Andrew Luck partial shoulder subluxation (Merged)

[Superman]

I was getting the inclination that you were excusing the play of these players given that they had to start earlier than they were projected to.

 

If you watched the last game against the Jags, the offensive line was consistently getting pushed back into the backfield on running plays. Thornton and Holmes have both played horribly at times and them having to start earlier than expected isn't excusable. That's why your GM builds depth on the offensive line so that when players go down or end up getting released, you don't get stuck with the product that we are watching every Sunday.

 

I never said anything about them having to start sooner than they were supposed to. Even though that's true of Thornton, I didn't bring that up. You've mentioned it three times now. It's a straw man. 

 

I disagree about the line against the Jags. The run blocking wasn't great, but the line wasn't getting pushed back. Reitz did at times, but Holmes and Thornton were fine. And Thornton was doing a lot of pulling, and doing well. 

 

You keep talking about depth; in 2013, Grigson added several offensive linemen. Those moves didn't work out as well as we hoped, but again, let's not act like the concept of depth wasn't on anyone's mind. He spent $49m in free agency for immediate results, and used two draft picks for the future. This year, they've shuffled things around by necessity, so the depth is basically the guys who just got benched. I understand that we're not excited about those guys, but again, this lineup is optimal. But you've written Holmes and Thornton off, which is silly because neither of them have played enough to make a definitive judgment, and both of them are playing better right now than they have in the past. 

 

We can talk all day about what we should have done and what we could have done, and again, there's plenty of room to be critical. There's also reason for optimism, particularly with two young players that seem to finally be settling in. Or we can just keep pushing the false narrative that because they haven't spent first rounders on OL, that means they haven't done enough. With the exception of the Cowboys, most teams with good OL have players that were drafted in all different rounds, and most of the players that people around here pine after in free agency aren't first rounders.

[SurfinKal]

I agree with OP. There is more to this then they are letting on. I for one am greatley concerned.

[BrentMc11]

I find it kind of hard to believe Luck would miss two games with just a "sore shoulder".

My shoulder is sore.  Can I play?  

[csmopar]

Several days ago a poster on this site suggested Colts doctors told him Luck's injury was merely a bruise needing rest. These assurances seemed fishy as it makes no sense that Colts doctors would violate ethics codes and risk their fancy jobs with the Colts just to pump up the ego of a message board poster.

This morning we are once again reading about "subluxation" on the NFL.com site, mentioned as casually as today's weather forecast. So did I miss a statement from the Colts or Luck stating that he indeed has structural damage in his shoulder? No one can envision another disaster like 2011, but it seems unimaginable that the Colts would throw a guy with a partially separated shoulder on the field again this year, when he is surely going to get hit even more than he has in the past. There is blood in the water and the NFL is full of hungry sharks who would love to end his or any hurt qb's season.

 

 

 

really?!  right at the top of the page too......... http://forums.colts.com/topic/41072-andrew-luck-partial-shoulder-subluxation-per-report/

[Defjamz26]

I find it kind of hard to believe Luck would miss two games with just a "sore shoulder".

This isn't even the first time he's had a sore shoulder. There were rumors in 2013 that he had to ice his shoulder after a game or too and I think there was at least one time where he was listed as "probable " after a game because of just soreness.

[DougDew]

You continue to grasp at straws. You are just inferring about what Luck "probably" is doing when beating the blitz. Are you really going to fault him for beating the blitz and hitting a receiver for a touchdown? And quite frankly, with how the Colts offensive line is, playing in the AFC South isn't a cakewalk for them. JJ Watt always has monster games against the Colts and last year, Jacksonville's front 7 ate Luck alive for a good half of that game at home. Luck's success against the blitz also came more than just the AFC South as well.

 

Again, you are making your own inferences and stating them as facts with little to no backing. Every GM has their own line of reasoning for how they draft and to make a blanket statement such as the one you made here is a logical fallacy.

 

Hughes went on to Buffalo and actually had a level of success there. And I'm pretty sure he was an OLB in doing so. Mathis had his best season statistically as an OLB. Clearly they've had success as OLB's. You can reason the Werner pick all you want but the fact remains that Grigson flat out reached and missed on him.

 

I'm pretty sure Grigon has the autonomy to make a lot of his own choices. I doubt Irsay was in his office demanding he trade a 1st round pick for Richardson like you are making it seem. Another swing and miss that you are now wanting to blame the owner, and not the GM for.

 

The Colts are already stuck with an underperforming guard and center and have already had to shuffle the offensive line because of performance barely 3 weeks into the season. Herremans is already benched. Mewhort has been forced to move back to guard again. Continue to justify mediocrity while Luck will continue to take unnecessary hits because the Colts GM hasn't built the offensive line in 4 years.

I don't care about how PFF ranks Luck relative to Jimmy Clausen...or Peyton Manning.

The Oline struggles to block JJ Watt, yet Luck can apparently score TDs against the Texans. Why, because of a porous Texans secondary. To prevent TDs, CBs matter. Interior dlineman, not so much.

The core of the O's problems..resulting in Luck struggling..is that the Colts have never adequately replaced a healthy Reggie Wayne.

So far this season, the offense looks the same as it did in past times when Reggie was injured or when he could not get open. He was never a deep threat for Luck, he was a chain mover. Reggie Wayne's performance was the key to the O succeeding, and has been an integral part of Luck's stats since he came into the league. That's the difference.

The Oline has been pretty much the same, and we don't know that the offense would have done better if its interior was populated with higher round draft picks. We do know that the offense performs worse when its receivers don't get open quickly enough.

As far as TRich and the OLBs, you are sensationalizing my points. And you DON'T know that Grigs didn't have the approval of Irsay with the TRich trade, but are saying that he alone thought it up and made the trade all by himself.

The way this works, the CEO of a company sets out a strategy, then hires people to execute the strategy. Irsay hired Grigs and Pags to build a power running O and fatty 34 defense. He said that is what he wanted after he fired Polian. A bell cow RB (supposedly) and more versatile (supposedly) OLBs are Pillars of those two schemes.

[ProblChld32]

I find it kind of hard to believe Luck would miss two games with just a "sore shoulder".

 

Per the report X-Rays came back negative there is no other indication of anything other than a "sore shoulder" as far as to the extent of the pain. i can see one experiencing soreness to the point where it would limit the motion in their arms. I myself have experienced such pain before where i could barely move my arm and there was no structural damage or tears. So its not like it isn't possible. I'm no doctor but there hasn't been much word other than what has been given to us. 

[Restored]

I never said anything about them having to start sooner than they were supposed to. Even though that's true of Thornton, I didn't bring that up. You've mentioned it three times now. It's a straw man. 

 

I disagree about the line against the Jags. The run blocking wasn't great, but the line wasn't getting pushed back. Reitz did at times, but Holmes and Thornton were fine. And Thornton was doing a lot of pulling, and doing well. 

 

You keep talking about depth; in 2013, Grigson added several offensive linemen. Those moves didn't work out as well as we hoped, but again, let's not act like the concept of depth wasn't on anyone's mind. He spent $49m in free agency for immediate results, and used two draft picks for the future. This year, they've shuffled things around by necessity, so the depth is basically the guys who just got benched. I understand that we're not excited about those guys, but again, this lineup is optimal. But you've written Holmes and Thornton off, which is silly because neither of them have played enough to make a definitive judgment, and both of them are playing better right now than they have in the past. 

 

We can talk all day about what we should have done and what we could have done, and again, there's plenty of room to be critical. There's also reason for optimism, particularly with two young players that seem to finally be settling in. Or we can just keep pushing the false narrative that because they haven't spent first rounders on OL, that means they haven't done enough. With the exception of the Cowboys, most teams with good OL have players that were drafted in all different rounds, and most of the players that people around here pine after in free agency aren't first rounders.

 

 

You said that they were brought in for the future and not the present. How long were the Colts suppose to wait for these players to step in and make contributions? You said in your post that there were plenty of 3rd and 4th rounders making "huge contributions" yet Holmes and Thornton clearly are not. Thornton is just as bad as he was last year and is now a penalty machine.

 

You must not have watched the same game I watched because for nearly the entire game, Gore and Fumblitis 2.0 got stuffed at the line of scrimmage or worse on over half of their plays. Gore had a few runs but for the most part, there wasn't a lot of holes being opened on any part of the offensive line, hence Gore's awful rushing numbers from that game.

 

I never said that Grigson didn't try to address these issues. I just think he's kept trying to play a game with pennies when the machine takes quarters. I agree that the current line is the best of what the Colts have right now but the whole point of this discussion has been what Grigson HASN'T done to this point and that's he has not put an adequate line together. I really don't understand how people are trying to excuse Grigson by saying "He spent all this money and got all these linemen in the bottom of the draft". Trying is half of the equation. The other half is actually executing on it.

 

I'm not saying he should've spent every 1st or 2nd rounder after 12' on offensive linemen but it is telling that the one time he used one, he got a good player in Jack Mewhort.

[Superman]

You said that they were brought in for the future and not the present. How long were the Colts suppose to wait for these players to step in and make contributions? You said in your post that there were plenty of 3rd and 4th rounders making "huge contributions" yet Holmes and Thornton clearly are not. Thornton is just as bad as he was last year and is now a penalty machine.

 

You must not have watched the same game I watched because for nearly the entire game, Gore and Fumblitis 2.0 got stuffed at the line of scrimmage or worse on over half of their plays. Gore had a few runs but for the most part, there wasn't a lot of holes being opened on any part of the offensive line, hence Gore's awful rushing numbers from that game.

 

I never said that Grigson didn't try to address these issues. I just think he's kept trying to play a game with pennies when the machine takes quarters. I agree that the current line is the best of what the Colts have right now but the whole point of this discussion has been what Grigson HASN'T done to this point and that's he has not put an adequate line together. I really don't understand how people are trying to excuse Grigson by saying "He spent all this money and got all these linemen in the bottom of the draft". Trying is half of the equation. The other half is actually executing on it.

 

I'm not saying he should've spent every 1st or 2nd rounder after 12' on offensive linemen but it is telling that the one time he used one, he got a good player in Jack Mewhort.

 

Holmes and Thornton are starting, and playing reasonably well, so I don't get the "how long are the Colts supposed to wait" thing. You've just already made up your mind about them and refuse to evaluate their play on the field, in favor of holding to sensational knee-jerk reactions. For instance, Thornton is playing well, and half of his penalties in the TN game were bogus. But never mind actually watching the game... 

 

I know what game I watched, and rewatched, and graded, and watched plenty of All 22 on. I know what game Gore missed holes on, or refused to run outside on. I know that Gore played a bad game last week, and I never said the run blocking was good, but I know that the main reason the run game wasn't productive was because Gore wasn't sharp. I know that, in particular, both Holmes and Thornton did a good job of run blocking in that game.

 

If you hadn't continually brought up 'but he hasn't spent any first rounders on the line!', then I wouldn't be talking about the money that's been spent. If we leave the resources spent out of the equation -- acknowledging that resources spent don't equal success -- then we can just talk about results. And for the most part, we agree there, the OL isn't as good as it could be, given that we're in Year 4. What we disagree on is the evaluation of the players we have right now, namely Thornton and Holmes, and I think the primary reason is because we've already decided that those two are no good, despite the fact that they are doing at least a decent job right now. Neither of them are the saving grace of the OL, but that's not because they were 'only third and fourth rounders.' 

 

I said earlier, not sure if it was this thread or not, that I'm tired of being defensive of Grigson. No question he hasn't done a good job with the OL, for a variety of reasons, and it being a results-oriented job, we can just look at the results and reach that conclusion. I just feel compelled to argue against the ridiculous extremes and misinformed statements about the process and the present situation. 

[Restored]

I don't care about how PFF ranks Luck relative to Jimmy Clausen...or Peyton Manning.

The Oline struggles to block JJ Watt, yet Luck can apparently score TDs against the Texans. Why, because of a porous Texans secondary. To prevent TDs, CBs matter. Interior dlineman, not so much.

The core of the O's problems..resulting in Luck struggling..is that the Colts have never adequately replaced a healthy Reggie Wayne.

So far this season, the offense looks the same as it did in past times when Reggie was injured or when he could not get open. He was never a deep threat for Luck, he was a chain mover. Reggie Wayne's performance was the key to the O succeeding, and has been an integral part of Luck's stats since he came into the league. That's the difference.

The Oline has been pretty much the same, and we don't know that the offense would have done better if its interior was populated with higher round draft picks. We do know that the offense performs worse when its receivers don't get open quickly enough.

As far as TRich and the OLBs, you are sensationalizing my points. And you DON'T know that Grigs didn't have the approval of Irsay with the TRich trade, but are saying that he alone thought it up and made the trade all by himself.

The way this works, the CEO of a company sets out a strategy, then hires people to execute the strategy. Irsay hired Grigs and Pags to build a power running O and fatty 34 defense. He said that is what he wanted after he fired Polian. A bell cow RB (supposedly) and more versatile (supposedly) OLBs are Pillars of those two schemes.

 

If CB's matter and interior dlinemen don't matter, why did the Colts struggle last year against the Cowboys? In fact, by your logic, the Colts should've had no problem with the Rams in 2013. The Rams have a great front 7 but their secondary was no by no means elite.

 

We have a lot more to worry about if we think the core of the Colts offensive problem's has been Reggie Wayne's departure.

 

How am I sensationalizing your points? You claimed that Mathis and Hughes aren't OLB's yet when they got converted over to that position, they thrived. It had nothing to do with approval in regards to the TRich trade, but I'm lead to believe that Grigson thought to do this move on his own instead of being forced to by Irsay like you inferred.

 

And wrong, the pillars to a power running offense is a stout, mauling offensive line and a good NT for the 3-4. None of which the Colts have.

[Restored]

Holmes and Thornton are starting, and playing reasonably well, so I don't get the "how long are the Colts supposed to wait" thing. You've just already made up your mind about them and refuse to evaluate their play on the field, in favor of holding to sensational knee-jerk reactions. For instance, Thornton is playing well, and half of his penalties in the TN game were bogus. But never mind actually watching the game... 

 

I know what game I watched, and rewatched, and graded, and watched plenty of All 22 on. I know what game Gore missed holes on, or refused to run outside on. I know that Gore played a bad game last week, and I never said the run blocking was good, but I know that the main reason the run game wasn't productive was because Gore wasn't sharp. I know that, in particular, both Holmes and Thornton did a good job of run blocking in that game.

 

If you hadn't continually brought up 'but he hasn't spent any first rounders on the line!', then I wouldn't be talking about the money that's been spent. If we leave the resources spent out of the equation -- acknowledging that resources spent don't equal success -- then we can just talk about results. And for the most part, we agree there, the OL isn't as good as it could be, given that we're in Year 4. What we disagree on is the evaluation of the players we have right now, namely Thornton and Holmes, and I think the primary reason is because we've already decided that those two are no good, despite the fact that they are doing at least a decent job right now. Neither of them are the saving grace of the OL, but that's not because they were 'only third and fourth rounders.' 

 

I said earlier, not sure if it was this thread or not, that I'm tired of being defensive of Grigson. No question he hasn't done a good job with the OL, for a variety of reasons, and it being a results-oriented job, we can just look at the results and reach that conclusion. I just feel compelled to argue against the ridiculous extremes and misinformed statements about the process and the present situation. 

 

It's not a knee-jerk reaction. Thornton has been largely ineffective dating back to last season. Holmes hasn't been good this year. I've watched the games as well and clearly we aren't seeing the same performance.

 

If Gore was the main issue, why did Robinson not have success either? I'll tell you why. It's because the offensive line got very little push in the running game and has had plenty of other games over the past 4 years like it.

 

Resources can equal success when you are spending the right ones. Getting offensive linemen in the 7th round is "spending resources" but should you really expect any results? Doubtful. My whole case has been for Grigson to spend the RIGHT resources in order to get the line fixed. Thornton and Holmes may not be the saving but that's because they are not adequate players and happened to be selected in the 3rd and 4th rounds.

[DougDew]

If CB's matter and interior dlinemen don't matter, why did the Colts struggle last year against the Cowboys? In fact, by your logic, the Colts should've had no problem with the Rams in 2013. The Rams have a great front 7 but their secondary was no by no means elite.

 

We have a lot more to worry about if we think the core of the Colts offensive problem's has been Reggie Wayne's departure.

 

How am I sensationalizing your points? You claimed that Mathis and Hughes aren't OLB's yet when they got converted over to that position, they thrived. It had nothing to do with approval in regards to the TRich trade, but I'm lead to believe that Grigson thought to do this move on his own instead of being forced to by Irsay like you inferred.

 

And wrong, the pillars to a power running offense is a stout, mauling offensive line and a good NT for the 3-4. None of which the Colts have.

By your logic in the post before, our oline stinks because it can't block JJ Watt.

Mathis and Hughes have played the OLB position, but they have thrived as pass rushers, not as OLBs. That is why the OLB is THE most important component to the 34, IMO. ( Also, 2 press-man CBs and yes the NT). He needs to be a force in the pass rush AND the run game. And you don't find those multidimensional players below pick 20. NTs are one dimensional, unless they are a top ten pick like Ngata.

In the manner we have chosen to run the O when Wayne wasn't available, yes, the core of the problem was the lack of Reggie. The coaches should scheme and call plays to get the receivers open on shorter routes and move the chains. They can no longer rely upon a HOF-ish WR to do it for them. The long passes to TY were there because teams had to defend the short stuff with Reggie.

The Colts lost their possession WR, and neither Luck or the coaches have adjusted to it thus far. The lack of adjustment is the core of the problem, not the oline. Logically, if the Colts O scored a lot of points in the past with a similar or inferior Oline than what they have now, then the offense's struggles this year is not the result of the oline. It must be something else. It certainly isn't the absence of TRich.

Better RB, same QB, same quality Oline...fewer first downs and fewer points. Drop your bias and open your eyes.

[indyspeed13]

Explain each situation where Luck "beat the blitz" last year...and in year's past. Explain them. PFF assigned a number 16.2 to Luck. What does that mean? We do know it includes TDs. How often did the Colts convert 3rd and 8 into a first down against the blitz relative to other starting QBs.

You contend that Grigs didn't address the line well enough by citing how few first round draft choices he spent. He doesn't have to use a first round pick on the oline..and would actually be stupid to do so...because LT is the ONLY...yes ONLY... oline position worthy of a 1st round pick.

IOW, being a reasonable GM, he did not have the opportunity to use a first round pick on the oline because the player that a GM would use the pick on was already here.

I agree the only other option would be the draft this year dorsett 1st (I don't disagree with this pick) 2nd pick (which was third round trade) instead of smith could of drafted interior lineman, but in reality I like Smith as well hes very fast and has playmaker abilities just hopefully he stays healthy and corner was definitely an area of concern so what is your decision as a GM at this point?? After considering how well the offensive line did in the postseason What do you do? Add depth in FA>> Herramans (Have to admit didn't do well through 2 games.) and you hope they can perform as well as they did the end of last season. You trade ur 2nd rd pick for a 3rd and 4th you draft D'Joun Smith (we needed a corner) your other 3rd rnd you choose DL. Anyone disagree with Anderson? No. Safety was another need.. Geathers looks serviceable and has made some plays already. So all our offseason needs prioritized would be as follows IMO

1.D.Line

2.O.LINE

3.Secondary

After the postseason performances I had expectations for the offensive line. I believed they would be playing as well or better as the end of last year. I was wrong. Hopefully the coaches get some things adjusted up their and they progress the same way as last year.

And this is why im not blaming Grigson for our o-line issues. And in hindsight I think the smartest thing to do would of been to trade our 1st for a 2nd and 3rd or 2nd and 4th and maybe we could have found a serviceable o lineman in there. However I do feel that some coaching positions should have been scrutinized and possibly shuffled. O line coaching and honestly not a big fan of Manusky. Chud should be either O. Line coach or TE coach (or OC as others prefer)were not taking advantage of his abilities. But you cant cry over spilt milk. I like some of the picks this year. I believe this group will contribute ALOT more than prior years. But going into 16 as of right now..

Priority #1 O line

[Restored]

By your logic in the post before, our oline stinks because it can't block JJ Watt.

Mathis and Hughes have played the OLB position, but they have thrived as pass rushers, not as OLBs. That is why the OLB is THE most important component to the 34, IMO. ( Also, 2 press-man CBs and yes the NT). He needs to be a force in the pass rush AND the run game. And you don't find those multidimensional players below pick 20. NTs are one dimensional, unless they are a top ten pick like Ngata.

In the manner we have chosen to run the O when Wayne wasn't available, yes, the core of the problem was the lack of Reggie. The coaches should scheme and call plays to get the receivers open on shorter routes and move the chains. They can no longer rely upon a HOF-ish WR to do it for them. The long passes to TY were there because teams had to defend the short stuff with Reggie.

The Colts lost their possession WR, and neither Luck or the coaches have adjusted to it thus far. The lack of adjustment is the core of the problem, not the oline. Logically, if the Colts O scored a lot of points in the past with a similar or inferior Oline than what they have now, then the offense's struggles this year is not the result of the oline. It must be something else. It certainly isn't the absence of TRich.

Better RB, same QB, same quality Oline...fewer first downs and fewer points. Drop your bias and open your eyes.

 

No. Our o line stinks because they have trouble blocking JJ Watt and plenty of other players on different teams.

 

The purpose of the NT in a 3-4 is to eat up space and take on the A gaps so that the DE's and OLB's can have the opportunity to win their matchup's. If you don't have a good NT in a 3-4, you won't have much success. Many coaches echo this as well:

 

"The nose tackle and the inside linebackers, those are three guys that are very important. But when you go through it, the nose tackle is probably the single-most important guy."  

— Joe Collier, Denver Broncos assistant (1969–1988), architect of the "Orange Crush Defense"

 

I'll agree that the Colts losing Reggie was a loss but the Colts compensated just fine last season when he started to become a shell of himself. The problem is, the offensive line is worse than it was last year. It certainly is not equal to or better than. Couple that with Luck not playing up to his usual standard and you get the results.

 

It's really not that hard to see.

[DougDew]

No. Our o line stinks because they have trouble blocking JJ Watt and plenty of other players on different teams.

 

The purpose of the NT in a 3-4 is to eat up space and take on the A gaps so that the DE's and OLB's can have the opportunity to win their matchup's. If you don't have a good NT in a 3-4, you won't have much success. Many coaches echo this as well:

 

"The nose tackle and the inside linebackers, those are three guys that are very important. But when you go through it, the nose tackle is probably the single-most important guy."  

— Joe Collier, Denver Broncos assistant (1969–1988), architect of the "Orange Crush Defense"

 

I'll agree that the Colts losing Reggie was a loss but the Colts compensated just fine last season when he started to become a shell of himself. The problem is, the offensive line is worse than it was last year. It certainly is not equal to or better than. Couple that with Luck not playing up to his usual standard and you get the results.

 

It's really not that hard to see.

I agree that the NT is important, but there are only so many 1st and 2nd round picks to go around. And we've moved on from the fatty 34, so it history at this point. It appears that the 3rd and 5th round rookies are doing well.

And keep in mind that the Orange Crush defense was back in the day when the power running game was more of the norm and the passing game was less important. The NT doesn't really pass rush so just through evolution of the game that position has been reduced in importance relative to the late 1970's.

If Luck wants to stay healthy, the Colts need to get the shorter routes to open up, and maybe scheme more towards that goal instead of relying upon the WRs talent to do it, and they need to stop relying upon the more vertical routes to develop. I think pretty much everyone believes that.

[ColtsBlueFL]

Per the report X-Rays came back negative there is no other indication of anything other than a "sore shoulder" as far as to the extent of the pain. i can see one experiencing soreness to the point where it would limit the motion in their arms. I myself have experienced such pain before where i could barely move my arm and there was no structural damage or tears. So its not like it isn't possible. I'm no doctor but there hasn't been much word other than what has been given to us. 

I can't seem to find it. Can you show a report where the " X-Rays" were negative?  I know reports of the MRI was negative, which showed no structural damage.  But I caution you that MRI is done in a static, resting supine position and shows excellent soft tissue structures. But...

 

When doing X-rays, bony structures are often better visualized (fractures, dislocations, etc...).  For AC Joints, a standing bilateral AC Joint x-ray with and without weights (held in each hand) will demonstrate any injury to the Acromioclavicular joint, as the weight bearing will demonstrate a widening of the AC joint space.  My gut still tells me Luck suffered a type i or even possibly type II ( the more Luck sits out the more I lean toward type II ) AC separation event.   I also remember Luck wince in pain when someone patted him on the upper chest near the sternum and collar bone.  The Clavicle (collar bone) connects from the Manubrium of the sternum (breastbone) to the Acromion of the scapula (shoulder blade). I'm not even sure it was reported that any X-rays were taken on Luck and if so, the results were not made public.But unless Luck gives permission, the Colts can't do so.  Here's a nice blog about shoulder injuries and NFL QB's-

 

http://www.drdavidgeier.com/ac-joint-shoulder-injuries-nfl-football/

 

Here's a look at the shoulder-

 

 

 

 

 

A type I injury means there's no visible injury. The patient may have some swelling and tenderness right over the AC joint (front of the shoulder), but X-rays and motion are normal. A type II injury results in pain over the AC joint and positive findings on an X-ray (widening of the AC joint space). Sometimes there's vertical instability but not often. Types I and II AC joint injuries are treated conservatively (without surgery)

[Restored]

I agree that the NT is important, but there are only so many 1st and 2nd round picks to go around. And we've moved on from the fatty 34, so it history at this point. It appears that the 3rd and 5th round rookies are doing well.

And keep in mind that the Orange Crush defense was back in the day when the power running game was more of the norm and the passing game was less important. The NT doesn't really pass rush so just through evolution of the game that position has been reduced in importance relative to the late 1970's.

If Luck wants to stay healthy, the Colts need to get the shorter routes to open up, and maybe scheme more towards that goal instead of relying upon the WRs talent to do it, and they need to stop relying upon the more vertical routes to develop. I think pretty much everyone believes that.

 

The main philosophy of a 3-4 hasn't changed over the years. Your inferences that is has is misplaced. The NT continues to remain the most important piece in a 3-4 and the Colts clearly haven't taken care of that.

 

I agree the offense needs to change for this season given that it clearly isn't working. Magically, the Colts seemed to design their gameplan for Hasselbeck to suit this need.

 

Also here's some interesting tid bits about how Grigson has neglected the Colts offensive line:

 

-From the time Luck was inserted as starter, the Colts have used 86 different offensive line combinations, the second-most in the NFL over that span, behind only the Panthers. By contrast, the Cowboys have used 16. Already this season alone, the Colts have used seven OL combinations.

 

-Since the Colts drafted Luck, he has been hit 90 times while attempting to throw a pass, the most of any quarterback in the league over that time.

 

-Since the time Luck arrived in Indianapolis, the Colts' average annual cash value of its offensive line has been $17.2 million -- with only the Lions ($13.4 million), Bears ($15 million) and Bills ($16.2 million) spending less. 

 

If that doesn't scream neglect, I don't know what to tell you.

[DougDew]

The main philosophy of a 3-4 hasn't changed over the years. Your inferences that is has is misplaced. The NT continues to remain the most important piece in a 3-4 and the Colts clearly haven't taken care of that.

 

I agree the offense needs to change for this season given that it clearly isn't working. Magically, the Colts seemed to design their gameplan for Hasselbeck to suit this need.

 

Also here's some interesting tid bits about how Grigson has neglected the Colts offensive line:

 

-From the time Luck was inserted as starter, the Colts have used 86 different offensive line combinations, the second-most in the NFL over that span, behind only the Panthers. By contrast, the Cowboys have used 16. Already this season alone, the Colts have used seven OL combinations.

 

-Since the Colts drafted Luck, he has been hit 90 times while attempting to throw a pass, the most of any quarterback in the league over that time.

 

-Since the time Luck arrived in Indianapolis, the Colts' average annual cash value of its offensive line has been $17.2 million -- with only the Lions ($13.4 million), Bears ($15 million) and Bills ($16.2 million) spending less. 

 

If that doesn't scream neglect, I don't know what to tell you.

No. Its not misplaced. Not even close. I'm talking about the 0-tech 34 we used with Chapman, which is what Grigs was building under the Irsay's desire for a Pitt/San Diego type of team. The edge run stopper and pass rusher is simply more important. It was Woodley/Harrison for Pitt, and the Steroid dude for SD. Without them, teams would run around the edge or sit in the pocket all day.

All of your "data" screams what you want it to scream. To me it screams a formula for getting into the playoffs each year. So grigs "neglected" the right pieces.

To keep the QB upright while getting to the playoffs (as opposed to keeping him upright but losing) is to devote expensive resources to the edge positions and to use an offense that calls for a quicker release of the ball to offset a "neglected" interior oline and the lack of a HOF-isjh possession receiver.

Do you realize that your stats don't even support your conclusions.

[Restored]

No. Its not misplaced. Not even close. I'm talking about the 0-tech 34 we used with Chapman, which is what Grigs was building under the Irsay's desire for a Pitt/San Diego type of team. The edge run stopper and pass rusher is simply more important. It was Woodley/Harrison for Pitt, and the Steroid dude for SD. Without them, teams would run around the edge or sit in the pocket all day.

All of your "data" screams what you want it to scream. To me it screams a formula for getting into the playoffs each year. So grigs "neglected" the right pieces.

To keep the QB upright while getting to the playoffs (as opposed to keeping him upright but losing) is to devote expensive resources to the edge positions and to use an offense that calls for a quicker release of the ball to offset a "neglected" interior oline and the lack of a HOF-isjh possession receiver.

Do you realize that your stats don't even support your conclusions.

 

And how did Chapman turn out? The core philosophy of a 3-4 doesn't change. If you don't have a good NT, that type of defense will only have limited success. The Patriots for years had Wilfork. Ravens with Nghata.

 

I'm sorry but getting into the playoffs each year is by no means the level of success people or the owner are expecting. You consistently talk about what Irsay's wishes were and we all know he's wanted Superbowl(s) in this era.

 

In fact, the Colts have been extremly good against the AFC South but barely .500 against the rest of the NFL since 2012. The only thing good about the Colts formula so far is that it's good enough to beat up on terrible teams in the AFC South but not fair too well against elite teams. Case in point last season.

 

How do these stats not support my conclusions? I've said that Grigson neglected the offensive line.  Only 3 other teams spent less than the Colts. I've said that Luck continues to get punished behind a leaky offensive line. He's been hit the most while passing since the Colts drafted him. Connect the dots.

[DougDew]

And how did Chapman turn out? The core philosophy of a 3-4 doesn't change. If you don't have a good NT, that type of defense will only have limited success. The Patriots for years had Wilfork. Ravens with Nghata.

 

I'm sorry but getting into the playoffs each year is by no means the level of success people or the owner are expecting. You consistently talk about what Irsay's wishes were and we all know he's wanted Superbowl(s) in this era.

 

In fact, the Colts have been extremly good against the AFC South but barely .500 against the rest of the NFL since 2012. The only thing good about the Colts formula so far is that it's good enough to beat up on terrible teams in the AFC South but not fair too well against elite teams. Case in point last season.

 

How do these stats not support my conclusions? I've said that Grigson neglected the offensive line.  Only 3 other teams spent less than the Colts. I've said that Luck continues to get punished behind a leaky offensive line. He's been hit the most while passing since the Colts drafted him. Connect the dots.

You are arguing just to argue. We could have spent high round picks on the oline, less in other areas, and gone not as good against the AFC South and less than .500 against the rest. You are simply making assumptions about what the winning percentages would have been if Grigs did things your way.

Your other stats mean nothing because you are just looking at the drive-by stats of total resources spent compared to other teams over a short time period.

I made the point that Grigson has used the proper draft picks at the proper positions on the oline...not needing to draft a LT. Drive-by stats would obviously show him spending fewer high draft choices on the oline than other teams who drafted a LT over the measured period. The comparison would mean nothing.

And now you want to compare FA signings by looking at the total dollars spent relative to other teams. The teams not on the list, the ones who did spend more money, also spent money on Olineman who stunk, (see one of my previous posts) and the money they spent on stinky Olinemen will hurt their chances of re-signing their own good players. The ranking of total dollars spent by team means nothing.

It doesn't mean that Grigs neglected the oline because other teams spent more FA money or higher round draft picks. No

Luck gets hit more than most QBs because he doesn't move off of his spot 7 steps behind center fast enough and waits for the longer routes to open up. It started with Arians and it hasn't changed.

[crazycolt1]

Grigson has already spent 5 draft picks on lineman. 3 of which were high to mid round picks. What makes you think the problem is going to magically be fixed if he spends a first rounder? There are first round lineman from this years draft who are and will be busts. If the lineman you are so desperate to have does much of nothing in his first year I suppose you will fall back on the excuse that Grigson has a bad eye for talent? He should have drafted such and such in the first round instead of the other guy he picked in the first. Somebody else said we should have selected Malcolm Brown in the first round for the defense. He is currently being outplayed by our 3rd and 4th founders. Plenty of over valued players in the higher rounds.

Hind sight makes all the picks look good or bad? That is what some are complaining about. They act like Grigson has made no effort in trying to find good O-linemen.

[GoColts8818]

Just heard on Sports Center that Bob Holtzmen talked to a Colts source who said there is a 50 to 60% chance Luck starts against the Pats.

And so it begins...

[SDakColts]

There is 10 days before the Pats game meaning 10 days for progress with Luck's injury. Now ESPN is speculating on Luck's chances this far way. A lot can happen in 10 days so I wouldn't put much faith in this report. Now if this is reported 2-3 days before the game it is a different story.

[indy1888]

Not much better then the 50-50 that he was for this week. Seems like a low percentage considering the long break before that game. Holtzman also said it's a "sore shoulder" and not a long term thing.  If he should miss the Pats game it's approaching long term in terms of an NFL season.  Must be one heck of a sore shoulder.

[chrisfarley]

I can't imagine a colts staffer putting a percentage on this.  Holtzman got that out of thin-air IMO.  If it's true and the Colts did say that, then Luck's shoulder is A LOT WORSE than outsiders can even imagine and Andrew is doing a good job of hiding it.  To not play in the PATS game would be devastating.  Completely devastating.  National audience, important game (extremely important), important for the advancement of this franchise to the next level., important for the psyche of Luck and all the other players who have had to endure the embarrassment that the Patriots have leveled against the Colts.

[Jules]

Luck watch starts NOW.

[JH8788]

He was suppose to play tonight, which says that we purposely held him out so we had all hands on deck for NE & beyond.

[spartancolt]

I can't imagine a colts staffer putting a percentage on this.  Holtzman got that out of thin-air IMO.  If it's true and the Colts did say that, then Luck's shoulder is A LOT WORSE than outsiders can even imagine and Andrew is doing a good job of hiding it.  To not play in the PATS game would be devastating.  Completely devastating.  National audience, important game (extremely important), important for the advancement of this franchise to the next level., important for the psyche of Luck and all the other players who have had to endure the embarrassment that the Patriots have leveled against the Colts.

No doubt..these guys get the most advanced therapy daily. If he can't go the shoulder is bad. Luck needs to play if it truly is just sore because we need at least a respectable showing vs pats. Another blowout and the Pats will be in our head even more than they are now

[spartancolt]

Perhaps it's just gamesmanship. Maybe we want the Pats to prepare for 2 qb's

[2006Coltsbestever]

Luck plays and we win

[indy1888]

I can't imagine a colts staffer putting a percentage on this.  Holtzman got that out of thin-air IMO.  If it's true and the Colts did say that, then Luck's shoulder is A LOT WORSE than outsiders can even imagine and Andrew is doing a good job of hiding it.  To not play in the PATS game would be devastating.  Completely devastating.  National audience, important game (extremely important), important for the advancement of this franchise to the next level., important for the psyche of Luck and all the other players who have had to endure the embarrassment that the Patriots have leveled against the Colts.

 

I think it's already obvious that the shoulder is worse then they are saying.  Pagano was asked if he was confident Luck would be ready for the Pats and he answered "supremely" and then laughed. Obviously making a joke to when he said the same thing the week of the Jags game in which Luck missed.  He never did give an actual answer thought when pressed further, just said they look out for the player first.

[GoColts8818]

I think it's already obvious that the shoulder is worse then they are saying.  Pagano was asked if he was confident Luck would be ready for the Pats and he answered "supremely" and then laughed. Obviously making a joke to when he said the same thing the week of the Jags game in which Luck missed.  He never did give an actual answer thought when pressed further, just said they look out for the player first.

hes not going too and other then we want to know why should he? Make New England prepare for both, it can't hurt you and might help you.

Rather Luck is hurt bad or not I don't know but I do know if there is a guy on this roster they are going to be over cautious with sending back out there it's going to be Luck. No signal regular season game, even the Pats game, is worth risking his future over. You hold him out until you are 100% sure he has healed. Maybe that's New England maybe it's not. It's just wait and see.

[Warhorse]

Well, we sure wont see any Pats fans here. They are content to post on their own board and wouldn't think of trying to spread their opinion on other teams boards........nah...

[NewColtsFan]

There is 10 days before the Pats game meaning 10 days for progress with Luck's injury. Now ESPN is speculating on Luck's chances this far way. A lot can happen in 10 days so I wouldn't put much faith in this report. Now if this is reported 2-3 days before the game it is a different story.

 

 

ESPN isn't speculating.

 

They're passing along info from a source inside the Colts.      Whether that source is right or wrong we don't know yet.

 

But it isn't speculation on ESPN's part.

[presto123]

 Pagano said he is "extremely confident" Luck will play in the post game presser.

[GoColts8818]

ESPN isn't speculating.

 

They're passing along info from a source inside the Colts.      Whether that source is right or wrong we don't know yet.

 

But it isn't speculation on ESPN's part.

yeah if you just make stuff up in the media and you get caught you are in big trouble. In this case I think it's news we don't want to hear so we would love for it not to be legit. Like you said though, while this came from a source close to the Colts, it doesn't mean it will turn out to be right. Buckle up though it's going to be 10 days of these reports.

[GoColts8818]

Pagano said he is "extremely confident" Luck will play in the post game presser.

even he laughed when he said it this time. Pagano said it more as a joke and pretty much gave no real answer on the subject so it's just wait and see time now.

[SDakColts]

ESPN isn't speculating.

 

They're passing along info from a source inside the Colts.      Whether that source is right or wrong we don't know yet.

 

But it isn't speculation on ESPN's part.

By all means ESPN may actually have gotten information from "someone informed of the situation," but there is 10 days before we play the Pats. Therefore, it is all speculation at this point as we all don't know who is going to start. It really depends on how Luck's injury heals, and at this point many are basing his availability on probability and not facts. These are facts we won't know till closer to the Pats game. Like I said this report is kinda hard to put stock into 10 days before a game when progress could be made. Now if it was 2-3 days before a game it is much different.

[NewColtsFan]

By all means ESPN may actually have gotten information from "someone informed of the situation," but there is 10 days before we play the Pats. Therefore, it is all speculation at this point as we all don't know who is going to start. It really depends on how Luck's injury heals, and at this point many are basing his availability on probability and not facts. These are facts we won't know till closer to the Pats game. Like I said this report is kinda hard to put stock into 10 days before a game when progress could be made. Now if it was 2-3 days before a game it is much different.

 

 

It's speculation by ESPN's source,  but NOT by ESPN.    And I'm not trying to be clever here.

 

For example,  if Ron Jaworski said "As a former QB I can tell you that it's my guess that with 10 days to get ready, Luck is has roughly a 50 to 60 percent shot at starting"   THAT is ESPN speculation.

 

But if Adam Schefter or Chris Mortenson or Bob Holtzman (who was at the game and  made the report) says they talked to someone inside the Colts organization and that's THEIR VIEW,  then it's not ESPN speculating,  it's the source doing the speculating.    ESPN just passed it along.

 

I hope I've explained the difference.........

[SDakColts]

It's speculation by ESPN's source,  but NOT by ESPN.    And I'm not trying to be clever here.

 

For example,  if Ron Jaworski said "As a former QB I can tell you that it's my guess that with 10 days to get ready, Luck is has roughly a 50 to 60 percent shot at starting"   THAT is ESPN speculation.

 

But if Adam Schefter or Chris Mortenson or Bob Holtzman (who was at the game and  made the report) says they talked to someone inside the Colts organization and that's THEIR VIEW,  then it's not ESPN speculating,  it's the source doing the speculating.    ESPN just passed it along.

 

I hope I've explained the difference.........

Maybe I worded my explanation wrong, but I agree with you it is speculation by the source. NOT ESPN for reporting it. I knew what you meant the first time, but obviously I did a terrible job explaining that I did. It is late I can now obviously tell it is time for bed for me . Thanks for the time explaining NCF you did a through job.