Dorsett

[SaturdayAllDay]

27 minutes ago, Flash7 said:

I have no doubt that Wayne was a good mentor to T.Y.

 

During the Pagano era, Reggie was around several other Colts receivers, yet only T.Y. emerged as a real threat. There is no way to separate what the coaches taught T.Y. and what Reggie taught him. All we know is that based on T.Y.'s skill set and desire to get better, he improved.

In addition I also think Hilton did better in his younger years simply because he was being used in the offense. In his first two years he had 228 targets over 31 games. In contrast, Dorsett has seen 98 targets in his first two years (only 26 games though). 

This is pretty much based on 3 potential factors. 1- he can't get open, 2- he is far down the progression list, and 3- luck simply locks on to Hilton in certain situations.  I think it is a bit of all 3. Unfortunately only one of those things are his fault, and all 3 can be fixed by better coaching/scheming. Coaches can teach Dorsett to run better routes to get open, they can scheme better routes go get him open, or even use what skills he has on designed plays like WR screens. 

Obviously he has some things to work on (much like Hilton he has drop issues early in his career and he's not the most precise route runner) but I think his lack of results is more due to coaching then anything else. 

[jvan1973]

19 minutes ago, SaturdayAllDay said:

In addition I also think Hilton did better in his younger years simply because he was being used in the offense. In his first two years he had 228 targets over 31 games. In contrast, Dorsett has seen 98 targets in his first two years (only 26 games though). 

This is pretty much based on 3 potential factors. 1- he can't get open, 2- he is far down the progression list, and 3- luck simply locks on to Hilton in certain situations.  I think it is a bit of all 3. Unfortunately only one of those things are his fault, and all 3 can be fixed by better coaching/scheming. Coaches can teach Dorsett to run better routes to get open, they can scheme better routes go get him open, or even use what skills he has on designed plays like WR screens. 

Obviously he has some things to work on (much like Hilton he has drop issues early in his career and he's not the most precise route runner) but I think his lack of results is more due to coaching then anything else. 

Not to mention,  He isn't on the field in 2 wr sets

[Architects08]

I have been Anti-Dorsett since we drafted him and he hasn't done anything to prove me wrong, however I hope that he does. 

[will426]

Don't compare Dorsett to Reggie because Reggie had Peyton he was gonna get thrown the ball regardless because manning expected him to be in the right spot..Dorsett has luck who pretty much looks at Hilton Doyle and  turbin (moncrief only in the red zone) 

[AZColt11]

Not a bust but you could argue for value at that pick.  BUT, and this is important to remember, Wayne wasn't doing anything until his 3rd season.  I think we will know more after 2017, unless he's hurt again, at which point the decision will have already been determined.

[Solon]

Did anyone read Superman's piece on our offense? We're clearly not utilizing him correctly.

[RockThatBlue]

35 minutes ago, Solon said:

Did anyone read Superman's piece on our offense? We're clearly not utilizing him correctly.

I do agree hes not being used correctly, but regardless Dorsett does not make the best of his opportunities no matter how hes being used. When he has chances to make plays, he usually doesn't. Hopefully he improves.

[Solon]

7 minutes ago, RockThatBlue said:

I do agree hes not being used correctly, but regardless Dorsett does not make the best of his opportunities no matter how hes being used. When he has chances to make plays, he usually doesn't. Hopefully he improves.

That's true. I remember that game when he dropped nearly everything that came his way.

[Defjamz26]

Dorsett is a bust

 

The minute you have to defend a guy by bringing up a past example of an exception to the rule like saying look at Wayne his first couple of seasons, is the minute you know you probably have a bust because you're already making excuses.

 

And that's where my case will start; excuses. The most common one is "Well they don't know how to use him". I find this idea absurd. You're telling me that a whole bunch of seasoned NFL coaches don't know how to use a talented player? We applauded them for how they used Turbin, but Dorsett is a head scratcher ? That's hard to swallow. Coaches will find a way to use talented players. That's what they did with Hilton. He did PR for awhile and was a 3rd WR. They used to run him out the backfield too and throw him screens. Then he broke out and became a number 1. 

 

I just have a hard time believing veteran coaches are scratching their head on what to do with Dorsett. It's different if this was Christian McCaffery who we know can make plays, but we're talking about a guy who wasn't even good in college. Didn't even have a 1,000 yard season at Miami. 

 

And that brings me to my second point: his attributes. Dorsett is fast and nothing else. People knock TY all the time because he's not 6'3" but neither is Dorsett. Dorsett is small and fast which there are plenty of every year in the draft. Fast 5'11" receivers who run in the 4.2's-4.3's are in just about every draft class. Dorsett has no notable attributes outside of that. Remember that this was a guy who couldn't even handle PR and KR. 2 seasons is not too soon to judge him either. The biggest jump a player makes is from year 1 to 2.

 

And let's not forget his position on the team. He's basically a WR3. If you draft a guy in the first round and he's just a WR3 then that's a bust. Chester Rodgers was an UDFA and outplayed him. Reggie Wayne struggled too but how long are we going to keep pointing towards past examples of rare exceptions to the rule with Grigson picks? We did the same thing with Werner when we knew he was a bad pick from day 1. People tried to use Marshawn Lynch when he was with Buffalo to defend Richardson. History is repeating itself with Dorsett.

[DougDew]

14 hours ago, Flash7 said:

I think Dorsett is a good receiver that was drafted well before he should have been. The Colts, especially should not have drafted him in the first round, IMO, with so many other pressing needs.

 

Dorsett's stats so far:

Drafted 1st Rd.  51 receptions   753 yards,  14.8 Avg.   3 TDs.

 

Other similar receivers in the same draft that I thought the Colts should have targeted:

Tyler Locket

Drafter 3rd Rd.   92 receptions   1,261 yards,  13.7 Avg. 7 TDs

 

Jamison Crowder

Drafted 4th rd.   126 Receptions   1,451 yds   11.5 Avg.  9 TDs

 

Dorsett is not a bust, but he definitely is not worth the first round draft pick that we gave up to get him. Sure, you could say that hind sight is 20/20, however, many of the analysts were comparing these 3 receivers to one another because of similarities in size and plying style. 

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000468283/article/jamison-crowder-among-top-undersized-wrs-in-2015-nfl-draft

If you read the descriptions of each WR, Dorsett easily sounds like the best of the crop. 

[DougDew]

22 minutes ago, Defjamz26 said:

Dorsett is a bust

 

The minute you have to defend a guy by bringing up a past example of an exception to the rule like saying look at Wayne his first couple of seasons, is the minute you know you probably have a bust because you're already making excuses.

 

And that's where my case will start; excuses. The most common one is "Well they don't know how to use him". I find this idea absurd. You're telling me that a whole bunch of seasoned NFL coaches don't know how to use a talented player? We applauded them for how they used Turbin, but Dorsett is a head scratcher ? That's hard to swallow. Coaches will find a way to use talented players. That's what they did with Hilton. He did PR for awhile and was a 3rd WR. They used to run him out the backfield too and throw him screens. Then he broke out and became a number 1. 

 

I just have a hard time believing veteran coaches are scratching their head on what to do with Dorsett. It's different if this was Christian McCaffery who we know can make plays, but we're talking about a guy who wasn't even good in college. Didn't even have a 1,000 yard season at Miami. 

 

And that brings me to my second point: his attributes. Dorsett is fast and nothing else. People knock TY all the time because he's not 6'3" but neither is Dorsett. Dorsett is small and fast which there are plenty of every year in the draft. Fast 5'11" receivers who run in the 4.2's-4.3's are in just about every draft class. Dorsett has no notable attributes outside of that. Remember that this was a guy who couldn't even handle PR and KR. 2 seasons is not too soon to judge him either. The biggest jump a player makes is from year 1 to 2.

 

And let's not forget his position on the team. He's basically a WR3. If you draft a guy in the first round and he's just a WR3 then that's a bust. Chester Rodgers was an UDFA and outplayed him. Reggie Wayne struggled too but how long are we going to keep pointing towards past examples of rare exceptions to the rule with Grigson picks? We did the same thing with Werner when we knew he was a bad pick from day 1. People tried to use Marshawn Lynch when he was with Buffalo to defend Richardson. History is repeating itself with Dorsett.

Just wrong in so many ways.  You can't compare TY's early success with Dorsett's lack of success straight up.  Its a team game.  And Reggie Wayne was a huge threat to gain a bunch of receptions which allowed TY to thrive on the deep stuff his rookie year.  Dorsett has been brought on to a team that is void of a receiver that is even remotely considered an underneath threat to the degree Wayne was.

 

The coaches are not having a hard time figuring out what to do with him.  Its a matter of what they are doing with him being wrong.  Its something that goes back to the offense's concepts of long developing routes that don't complement each other.  This is especially problematic when you have two WRs, in TY and Dorsett, who sort of cannibalize each others opportunities because of their similar skill sets. Having said that, Dorsett is a bit better suited to catch and run than TY, but is not used that way.

 

WR3?  He's WR3 because WR 1 just led the league in yards.  Not sure where Moncrief is because he hasn't played consistently, which is the same questionable circumstance that existed when Dorsett was drafted.

 

Chester Rogers outplayed him?  You can make that argument.  But I can make the argument that Rogers nearly outplayed Moncrief and was not that far behind TY in terms of displaying talent when given the opportunity.  Rogers performance relative to TY and Moncrief speaks more about Rogers abilities than detracts from Dorsettt's.

 

The issue is that the Colts have three good WRs behind TY.  TY will get his catches because of contract and Luck's confidence.  The other three are going to have fewer stats than they would have if the WR talent pool was less.  That's just reality.

[Defjamz26]

3 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Just wrong in so many ways.  You can't compare TY's early success with Dorsett's lack of success straight up.  Its a team game.  And Reggie Wayne was a huge threat to gain a bunch of receptions which allowed TY to thrive on the deep stuff his rookie year.  Dorsett has been brought on to a team that is void of a receiver that is even remotely considered an underneath threat to the degree Wayne was.

 

The coaches are not having a hard time figuring out what to do with him.  Its a matter of what they are doing with him being wrong.  Its something that goes back to the offense's concepts of long developing routes that don't complement each other.  This is especially problematic when you have two WRs, in TY and Dorsett, who sort of cannibalize each others opportunities because of their similar skill sets. Having said that, Dorsett is a bit better suited to catch and run than TY, but is not used that way.

 

WR3?  He's WR3 because WR 1 just led the league in yards.  Not sure where Moncrief is because he hasn't played consistently, which is the same questionable circumstance that existed when Dorsett was drafted.

 

Chester Rogers outplayed him?  You can make that argument.  But I can make the argument that Rogers nearly outplayed Moncrief and was not that far behind TY in terms of displaying talent when given the opportunity.  Rogers performance relative to TY and Moncrief speaks more about Rogers abilities than detracts from Dorsettt's.

 

The issue is that the Colts have three good WRs behind TY.  TY will get his catches because of contract and Luck's confidence.  The other three are going to have fewer stats than they would have if the WR talent pool was less.  That's just reality.

Hilton is an underneath threat. They use him outside more but we know on third down he'll run the underneath route and probably make the conversion. But no players are standing in Dorsett's way. Moncrief was out a couple of games, he had opportunities. Did nothing with them.

 

And they're not using him wrong. You guys are over complicating things. They should be able to line him up in the X or Y spot and he should be able to make plays. It's that simple. If he can't perform basic WR tasks then he's a bust. You shouldn't have to get that creative with a guy like that. If so you end up with a Tavon Austin. But the difference between Austin and Dorsett is that Austin makes plays at least. 

[Flash7]

1 hour ago, DougDew said:

If you read the descriptions of each WR, Dorsett easily sounds like the best of the crop. 

My point: Receiver was a need, not the biggest need. There were 3 receivers that were constantly compared to one another. We could have gotten one of the others much later in the draft and used our first round pick for a more pressing need. I like Dorset, always have, but not for a first. And it turns out, the other players were better, hence an even better value.

[DougDew]

2 hours ago, Defjamz26 said:

Hilton is an underneath threat. They use him outside more but we know on third down he'll run the underneath route and probably make the conversion. But no players are standing in Dorsett's way. Moncrief was out a couple of games, he had opportunities. Did nothing with them.

 

And they're not using him wrong. You guys are over complicating things. They should be able to line him up in the X or Y spot and he should be able to make plays. It's that simple. If he can't perform basic WR tasks then he's a bust. You shouldn't have to get that creative with a guy like that. If so you end up with a Tavon Austin. But the difference between Austin and Dorsett is that Austin makes plays at least. 

Underneath or not, TY's early career benefited greatly by having a near H-O-F WR playing on the other side.

 

I'm not disagreeing with you in looking into the x's and o's and realize he could be making plays anyway, but there have also been many examples of him being open and Luck not looking his way.  

 

He's not put up the numbers so far, and that is a disappointment that needs to be corrected, but to claim he is a bust without going a little deeper into the comparisons is a little extreme, IMO.

[DougDew]

1 hour ago, Flash7 said:

My point: Receiver was a need, not the biggest need. There were 3 receivers that were constantly compared to one another. We could have gotten one of the others much later in the draft and used our first round pick for a more pressing need. I like Dorset, always have, but not for a first. And it turns out, the other players were better, hence an even better value.

But the draft doesn't play out like that.  Only hindsight does.  Teams can't use a pick on one player now knowing that another player will be available when you want him to be available.  I believe Lockett was gone by our 2nd round pick, so we would have had to draft him in the first instead of those other positions of need.  If he wasn't there was a good chance he was going to be gone by then.

 

The other guy, well, he was drafted so late that pretty much every GM whiffed on him, multiple times.

 

Sure, if you think a 1000 yard receiver will be sitting there when you pick in round 4, yes, go ahead and pick any other position for the first 3 rounds.  But if any other GM out of the other 31 also thinks he is a 1000 yard receiver, you'll probably have to pick him in the first round anyway.

 

My problem is comparing Dorsett to the other players as a basis for saying it was a bad decision.  

 

if you want to say that we could have gotten the same level of production from a 4th round WR that we have gotten out of Dorsett, that's obvious.  But you only know that because of hindsight.  You have know way of knowing that when you have to make a decision about who to pick.

[Defjamz26]

1 hour ago, DougDew said:

But the draft doesn't play out like that.  Only hindsight does.  Teams can't use a pick on one player now knowing that another player will be available when you want him to be available.  I believe Lockett was gone by our 2nd round pick, so we would have had to draft him in the first instead of those other positions of need.  If he wasn't there was a good chance he was going to be gone by then.

 

The other guy, well, he was drafted so late that pretty much every GM whiffed on him, multiple times.

 

Sure, if you think a 1000 yard receiver will be sitting there when you pick in round 4, yes, go ahead and pick any other position for the first 3 rounds.  But if any other GM out of the other 31 also thinks he is a 1000 yard receiver, you'll probably have to pick him in the first round anyway.

 

My problem is comparing Dorsett to the other players as a basis for saying it was a bad decision.  

 

if you want to say that we could have gotten the same level of production from a 4th round WR that we have gotten out of Dorsett, that's obvious.  But you only know that because of hindsight.  You have know way of knowing that when you have to make a decision about who to pick.

The problem is Dorsett wasn't even a 1,000 yard receiver in college....just further proof as to why he had no place in the first round.

[jvan1973]

8 minutes ago, Defjamz26 said:

The problem is Dorsett wasn't even a 1,000 yard receiver in college....just further proof as to why he had no place in the first round.

Plenty of great college wrs who were drafted in the first round didn't have thousand yard seasons.  

[Defjamz26]

1 minute ago, jvan1973 said:

Plenty of great college wrs who were drafted in the first round didn't have thousand yard seasons.  

But most do

[Buddy Lee]

7 minutes ago, Defjamz26 said:

The problem is Dorsett wasn't even a 1,000 yard receiver in college....just further proof as to why he had no place in the first round.

Prior to the draft there were some scouts who were concerned about Dorsett's lack of production at Miami. Great yards per catch but many fewer catches than would be expected. Sound familiar?

 

[throwing BBZ]

On 1/11/2017 at 4:01 PM, AustinnKaine said:

Is he really a bust? I am having a hard time believing it. I am not arguing against it, I am just not so sure if I am sold on that yet. From what I have seen he has not been used as a true option in lucks progressions. I have seen a lot of straight GO routes, and clear out routes for other receivers. The most evident of this is in the Jets game where he almost exclusively runs routes to open the field for other receivers.

 

I know everyone expects him to put up crazy numbers because of his speed and draft position, and I know many were upset because of the other players available at that draft position. But if we put all that aside, is he truly a bust? 

 

I'm not quite sold on that yet.

 

 I think Chester Rogers has just as good an upside. So...

[Surge89]

Here is my issue with Dorsett.  He wasn't a well thought out draft pick and second he's underperforming.

 

First let's start with his draft position. I think he has talent, but not sure if it's first round talent.  Even if it was he didn't have production which certainly wasn't first round production.  And his knowledge of his position was low coming out of college (evidence is in the routes he runs at the pro level, loose and predictable) also something I wouldn't deem first round worthy. IMO Grigson has a majority of blame when it comes to Dorsett but not all...

 

Second let's look at his NFL production.  His production is low but he has had injury.  Also he is being asked right now to fill a role in this offense that really isn't needed.  But the biggest factor here is Luck.  Luck has always had a nagging habit of focusing down his #1 receiver to a fault.  Reggie when he was here often would be a direct cause for Lucks sacks because instead of going through progression he would wait for Reggie to come open.  Exact same thing is happening with TY (but at less rate since Luck is getting better in this area).  But with all of that said I still don't see Dorsett taking advantage of snaps when he does get them.  He produces but not at what I would consider first round production.  He still has time on his rookie contract so I'd say let him have the chance before deeming him a bust but it's a long steep hill he will need to climb.

[Luck2Hilton4TD]

It's still too early to call him a bust, but next season is pretty much a make or break year. 

[BProland85]

I think he will be a bust for Indy in the sense that his stats will never show that for what a 1st round WRs' stats should be. He is competing for catches with both Hilton and Moncrief both of which are more dependable and also still young. 

[NewColtsFan]

10 hours ago, Defjamz26 said:

The problem is Dorsett wasn't even a 1,000 yard receiver in college....just further proof as to why he had no place in the first round.

 

Couple of thoughts....

 

First, it was reported that teams were ready to take Dorsett if we didn't.

 

And second,  by that late in the 1st round,  many teams are taking a player with a 2nd round grades.

 

There aren't 32 players with first round grades for any draft.      Teams drafting that late,  are mostly not getting first round guys.

 

That said,  it was reported that Dorsett had a grade that had him in the teens on the Colts board.   So, he was ranked 13-19.     And no one else was said to be close.

 

Now, maybe Grigson and his staff don't know how to grade properly.     But as he noted then,  if you believe in your staff and your grades,  then what's the point of not taking a player who is clearly ranked much higher than anyone else left on the board?

 

Grigson has said if there are multiple players with roughly the same grade,  then he's taking the player at a position of need.   

 

These are the right things to say and do.     Whether Dorsett ever works out we will find out in the next year or two.

 

[NewColtsFan]

14 hours ago, Defjamz26 said:

Dorsett is a bust

 

The minute you have to defend a guy by bringing up a past example of an exception to the rule like saying look at Wayne his first couple of seasons, is the minute you know you probably have a bust because you're already making excuses.

 

And that's where my case will start; excuses. The most common one is "Well they don't know how to use him". I find this idea absurd. You're telling me that a whole bunch of seasoned NFL coaches don't know how to use a talented player? We applauded them for how they used Turbin, but Dorsett is a head scratcher ? That's hard to swallow. Coaches will find a way to use talented players. That's what they did with Hilton. He did PR for awhile and was a 3rd WR. They used to run him out the backfield too and throw him screens. Then he broke out and became a number 1. 

 

I just have a hard time believing veteran coaches are scratching their head on what to do with Dorsett. It's different if this was Christian McCaffery who we know can make plays, but we're talking about a guy who wasn't even good in college. Didn't even have a 1,000 yard season at Miami. 

 

And that brings me to my second point: his attributes. Dorsett is fast and nothing else. People knock TY all the time because he's not 6'3" but neither is Dorsett. Dorsett is small and fast which there are plenty of every year in the draft. Fast 5'11" receivers who run in the 4.2's-4.3's are in just about every draft class. Dorsett has no notable attributes outside of that. Remember that this was a guy who couldn't even handle PR and KR. 2 seasons is not too soon to judge him either. The biggest jump a player makes is from year 1 to 2.

 

And let's not forget his position on the team. He's basically a WR3. If you draft a guy in the first round and he's just a WR3 then that's a bust. Chester Rodgers was an UDFA and outplayed him. Reggie Wayne struggled too but how long are we going to keep pointing towards past examples of rare exceptions to the rule with Grigson picks? We did the same thing with Werner when we knew he was a bad pick from day 1. People tried to use Marshawn Lynch when he was with Buffalo to defend Richardson. History is repeating itself with Dorsett.

 

 

If you think Dorsett is a bust then you're simply saying you don't understand the draft and how it operates.

 

You can say he's not performed like a 1st round pick,  but that doesn't equal being a bust.     Dorsett has given decent production in his limited time.      But he's not a bust,  and he's not close to a bust.     Not yet, at least.

 

[NewColtsFan]

14 hours ago, DougDew said:

If you read the descriptions of each WR, Dorsett easily sounds like the best of the crop. 

 

 

I think it's important to breakdown Dorsett's career numbers.

 

Year over year,  in Y2,  Dorsett caught roughly twice as many passes,   and his average per catch jumped from 12.5 per,  to 16.      That's a big jump.

 

His trend lines are heading in the right direction.     Given his injury, it's not uncommon that he's behind schedule.

 

Let's see what happens in Y3.     There's no need for the jury to hand in a verdict on Dorsett just yet.

 

[Luck2Hilton4TD]

Reggie Wayne really didn't take off until the 3rd year of his career. I'm not saying Dorsett is a future Hall of Famer like #87 (should be), but at the same time, it normally takes wide receivers a few years. 

[southwest1]

When we drafted Philip, I didn't like the pick primarily because the guy was only 5 ft. 10 inches tall. Generally, I like WR's 6 ft tall or higher because they are easier to spot by the QB if they are forced to flee the pocket, have a better catch radius on balls not perfectly thrown; & they can use bigger frames to create separation from DBs in crunch time. 

 

Yeah I know; Wes Welker & Julian Edelman are perfect examples of smaller WRs in the slot who can convert 3rd downs routinely & just because a dude is tall & lengthy doesn't mean they are athletically gifted in say 2 minute drills in the 4th quarter. I've been disappointed in Dorsett & I was perplexed when we took him where we did. 

 

Having said all that, I'm not ready to discard him completely, but the kid has to show me that he can score a touchdown on more than a blown coverage though. Unless he's wide open or the DB falls down, Phillip doesn't usually move the chains to me. 

 

In Dorsett's defense, 1 of my favorite WRs of all time, Steve Smith Sr. just retired in Baltimore this offseason & he's listed at 5 ft 9 in. tall so it is possible to play with great intensity, swag, & fierceness regardless of size. Steve was a beast in Carolina  

 

Touche "size matters not" as we all learned from Yoda in Star Wars Empire Strikes Back. I just wish Philip showed me flashes of Steve Smith once in awhile. 

[Flash7]

11 hours ago, DougDew said:

But the draft doesn't play out like that.  Only hindsight does.  Teams can't use a pick on one player now knowing that another player will be available when you want him to be available.  I believe Lockett was gone by our 2nd round pick, so we would have had to draft him in the first instead of those other positions of need.  If he wasn't there was a good chance he was going to be gone by then.

 

The other guy, well, he was drafted so late that pretty much every GM whiffed on him, multiple times.

 

Sure, if you think a 1000 yard receiver will be sitting there when you pick in round 4, yes, go ahead and pick any other position for the first 3 rounds.  But if any other GM out of the other 31 also thinks he is a 1000 yard receiver, you'll probably have to pick him in the first round anyway.

 

My problem is comparing Dorsett to the other players as a basis for saying it was a bad decision.  

 

if you want to say that we could have gotten the same level of production from a 4th round WR that we have gotten out of Dorsett, that's obvious.  But you only know that because of hindsight.  You have know way of knowing that when you have to make a decision about who to pick.

Doug, (if I may), you keep saying that me comparing Dorsett to Lockett, who was drafted in the 3rd round, and to Crowder, who was drafted in the 4th round is due to hind sight. The whole point of my original post was to show that before the draft, these three receivers were compared to one another. Not after the draft, before the draft...and by many analysts. I just provided one example out of many. Also, please not that I am not comparing Dorsett to other receivers, just the three coming out that year with similar skill sets. The problem I have is that we gave up a first round draft pick for the least productive of the three, who are also WR3s for their respective teams.

 

To your point that the draft doesn't play out like that: I agree that it's not an exact science, but the players are given draft grades by respective teams. They usually know when certain players will be drafted.

 

I do not mean to put words in your mouth, so I'll ask instead: Do you think Phillip Dorsett was picked in the draft by the right team and at the right spot, given the Colt's needs and all of the information on this particular group of receivers? 

[AZColt11]

19 hours ago, Defjamz26 said:

Dorsett is a bust

 

The minute you have to defend a guy by bringing up a past example of an exception to the rule like saying look at Wayne his first couple of seasons, is the minute you know you probably have a bust because you're already making excuses.

I am one who does the comparisons, but I have always felt like there are differences between excuses, reasons, and possibilities.  I don't claim to know if Dorsett will ever work out.  He may very well not.  But I am willing to give it more time than others to find out.  I just don't think there has been enough games from him yet to determine it.  That's all I'm sayin.

[lollygagger8]

Definitely threw me for a loop when Grigs picked Dorsett when I thought for sure Landon Collins name would be called. 

 

 

This year, can the Colts have anyone but Griggles pick the first round draft choice? He sometimes does ok in the later rounds, but his first rounds choices have been mind boggling to say the least. (Luck was Irsay's choice) 

[Andrew Luck fan club]

In spite of the necessary influx of talent that is needed throughout this offseason, there are a significant handful of rostered players in need of a breakout season in 2017 for the Indianapolis Colts. They need to be workout warriors, not weekend warriors, in their downtime this offseason in order to prove their worth in the midst of such a pivotal time for the organization.

 

As we move toward such a crazy time for the Colts – with what’s become an offseason circus of late – it’s quite apparent that Ryan Kelly looks as though he is the lone first-round pick, aside from Andrew Luck, of the Ryan Grigson/Chuck Pagano era to be working out at this point. Bjoern Werner was a colossal bust, the trade for Trent Richardson never even approached materializing and Phillip Dorsett has yet to command respect for where he was selected in the 2015 draft.

This is a problem for him moving into his third season.

 

In a year when the Colts needed offensive line help, had some necessities on defense and could have used one of the top running backs as well, Grigson chose to go with a vanity pick at receiver in the first-round, despite not having a second-round selection. This isn’t Dorsett’s fault. He was chosen well above his status in most people’s mind, and he doesn’t appear to be moving toward living that down.

Grigson has made no bones about his affinity for drafting with the ‘best player available’ mentality. So, how exactly did he come up with Dorsett holding that torch at the end of the first-round? I know this game of hindsight has its flaws, but there was a ton of known, highly sought after talent left on the board when Dorsett was selected.

 

Malcom Brown, Landon Collins, Preston Smith, Eric Kendricks and so many others at various positions of need that it’ll give you a headache looking back on it. Maybe the most aggravating part of all of this is that he was projected as the sixth receiver within the class. He was drafted exactly there as well. Maybe Grigson was somehow worried that with the run on receivers throughout the first-round would leave him without one? Well, the results through the first two seasons of the class suggests that there were several who would have done just fine.

 

Just look at this list:

RND: 1st | Phillip Dorsett: 98 targets/51 catches (52 percent) – 753 yards – 3 TD’s (14.76 YPC)

RND: 2nd | Dorial Green-Beckham: 140 targets/68 catches (48.6 percent) – 941 yards – 6 TD’s (13.83 YPC)

RND: 2nd | Devin Funchess: 121 targets/54 catches (44.6 percent) – 844 yards – 9 TD’s (15.63 YPC)

RND: 3rd | Tyler Lockett: 135 targets/92 catches (68 percent) – 1261 yards – 7 TD’s (13.71 YPC)

RND: 3rd | Chris Conley: 100 targets/61 catches (61 percent) – 729 yards – 1 TD (11.95 YPC)

RND: 4th | Jamison Crowder: 177 targets/126 catches (71 percent) – 1451 yards – 9 TD’s (11.51 YPC)

RND: 5th | Stefon Diggs: 195 targets/136 catches (69 percent) – 1623 yards – 7 TD’s (11.93 YPC)

RND: 5th | JJ Nelson: 101 targets/45 catches (44.5 percent) – 867 yards – 8 TD’s (19.27 YPC)

 

Amongst this group, Dorsett is fifth in catch percentage, has the second-fewest catches, the second fewest yards and the second fewest touchdowns. But wait – get out your pom-poms – he does have the second-best yards per catch rate. Thank you for holding your applause until the end. You can’t even say ‘he’s not living up to his first-round selection’, mainly because there is proof here that he isn’t even living up to a fifth-round selection.

As he heads into the 2017 season, pending some sort of an unforeseen trade, Dorsett will be on the roster as it does the Colts very little financially to release him. He’s only costing roughly $2.2M against the salary cap. However, if he doesn’t begin to show that he can become a reliable and productive target within this offense, he’ll be very expendable for the 2018 season.

[Colts1324]

On 1/11/2017 at 5:26 PM, jshipp23 said:

Those guys get many more opportunities. ..Luck locks in on TY or checks down to rb or te most of the time...His biggest flaw is he doesn't go thru his progressions...Hopefully it clicks for him this year..Vikings took Laquan Treadwell in 1st this yr he had like 12 receptions. .It sometimes takes receivers a few years to develop. ..Reggie Wayne wasn't anything special his first few seasons either...

I agree to that to a point. Many of the routes are meant specifically to hit Hilton. Luck hit multiple receivers during the course of a game more than most QB's in the league. When dorsett and Allen did get passes thrown their way, they dropped about 35% it seemed like. Luck can get better at it yes, but when your offensive coordinator calls up plays for everyone to run deep, and Hilton is the only one that comes back to the ball, then most people would probably tend to do the same thing. There are a few plays I recall that he absolutely should have seen the open guy. But I think he has gotten a lot better since using Reggie as a security blanket his first two years! 

[jshipp23]

41 minutes ago, Majin Vegeta said:

In spite of the necessary influx of talent that is needed throughout this offseason, there are a significant handful of rostered players in need of a breakout season in 2017 for the Indianapolis Colts. They need to be workout warriors, not weekend warriors, in their downtime this offseason in order to prove their worth in the midst of such a pivotal time for the organization.

 

As we move toward such a crazy time for the Colts – with what’s become an offseason circus of late – it’s quite apparent that Ryan Kelly looks as though he is the lone first-round pick, aside from Andrew Luck, of the Ryan Grigson/Chuck Pagano era to be working out at this point. Bjoern Werner was a colossal bust, the trade for Trent Richardson never even approached materializing and Phillip Dorsett has yet to command respect for where he was selected in the 2015 draft.

This is a problem for him moving into his third season.

 

In a year when the Colts needed offensive line help, had some necessities on defense and could have used one of the top running backs as well, Grigson chose to go with a vanity pick at receiver in the first-round, despite not having a second-round selection. This isn’t Dorsett’s fault. He was chosen well above his status in most people’s mind, and he doesn’t appear to be moving toward living that down.

Grigson has made no bones about his affinity for drafting with the ‘best player available’ mentality. So, how exactly did he come up with Dorsett holding that torch at the end of the first-round? I know this game of hindsight has its flaws, but there was a ton of known, highly sought after talent left on the board when Dorsett was selected.

 

Malcom Brown, Landon Collins, Preston Smith, Eric Kendricks and so many others at various positions of need that it’ll give you a headache looking back on it. Maybe the most aggravating part of all of this is that he was projected as the sixth receiver within the class. He was drafted exactly there as well. Maybe Grigson was somehow worried that with the run on receivers throughout the first-round would leave him without one? Well, the results through the first two seasons of the class suggests that there were several who would have done just fine.

 

Just look at this list:

RND: 1st | Phillip Dorsett: 98 targets/51 catches (52 percent) – 753 yards – 3 TD’s (14.76 YPC)

RND: 2nd | Dorial Green-Beckham: 140 targets/68 catches (48.6 percent) – 941 yards – 6 TD’s (13.83 YPC)

RND: 2nd | Devin Funchess: 121 targets/54 catches (44.6 percent) – 844 yards – 9 TD’s (15.63 YPC)

RND: 3rd | Tyler Lockett: 135 targets/92 catches (68 percent) – 1261 yards – 7 TD’s (13.71 YPC)

RND: 3rd | Chris Conley: 100 targets/61 catches (61 percent) – 729 yards – 1 TD (11.95 YPC)

RND: 4th | Jamison Crowder: 177 targets/126 catches (71 percent) – 1451 yards – 9 TD’s (11.51 YPC)

RND: 5th | Stefon Diggs: 195 targets/136 catches (69 percent) – 1623 yards – 7 TD’s (11.93 YPC)

RND: 5th | JJ Nelson: 101 targets/45 catches (44.5 percent) – 867 yards – 8 TD’s (19.27 YPC)

 

Amongst this group, Dorsett is fifth in catch percentage, has the second-fewest catches, the second fewest yards and the second fewest touchdowns. But wait – get out your pom-poms – he does have the second-best yards per catch rate. Thank you for holding your applause until the end. You can’t even say ‘he’s not living up to his first-round selection’, mainly because there is proof here that he isn’t even living up to a fifth-round selection.

As he heads into the 2017 season, pending some sort of an unforeseen trade, Dorsett will be on the roster as it does the Colts very little financially to release him. He’s only costing roughly $2.2M against the salary cap. However, if he doesn’t begin to show that he can become a reliable and productive target within this offense, he’ll be very expendable for the 2018 season.

He also had the fewest targets...Hard to get catches without targets..

[The Fish]

http://www.fanragsports.com/nfl/colts/colts-phillip-dorsett-is-running-out-of-chances-to-impress-in-indianapolis/

 

 

This writer is making the case that our GM has no vision for how to construct a roster and managed to get a guy in the 1st round who's being roundly out played by guys who were drafted as late as the 5th in the case of Dorsett.

I tend to agree, but I don't think Dorsett is a bust (his game is okay-ish, he's just not needed here, unless someone gets hurt), it was just a bad pick.

 

I know this isn't the Grigson can go any day now thread, but the truth is if he sticks around he's just going to be chasing his mistakes with the same football acumen that set the chain of events off in the first place. Picture a dog chasing it's tail- forever..

[Andrew Luck fan club]

10 minutes ago, jshipp23 said:

He also had the fewest targets...Hard to get catches without targets..

Another reason he shouldn't have been picked 1st round by the Colts. Wasnt needed and not used. 

[jshipp23]

4 minutes ago, Majin Vegeta said:

Another reason he shouldn't have been picked 1st round by the Colts. Wasnt needed and not used. 

Like I said before he qas taken because it wasn't guaranteed Hilton would be back..If someone offered him too much we were gonna let him walk...Luckily they didn't. .

[jshipp23]

He is basically a decoy in our offense, so the argument could also be made that he takes the top off the defense which allows Hilton, Moncreif, and the tight ends to get open underneath..So even though he may not show up in stats he has an effect..Id rather have coaches that scheme him into the offense, but it is what it is...

[Andrew Luck fan club]

13 minutes ago, jshipp23 said:

Like I said before he qas taken because it wasn't guaranteed Hilton would be back..If someone offered him too much we were gonna let him walk...Luckily they didn't. .

Hilton was coming back, it was never reported he ever wouldn't. This was talked about a couple days ago.

[Defjamz26]

23 hours ago, Majin Vegeta said:

Hilton was coming back, it was never reported he ever wouldn't. This was talked about a couple days ago.

This is just one of the excuses people use to defend bad Grigson picks.