in order to compete we need to..........

[ColtStronger]

There are a lot of elements to play OLB in this defense. I'll agree that Werner underperformed this season as a pass rusher (I don't think Walden did at all, his six sacks is more than I expected, and is a career high), but that's only one aspect of his job. Werner was very good against the run most of the time, sometimes excellent, and showed great improvement in space. 

 

If you're going to judge those two based on just one element of their jobs, then we can say that Newsome was terrible because he's bad against the run and in space. That's a significant part of his job description, and he failed in those areas to a far greater degree than Werner came up short as a pass rusher. In reality, it makes no sense to judge any player only on one aspect of their job, ignoring the areas in which they excelled.

This whole debate sprung out from a sarcastic statement I made, and you're putting too much thought into it.  I responded to somebody explaining how it was nonsense for people to criticize Richardson so harshly, when Werner (being a 1st round pick, and not producing immediately) doesn't get the hate.  I made a point that Newsome is a rookie and I was comparing his contributions at his strengths (it wasn't said, but my thought process when the debate started) as a pass rusher to Werner being a pass rusher.  Walden got brought into it as a comparison to Werner. 

 

Either way it's all nonsense.  I'm not trying to get people to not like Werner or Walden.  I don't hate them either!  I just found the whole situation ironic because there was a similarity of Richardson and Werner being 1st round picks, and IMO both underachieving, but not given the same treatment.  I was thinking from the standpoint that Richardson has a horrible offensive line and can't get the job done, and that's not okay, but Werner, having a solid 3 man front, still doesn't WOW me, and that's okay, by most people.  I realize they play different positions with a different group of guys, and you can't compare stats or importance of the players in that aspect.  Not trying to argue...

[ColtStronger]

What do our other LB's have to do with Newsome?...Our other LB's are not Newsome.......Werner just don't have the acceleration off the ball as Newsome and really neither does Walden...That's a huge reason why they have not had a big impact in pass rushing ....Though both have improved and came close to more sacks at times. I kinda think Werner is closer to the Jason Babin type Linebacker/DE or Ryan Kerrigan or even a Chris Long who has also been used as both DE and Linebacker ...Werner may have a big year or two someday as a pass rusher like Babin did in 2011 or Long or Kerrigan...But those players are much better ALL AROUND Linebackers/DE's then pure pass rushers

 

As to Freeman, He has been fighting and playing through injuries all year and his production has suffered because of it so his production this year cant really be taken to serious because coaches know when healthy history shows he is almost twice as productive

 

I use the .... because I find it easier to read if I space my thoughts and not having to read some long drawn out paragraphs. Just seems more clear to me

Yes, sometimes I have problems having everything bunched together.  I was comparing Newsome to others in the aspect of pass rushing.  I understand that is all of Newsomes game, and Werner is much better all around, but it seems like we have a handful of decent "all around guys".  If Newsome was an every down LB he would be a liability in coverage or run stopping, but wasn't Freeney?  Jerrell has been injured and played just as good as any other LB.  He has done a lot for this team since he joined the Colts organization.  I don't have any real complaints about him especially because playing through injuries. 

 

On the other hand if you think Werner's production is satisfactory you must also think DQ's coverage is acceptable too.  Same with Walden.  Newsome is a rookie 5th round pick, he doesn't have the same expectations that Werner Walden Freeman and DQ have, so IDK Y people are acting that way.   Playing okay is good enough, I guess.  Same with Walden.  No I don't expect the world out of these players, but for God's sake would people quit defending them, because they're nothing special.  You guys need to forget about that... Our O Line is a little worse, and there's a huge problem there.  If you think we will win a SB with our current LB corp or offensive line then I think you're wrong.  That's all I'm saying!  Everybody is disagreeing with me for holding a certain POV, but trying to prove I'm wrong based off opinions.  LB's are a weak link on our team, as is Trent and our whole O line minus Castonzo.  I can't help if anybody thinks otherwise.

[ColtStronger]

I don't think it's opinion to say that tackles is a terrible metric for grading a defensive player.

 

If you simply said you think Newsome is a better playmaker, we'd have little disagreement. It's his playmaking ability that has earned me as a fan. But that's not what you said.

 

Also, the pass coverage for our OLBs is very distinct from that of our ILBs. The only OLB who is poor in pass coverage is Newsome. Same thing for run defense (which I probably think more highly of than you do), just because we've given up plays doesn't mean that the OLBs aren't doing their job containing the run. The only OLB who is consistently poor at run containment is Newsome. 

 

What I disagree with is idea that because Werner and Walden aren't great pass rushers that it means they aren't good players, or that they need to be bashed, as you suggested. The first post I responded to was you asking why Werner doesn't get the Richardson treatment, and again, the answer is that he is actually a good player. Not being a good pass rusher and not being a good draft pick doesn't mean he's not a good player, and it certainly doesn't mean he should be bashed.

That was practically what I meant, but didn't really come out and say it.  Also Newsome is a 5th round pick as a rookie, unlike the rest of our LB corp.  Jerrell came from another league and has played a huge role for us, despite this season, not being at his best due to injuries. 

 

What I am trying to explain w/o as many words Newsome is better at pass rushing (his strength, and given experience) than Werner being the "all around" player he is.  The bashing statement was purely sarcastic.  I don't want to see any of our players being bashed on here.  I'm a fan of the Colts.  I don't pick players to hate on, but do have favorite players.

[Surge89]

You're making a particular assumption that I don't agree with. Just because you have a great pass rusher doesn't mean that player does nothing but rush the passer. You keep bringing up the old Colts defense, and this defense couldn't be more different.

You mentioned the Ravens. Terrell Suggs is a really good pass rusher. So is Dumervil. They are both responsible for run containment, whether they're on the weak side or the strong side. And they're both good at it.

The desire to have a great pass rusher doesn't require any scheme changes. It simply adds a great player to the defensive front, someone who can beat blockers one on one and pressure the QB. You're acting like a great pass rusher weakens your front, and that's not true. The staff has paid plenty of attention to stiffening the interior of the defense, and for the most part, it's paid off.

No that is not what I'm saying. My presumption that 70% of the time if you have an edge presence you have nothing up the middle which is much more important. Dumervil and Suggs while good rushers aren't elite by any means and are more of an all around LB like what we have. Dumervil compares to Newsome while Werner could very well develop into a Suggs like player in coming years. But what really gets the going? Ngata and the depth on their Dline with Lewis to Mosley on the inside stopping the run and making plays.

Also I'm not comparing our defense as of now to the old colts defense I'm comparing everyone's call for a premier rusher like the old Colts D and giving supporting evidence that (especially in this D) a premier rusher isn't necessary.

A great rusher rushes the QB yea, but literally takes care of one small part of the Defense. It doesn't weaken your front but is much less effecient than having a strong middle that stops the run and pushes a pocket backwards. And that is so much more important than sacks. I'll take 3 QB throwaways than a sack and giving up a 1st down and they continue the drive.

Also may I ask what have the coaches done to shore up the middle? What RB have we stopped this year? When we play teams with a QB we get torn up from the ground up by the RB because we can't pile 9 defenders inside. Grant it it's not the coach's fault that they have almost nothing to work with this year as far as ILB or Safety's but that's another conversation.

[peytonmanning18]

There's nothing the team needs to do, if us fans just "believe" really really hard, we will win

[Gavin]

Yes, sometimes I have problems having everything bunched together.  I was comparing Newsome to others in the aspect of pass rushing.  I understand that is all of Newsomes game, and Werner is much better all around, but it seems like we have a handful of decent "all around guys".  If Newsome was an every down LB he would be a liability in coverage or run stopping, but wasn't Freeney?  Jerrell has been injured and played just as good as any other LB.  He has done a lot for this team since he joined the Colts organization.  I don't have any real complaints about him especially because playing through injuries. 

 

On the other hand if you think Werner's production is satisfactory you must also think DQ's coverage is acceptable too.  Same with Walden.  Newsome is a rookie 5th round pick, he doesn't have the same expectations that Werner Walden Freeman and DQ have, so IDK Y people are acting that way.   Playing okay is good enough, I guess.  Same with Walden.  No I don't expect the world out of these players, but for God's sake would people quit defending them, because they're nothing special.  You guys need to forget about that... Our O Line is a little worse, and there's a huge problem there.  If you think we will win a SB with our current LB corp or offensive line then I think you're wrong.  That's all I'm saying!  Everybody is disagreeing with me for holding a certain POV, but trying to prove I'm wrong based off opinions.  LB's are a weak link on our team, as is Trent and our whole O line minus Castonzo.  I can't help if anybody thinks otherwise.

I don't think anyone with a brain in there skull thinks this O Line has been very good....especially run blocking. I also think we need another rush linebacker.....No I expect a bit more from Werner this year....I was hoping for 6 sacks, I don't think he will be what Freeney and Mathis were as pass rushers....consistently anyway....I also don't get the connection between D Jackson and Werner....two different positions........Freeman has averaged 136 tackles a game his first two years....He only had 94 this year....that's 41 less then his average.......He also missed 4 games

[James Harden]

There's nothing the team needs to do, if us fans just "believe" really really hard, we will win

I BELIEVE THAT WE WILL WIN!

[Gavin]

I don't think anyone with a brain in there skull thinks this O Line has been very good....especially run blocking. I also think we need another rush linebacker.....No I expect a bit more from Werner this year....I was hoping for 6 sacks, I don't think he will be what Freeney and Mathis were as pass rushers....consistently anyway....I also don't get the connection between D Jackson and Werner....two different positions........Freeman has averaged 136 tackles a game his first two years....He only had 94 this year....that's 41 less then his average.......He also missed 4 games

;) I mean 136 tackles a season...oops

[Fire Pagano]

We need to fire pagano to win. The guy is a joke. Brilliant defense tactician and all but... oh yeah never mind.. Luck is the only legit reason he hasnt been canned. And irsay doesnt want to look bad for firing someone who had cancer right away.

[mintor]

1. Cut/bench Lance Louis

2. Get Doyle more involved in the te rotation

3.run to the left!!!!!!

4.give A. Jackson the majority of the passing down reps

5. Play press man

6.create packages for Cribbs (nows the time to do it)

7.be INTELLIGENTLY aggressive

8. Play Sergio deep on passing downs/use Landry to blitz

9.catch the freaking football! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

10. Let Andrew run the ball (read option)

 

12 , run the dang ball better.

[mintor]

I agree he has an upside, but we needed him to perform NOW!  Trent has an upside also, IF HE HAS AN O LINE!!  That is the harsh world of the NFL.  Just like Trent was expected to perform NOW.  Both 1st round picks.  Trent runs behind a HORRIBLE offensive line, but that is ignored.  Bjoern has a pretty solid 3 man front that does a decent job of clogging holes, to allow him to perform better.  At best he is average.  Nothing special, nothing terrible.  He doesn't kill us, but have you saw any 10+ tackle games?  Have you saw Werner lead the team in sacks consistently?  What about forcing fumbles?  NO!!  I don't know why people are defending him when he is an average LB, and him being a 1st rounder!!  All I'm saying is that a 1st rounder is EXPECTED to perform as soon as they come in, if given the opportunity.  He was given a year to learn his role, and now Mathis is out, it's put-up or shut-up.  Same thing with Trent, but nobody really got off his case when he had an 80 yard game, or a couple decent rushing days.  Translate that same mediocre performance to Werner, but all the sudden it's not that bad.  I just don't get it?

 

 

thats why you never pick rb,s and pass rushers in first round.  better chance with o'linemen.wr,s some degree qb,s

[corgi]

We need to fire pagano to win. The guy is a joke. Brilliant defense tactician and all but... oh yeah never mind.. Luck is the only legit reason he hasnt been canned. And irsay doesnt want to look bad for firing someone who had cancer right away.

That and 33 regular season wins in 3 year isn't bad at all. If Irsay thought he wasn't right for the job he would can him. He had cancer, he doesn't currently have cancer. I don't think you can use that as a get out of jail free card. If you don't want to count his first year that's fine. 22 regular season wins, AFC South Champions, a playoff win, in 2 years. I don't think he's the greatest ever, but your choice of adjective is questionable.

[GoColts8818]

We need to fire pagano to win. The guy is a joke. Brilliant defense tactician and all but... oh yeah never mind.. Luck is the only legit reason he hasnt been canned. And irsay doesnt want to look bad for firing someone who had cancer right away.

winning 70% of his games two straight divison titles, a playoff game, and having the 2-14 team he took over make the playoffs all three years he's been coach might have a little something to do with it too.

[Jason_]

thats why you never pick rb,s and pass rushers in first round.  better chance with o'linemen.wr,s some degree qb,s

 

never draft pass rushers in the first round??  well that's just stupid

[SteelCityColt]

thats why you never pick rb,s and pass rushers in first round. better chance with o'linemen.wr,s some degree qb,s

RBs fair enough, but premier pass rushers? Those guys ain't dropping out the first normally.

[ColtStronger]

I don't think anyone with a brain in there skull thinks this O Line has been very good....especially run blocking. I also think we need another rush linebacker.....No I expect a bit more from Werner this year....I was hoping for 6 sacks, I don't think he will be what Freeney and Mathis were as pass rushers....consistently anyway....I also don't get the connection between D Jackson and Werner....two different positions........Freeman has averaged 136 tackles a game his first two years....He only had 94 this year....that's 41 less then his average.......He also missed 4 games

I don't expect Werner to be as good as Mathis or Freeney at pass rush either, but I did think he would certainly have in the 6-10 range.  I wasn't comparing Werner to DQ, but he was added to the conversation because I don't think Werner or Jackson are as good as they should be in coverage either.  I don't see Werner in coverage often at all, but then again I don't really watch that.  Jackson is okay, but not exactly what I had in mind at the time of the signing.

 

Freeman can be left off the hook because of missed time and a nagging injury, otherwise he would be the solid player we've saw in the past.  IMO he is our best all around LB and Newsome is our best pass rusher.  That is pretty much what stemmed the earlier debate.  I made a sarcastic remark about bashing Werner.  I don't think anybody would really disagree that somebody picked in the 1st round should be outperformed by a CFL recruit or a 5th rounder.  I understand the pass rushing isn't Werner's niche, but I don't think he is the best coverage LB on our team (Freeman), nor is he the best run stopper (Freeman), so my arguement was that he does deserve criticism (not bashing), which doesn't really happen, but most fans are surely quick to let loose on other players, that is unjustified!

[ColtStronger]

thats why you never pick rb,s and pass rushers in first round.  better chance with o'linemen.wr,s some degree qb,s

I agree for the most part.  It's difficult to say a RB is going to be great moving forward from the draft, whereas it's a lot easier for scouts to be correct with the talent of a G or T.  QB's generally aren't to hard to critique either, but it seems that most teams will stretch for that top couple QB's because they are always hoping it turns out okay.  It's wishful thinking in my book, but generally I can tell if a QB will be a legitimate contender later in his career, and I'm not even a scout. 

 

That's why I think we should trade up in this years draft to get a top 10 pick to secure a great C RG or RT to end all of these experimental plugins that has plagued the Colts all year long.  It seems Castonzo and Mewhort will be fine for the left, but C and the right side leaves a burning question.  Cherilus is up in the air, but I think we should keep him, because he usually is solid, but has been dealing with injury most of the season.  The Shipley, Harrison, Holmes mess at C should be cleaned up by showing them all the bench, because if none of them have emerged yet, I think the waiting game should be over, and get somebody who WILL get the job done, at a satisfactory levewl.  Holmes could pan out for RG but there is still much to be desired. 

 

Going into next season, I would (as would every other fan) like this offensive line project to be complete, and headed in a certain direction, because all they've done for the last 3 seasons is jog in place, patching holes when needed.

[BOTT]

thats why you never pick rb,s and pass rushers in first round.  better chance with o'linemen.wr,s some degree qb,s

What? Lol

[Superman]

No that is not what I'm saying. My presumption that 70% of the time if you have an edge presence you have nothing up the middle which is much more important. Dumervil and Suggs while good rushers aren't elite by any means and are more of an all around LB like what we have. Dumervil compares to Newsome while Werner could very well develop into a Suggs like player in coming years. But what really gets the going? Ngata and the depth on their Dline with Lewis to Mosley on the inside stopping the run and making plays.

Also I'm not comparing our defense as of now to the old colts defense I'm comparing everyone's call for a premier rusher like the old Colts D and giving supporting evidence that (especially in this D) a premier rusher isn't necessary.

A great rusher rushes the QB yea, but literally takes care of one small part of the Defense. It doesn't weaken your front but is much less effecient than having a strong middle that stops the run and pushes a pocket backwards. And that is so much more important than sacks. I'll take 3 QB throwaways than a sack and giving up a 1st down and they continue the drive.

Also may I ask what have the coaches done to shore up the middle? What RB have we stopped this year? When we play teams with a QB we get torn up from the ground up by the RB because we can't pile 9 defenders inside. Grant it it's not the coach's fault that they have almost nothing to work with this year as far as ILB or Safety's but that's another conversation.

 

I disagree with that presumption. 

 

And the defense has stopped pretty much every running back up the middle this season. The only teams that really ran on us were the Pats and the Texans. Anyone else had only volume production, or a couple of quarterbacks who ran some read option. 

[sundance75]

I agree for the most part.  It's difficult to say a RB is going to be great moving forward from the draft, whereas it's a lot easier for scouts to be correct with the talent of a G or T.  QB's generally aren't to hard to critique either, but it seems that most teams will stretch for that top couple QB's because they are always hoping it turns out okay.  It's wishful thinking in my book, but generally I can tell if a QB will be a legitimate contender later in his career, and I'm not even a scout. 

 

That's why I think we should trade up in this years draft to get a top 10 pick to secure a great C RG or RT to end all of these experimental plugins that has plagued the Colts all year long.  It seems Castonzo and Mewhort will be fine for the left, but C and the right side leaves a burning question.  Cherilus is up in the air, but I think we should keep him, because he usually is solid, but has been dealing with injury most of the season.  The Shipley, Harrison, Holmes mess at C should be cleaned up by showing them all the bench, because if none of them have emerged yet, I think the waiting game should be over, and get somebody who WILL get the job done, at a satisfactory levewl.  Holmes could pan out for RG but there is still much to be desired. 

 

Going into next season, I would (as would every other fan) like this offensive line project to be complete, and headed in a certain direction, because all they've done for the last 3 seasons is jog in place, patching holes when needed.

Did you ever think it just might be the coaches!  Who does what they have done?  Shipley was doing great by all accounts, but they wanted the guy they brought in to play Center whether he could play it or not!  Things were going good at the beginning of the year and had they left it alone the line would have been great by now!

[Surge89]

I disagree with that presumption.

And the defense has stopped pretty much every running back up the middle this season. The only teams that really ran on us were the Pats and the Texans. Anyone else had only volume production, or a couple of quarterbacks who ran some read option.

Agree to disagree :-).

I addressed your 2nd part though. Yes we stopped people but anytime we faced a legit passing threat it crumbled.

[Superman]

Agree to disagree :-).

I addressed your 2nd part though. Yes we stopped people but anytime we faced a legit passing threat it crumbled.

Leveon Bell was held in check, despite 24 rushing attempts. The Broncos couldn't run the ball in the opener.

Whether we faced a good passing attack didn't really have anything to do with whether the run defense held up. The run defense has been better this year, by pretty much every metric. Not great, but my initial comment was that the middle of the defense has been better against the run. Aside from Pats game and the two Texans games, that's true. It will continue to get better.

And back to the original point, there's simply no reason a team can't have a dominant edge rusher and be stout against the run. We're not going back to Dungy's defense, and that's very obvious by the fact that Grigson continues to bring in big bodies in the middle and how the coaches continue to scheme the defense in such a way to contain the edges and clog the middle. If we add a great pass rusher, he'll have to contain the run as a priority.

[ColtStronger]

Did you ever think it just might be the coaches!  Who does what they have done?  Shipley was doing great by all accounts, but they wanted the guy they brought in to play Center whether he could play it or not!  Things were going good at the beginning of the year and had they left it alone the line would have been great by now!

I disagree with the part that things would be fine now, but yes I blame the coaches and GM 110% of the O line problems.  Instead of drafting Werner or Moncrief, we should've been drafting OL to protect Luck.  Here;s a bonus question, what do most of the SB Champs the last decade have in common?  Answer: A strong O line.  Patriots?  Giants?  Pittsburg?  Green Bay?  All good O lines.  That's why I think Lucks potential is only begun to be shown.  His turnovers and mistakes would be cleaned up with a great OL, we could actually have a run game, and in return the defense would get worn down more, while keeping our defense fresh. 

 

Shipley is what he is.  Not bad, but nothing special at all!  Harrison and Holmes are young, but still haven't made it apparent they can get the job done.  My proposal in drafting football ready OL or bring in vets would solve the inexperienced problem.  Normally there is a few great OL early in the draft.  A simple swap of 1st round picks and an additional 3rd, would get us a great All American OL straight from college that could come in right away and make an impact. 

 

The only thing that really drives me nuts about Grigson is that he thinks he knows it all when it comes to O line.  Clearly in the 3 seasons he has been here, we merely jog in place in regards to the OL because he thinks Holmes or a young guy is "the guy of the future" and the staff are so persistent of making it work. 

[Colts1324]

1. Draft an offensive tackle in the first round and move him to guard. Sign a veteran center. OL will consist of:

Castonzo, Mewhort, ???, La'el Collins/Ronnie Stanley, Cherilus.

2. Draft a DT to help disrupt the middle. We have been missing this for a long time! I love Michael Bennett!

3. Second round tender Freeman. If we get a second... Use that second and a fourth/fifth to trade up for Benardrick McKinney depending on where he falls. He could very well be a DROY candidate if he starts for us next year!

3. Throw more slants and screens. Peyton and Marvin were practically unstoppable at this. We hardly ever use slants.

4. Hope Pep gets a HC job. Move up Chud to OC.

Fire the offensive line coach.

5. Draft a RB in the third. Take the cap hit and let T-Rich go. Sign C.J. Spiller. Spiller, Duke Johnson? Maybe?, and Vick Ballard/Boom Herron. That's a solid core!

6. Give Newsome more snaps. It's obvious this guy has a nose for the football. Mathis and Newsome would be a great combo IMO.

Btw this is my first post. But I have been reading forums for the last few years. So take it easy on me ;)