Dorsett

[AKB]

Is he really a bust? I am having a hard time believing it. I am not arguing against it, I am just not so sure if I am sold on that yet. From what I have seen he has not been used as a true option in lucks progressions. I have seen a lot of straight GO routes, and clear out routes for other receivers. The most evident of this is in the Jets game where he almost exclusively runs routes to open the field for other receivers.

 

I know everyone expects him to put up crazy numbers because of his speed and draft position, and I know many were upset because of the other players available at that draft position. But if we put all that aside, is he truly a bust? 

 

I'm not quite sold on that yet.

[jshipp23]

8 minutes ago, AustinnKaine said:

Is he really a bust? I am having a hard time believing it. I am not arguing against it, I am just not so sure if I am sold on that yet. From what I have seen he has not been used as a true option in lucks progressions. I have seen a lot of straight GO routes, and clear out routes for other receivers. The most evident of this is in the Jets game where he almost exclusively runs routes to open the field for other receivers.

 

I know everyone expects him to put up crazy numbers because of his speed and draft position, and I know many were upset because of the other players available at that draft position. But if we put all that aside, is he truly a bust? 

 

I'm not quite sold on that yet.

He is definitely not a bust...He will pay off for us...He was hurt big parts of rookie year, and hasn't had many opportunities. ..He just needs some more oportunities and to regain his confidence...This coaching staff is terrible at scheming to players strengths so it's hard to gauge any player's  talent level..

[NannyMcafee]

Until we can get the coaches to teach our guy, how to go through his progressions, until we can have a decent pass oline, I don't anticipate seeing Dorsett be a big numbers wr.

[Flash7]

I think Dorsett is a good receiver that was drafted well before he should have been. The Colts, especially should not have drafted him in the first round, IMO, with so many other pressing needs.

 

Dorsett's stats so far:

Drafted 1st Rd.  51 receptions   753 yards,  14.8 Avg.   3 TDs.

 

Other similar receivers in the same draft that I thought the Colts should have targeted:

Tyler Locket

Drafter 3rd Rd.   92 receptions   1,261 yards,  13.7 Avg. 7 TDs

 

Jamison Crowder

Drafted 4th rd.   126 Receptions   1,451 yds   11.5 Avg.  9 TDs

 

Dorsett is not a bust, but he definitely is not worth the first round draft pick that we gave up to get him. Sure, you could say that hind sight is 20/20, however, many of the analysts were comparing these 3 receivers to one another because of similarities in size and plying style. 

 

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000468283/article/jamison-crowder-among-top-undersized-wrs-in-2015-nfl-draft

[Andrew Luck fan club]

Too early to call him a bust, but he was a terrible pick. 

[MPStack]

I wouldn`t call him a bust, but a bad pick for the Colts considering they could have had Landon Collins or Eric Kendricks.

[jshipp23]

Those guys get many more opportunities. ..Luck locks in on TY or checks down to rb or te most of the time...His biggest flaw is he doesn't go thru his progressions...Hopefully it clicks for him this year..Vikings took Laquan Treadwell in 1st this yr he had like 12 receptions. .It sometimes takes receivers a few years to develop. ..Reggie Wayne wasn't anything special his first few seasons either...

[Flash7]

2 minutes ago, jshipp23 said:

Those guys get many more opportunities. ..Luck locks in on TY or checks down to rb or te most of the time...His biggest flaw is he doesn't go thru his progressions...Hopefully it clicks for him this year..Vikings took Laquan Treadwell in 1st this yr he had like 12 receptions. .It sometimes takes receivers a few years to develop. ..Reggie Wayne wasn't anything special his first few seasons either...

Those guys are simply better players. If they were on the Colts, they would contribute more in the passing game than Dorsett and would be an asset in the return game as well. I still like Dorsett and agree that we could use him better, but he is not better than the other two (Lockett and Crowder).

[jshipp23]

We took Dorsett BECAUSE Hilton was a free agent and there was no guarantee we were going to resign him..Why can't people understand that? Now we just got to be more creative to get him the ball since he naturally is an outside receiver like Hilton...It's not a bad problem to have...He shows up and flashes from time to time in the few opportunities he gets that shows he is a special talent..

[Flash7]

4 minutes ago, jshipp23 said:

We took Dorsett BECAUSE Hilton was a free agent and there was no guarantee we were going to resign him..Why can't people understand that? Now we just got to be more creative to get him the ball since he naturally is an outside receiver like Hilton...It's not a bad problem to have...He shows up and flashes from time to time in the few opportunities he gets that shows he is a special talent..

It still doesn't excuse the pick. There were better receivers that could have been drafted later, much later, who have outperformed Dorsett. That's the gripe I have here. I get that receiver was a need.

[21isSuperman]

He's not a bust yet, but unless things change drastically, he'll be there soon

[jshipp23]

2 minutes ago, Flash7 said:

It still doesn't excuse the pick. There were better receivers that could have been drafted later, much later, who have out performed Dorsett. That's the gripe I have here. I get that receiver was a need.

You could be right, but those guys do not have physical skills Dorsett has and they have had many more opportunities. ..Its not fair to compare Dorsett to them because they have a lot more targets. ..

[Steamboat_Shaun]

3 minutes ago, Flash7 said:

It still doesn't excuse the pick. There were better receivers that could have been drafted later, much later, who have outperformed Dorsett. That's the gripe I have here. I get that receiver was a need.

 

Dorsett's a WR3 in this offense, most of the other "better" WRs you're referring to were likely drafted to be #1 guys in their respective offenses. Playcalling isn't really helping him, and he's open enough to make a legit claim that Luck either doesn't see him or doesn't trust him. Either way, calling him a bust is jumping the gun.

[VocableLoki]

10 minutes ago, jshipp23 said:

Those guys get many more opportunities. ..Luck locks in on TY or checks down to rb or te most of the time...His biggest flaw is he doesn't go thru his progressions...Hopefully it clicks for him this year..Vikings took Laquan Treadwell in 1st this yr he had like 12 receptions. .It sometimes takes receivers a few years to develop. ..Reggie Wayne wasn't anything special his first few seasons either...

 

Reggie's first 3 years:

 

2003	Indianapolis Colts	16	68	838	12.3	52.4	57T	7	8	1	49	0
2002	Indianapolis Colts	16	49	716	14.6	44.8	49	4	11	4	35	2
2001	Indianapolis Colts	13	27	345	12.8	26.5	43	0	6	1	19	0

 

 

Dorsett:

 

2016	Indianapolis Colts	15	7	33	528	16.0	64T	2	2	10	5.0	7	0	1	0
2015	Indianapolis Colts	11	0	18	225	12.5	35T	1	3	17	5.7	11	0	2	1

Reggie didn't have 1,000 yards yet but still flashed more as a 2nd/3rd receiver early than Dorsett has

[jshipp23]

1 minute ago, VocableLoki said:

Reggie's first 3 years:

 

2003	Indianapolis Colts	16	68	838	12.3	52.4	57T	7	8	1	49	0
2002	Indianapolis Colts	16	49	716	14.6	44.8	49	4	11	4	35	2
2001	Indianapolis Colts	13	27	345	12.8	26.5	43	0	6	1	19	0

 

 

Dorsett:

 

2016	Indianapolis Colts	15	7	33	528	16.0	64T	2	2	10	5.0	7	0	1	0
2015	Indianapolis Colts	11	0	18	225	12.5	35T	1	3	17	5.7	11	0	2	1

 

Reggie didn't have 1,000 yards yet but still flashed more as a 2nd/3rd receiver early than Dorsett has

Dorsett was hurt majority of his rookie yr including training camp..I guarantee Wayne had way more targets and Wayne was on the field a lot more...

[Flash7]

1 minute ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

 

Dorsett's a WR3 in this offense, most of the other "better" WRs you're referring to were likely drafted to be #1 guys in their respective offenses. Playcalling isn't really helping him, and he's open enough to make a legit claim that Luck either doesn't see him or doesn't trust him. Either way, calling him a bust is jumping the gun.

Respectfully, Please go back and see if I called him a bust. I have stated that I do not think he is a bust, just that he was not worth our first round pick, especially in light of how he has performed compared to the other two receivers that he was grouped together with.

 

Locket is a WR3 behind Kearse and Baldwin. Crowder is WR3 behind Garcon and Jackson.

[Andrew Luck fan club]

11 minutes ago, Flash7 said:

It still doesn't excuse the pick. There were better receivers that could have been drafted later, much later, who have outperformed Dorsett. That's the gripe I have here. I get that receiver was a need.

There were definitely more pressing needs. (defense)

[jshipp23]

1 minute ago, 12to13 said:

There were definitely more pressing needs. (defense)

Yes if we knew for sure Hilton would resign , but we obviously didn't. ..What happens if he signs somewhere else? We go into season with Moncrief who is always hurt and whalen and a late round receiver?  We were a passing team with weak defense and had a chance at losing our top receiver? I don't really criticize Grigson for that pick considering the circumstances...Dorsett is gonna be good, he had a pretty solid game against Jax to end the year so its a good sign for next year. .. 

[Andrew Luck fan club]

5 minutes ago, jshipp23 said:

Yes if we knew for sure Hilton would resign , but we obviously didn't. ..What happens if he signs somewhere else? We go into season with Moncrief who is always hurt and whalen and a late round receiver?  We were a passing team with weak defense and had a chance at losing our top receiver? I don't really criticize Grigson for that pick considering the circumstances...Dorsett is gonna be good, he had a pretty solid game against Jax to end the year so its a good sign for next year. .. 

I never saw any report about hilton ever not coming back to indy, almost common sense he was going to resign. The only speculation about him EVER leaving was when they drafted Phillip! Plus we could have franchise tagged him? It was a terrible pick, and while that's my opinion, it's almost universally shared. 

[twfish]

1 minute ago, 12to13 said:

I never saw any report about hilton ever not coming back to indy, almost common sense he was going to resign. The only speculation about him EVER leaving was when they drafted Phillip! Plus we could have franchise tagged him? It was a terrible pick, and while that's my opinion, it's almost universally shared. 

You don't have a very good memory. There was alot of talk of him possibly signing somewhere else if we didn't offer enough money before we drafted Dorsett was drafted. Matter of a fact the talks kinda ended as soon as Dorsett was picked. P.s I was * at bdubs the night he was picked, but @jshipp23 isn't wrong.

[jshipp23]

6 minutes ago, 12to13 said:

I never saw any report about hilton ever not coming back to indy, almost common sense he was going to resign. The only speculation about him EVER leaving was when they drafted Phillip! Plus we could have franchise tagged him? It was a terrible pick, and while that's my opinion, it's almost universally shared. 

Many were worried someone would offer Hilton too much money and we wouldn't match..We never said we would franchise him..

[Bluefire4]

I consistently said I wanted Landon Collins and was shocked when Dorsett was drafted... that's all I'll say.

[Andrew Luck fan club]

10 minutes ago, twfish said:

You don't have a very good memory. There was alot of talk of him possibly signing somewhere else if we didn't offer enough money before we drafted Dorsett was drafted. Matter of a fact the talks kinda ended as soon as Dorsett was picked. P.s I was * at bdubs the night he was picked, but @jshipp23 isn't wrong.

Show me some threads. Not saying youre wrong.

 

10 minutes ago, jshipp23 said:

Many were worried someone would offer Hilton too much money and we wouldn't match..We never said we would franchise him..

I'm saying we could have franchise tagged him. If contract talks for some reason didn't work out.

[BOTT]

11 minutes ago, twfish said:

You don't have a very good memory. There was alot of talk of him possibly signing somewhere else if we didn't offer enough money before we drafted Dorsett was drafted. Matter of a fact the talks kinda ended as soon as Dorsett was picked. P.s I was * at bdubs the night he was picked, but @jshipp23 isn't wrong.

You just described every free agent.  You don't offer enough money they might leave.  I think the possibility of TY leaving was very slim.

[twfish]

The Miami game last year is how we should continue to use him. Quick underneath routes, screens, more of a gadget player for him to blossom and develop into a complete range receiver

[jshipp23]

Just now, twfish said:

The Miami game last year is how we should continue to use him. Quick underneath routes, screens, more of a gadget player for him to blossom and develop into a complete range receiver

Gruden comes in and makes us a more west coast offense Dorsett will shine just watch...

[JR Indy]

This topic about Dorsett is the main reason why the Colts need new coach. Not so much as to where he was drafted. But because they can not seem to develop him. Ty and Dorsett  (outside of hands) has the same skill set. The big difference I see from the two is one has confidence and the other one does not. Can you image if Peyton was in his prime with Dorsett, all Peyton would need is one summer with Dorsett and he would be a star. Can you image him in New England, he would instantly be the guy that would have a career day against the Colts. Even though Dorsett is from Miami, I don't think he(Chuck)was to happy about the draft pick  Dorsett and it shows to this day.

[RockThatBlue]

1 hour ago, jshipp23 said:

We took Dorsett BECAUSE Hilton was a free agent and there was no guarantee we were going to resign him..Why can't people understand that? Now we just got to be more creative to get him the ball since he naturally is an outside receiver like Hilton...It's not a bad problem to have...He shows up and flashes from time to time in the few opportunities he gets that shows he is a special talent..

Hilton had nothing to do with the pick. The Colts were always going to resign Hilton and everyone knew it. We didn't have much behind Hilton is why we drafted him. Still not a fan of it though.

[Andrew Luck fan club]

19 minutes ago, BOTT said:

You just described every free agent.  You don't offer enough money they might leave.  I think the possibility of TY leaving was very slim.

 

2 minutes ago, RockThatBlue said:

Hilton had nothing to do with the pick. The Colts were always going to resign Hilton and everyone knew it. We didn't have much behind Hilton is why we drafted him. Still not a fan of it though.

Danke

[RockThatBlue]

I don't really recall anyone thinking we wouldn't resign Hilton. Maybe there was some, but I don't really remember many thinking that off the top of my head. I thought it was pretty much known we were going to.

[jameszeigler834]

1 hour ago, jshipp23 said:

He is definitely not a bust...He will pay off for us...He was hurt big parts of rookie year, and hasn't had many opportunities. ..He just needs some more oportunities and to regain his confidence...This coaching staff is terrible at scheming to players strengths so it's hard to gauge any player's  talent level..

His numbers improved a bit this past season but next year he needs to be on his game if he is ever going to do anything.

[Douzer]

What's the definition of a bust?

 

Who wrote the definition?

 

In my head, the general definition is something like this; all 1st round players are expected to become starters on the team that drafted them, and any player who doesn't meet that expectation is a 'bust'.

If that is the standard, I think it's fair to say Dorsett is a starter, and that he'd probably have made the starting lineup on other teams too, so to me, 'bust' doesn't fit.

 

Personally, I believe that all 1st round players should be NFL ready, able to start day 1, impact players, like Andrew Luck and Ryan Kelly. My personal expectation of a 1st rounder is higher than what Dorsett has achieved, and to me, he didn't merit is overall draft position, but he's a starter, and not subject to the 'bust' label on my scale either.

[SaturdayAllDay]

36 minutes ago, JR Indy said:

This topic about Dorsett is the main reason why the Colts need new coach. Not so much as to where he was drafted. But because they can not seem to develop him. Ty and Dorsett  (outside of hands) has the same skill set. The big difference I see from the two is one has confidence and the other one does not. Can you image if Peyton was in his prime with Dorsett, all Peyton would need is one summer with Dorsett and he would be a star. Can you image him in New England, he would instantly be the guy that would have a career day against the Colts. Even though Dorsett is from Miami, I don't think he(Chuck)was to happy about the draft pick  Dorsett and it shows to this day.

THIS!! 

 

The big arguement I always see is that "we could have drafted Landon Collins, and he's one of the best young safeties out there now". Which is absolutely true, WITH the Giants coaching staff able to coach him up to that (he was the worst cover safety in the NFL in 2015). With our staff I don't think he would even half as good as he is. 

 

I don't think it's Dorsett's fault that our staff doesn't seem to be able to scheme him into the game at all, and the few times they do, luck just stares down Hilton anyways. 

[GwinnettColt]

I think the jury's stll out but I would add that he hasn't had time to develop.  He was injured most of last year, I think.

 

I wasn't crazy about the pick but I hope that he turns out to be worth it.  

[AKB]

I thought we would use him the way Kansas City has used Tyreke Hill.

 

I'm a little confused as to why we have not.

[Flash7]

1 hour ago, SaturdayAllDay said:

THIS!! 

 

The big arguement I always see is that "we could have drafted Landon Collins, and he's one of the best young safeties out there now". Which is absolutely true, WITH the Giants coaching staff able to coach him up to that (he was the worst cover safety in the NFL in 2015). With our staff I don't think he would even half as good as he is. 

 

I don't think it's Dorsett's fault that our staff doesn't seem to be able to scheme him into the game at all, and the few times they do, luck just stares down Hilton anyways. 

Well, then how did Hilton become so good with this staff? It's not like Hilton developed under another coaching staff.

 

At some point, you have to look at the player. We've seen players develope under this coaching staff. Let's not pretend that we're the Jaguars with numerous top 5 picks and still grossly underperform every year.

[SaturdayAllDay]

3 minutes ago, Flash7 said:

Well, then how did Hilton become so good with this staff? It's not like Hilton developed under another coaching staff.

 

At some point, you have to look at the player. We've seen players develope under this coaching staff. Let's not pretend that we're the Jaguars with numerous top 5 picks and still grossly underperform every year.

Well there was this little known WR named Reggie Wayne around to teach Hilton a few tricks.... 

[jvan1973]

2 minutes ago, SaturdayAllDay said:

Well there was this little known WR named Reggie Wayne around to teach Hilton a few tricks.... 

True

[Flash7]

9 minutes ago, SaturdayAllDay said:

Well there was this little known WR named Reggie Wayne around to teach Hilton a few tricks.... 

I have no doubt that Wayne was a good mentor to T.Y.

 

During the Pagano era, Reggie was around several other Colts receivers, yet only T.Y. emerged as a real threat. There is no way to separate what the coaches taught T.Y. and what Reggie taught him. All we know is that based on T.Y.'s skill set and desire to get better, he improved.

[adamthyst]

It's too early to tell, he was just a bad pick for us.