in order to compete we need to..........

[BOTT]

1. Acquire more talent

2. Hire better coaches

The usual....

[ColtStronger]

My problem is with the bolded. We can sit here and wish for Werner to be something he's not, simply because of who he "replaced" and where he was drafted, or we can deploy him in the way that makes the most sense for what he's good at. Prior to this season, I was of the opinion that he needed to be a Rush backer, but he's clearly a Sam backer.

 

And no, I don't think it's good to draft a Sam backer in the first round, but again, it's over. He's a good player, he's just not the pass rusher we thought he'd be.

 

I particularly disagree with the thought that he only does enough to get by. Even if you're only viewing his pass rush, he's clearly a high effort player. And once you start looking at his work against the run and in coverage, it's very obvious that he's done a good job.

 

I agree that Richardson is the best pass blocker among our backs. And he's not bad as a receiver out of the backfield, can even make people miss in space. But as a runner, he's been bad, and there's little hope for the future. I don't know why we should continue talking about how bad the trade was; again, everyone knows it was bad, and it's over now. Time to move on.

I understand he isn't a huge threat as a pass rusher, and even if that isn't his strength doesn't mean he shouldn't be coached more to become better.  He is a stay at home base, solid wrap up, tackler.  Not saying he is a bad player but that's not really what we need.  Art Jones, Redding, RJF, Chapman, and Kerr, all rotate to clog up holes which makes it simple for Werner to do his job.  I think an average OLB can do what Werner does.  Walden has been a disappointment for the most part, so that leaves us with Newsome (a rookie) the only somewhat decent pass rusher we have.  Even when Mathis comes back I don't really see him much as a threat at his age.  He may be good for 5 sacks all year, but he will really start to show his age.  It just seems like we have a handful of average LB's that really does us no good.  I wish we had a dominant pass rusher and a great coverage LB, and take your pick of our mediocre LB's already on the roster to fill in the roster.  I believe with a couple seasons of work and dedication, I see Newsome having the potential of being a 10-15 sack guy with 5 forced fumbles on a yearly basis.  Werner maybe a 30-40 tackles guy that simply comes up and makes tackles.  He may have an occasional forced fumble or hard hit, but nothing game changing...

[GOCOLTS_ROLLTIDE]

Not true. Mathis is far better against the run than Newsome, which is really saying something about how undisciplined Newsome is.

And understand before anyone gets carried away, I am and have been a huge fan of Newsome's. I think he can be a special pass rusher. But he's young and raw, and his role needs to be specially catered in order to prevent him from being exploited in the run game. If you start him in place of either Werner or Walden, the run defense would suffer.

In the same respect I think bjoern is a good player he's just not a rush linebacker. I love how he plays the run, and short pass routes but we need pass rush desperately. We have been playing 2 Sam backers

[Jason_]

I understand he isn't a huge threat as a pass rusher, and even if that isn't his strength doesn't mean he shouldn't be coached more to become better.  He is a stay at home base, solid wrap up, tackler.  Not saying he is a bad player but that's not really what we need.  Art Jones, Redding, RJF, Chapman, and Kerr, all rotate to clog up holes which makes it simple for Werner to do his job.  I think an average OLB can do what Werner does.  Walden has been a disappointment for the most part, so that leaves us with Newsome (a rookie) the only somewhat decent pass rusher we have.  Even when Mathis comes back I don't really see him much as a threat at his age.  He may be good for 5 sacks all year, but he will really start to show his age.  It just seems like we have a handful of average LB's that really does us no good.  I wish we had a dominant pass rusher and a great coverage LB, and take your pick of our mediocre LB's already on the roster to fill in the roster.  I believe with a couple seasons of work and dedication, I see Newsome having the potential of being a 10-15 sack guy with 5 forced fumbles on a yearly basis.  Werner maybe a 30-40 tackles guy that simply comes up and makes tackles.  He may have an occasional forced fumble or hard hit, but nothing game changing...

 

how has Walden been a disappointment?

[Dustin]

First, I'm not complaining that Newsome is only good at pass rushing. He's a rookie 5th round draft pick. All things considered, I'm very happy with what he's done so far. That, however, does not mean he is currently a good all around OLB because he is not. And yes, I did say the same things about Freeney. However with Freeney, that was more a product of the system he was playing in. He wasn't asked to stop the run. He was asked to go after the QB each and every down.

And that's great...that's why he should be used as a pass rush specialist right now, and not as an every down OLB because he is not an every down OLB at this point in his career.

Werner is also better in coverage. That, along with his far better ability against the run, makes him a much better every down OLB. Werner can do everything we ask of an OLB. He's not as good of a speed rusher, but he can still rush the passer and get pressure.

I guess he is literally capable at it. But he's awful as a pass rusher.

[Superman]

I understand he isn't a huge threat as a pass rusher, and even if that isn't his strength doesn't mean he shouldn't be coached more to become better.  He is a stay at home base, solid wrap up, tackler.  Not saying he is a bad player but that's not really what we need.  Art Jones, Redding, RJF, Chapman, and Kerr, all rotate to clog up holes which makes it simple for Werner to do his job.  I think an average OLB can do what Werner does.  Walden has been a disappointment for the most part, so that leaves us with Newsome (a rookie) the only somewhat decent pass rusher we have.  Even when Mathis comes back I don't really see him much as a threat at his age.  He may be good for 5 sacks all year, but he will really start to show his age.  It just seems like we have a handful of average LB's that really does us no good.  I wish we had a dominant pass rusher and a great coverage LB, and take your pick of our mediocre LB's already on the roster to fill in the roster.  I believe with a couple seasons of work and dedication, I see Newsome having the potential of being a 10-15 sack guy with 5 forced fumbles on a yearly basis.  Werner maybe a 30-40 tackles guy that simply comes up and makes tackles.  He may have an occasional forced fumble or hard hit, but nothing game changing...

 

I don't agree with your summation of Werner as a player. And even if I did, every team needs that kind of player. You said earlier that this wasn't about picking on him, but it seems like you just don't like him, and that's your prerogative, but your categorization of him is way off, IMO.

 

I don't agree with your assessment of Walden as a disappointment. I was hoping we were collectively beyond the "Walden isn't good" era. Not a great pass rusher, but he had a career high in sacks this season, and he was strong against the run, and he was sufficient in coverage. The only way anyone should be disappointed in Walden is if they expected him to be a top notch pass rusher.

 

As for wishing for a dominant pass rusher, umm, don't we all? I don't know what to say about Mathis, but we need to add pass rushers as often as possible.

[Dustin]

Werner should only see a 3rd and 4+ due to injury.

[Jason_]

I guess he is literally capable at it. But he's awful as a pass rusher.

 

thanks for stopping by to interject your usual over the top hyperbole

[Tracy Denton]

I don't agree with your summation of Werner as a player. And even if I did, every team needs that kind of player. You said earlier that this wasn't about picking on him, but it seems like you just don't like him, and that's your prerogative, but your categorization of him is way off, IMO.

 

I don't agree with your assessment of Walden as a disappointment. I was hoping we were collectively beyond the "Walden isn't good" era. Not a great pass rusher, but he had a career high in sacks this season, and he was strong against the run, and he was sufficient in coverage. The only way anyone should be disappointed in Walden is if they expected him to be a top notch pass rusher.

 

As for wishing for a dominant pass rusher, umm, don't we all? I don't know what to say about Mathis, but we need to add pass rushers as often as possible.

Well said !! Werner and Newsome are still learning the ropes, they will get there !! Walden has been solid, he wasnt brought here to be a pass rusher but I will take his 6 sacks !! and as far as everyone saying that we have zero pass rush....we only have one less than last year and tied for 9th in the NFL, last year we were 11th.

[Dustin]

thanks for stopping by to interject your usual over the top hyperbole

Worst pressure/pass rush ratio of 3-4 edge rushers to play over 50% of the teams snaps. Fourth worst for 25%.

>Good pass rusher

>Bjoern Werner

Pick one.

[Jason_]

Worst pressure/pass rush ratio of 3-4 edge rushers to play over 50% of the teams snaps. Fourth worst for 25%.

>Good pass rusher

>Bjoern Werner

Pick one.

Didn't say he was good, but he's not awful either.

[open window]

1. Acquire more talent

2. Hire better coaches

The usual....

Beat the Bengals, then the Broncos, host Ravens and top it off with a win over the Seahawks here in my hometown.

[kycoltsfan]

1.  Join the SEC Conference

[Dustin]

Didn't say he was good, but he's not awful either.

Yeah he is. Statistically the worst starter.

[The Fish]

I think better players, but more importantly consistency on the O line and an upgrade at running back would do this squad wonders. \

 

A stud linebacker would be nice also. 

[CanuckColt]

is Werner better against the run?

Werner is average at everything in this 3-4 D...he was effective as a DE with his hand in the dirt in college.

Coach Chuck gets his man again...I wish Chuck knew what he was doing. 

And we can't blame Grigson for Werner...Chuck would have the major say on D players.

[James Harden]

And have some luck on our side....

[NewEra]

Not have 10 different offensive lines in a 16 game season. I think the only player to start every game was AC. Sad...

[MacDee1975]

Why hasn't people been bashing Werner like Trent?  Werner was a 1st round pick that wasn't traded for!!  It seems that when people have an eye on him he shows up for 2 games to get the monkey off his back, then the bear goes back into hibernation.  It's funny how that works huh.  He has even been on the team longer than Richardson... OK I'm on it, time to make a bash Werner thread lol

 

Why would they?  Werner is a good player who shows promise.

 

Trent Richardson, on the other hand, simply isn't good at football, and would be outperformed by any of a few dozen rb's that are on various practice squads throughout the league.

[MacDee1975]

Werner is average at everything in this 3-4 D...he was effective as a DE with his hand in the dirt in college.

Coach Chuck gets his man again...I wish Chuck knew what he was doing. 

And we can't blame Grigson for Werner...Chuck would have the major say on D players.

 

What do you mean?  He's real good at clapping his hands and pumping his fists at the same time.

 

Pagano doesn't strike me as someone who possesses a high football IQ at all.  Kind of like when IU employed Mike Davis the village * as their basketball coach.  The one thing Pagano was supposed to be good at, coaching defense, is a complete pile of garbage, so i'm not exactly sure what this guy brings to the table.

[Jason_]

Yeah he is. Statistically the worst starter.

 

cite all the stats you want.  He's not awful.  

[Jason_]

What do you mean?  He's real good at clapping his hands and pumping his fists at the same time.

 

Pagano doesn't strike me as someone who possesses a high football IQ at all.  Kind of like when IU employed Mike Davis the village * as their basketball coach.  The one thing Pagano was supposed to be good at, coaching defense, is a complete pile of garbage, so i'm not exactly sure what this guy brings to the table.

 

the 2012 saint's defense was hot pile of garbage, as was the 2013 dallas defense.  the current colt defense is not even close to that.

[Dustin]

cite all the stats you want. He's not awful.

*I don't care what evidence says*

Don't be that guy.

[Jason_]

*I don't care what evidence says*

Don't be that guy.

 

1. stats don't always tell the whole story.  

 

2. your stats simply say he was the worst of the starting 34 edge rushers in the league.  there are still backups for each of those guys and unsigned guys who are far worse.  Werner's not even the worst edge rusher on the Colts.  so if Werner is "awful", what adjective would you use to describe those other guys?  

 

3. again, I'm not saying he's been great, but I do think he's been better than stats would indicate.  that's why I disagree with your hyperbolic use of the word awful. There is a middle ground between good and awful and Werner falls somewhere in that range. 

[krunk]

I don't care what round a player is drafted in, it's all based on what the player did versus College competition.

There are no guarantees that will translate over into the pros. Nor is there a guarantee what year that player

makes a successful transition into the pros. 

 

I think we have to remember here that Werner is a 2nd year player.  It's too early to be calling him a bust and

all of these negative type of labels. When somebody invests a high round draft pick on you, there is an expect-

tation that you will make this big contribution right away, but in my mind (using an analogy) you can invest whatever

amount you want to in an egg but you can't force what time the bird hatches.

 

It's obvious Werner is still developing, and has not hatched into exactly what everyone wanted but it's still not time

to declare that nothing is coming out.  Maybe there are signs that he may not be the next Freeney, but will you be

mad if he turns into a Pro Bowler as a Sam linebacker or some other position?  Give the staff sometime to continue

working with this kid, he's got something somewhere in there I believe.

[Dustin]

1. stats don't always tell the whole story.  

 

 

They do in this case.

 

 

2. your stats simply say he was the worst of the starting 34 edge rushers in the league.  there are still backups for each of those guys and unsigned guys who are far worse. 

 

 

Wow, he's better than a bunch of unsigned guys. Setting the bar high here I see.

 

 

And even expand the list to players who have even taken a snap this year, he's still near the bottom of the list.  There are plenty of backups who are better than him. 

 

 

Werner's not even the worst edge rusher on the Colts.  

 

Yeah he's a tiny bit better than Studebaker.

 

so if Werner is "awful", what adjective would you use to describe those other guys?  

 

 

Awful as well.

 

 

3. There is a middle ground between good and awful and Werner falls somewhere in between.

 

No he doesn't. He's really bad. No objective person thinks Werner is anything other than a bad pass rusher. 

[Jason_]

 

They do in this case.

 

 

 

Wow, he's better than a bunch of unsigned guys. Setting the bar high here I see.

 

 

And even expand the list to players who have even taken a snap this year, he's still near the bottom of the list.  There are plenty of backups who are better than him. 

 

 

 

Yeah he's a tiny bit better than Studebaker.

 

 

 

Awful as well.

 

 

 

No he doesn't. He's really bad. No objective person thinks Werner is anything other than a bad pass rusher. 

 

 

what a bunch of nonsense. let me guess, you wanted Xavier Rhodes in that draft? ;)

[Surge89]

What's the obsession with an elite pass rusher? A good Dline with play making speed ILB will get just as many sacks as a top notch pass rusher. Imo of course but the top tier defenses had an elite middle and the outside benifits from it. Put Werner at Sam and Walden the opposite with Newsome rotating and I'd say that's more than viable. The issue is and has been the middle of the D is swiss cheese. Invest in a playmaking ILB and Freeman can play the other and this defense changes dramatically.

You know why for years we had an elite pass rushing duo in Freeney and Mathis yet still had a putrid defense? Because for almost a decade now our Inside has been awful. Look at the Patriots that defense is again top tier and a major factor of that is they have a duo inside that can do literally everything. They don't have to worry about having a pass rusher because the coverage plus Dline push makes offenses ineffective. And that's kind of the point as a defense... focusing on everything but the lines... the usual in Indianapolis

[Dustin]

what a bunch of nonsense. let me guess, you wanted Xavier Rhodes in that draft? ;)

Nope. I wanted Keenan Allen.

[Superman]

What's the obsession with an elite pass rusher? A good Dline with play making speed ILB will get just as many sacks as a top notch pass rusher. Imo of course but the top tier defenses had an elite middle and the outside benifits from it. Put Werner at Sam and Walden the opposite with Newsome rotating and I'd say that's more than viable. The issue is and has been the middle of the D is swiss cheese. Invest in a playmaking ILB and Freeman can play the other and this defense changes dramatically.

You know why for years we had an elite pass rushing duo in Freeney and Mathis yet still had a putrid defense? Because for almost a decade now our Inside has been awful. Look at the Patriots that defense is again top tier and a major factor of that is they have a duo inside that can do literally everything. They don't have to worry about having a pass rusher because the coverage plus Dline push makes offenses ineffective. And that's kind of the point as a defense... focusing on everything but the lines... the usual in Indianapolis

 

What you say about the interior of the defense is true. What I don't understand is the disdain for an elite pass rusher.

[Surge89]

What you say about the interior of the defense is true. What I don't understand is the disdain for an elite pass rusher.

It's simple most defenses that have an elite rusher usually has amazing sack numbers but less than stellar offenses or unbalanced rosters with no depth. Most pass rushers or high sack total players are born from a solid defense stopping the run and a product of a functional defense.

Imo of course pass rush is necessary but is extremely easily manufactured when you have control over the line of scrimmage. Depending on a star rusher to "just rush the passer" is a terrible concept to base a defense on and is a main reason why the defenses in the Manning era were trash.

Depending on a player, first gives an easy focal point to beat a defense, second usually leaves huge liabilities elsewhere in which other players then must be outstanding to compensate, which leads to lack of depth to acquire such talent. Just a bad defensive philosophy period. I'd rather have a balanced roster and stop the run. Look at the Patriot defenses. No single pass rusher but a unit that dominates the line of scrimmage and good coverage. Same as in early 2000's and recently. Look at the early 2000's Ravens solid up the middle and a turnstile on the outside. Steelers? Casey Hampton, Farrior, Timmons, Smith nothing but line talent and Linebackers and Safety's. Everyone gets upsessed with a single name but those usually don't help your roster unless they are JJ Watt level of talent. Recent example being James Harrison from the Steelers. Great rusher due to an outstanding line. Goes elsewhere and fizzles out then comes back to Pitt when they acquire Tuitt and Spence who can stop the run and he again is getting sacks... @ 35+ years old!!!

[Superman]

It's simple most defenses that have an elite rusher usually has amazing sack numbers but less than stellar offenses or unbalanced rosters with no depth. Most pass rushers or high sack total players are born from a solid defense stopping the run and a product of a functional defense.

Imo of course pass rush is necessary but is extremely easily manufactured when you have control over the line of scrimmage. Depending on a star rusher to "just rush the passer" is a terrible concept to base a defense on and is a main reason why the defenses in the Manning era were trash.

Depending on a player, first gives an easy focal point to beat a defense, second usually leaves huge liabilities elsewhere in which other players then must be outstanding to compensate, which leads to lack of depth to acquire such talent. Just a bad defensive philosophy period. I'd rather have a balanced roster and stop the run. Look at the Patriot defenses. No single pass rusher but a unit that dominates the line of scrimmage and good coverage. Same as in early 2000's and recently. Look at the early 2000's Ravens solid up the middle and a turnstile on the outside. Steelers? Casey Hampton, Farrior, Timmons, Smith nothing but line talent and Linebackers and Safety's. Everyone gets upsessed with a single name but those usually don't help your roster unless they are JJ Watt level of talent. Recent example being James Harrison from the Steelers. Great rusher due to an outstanding line. Goes elsewhere and fizzles out then comes back to Pitt when they acquire Tuitt and Spence who can stop the run and he again is getting sacks... @ 35+ years old!!!

 

You're making a particular assumption that I don't agree with. Just because you have a great pass rusher doesn't mean that player does nothing but rush the passer. You keep bringing up the old Colts defense, and this defense couldn't be more different.

 

You mentioned the Ravens. Terrell Suggs is a really good pass rusher. So is Dumervil. They are both responsible for run containment, whether they're on the weak side or the strong side. And they're both good at it.

 

The desire to have a great pass rusher doesn't require any scheme changes. It simply adds a great player to the defensive front, someone who can beat blockers one on one and pressure the QB. You're acting like a great pass rusher weakens your front, and that's not true. The staff has paid plenty of attention to stiffening the interior of the defense, and for the most part, it's paid off.  

[ColtStronger]

how has Walden been a disappointment?

Not really a huge disappointment, but does just enough it seems like Bjoern.  Although it's a bad measuring stick but, Colts are used to having at least 1 dominant pass rusher.  If a rookie who doesn't get majority snaps gets as many or more sacks, that is a problem.  He has been suspended (which I don't necessarily agree with for touching a ref), and head butting a player.  He only has 37 combined tackles on the season.  In a 3-4 scheme the LB's are expected to play a bigger role, and I just don't see that happening with any of our current LB's.  Certainly nothing to say he is doing a good job!  Jerrell has been good in the past, but I haven't really looked into much of what he's done this year.  DQ is up and down.  I see him make some decent plays but also totally blow coverage, or miss important tackles.  My point about Newsome isn't saying he is something spectacular, but if he's a rookie and makes game changing plays, then why aren't our other LB's producing? 

[ColtStronger]

I don't agree with your summation of Werner as a player. And even if I did, every team needs that kind of player. You said earlier that this wasn't about picking on him, but it seems like you just don't like him, and that's your prerogative, but your categorization of him is way off, IMO.

 

I don't agree with your assessment of Walden as a disappointment. I was hoping we were collectively beyond the "Walden isn't good" era. Not a great pass rusher, but he had a career high in sacks this season, and he was strong against the run, and he was sufficient in coverage. The only way anyone should be disappointed in Walden is if they expected him to be a top notch pass rusher.

 

As for wishing for a dominant pass rusher, umm, don't we all? I don't know what to say about Mathis, but we need to add pass rushers as often as possible.

I don't know why you and Jason think I don't like Werner and Walden?  I'm just saying they underperform, especially in a time of need!!  That's not kosher, for a good team trying to make a playoff run...  I realize that Werner and Newsome play different, and have different strengths at the LB position, and Walden, Jerrell, DQ, or any other LB for that matter, but you're reading me wrong.  I'm only criticizing because (fair or not) a rookie has had "bigger plays" than Walden or Werner with way less snaps.  I never expected Werner or Walden were 15+ sack guy like Freeney or Mathis, but that's the footsteps they follow, and it may be a bad measuring stick, but doesn't matter how you cut it, they're underachieving just like the rest of the LB corp.  If you have the attitude that they're just fine then that's your opinion, just like I have mine.

[Superman]

Not really a huge disappointment, but does just enough it seems like Bjoern.  Although it's a bad measuring stick but, Colts are used to having at least 1 dominant pass rusher.  If a rookie who doesn't get majority snaps gets as many or more sacks, that is a problem.  He has been suspended (which I don't necessarily agree with for touching a ref), and head butting a player.  He only has 37 combined tackles on the season.  In a 3-4 scheme the LB's are expected to play a bigger role, and I just don't see that happening with any of our current LB's.  Certainly nothing to say he is doing a good job!  Jerrell has been good in the past, but I haven't really looked into much of what he's done this year.  DQ is up and down.  I see him make some decent plays but also totally blow coverage, or miss important tackles.  My point about Newsome isn't saying he is something spectacular, but if he's a rookie and makes game changing plays, then why aren't our other LB's producing? 

 

I don't understand why people keep bringing up tackle numbers in reference to our defensive front. That's one of the worst ways to judge the performance of any defensive player. Elvis Dumervil only had 37 tackles this season. 

 

There are two reasons Newsome led the team in sacks: 1) He's a better pass rusher than anyone else on the team right now, so credit to him; and 2) he was primarily used as a pass rush specialist. He's not good at containing the run, and he's not good at playing in space, so the team told him to go get the QB and don't worry about anything else. 

 

None of that means that Werner or Walden weren't doing their jobs. They were. Neither of them are particularly impressive pass rushers (although Walden was better this year than last, and Werner had some bright spots), but that doesn't mean they're just doing enough to get by. 

[Superman]

I don't know why you and Jason think I don't like Werner and Walden?  I'm just saying they underperform, especially in a time of need!!  That's not kosher, for a good team trying to make a playoff run...  I realize that Werner and Newsome play different, and have different strengths at the LB position, and Walden, Jerrell, DQ, or any other LB for that matter, but you're reading me wrong.  I'm only criticizing because (fair or not) a rookie has had "bigger plays" than Walden or Werner with way less snaps.  I never expected Werner or Walden were 15+ sack guy like Freeney or Mathis, but that's the footsteps they follow, and it may be a bad measuring stick, but doesn't matter how you cut it, they're underachieving just like the rest of the LB corp.  If you have the attitude that they're just fine then that's your opinion, just like I have mine.

 

There are a lot of elements to play OLB in this defense. I'll agree that Werner underperformed this season as a pass rusher (I don't think Walden did at all, his six sacks is more than I expected, and is a career high), but that's only one aspect of his job. Werner was very good against the run most of the time, sometimes excellent, and showed great improvement in space. 

 

If you're going to judge those two based on just one element of their jobs, then we can say that Newsome was terrible because he's bad against the run and in space. That's a significant part of his job description, and he failed in those areas to a far greater degree than Werner came up short as a pass rusher. In reality, it makes no sense to judge any player only on one aspect of their job, ignoring the areas in which they excelled.

[ColtStronger]

Why would they?  Werner is a good player who shows promise.

 

Trent Richardson, on the other hand, simply isn't good at football, and would be outperformed by any of a few dozen rb's that are on various practice squads throughout the league.

I agree he has an upside, but we needed him to perform NOW!  Trent has an upside also, IF HE HAS AN O LINE!!  That is the harsh world of the NFL.  Just like Trent was expected to perform NOW.  Both 1st round picks.  Trent runs behind a HORRIBLE offensive line, but that is ignored.  Bjoern has a pretty solid 3 man front that does a decent job of clogging holes, to allow him to perform better.  At best he is average.  Nothing special, nothing terrible.  He doesn't kill us, but have you saw any 10+ tackle games?  Have you saw Werner lead the team in sacks consistently?  What about forcing fumbles?  NO!!  I don't know why people are defending him when he is an average LB, and him being a 1st rounder!!  All I'm saying is that a 1st rounder is EXPECTED to perform as soon as they come in, if given the opportunity.  He was given a year to learn his role, and now Mathis is out, it's put-up or shut-up.  Same thing with Trent, but nobody really got off his case when he had an 80 yard game, or a couple decent rushing days.  Translate that same mediocre performance to Werner, but all the sudden it's not that bad.  I just don't get it?

[ColtStronger]

I don't understand why people keep bringing up tackle numbers in reference to our defensive front. That's one of the worst ways to judge the performance of any defensive player. Elvis Dumervil only had 37 tackles this season. 

 

There are two reasons Newsome led the team in sacks: 1) He's a better pass rusher than anyone else on the team right now, so credit to him; and 2) he was primarily used as a pass rush specialist. He's not good at containing the run, and he's not good at playing in space, so the team told him to go get the QB and don't worry about anything else. 

 

None of that means that Werner or Walden weren't doing their jobs. They were. Neither of them are particularly impressive pass rushers (although Walden was better this year than last, and Werner had some bright spots), but that doesn't mean they're just doing enough to get by. 

Were both arguing our points w an opinion basis.  I understand that tackle numbers isn't a great way to critique a LB, because they're presence alone can cause a disruption, drawing extra attention and help somebody else out.  Like I pointed out, Newsome only rushes the passer, but he also gets to the QB, puts the opposing offense long down situation, or strips the football, causes a lot of pressure even when he doesn't sack the QB, he even returned a fumble for a TD.  That changes the game.  Although Werner and Walden both have sacks and done that, it's not their strength I get that.  Have they made enough big plays though?  Only being a solid player making tackles when needed, still allows the offense to continue to move the ball downfield.  Pass coverage for our LB's is bad overall, since Newsome is strictly pass rusher, he isn't in there most of the time for coverage or run support.  Collectively our rushing defense isn't superb either, they normally bend but don't break.  How does that really standout?  How is that satisfactory?  That doesn't shutdown opposing offenses, but allows for opportunity to capitalize later.

[Gavin]

Not really a huge disappointment, but does just enough it seems like Bjoern.  Although it's a bad measuring stick but, Colts are used to having at least 1 dominant pass rusher.  If a rookie who doesn't get majority snaps gets as many or more sacks, that is a problem.  He has been suspended (which I don't necessarily agree with for touching a ref), and head butting a player.  He only has 37 combined tackles on the season.  In a 3-4 scheme the LB's are expected to play a bigger role, and I just don't see that happening with any of our current LB's.  Certainly nothing to say he is doing a good job!  Jerrell has been good in the past, but I haven't really looked into much of what he's done this year.  DQ is up and down.  I see him make some decent plays but also totally blow coverage, or miss important tackles.  My point about Newsome isn't saying he is something spectacular, but if he's a rookie and makes game changing plays, then why aren't our other LB's producing? 

What do our other LB's have to do with Newsome?...Our other LB's are not Newsome.......Werner just don't have the acceleration off the ball as Newsome and really neither does Walden...That's a huge reason why they have not had a big impact in pass rushing ....Though both have improved and came close to more sacks at times. I kinda think Werner is closer to the Jason Babin type Linebacker/DE or Ryan Kerrigan or even a Chris Long who has also been used as both DE and Linebacker ...Werner may have a big year or two someday as a pass rusher like Babin did in 2011 or Long or Kerrigan...But those players are much better ALL AROUND Linebackers/DE's then pure pass rushers

 

As to Freeman, He has been fighting and playing through injuries all year and his production has suffered because of it so his production this year cant really be taken to serious because coaches know when healthy history shows he is almost twice as productive

 

I use the .... because I find it easier to read if I space my thoughts and not having to read some long drawn out paragraphs. Just seems more clear to me

[Superman]

Were both arguing our points w an opinion basis.  I understand that tackle numbers isn't a great way to critique a LB, because they're presence alone can cause a disruption, drawing extra attention and help somebody else out.  Like I pointed out, Newsome only rushes the passer, but he also gets to the QB, puts the opposing offense long down situation, or strips the football, causes a lot of pressure even when he doesn't sack the QB, he even returned a fumble for a TD.  That changes the game.  Although Werner and Walden both have sacks and done that, it's not their strength I get that.  Have they made enough big plays though?  Only being a solid player making tackles when needed, still allows the offense to continue to move the ball downfield.  Pass coverage for our LB's is bad overall, since Newsome is strictly pass rusher, he isn't in there most of the time for coverage or run support.  Collectively our rushing defense isn't superb either, they normally bend but don't break.  How does that really standout?  How is that satisfactory?  That doesn't shutdown opposing offenses, but allows for opportunity to capitalize later.

 

I don't think it's opinion to say that tackles is a terrible metric for grading a defensive player.

 

If you simply said you think Newsome is a better playmaker, we'd have little disagreement. It's his playmaking ability that has earned me as a fan. But that's not what you said.

 

Also, the pass coverage for our OLBs is very distinct from that of our ILBs. The only OLB who is poor in pass coverage is Newsome. Same thing for run defense (which I probably think more highly of than you do), just because we've given up plays doesn't mean that the OLBs aren't doing their job containing the run. The only OLB who is consistently poor at run containment is Newsome. 

 

What I disagree with is idea that because Werner and Walden aren't great pass rushers that it means they aren't good players, or that they need to be bashed, as you suggested. The first post I responded to was you asking why Werner doesn't get the Richardson treatment, and again, the answer is that he is actually a good player. Not being a good pass rusher and not being a good draft pick doesn't mean he's not a good player, and it certainly doesn't mean he should be bashed.