went through a bunch of places with Arizona fitting the bill of what Manning would be looking for. They mentioned Seattle but dismissed that being someplace he would like to go, not sure why thats the case. Here is what I see:

AFC North- I just can't see him wanting to finish up a career in any of those citys with possibly the exception of Baltimore and I think Baltimore would be wise to stick with Flacco in the long term rather than flirt with a short term Manning trial. No way in Cleveland and the other 2 teams are set at QB.

AFC East- Again, I can't see him going to play 2 games a year against the Pats for the division win. I don't think it will be good to have both Mannings in New York either so I don't see that working out well. Also a lot of outdoor cold games to be played, who wants that?

AFC South- Houston has a very good QB now, Jax won't spend that kinda money IMO to get him but would be interesting although they too have kinda been in rebuild mode for awhile now and MJD is aging. Tennessee, well I think this is the place to go if he goes anywhere and will discuss at the end.

AFC West- Chargers have a probowl QB now so no. Radiers are the raiders and have a lot of money and 1st round picks lost to their qb's now so I don't see that a place he would choose. Denver could be a dark horse landing spot if behind the scenes, the bosses really understand that Tebow is barely good enough to keep them in games at best but is a marketing tool. So is Peyton and he is a winner on and off the field. KC would be an intriguing landing spot as well. They have a very nice structure their. Good RB, nice defense, players coach, history of football etc...

NFC North-Green Bay, why discuss it.NO! No to Detroit, very solid QB already in place. Chicago could happen but again, your playing a lot of outdoor cold games and the Bears have a disfunctional front office/owner situation IMO. Minny, MEH, I just could imagine it but it is a possibility. He could have Charlie Johnson protecting his blindside again

NFC East-No way does he play on any team that could upstage his little brother, not at this stage in his career. No way!

NFC South-Tampa Bay is the only spot I could see him landing, the other teams have their guy already in place. That team seems to be a cesspool of talent though IMO. Don't see it.

NFC West-I could see any one of these 4 teams bidding for his services but only Arizona and San Fran having PM taking a serious look. St. Louis is a mess and I wouldn't want to spend my last 3-4 years trying to resurrect a team in order to acheive the pinnacle of his sport, a SB win. I guess I could see Seattle putting a serious push for him. Owner has the money if he wants to pay it, the team overall seems workable and we have all seen what a healthy PM can do for a garbage team.

So my overall thought is Tennessee would be the team, if offered, that Manning would choose to go to. 1) its his home away from home and look at his worship from his college days. He would own the town day 1. 2) That defense is solid 3) he has a good oline there 4) a top shelf (weird) RB 5) and just an organization that would bend over backwards for him. I cant believe talking heads have not even mentioned this stop as a posibility.

1. Tennesee

2. KC

3 San Fran

4. Arizona

5. Seattle

6. Tampa

7. Minny

8. Chicago

9. Jets

10. Miami

Thats my list in order but I am hopeful the number one destination is either Indy or retired as a Colt!!

I hope he stays, too ..

But Jerry Jones woud lay down big bucks.

[rockywoj]

Perhaps it is because it is not possible to renegotiate a contract in the same LY (league year, same concept as fiscal year) that it was originally entered into.

I said it elsewhere, as a billionaire owner, I would have the best legal minds working on proving that a "deferral" of a payment is NOT a renegotiation under the definitions of the CBA.

[UndecidedFrog]

I said it elsewhere, as a billionaire owner, I would have the best legal minds working on proving that a "deferral" of a payment is NOT a renegotiation under the definitions of the CBA.

I don't doubt that there will be very expensive legal minds attempting to interpret the rules one way over another.

I also don't doubt that the NFLPA will hire equally expensive legal minds to do similarly the other way.

What I do doubt is that there may not be sufficient time (between now and March 8) to mediate/arbitrate/sue to get an agreeable settlement of the issue.

[WSO]

49ers or Jets

Arizona is intruging with the amount of offensive talent they would have but the defense isn't exactly good. Miami doesn't have a great defense either much like Arizona but a lot of offensive talent.

[jwilli69]

I hope he stays, too ..

But Jerry Jones woud lay down big bucks.

I have no doubts that Jerry Jones would give his left testie to have Manning but my whole thought process is that I don;t think Manning wants to be in the same division as his brother and have that whole what if Manning knocks Manning out of the division title or worse, out of the playoffs. I really think if Manning leaves for another team, money is not close to important for him, a chance at another title will be and not conflicting with his brother at the same time. I could be wrong and he ends up in Dallas or with the Jets but I just cant see it.

[The Fish]

I always thought Eli wanted to stay out of the Afc, when he did whatever it was he did to the bolts. Peyton would not play in the NFC east.

[WoolMagnet]

I found it very interesting what Brian Billick had to say.

he said that it wouldn't be that easy for manning to "transition" to another team due to the way he has signs and unspoken signals with receivers, timing, the way HE runs practices, etc.

Add to that a new system (Manning's system) which no other team and coaching staff will run , etc.

However, some teams will probably still line up to get him.

I haven't heard Baltimore would be interested but with caldwell there, they might be ablt to "transition" manning more easily than others, IMO.

[JoKeR]

Dakich just said on the radio... "It's amazing how so many people are so willing to spend somebody else's money"..

So true....

Its amazing how so many people are willing to save someone else's money, even when that someone paid someone millions upon millions to sit and be evaluated for a year.