Please Consider This (Edited)...

[The Peytonator]

Nice post Doogan.

One thing I'd like people to think about, is the complete absence of a 'sure thing' when it comes to the NFL draft. In '07 the first three picks were Jamarcus Russel, Calvin Johnson, and Joe Thomas, respectively. The team with the number one pick wasted what, $60 million on a massive bust, while the next two teams got players that are the best at their respective position 5 years down the road. Not saying Luck would be Jamarcus Russel, but there is no such thing as a guarnateed sure thing.

Also I want somebody that will contribute the next four years other than by holding a clipboard, because Big P ain't goin' nowhere.

[Jaric]

If Luck or no Luck then whats so insignificant from drafting first overall compared to 2nd or 3rd?

I'm glad you asked.

It's been reported that the trade value of the number one overall pick is somewhere in the range of 3-4 first round picks and several seconds. Now, it's almost always a situation where in order to trade up even a few spots into that number one overall spot the team trading up will have to give up quite a bit. Now, there are very few players that warrant that sort of trade.

By all accounts, Andrew Luck is that player. What that means is that teams are going to be more willing to mortgage their future by trading up and will be willing to pay a hefty price to do so. If we hold that pick, and we decide not to draft Andrew Luck, we will be the beneficiary of the feeding frenzy.

Do you know who Herschel Walker is? If not he was a RB for the Dallas Cowboys during their crappy years. When Jimmy Johnson took over for Tom Landry, one of the first things he did was to trade Hershel Walker to the Minnesota Vikings. In return they got (among other things) 3 first round picks and 3 second round picks which they used to draft the core of their 90s dynasty which won 3 Super Bowls.

If we get the number one overall pick, and teams are willing to give up anything remotely close to that, we will be in a similar situation. But that will not happen unless we hold the number one pick. It all goes out the window if we beat the Jaguars because the value of the second or third overall pick drops dramatically once Luck is off the board.

That's why I'm rooting for the number one pick over a meaningless game at the end of a failed season.

[presto123]

We gain more by losing than winning. I will not be shameful in wanting a bright future for the team long after Peyton is gone.(which still could be now) Sure there are no guarantees with Luck(nor with anybody ), but when the experts say he's the best prospect in a decade I tend to believe them more than Mr. average Joe poster here. You absolutely can't afford to pass it up if there's even a chance that he can be the next elite QB. We have seen first hand how important the QB position is this year.

[Jaric]

And before you say it's not about Luck, I'm calling your bluff... FO will NOT trade it... Was all but said they will use it on a QB... If it wasn't about Luck you would be so worried about grabbing a different QB on the 2nd or 3rd pick... But point is IF a QB is taken ANY QB in first round... We wasted 2012 first round pick for next 3 to 4 years... No other way to look at it if Manning is back... Team needs help now NOT just 3 years from now

It's not a bluff for you to call.

I mean, I certainly see the arguments for drafting Luck and I think they have merit. I also see significant merit in trading the pick. Either way, it's an excellent situation to be in.

And you have no idea what the front office will and won't do until they actually do it. As has been said again and again, you cannot trust anything that comes out of a front office when it comes to draft intentions. There is so much misinformation that it's a fools errand to even try. You may as well try prying injury information out of Bill Belichick.

Now, you can certainly believe that they won't trade it. There is even evidence to support that (and IMO a legitimate but not definitive argument that it's the best option) but none of us will know what they want to do until it happens.

[Jaric]

By the way, those of you who disagree with me on this, I totally get it. Heck, up until about a week ago I was there with you.

All I ask though (and I think the same could be said for the people who are of the same opinion) is that if you want to disagree with me, please don't insult me or pretend I'm not a fan for thinking so. Our only intentions are what we feel are the best interest of the team long term.

I hate losing. But if losing one game secures our long term future, I'll sit through it.

[The Peytonator]

By the way, those of you who disagree with me on this, I totally get it. Heck, up until about a week ago I was there with you.

All I ask though (and I think the same could be said for the people who are of the same opinion) is that if you want to disagree with me, please don't insult me or pretend I'm not a fan for thinking so. Our only intentions are what we feel are the best interest of the team long term.

I hate losing. But if losing one game secures our long term future, I'll sit through it.

I know what you mean dude. I just don't think there's a whole lot of difference between the first, second, and third picks. You're either going to get a stud, or a massive Jamarcus-sized bust.......and knowing the Colts, they will draft Luck with the number one pick, so I'd rather win and get the third pick so we can draft Morris Claiborne or Quinton Coples.

[Jaric]

I know what you mean dude. I just don't think there's a whole lot of difference between the first, second, and third picks. You're either going to get a stud, or a massive Jamarcus-sized bust.......and knowing the Colts, they will draft Luck with the number one pick, so I'd rather win and get the third pick so we can draft Morris Claiborne or Quinton Coples.

You might be right (about us drafting Luck)

But I have to imagine if the browns show up with a suitcase full of draft picks, Irsay and Polian think long and hard about it (despite what they might have said publicly)

I'm still not sure what I think is the best thing to do with it.

[pacolts56]

It's not a bluff for you to call.

I mean, I certainly see the arguments for drafting Luck and I think they have merit. I also see significant merit in trading the pick. Either way, it's an excellent situation to be in.

And you have no idea what the front office will and won't do until they actually do it. As has been said again and again, you cannot trust anything that comes out of a front office when it comes to draft intentions. There is so much misinformation that it's a fools errand to even try. You may as well try prying injury information out of Bill Belichick.

Now, you can certainly believe that they won't trade it. There is even evidence to support that (and IMO a legitimate but not definitive argument that it's the best option) but none of us will know what they want to do until it happens.

100% accurate..... if Bill Polian told me the sky was blue I'd peek outside just to make sure.

Anyway its a crazy situation and I gotta hunch that this topic of the 2012 Colts draft may very well equal or surpass the "Manning vs Brady" debates in longevity.

We're gonna run out of dead horses to beat on this one.

[jedi.creech]

And you have no idea what the front office will and won't do until they actually do it. As has been said again and again, you cannot trust anything that comes out of a front office when it comes to dtray intentions.

This I can agree upon. I am going under the assumption of what the FO has said, and that could be a bluff... I'm simply trying to say according to the FO they want to use first pick for a QB... Now again I'm using reports on Manning's progress that there's a VERY good chance he'll be back, and assuming these reports are correct, I'm stating our team NEEDS help now, a QB pick with Manning, does NOT help the team now... Not even near future now... 3 to 4 years, how long has this one season felt that not even over? We need a first round pick that helps now. I feel a 2nd or 3rd pick MAY be used on a different position other then a QB... Something that helps now, and the future instead of a 1st round pick if used on a QB to sit for years... Again I will admit I'm assuming that the FO is not bluffing about refusing to trade the pick.

[jedi.creech]

Sorry messed up your quote "draft intentions"... Hard to reply to quotes on my phone

[Jaric]

This I can agree upon. I am going under the assumption of what the FO has said, and that could be a bluff... I'm simply trying to say according to the FO they want to use first pick for a QB... Now again I'm using reports on Manning's progress that there's a VERY good chance he'll be back, and assuming these reports are correct, I'm stating our team NEEDS help now, a QB pick with Manning, does NOT help the team now... Not even near future now... 3 to 4 years, how long has this one season felt that not even over? We need a first round pick that helps now. I feel a 2nd or 3rd pick MAY be used on a different position other then a QB... Something that helps now, and the future instead of a 1st round pick if used on a QB to sit for years... Again I will admit I'm assuming that the FO is not bluffing about refusing to trade the pick.

Listen, I get what you're saying about needing to get better now and all. It's a legitimate argument because even after Manning leaves (which will happen at some point) you have a decent foundation.

However, if you determine that Andrew Luck is who alot of people think he is...

Yes obviously it's a gamble. But then all draft picks are. The question is, "Is the gamble worth it?"

"I" don't know what I think they should do with it. I do however know, that you are in a much better situation tactically if you hold the number one pick in a draft where there is a QB coming out that has everyone all hot and bothered. I mean, can you imagine how bright the future looks with 3 or 4 extra 1st round picks and a couple of extra second rounders?

[braveheartcolt]

Nice try Doog. You've been watching Independence Day too many time with that speech.

Wanting the best for the future of your Football Club is exactly what a fan should do. Showing some contrived 'acting for the camera' is tacky and the sort of thing Polian would do to save his job.

I'm rooting for a Colts win btw, and one win for the Rams and Vikes.

[nitecrawler]

Sorry, can't get excited over winning a meaningless game at the end of a horrible season when it means giving up either a future franchise QB or a bunch of early round draft picks.

Go JAGS!!!

[presto123]

Sorry, can't get excited over winning a meaningless game at the end of a horrible season when it means giving up either a future franchise QB or a bunch of early round draft picks.

Go JAGS!!!

I hear you. Is it to late to buy a Jags jersey off of Ebay? I am just kidding but I will be in full Jags rooting mode for sure.

[Curveball]

Thank you, doogansquest, for the excellent post. I'll never understand the rationale that makes losing beneficial.

[nitecrawler]

Thank you, doogansquest, for the excellent post. I'll never understand the rationale that makes losing beneficial.

YOU MAKE THE CALL: a 3rd win or 3 extra early draft picks (plus maybe a player or 2)

Based on this season and the number of holes that have been exposed on this team, I doubt many are like the guy below

3 and 13

[Dan]

Nope he's not lonely at all all true fans that wants what's best for our team now... Not 4 years from now are right up there with him shaking our head in complete disbelief that any player who hasn't even taken one single NFL snap is being thought of as a HOF'er... I've never taken an NFL snap does that make me a sure vote for a HOF'er? FO will NOT trade pick accept that... What's worse going 3-13 this year and getting to USE a first round pick next year, or going 2-14 and NOT getting to use a first round pick for 4 years??? After this season...

Our team needs help NOW, Luck provides NO help for 3 or 4 years... Then we get him for what 5 or 6 years? Sorry how does that help the team... If you can explain that I will listen

Nope he's not lonely at all all true fans that wants what's best for our team now...

all true fans

all true fans

How's the view up there?

[Fatboyslim11]

For those of you who want us to lose the last game, all in the name of a player who hasn't played a snap in the NFL; all for a player who is not a member of this team you (claim to) love, nor a teammate to the guys we cheer for every week... shame on you.

Watch this video. See the elation of the players who ARE Indianapolis Colts. Guys who have proven themselves in the NFL, and who give back to the community we are all privileged to be a part of. These are the guys that matter. Many of these are the faces we need to re-sign. These guys want to win:

http://www.colts.com...15-14b0f08f6b27

You want them to lose? You are going to cheer for them to lose to get a guy who's not as good as any of them right now? You want that joy to drain out of them so we can pick up a guy who won't play with them? A guy who won't bring them back from this losing season because many of them will be gone by the time he plays, or will be cut to make room for his contract?

I'll admit, I understand the complaints about Coach Caldwell more than the ones cheering for a loss next weekend. The players, on the other hand, seem to think of our coach differently. While on the same video page from the link above, check out the thumbnail video titled "Caldwell postgame locker room speech."

That's a coach with no emotion, remember. That's a guy no one has respect for. He has no understanding of the game, command of the locker room, or any of the intangibles to inspire others. He's just a puppet.

I guess the player response in that video is more proof we need to lose on purpose, not only to concern ourselves with a non-factor QB, but also to get that guy in the circle fired.

As an aside, I am aware that everyone who types on the internet can have an opinion. But that doesn't mean everyone should type that opinion, or receive a pass for that blanket reason. These are human beings. They aren't products or services of a business. The brand is, sure, as is the memorabilia; they, on the other hand, are men. They play to win. They care about the guys who are there now. We support these guys because they are the ones driving the franchise we cheer for. We are not players, and I get that. We shouldn't think like a player, right? If that's true, then that also means we shouldn't decide what's best for the team they play for.

I won't call anyone a pretend fan for hoping we lose. But they know, as well as anyone with a shred of perception, that they are no better than the man they blame for pulling the players in 2009.

Although appreciated, A couple of sappy vids will not make up for overall incompetence. It is good and "fortunate" that you would post a heart warming post like this during the holiday season. I believe no one that follows the Colts want them to lose, ever. What is your next video - Bill and Chris Polian helping an old lady across the the street?

Oh joy to the world!

[Nadine]

Well...We could start picking the scabs on that whole 14-0 resting starters thing.

That's always fun.

EDIT: Or how about a Brady/Manning thread?

Thanks for that

[Nadine]

The whole time I read about the emotion of the player all I can think about is the emotional 180 Ernie has. Look at the post game losses and he talks quiet and depressed. After the two wins you think the man is the happiest man in the world. I love it. I just like him so much, I don't know why.

I was thinking the same thing watching him in that video

Talk about having stared adversity in the face........and overcoming it. I cannot imagine how awesome that feels

I think though that his huge smile after the last two Ws ........spoke for many fans

[Nadine]

Sorry folks. I just find it hard to root against this team - especially when they've shown so much spirit these last two.

It's fun to hear/see it happening. It DOES remind me of years past.

As others have said, whatever happens is going to happen, but I can't root against my team. Love them too much!

If we don't get the #1 pick i still bask in the glow of having a 3 game winning streak to end the season. After losing

13 in a row (in the same season no less!) that will be an absolutely AWESOME feeling!!

Me too.

Whatever next year hold for us, I say BRING IT!

[Nadine]

@doogan

Thanks for the videos. For me it was like reliving those Ws. I'd also like a copy of the video of Peyton falling to the ground and watching the game from his hands and knees in that game. Emotions were very high in that game for the players and the fans.

I'm in the camp that thrives on these victories and believe they do a lot for this team.......and it's fine if people think that's sappy. I'm happy to own that.

I'm sorry they cannot really feel these victories or see what they do for the team...... because they've got their eye on next season

I saw there were even people IN the stadium that were unhappy about the win. It's incomprehensible to me but........it's also fine with me.

This is a divisive issue though and I don't shame any colts fan for wanting the #1 pick

Heck, even my mom is on the phone to me once a week about it (she's in the Suck for Luck camp).

The only thing for sure here is that nobody is going to change anybody's mind on this one. The best we can do is to try and keep things from degenerating into insult fests...........like Manning v Brady for sure

@everyone else: Thanks for continued efforts to keep this debate.......... civil

Please try to avoid all fan card type discussions. They never have good results............NOT EVER

[Case]

Nope he's not lonely at all all true fans that wants what's best for our team now... Not 4 years from now are right up there with him shaking our head in complete disbelief that any player who hasn't even taken one single NFL snap is being thought of as a HOF'er... I've never taken an NFL snap does that make me a sure vote for a HOF'er? FO will NOT trade pick accept that... What's worse going 3-13 this year and getting to USE a first round pick next year, or going 2-14 and NOT getting to use a first round pick for 4 years??? After this season...

Our team needs help NOW, Luck provides NO help for 3 or 4 years... Then we get him for what 5 or 6 years? Sorry how does that help the team... If you can explain that I will listen

Not true at all. What if PM doesn't pass physical and isn't the same and the colts part ways. Luck gives us the next chance of winning. Having 3rd pick pretty much means another year with 2-5 wins for a couple years.

[SilentHill]

I didn't have time to read all that nonsense, but what about those of us who want the team to lose just to trade the pick?

[ruksak]

I didn't have time to read all that nonsense, but what about those of us who want the team to lose just to trade the pick?

Thats where it gets interesting. This draft stands to rip the fanbase right down the middle. The Polians are going to have to earn their bucks the hard way on this one.

[braveheartcolt]

Rooting for your team during the game, and hoping they don't actually win are two different things. I was clapping and cheering like crazy when we were beating the Titans, but after the game felt anguish as I do want the #1 pick.

Why is that hard to understand, and why in Doogan's obvious insulting post (THE SHAME) do we need to flame those good honest fans that just want a brighter future. Happy clapping a post that is obviously aimed at ridiculing fellow fans should be booed off the Forum.

[ruksak]

Rooting for your team during the game, and hoping they don't actually win are two different things. I was clapping and cheering like crazy when we were beating the Titans, but after the game felt anguish as I do want the #1 pick.

Why is that hard to understand, and why in Doogan's obvious insulting post (THE SHAME) do we need to flame those good honest fans that just want a brighter future. Happy clapping a post that is obviously aimed at ridiculing fellow fans should be booed off the Forum.

I think he was moreso addressing the sentiment that folks have conveyed saying that the players didn't get anything out of these "meaningless" wins. After all the talk about purposeful tanking, I think Doogy made some great effort to reverse that train of thought.

[braveheartcolt]

I think he was moreso addressing the sentiment that folks have conveyed saying that the players didn't get anything out of these "meaningless" wins. After all the talk about purposeful tanking, I think Doogy made some great effort to reverse that train of thought.

I respectfully disagree. The 'you (claim to) love' comment wasn't even a veiled pot shot, it was an intentional pot-shot at those who disagree with his valued opinion.

[ruksak]

I respectfully disagree. The 'you (claim to) love' comment wasn't even a veiled pot shot, it was an intentional pot-shot at those who disagree with his valued opinion.

I disagree in turn....

He (Doogan) brings up a valid contradiction. How can one claim to have love for and fully support the players yet become disgruntled when they win, simply because it undermines an individual fans desires for better draft position?

BTW....players don't care AT ALL about next years draft. Maybe some should consider these things when flying off into tangential rants about tanking the season and counterproductive wins.

[jedi.creech]

I didn't have time to read all that nonsense, but what about those of us who want the team to lose just to trade the pick?

If that happen for sure... I would be hoping with everything in me we get the 1st pick... I wouldn't be hoping Colts lose, but I would hope for first pick... Like I said earlier I was wrong by assuming that the FO is saying the truth over, and over they will not trade the pick... I understand it could be a bluff... Call it gut feeling I don't feel our FO is smart enough to take the trade, I think they will pick with it and our first pick sits on the bench for 3 years helping us none till then, if that happens I hope Luck isn't a bust when he gets off that bench in 3 to 4 years

[Case]

I disagree in turn....

He (Doogan) brings up a valid contradiction. How can one claim to have love for and fully support the players yet become disgruntled when they win, simply because it undermines an individual fans desires for better draft position?

BTW....players don't care AT ALL about next years draft. Maybe some should consider these things when flying off into tangential rants about tanking the season and counterproductive wins.

I know for a fact 100% some players are thinking about next years draft. Not saying who but there are a few guys who do.

[jedi.creech]

Not true at all. What if PM doesn't pass physical and isn't the same and the colts part ways. Luck gives us the next chance of winning. Having 3rd pick pretty much means another year with 2-5 wins for a couple years.

Okay... Again I stated I'm only assuming the reports on manning are correct, and that's where I'm basing my thoughts... However I find it very hard to believe that Luck (again never taken one snap in NFL) can walk in here with this team as is, and turn it into a 10-6 team instead of 2-14... wait our team is not going to have our number 1 WR more then likely so, an even worse team

[The Fish]

I saw this video last night before I went to bed, and was thinking, for the suck for luck crowd, worst that can happen is that we go back to winning a lot of games with Peyton. I really enjoyed watching his reaction's as those are mine as well many times during watching..

[supremecoltsfan300]

I know for a fact 100% some players are thinking about next years draft. Not saying who but there are a few guys who do.

Those players are lacking intelligence. No one is safe, so why would you worry about a draft for a team you might not even be playing for. and the draft also means that your job is in jerparody as a replacement could be drated. i dont think the smart players are concerned with getting the first pick or not. i think they care about winning and playing well so they have a job.

[Jaric]

BTW....players don't care AT ALL about next years draft. Maybe some should consider these things when flying off into tangential rants about tanking the season and counterproductive wins.

Again, just to reiterate: No one is suggesting they tank the game.

[ruksak]

I know for a fact 100% some players are thinking about next years draft. Not saying who but there are a few guys who do.

...and you aren't saying why? Maybe a handful of players that know they'll be here next year, if it's even possible to know such a thing. For example, you think Reggie is concerned at all about the 2012 draft?

[ruksak]

Again, just to reiterate: No one is suggesting they tank the game.

I was more or less reverting back to the conspiratorial comments made throughout the season.

[Jay305]

>>> Luck lets keep winning and take RG3

[-JJ-]

I'm glad you asked.

It's been reported that the trade value of the number one overall pick is somewhere in the range of 3-4 first round picks and several seconds. Now, it's almost always a situation where in order to trade up even a few spots into that number one overall spot the team trading up will have to give up quite a bit. Now, there are very few players that warrant that sort of trade.

By all accounts, Andrew Luck is that player. What that means is that teams are going to be more willing to mortgage their future by trading up and will be willing to pay a hefty price to do so. If we hold that pick, and we decide not to draft Andrew Luck, we will be the beneficiary of the feeding frenzy.

Do you know who Herschel Walker is? If not he was a RB for the Dallas Cowboys during their crappy years. When Jimmy Johnson took over for Tom Landry, one of the first things he did was to trade Hershel Walker to the Minnesota Vikings. In return they got (among other things) 3 first round picks and 3 second round picks which they used to draft the core of their 90s dynasty which won 3 Super Bowls.

If we get the number one overall pick, and teams are willing to give up anything remotely close to that, we will be in a similar situation. But that will not happen unless we hold the number one pick. It all goes out the window if we beat the Jaguars because the value of the second or third overall pick drops dramatically once Luck is off the board.

That's why I'm rooting for the number one pick over a meaningless game at the end of a failed season.

lol. I remember that mega trade. Does that still remain the biggest trade? How long did Hershel play? I forget all that stuff:)

[Jaric]

lol. I remember that mega trade. Does that still remain the biggest trade? How long did Hershel play? I forget all that stuff:)

He played like 1 or 2 more years, and nothing even close to the level of production he had in Dallas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herschel_Walker_trade