3 member appeals panel rejects Saints bounty suspensions and overturns them

[chad72]

http://tracking.si.c...er-suspensions/

[Indyfan4life]

What a joke. Wow.

[Gavin]

to be continued still

[chad72]

Ugly stuff is about to get uglier, IMO . Now, Goodell's hand will be forced to reveal his sources if this holds up.

I am sure the NFL is going to argue the merits of the panel to take up a lawsuit vs the NFL because that is the bigger Pandora's box they want to close. I am sure this case will come to the Supreme Court for a final decision and wont just go away with the lower courts. If the NFL appeals to the Supreme Court for a final verdict and the Supreme Court, based on the exemption status of the NFL, sides that an internal league matter cannot be tried in courts outside the confines of the NFL, then we are back to square one.

[Gavin]

Ugly stuff is about to get uglier, IMO . Now, Goodell's hand will be forced to reveal his sources if this holds up.

I am sure the NFL is going to argue the merits of the panel to take up a lawsuit vs the NFL because that is the bigger Pandora's box they want to close. I am sure this case will come to the Supreme Court for a final decision and wont just go away with the lower courts. If the NFL appeals to the Supreme Court for a final verdict and the Supreme Court, based on the exemption status of the NFL, sides that an internal league matter cannot be tried in courts outside the confines of the NFL, then we are back to square one.

he should have revealed them from the start, he is looking much worse then the Saints at this point in my opinion

[chad72]

he should have revealed them from the start, he is looking much worse then the Saints at this point in my opinion

He got away with destroying SpyGate tapes but however, they did not result in player suspensions. Now, he may have no other choice.

However, revealing the source will be the last option for Goodell, the NFL will continue to appeal till there is a verdict with the Supreme Court. I have a feeling it could be a written statement from ex-DC Gregg Williams that incriminates Vilma, just a hunch. If he reveals that, no player would want to play for Gregg Williams and possibly his hiring could be affected too. Again, I am just guessing why revealing the source could be detrimental for the source.

It is weird none of the coaches have appealed their suspensions in court, isn't it? If it really did not happen, no coach is going to lie down and take it like the Saints coaches have done so far, IMO. Even the coaches' meeting with Goodell was rumored to the coaches refering to Gregg Williams as a coach gone rogue in that meeting. If their allegiances changed so fast, to me, it is very likely Gregg Williams is the source. At least my guess is a better one than Sapp guessing it was Shockey .

[HarassedOffTheSite]

This is ridiculous. Just in case....grabbed Vilma in Fantasy.

[oldunclemark]

Ugly stuff is about to get uglier, IMO . Now, Goodell's hand will be forced to reveal his sources if this holds up.

I am sure the NFL is going to argue the merits of the panel to take up a lawsuit vs the NFL because that is the bigger Pandora's box they want to close. I am sure this case will come to the Supreme Court for a final decision and wont just go away with the lower courts. If the NFL appeals to the Supreme Court for a final verdict and the Supreme Court, based on the exemption status of the NFL, sides that an internal league matter cannot be tried in courts outside the confines of the NFL, then we are back to square one.

This is dangerous teritory becaues the basic agreement says the commisioner has this power...

The court is saying that, under certain circumstances...a binding labor agreement is invalid...

I dont know if either side wants to go there..

[oldunclemark]

Vilma should have accepted the suspension.........because he's now forcing the testimony of teamates against i and others to be made public....

Does anyone believe there were no bounties??

Does anyone really belivee Vilma is not guilty?? His head coach admitted there were bountiues...

You can get off with a good criminal lawyer but you're still a criminal

[Gavin]

He got away with destroying SpyGate tapes but however, they did not result in player suspensions. Now, he may have no other choice.

However, revealing the source will be the last option for Goodell, the NFL will continue to appeal till there is a verdict with the Supreme Court. I have a feeling it could be a written statement from ex-DC Gregg Williams that incriminates Vilma, just a hunch. If he reveals that, no player would want to play for Gregg Williams and possibly his hiring could be affected too. Again, I am just guessing why revealing the source could be detrimental for the source.

It is weird none of the coaches have appealed their suspensions in court, isn't it? If it really did not happen, no coach is going to lie down and take it like the Saints coaches have done so far, IMO. Even the coaches' meeting with Goodell was rumored to the coaches refering to Gregg Williams as a coach gone rogue in that meeting. If their allegiances changed so fast, to me, it is very likely Gregg Williams is the source. At least my guess is a better one than Sapp guessing it was Shockey .

a written statement is enough to incriminate someone now really? I believe if Vilma and the other are guilty then they should get what they received but I have yet to see proof of a bounty, yep the tapes were bad I nkw "kill the head and the body will die" is bad but that doesnt imply a bounty even the 200$ given out for the interception that we hear about on the tape isn't a bounty, Im back and forth to be honest on whether or not they are guilty, I see your point that the coaches are not fighting it now but its only going to look awful on Godell if he disciplines without showing any proof

[Gavin]

Vilma should have accepted the suspension.........because he's now forcing the testimony of teamates against i and others to be made public....

Does anyone believe there were no bounties??

Does anyone really belivee Vilma is not guilty?? His head coach admitted there were bountiues...

You can get off with a good criminal lawyer but you're still a criminal

where did the coach admit that

[JoKeR]

How is this NOT a bigger story?

[chad72]

a written statement is enough to incriminate someone now really?

Remember, this is not a court of law. What you say is extremely valid in a court of law. So, if you get a written statement, it is slightly better than "he said, she said". Even if the evidence of a written statement is produced, I am sure they will still make it out to a "he said, she said" case. The bigger question is, should this thing be allowed to play out in a court of law? That is going to be the fundamental argument the NFL will eventually have.

Players accused of crimes, allegedly, get suspensions. Big Ben got 4 games even though the charges were dropped. Yes, they were investigated but there was not enough evidence to press charges against Big Ben. Big Ben could easily argue against it in a court of law like Vilma. Vilma is actually making this a bigger distraction for the Saints eventually, IMO.

[chad72]

where did the coach admit that

Gregg Williams admitted that early on, he was the one who oversaw the defense. He did not technically use the word "bounty" but he admitted being guilty of actions that caused shame to the organization.

[NewColtsFan]

I disagree with this ruling on every level I can think of and then some......

But, I've also been saying that I think Goddell and his staff have mishandled this case and this is what happens when you mishandle things..... it comes back to bite you!

Hope Goddell and his lawyers can fix this and right fast!!

:slaphead:

[Gavin]

Gregg Williams admitted that early on, he was the one who oversaw the defense. He did not technically use the word "bounty" but he admitted being guilty of actions that caused shame to the organization.

what actions exactly?

[Gavin]

Remember, this is not a court of law. What you say is extremely valid in a court of law. So, if you get a written statement, it is slightly better than "he said, she said". Even if the evidence of a written statement is produced, I am sure they will still make it out to a "he said, she said" case. The bigger question is, should this thing be allowed to play out in a court of law? That is going to be the fundamental argument the NFL will eventually have.

Players accused of crimes, allegedly, get suspensions. Big Ben got 4 games even though the charges were dropped. Yes, they were investigated but there was not enough evidence to press charges against Big Ben. Big Ben could easily argue against it in a court of law like Vilma. Vilma is actually making this a bigger distraction for the Saints eventually, IMO.

question would who would write that statement even then I still want concrete proof, Goodell hasn't been known for a great track record recently or at the very least making very smart choices in my opinion of course

[chad72]

what actions exactly?

He never gave specifics in his speech, obviously. He accepted the punishment before resigning as DC of Rams he was hired as, never even met with Goodell like the other Saints' coaches, and has been MIA since then. Unless the speech following the punishment was related to something other than the bounty, the actions he was referring to had to be related to the "bounty". Again, plausible extrapolation on my part putting two and two together.

[oldunclemark]

where did the coach admit that

Their coach apologized for allowing this to happen and did not contest his year long suspension.

The players should, too.

Does anyone really believe there were no boutines for injuring opposing players?

[chad72]

question would who would write that statement even then I still want concrete proof, Goodell hasn't been known for a great track record recently or at the very least making very smart choices in my opinion of course

A written statement by a coach who was DC while the alleged actions took place is enough basis to hand out a punishment, IMO. Heck, even in a court of law, if someone that does not want to take a stand gives a written testimony, swears that his/her testimony is right and there is some evidence to prove it for the prosecutors or whoever it is trying to convince a jury, you can persuade a jury to get a conviction of some kind. Some jurors (like you ) may want the ultimate evidence like video etc. and some can be convinced that the smoke is because of a fire.

Unfortunately, Goodell is stuck now with his hands forced to reveal something or re-negotiate the suspensions if the NFL cannot get the courts to exempt NFL from a court of law. But then, now that it has come to this, even one game of suspension would be contested by Vilma. I smell Supreme Court all the way.

[oldunclemark]

question would who would write that statement even then I still want concrete proof, Goodell hasn't been known for a great track record recently or at the very least making very smart choices in my opinion of course

The bigger issue is playing crippling other players....or attempting to..for cash bonuses...

that's been going on for years......and the NOLA coaches admitted it was happening and are doing their time

the coaches were warned in 2009 to stop this and they did not..

[SilentHill]

Wow, this is insanity.

[Qwiz]

And of course Drew Brees is one of the first people to tweet about the freedom of his criminally-inclined teammates. Pitiful, I never liked him before and now have zero respect for the guy. Justice will be served eventually, I'm sure, once Goodell releases the other evidence, even if it does somehow incriminate Brees himself. That's going to blow Saints fans out of the water.

[Balzer40]

Looks like all of Drew Brees crybaby crap finally paid off. This is just a total farce. Im so sick of this organization and it's whiny players they literally make me sick to my stomach. Hears hoping the Saints gets a great big dose of karma.

[Tony Sullivan]

This would be the point where I gloat because of all the people I've argued with about this case but I won't. Well I guess I just did LOL.

But anyways, there was always only 2 options.

Either Goodell DID have sufficient evidence seperating the suspended players from the other ~50 players on the Saints, but he WOULD HAVE TO make it available to the defendants because they have the right to know the evidence against them.

Or he DIDN'T have the evidence and he was just abusing his power to make an example out of key players.

BUT HOLD ON, IT'S NOT OVER!!!

He still might have the evidence, but this has just proved that Goodell was willing to let it go through an arbitrator without revealing it. He may have just been hoping the players lost without him having to do that. Luckily for the players the panel had the common sense to see that without distinguishable evidence seperating their actions from the other ~50 players, they can't be 'hand-picked,' by Goodell for suspension.

If Goodell does indeed have the evidence, he WILL HAVE TO show it during his appeal of the panel's decision. This will be his last chance to suspend the players for this accusation. If he does go this route, which won't happen over night, all it will do is bring us back to where we were 2 months ago. Only this time, the players won't be suspended during the arbitration process. Even if the players lose they will have a chance to appeal that decision for a final time. IF that did happen, the decision from that appeal and following case would be the final judgement in this case.

TL:DR - Even if Goodell appeals and is succesful, the players will get a chance to appeal again, and likely this won't be finished until next off-season. The players won't be suspended again until the final verdict of this case is made.

[Fx Stryker]

And of course Drew Brees is one of the first people to tweet about the freedom of his criminally-inclined teammates. Pitiful, I never liked him before and now have zero respect for the guy. Justice will be served eventually, I'm sure, once Goodell releases the other evidence, even if it does somehow incriminate Brees himself. That's going to blow Saints fans out of the water.

Oh you mean you didn't grow fond of him when he ran up his stats in his contract year so he could get the big check? Then holdout when he didn't get the full contract he wanted? I mean that extra $5M will go a long way for him. :rolleyes:

[Qwiz]

Oh you mean you didn't grow found of him when he ran up his stats in his contract year so he could get the big check? Then holdout when he didn't get the full contract he wanted? I mean that extra $5M will go a long way for him. :rolleyes:

, yeah, you make a good point. I guess it seems worse to me that he's defending teammates who he more than likely knew were targeting other players and QBs just like him. He is a greedy son of a gun, but there are a lot of those in the league, so I didn't really pay attention to it lol.

[cbear]

Can someone explain this to me. From other articles, this "panel" is not a court panel. It is an arbitration panel of some kind. The actual legal proceedings are totally separate. If that is the case, How can this have even reached an arbitration hearing, seeing as how Goodell has total power via the CBA?

[Gavin]

Oh you mean you didn't grow fond of him when he ran up his stats in his contract year so he could get the big check? Then holdout when he didn't get the full contract he wanted? I mean that extra $5M will go a long way for him. :rolleyes:

He earned every penny of it on the field

[Nadine]

what is an appeals panel? These were judges?

[Tony Sullivan]

what is an appeals panel? These were judges?

They're mutually agreed upon arbitrators decided upon by the NFL and NFLPA, written into the CBA. Basically Goodell makes decision, players appeal to NFL, NFL (which represents Goodell) sides with Goodell, players appeal to an arbitrator.

The arbitrators(appeals panel) can be judges in the literal sense. They can be anyone really, it depends on what representation the NFL and NFLPA agreed upon in the CBA. This would be something like an athletic's commision, or professors or lawyers. It could be any representation that both parties feel would be an expert in the matter and hold no bias in the decision making.

There is a lot more involved in it with regards of representation, choice of council, and judicial involvement, but that's basically it in a nutshell.

[ColtFan12]

I don't like the fact that these players get off like this. Maybe its me because I don't like the New Orleans Saints because they beat the Colts in Super Bowl 44.

[cbear]

They're mutually agreed upon arbitrators decided upon by the NFL and NFLPA, written into the CBA. Basically Goodell makes decision, players appeal to NFL, NFL (which represents Goodell) sides with Goodell, players appeal to an arbitrator.

The arbitrators(appeals panel) can be judges in the literal sense. They can be anyone really, it depends on what representation the NFL and NFLPA agreed upon in the CBA. This would be something like an athletic's commision, or professors or lawyers. It could be any representation that both parties feel would be an expert in the matter and hold no bias in the decision making.

There is a lot more involved in it with regards of representation, choice of council, and judicial involvement, but that's basically it in a nutshell.

If this was in the CBA, what were the players complaining about saying that Goodell had no one that could overrule him? If there is this arbitration/appeal board, then there was always someone they could turn to for an appeal.

[21isSuperman]

This is such an ugly situation and it just keeps getting uglier. I have no respect for Vilma or Fujita and I have lost a ton of respect for Brees. Their adamant denial of the bounty even after Gregg Williams admitted there was a bounty system is stupid and makes them look like clowns.

[Gramz]

This is such an ugly situation and it just keeps getting uglier. I have no respect for Vilma or Fujita and I have lost a ton of respect for Brees. Their adamant denial of the bounty even after Gregg Williams admitted there was a bounty system is stupid and makes them look like clowns.

I don't understand all there is to know about all this, but I definitely agree with you about losing respect for these clowns. I am glad they are not part of our organization.

[MattyIce]

Cliffs: (Because the major nuanced issue hasn't been posted in this thread)

The Saints, to include the Coaching staff and Players "DO" admit to a "Pay for Performance" program. Not unlike several that have been found to have previously been operating in the league.

The Saints, to include "SOME" coaches,owner, and staff along with all players "DO NOT" admit this program was a "pay to injure" AKA "BOUNTY" program, which the NFL says it has verbal and written statements claiming this program existed for the sole purpose of targeting certain players to remove them from a game by injury or extreme physical pain to make them not want to continue.

3 things that often are overlooked when people weigh-in on this matter:

1) The Saints were confronted with allegations about the program in the offseason of their Superbowl win (2010), to which they; to include Payton,Loomis and the Owner, flatly denied "ANY COMPENSATORY PERFORMANCE PROGRAM EXISTED" (important to note). They were politely told by the NFL then any such program was illegal and to cease immediately.

2) We know now from the partially released evidence and media leaks that the NFL was given this initial info from a disgruntled Saints defensive coach who personally adminsitered payments, and created a ledger for the program at the behest of Greg Williams (GW). Magically he recanted his story apparently mid-season 2011. The NFL has proof from the seized ledger "A" program did in fact exist and continued operating in the 2010 and 2011 seasons after being warned to cease by the NFL. Payton,Loomis, and GW continuously lied to the NFL about the very existence of any sort of program, until GW caved when confronted with copies of the ledger and "multiple" statements from prior players. Once that domino fell, the whole program was exposed to the sunlight with all the liars in New Orleans having to publicly "Cop" to the program.

3) The players contrition was short lived and the very definition of the program was manipulated, into pay for performance instead of pay to injure. The distinction was made by the NFLPA (Kessler) after it was reported GW ran similar programs pretty much everywhere he coached. That phraseology is the very key the NFLPA is using to try and limit Goodells ability to impose the punishments he wanted to. Instead of trying to fight the lawyers about phraseology, Goodell attempted to punish under a separate clause in the CBA concerning "Salary-Cap" violations, which meant that the only words that mattered were "Pay For", and that "Injure" or "Performance" were moot, and he could move forward, and sweep this ugly matter under the rug.

With all that being said, my personal view is Goodell does not want to expose his sources; because his sources obviously are Payton,GW,and Hargrove. To expose the details of this program in it's entirety to the public so Goodell can be allowed to properly punish the involved players will both expose the NFL,Saints, and Players to litigation and possible criminal prosecution. It is beyond obvious to any objective observer that this was a conspiracy at the highest level of that organization, who thought that the NFL would never allow a PR disaster, like whuch that this has become, to ever go public.

In sum: the players have over-played their hand, and the NFL has only 1 move left on the board, because of Jeffery Kessler's over-agressive tactics. It's going to get very ugly, very quick.

[Gramz]

Cliffs: (Because the major nuanced issue hasn't been posted in this thread)

The Saints, to include the Coaching staff and Players "DO" admit to a "Pay for Performance" program. Not unlike several that have been found to have previously been operating in the league.

The Saints, to include "SOME" coaches,owner, and staff along with all players "DO NOT" admit this program was a "pay to injure" AKA "BOUNTY" program, which the NFL says it has verbal and written statements claiming this program existed for the sole purpose of targeting certain players to remove them from a game by injury or extreme physical pain to make them not want to continue.

3 things that often are overlooked when people weigh-in on this matter:

1) The Saints were confronted with allegations about the program in the offseason of their Superbowl win (2010), to which they; to include Payton,Loomis and the Owner, flatly denied "ANY COMPENSATORY PERFORMANCE PROGRAM EXISTED" (important to note). They were politely told by the NFL then any such program was illegal and to cease immediately.

2) We know now from the partially released evidence and media leaks that the NFL was given this initial info from a disgruntled Saints defensive coach who personally adminsitered payments, and created a ledger for the program at the behest of Greg Williams (GW). Magically he recanted his story apparently mid-season 2011. The NFL has proof from the seized ledger "A" program did in fact exist and continued operating in the 2010 and 2011 seasons after being warned to cease by the NFL. Payton,Loomis, and GW continuously lied to the NFL about the very existence of any sort of program, until GW caved when confronted with copies of the ledger and "multiple" statements from prior players. Once that domino fell, the whole program was exposed to the sunlight with all the liars in New Orleans having to publicly "Cop" to the program.

3) The players contrition was short lived and the very definition of the program was manipulated, into pay for performance instead of pay to injure. The distinction was made by the NFLPA (Kessler) after it was reported GW ran similar programs pretty much everywhere he coached. That phraseology is the very key the NFLPA is using to try and limit Goodells ability to impose the punishments he wanted to. Instead of trying to fight the lawyers about phraseology, Goodell attempted to punish under a separate clause in the CBA concerning "Salary-Cap" violations, which meant that the only words that mattered were "Pay For", and that "Injure" or "Performance" were moot, and he could move forward, and sweep this ugly matter under the rug.

With all that being said, my personal view is Goodell does not want to expose his sources; because his sources obviously are Payton,GW,and Hargrove. To expose the details of this program in it's entirety to the public so Goodell can be allowed to properly punish the involved players will both expose the NFL,Saints, and Players to litigation and possible criminal prosecution. It is beyond obvious to any objective observer that this was a conspiracy at the highest level of that organization, who thought that the NFL would never allow a PR disaster, like whuch that this has become, to ever go public.

In sum: the players have over-played their hand, and the NFL has only 1 move left on the board, because of Jeffery Kessler's over-agressive tactics. It's going to get very ugly, very quick.

Whatever it takes to "right" this wrong.. btw thanks for the detailed info.

[Coltsince4]

Cliffs: (Because the major nuanced issue hasn't been posted in this thread)

The Saints, to include the Coaching staff and Players "DO" admit to a "Pay for Performance" program. Not unlike several that have been found to have previously been operating in the league.

The Saints, to include "SOME" coaches,owner, and staff along with all players "DO NOT" admit this program was a "pay to injure" AKA "BOUNTY" program, which the NFL says it has verbal and written statements claiming this program existed for the sole purpose of targeting certain players to remove them from a game by injury or extreme physical pain to make them not want to continue.

3 things that often are overlooked when people weigh-in on this matter:

1) The Saints were confronted with allegations about the program in the offseason of their Superbowl win (2010), to which they; to include Payton,Loomis and the Owner, flatly denied "ANY COMPENSATORY PERFORMANCE PROGRAM EXISTED" (important to note). They were politely told by the NFL then any such program was illegal and to cease immediately.

2) We know now from the partially released evidence and media leaks that the NFL was given this initial info from a disgruntled Saints defensive coach who personally adminsitered payments, and created a ledger for the program at the behest of Greg Williams (GW). Magically he recanted his story apparently mid-season 2011. The NFL has proof from the seized ledger "A" program did in fact exist and continued operating in the 2010 and 2011 seasons after being warned to cease by the NFL. Payton,Loomis, and GW continuously lied to the NFL about the very existence of any sort of program, until GW caved when confronted with copies of the ledger and "multiple" statements from prior players. Once that domino fell, the whole program was exposed to the sunlight with all the liars in New Orleans having to publicly "Cop" to the program.

3) The players contrition was short lived and the very definition of the program was manipulated, into pay for performance instead of pay to injure. The distinction was made by the NFLPA (Kessler) after it was reported GW ran similar programs pretty much everywhere he coached. That phraseology is the very key the NFLPA is using to try and limit Goodells ability to impose the punishments he wanted to. Instead of trying to fight the lawyers about phraseology, Goodell attempted to punish under a separate clause in the CBA concerning "Salary-Cap" violations, which meant that the only words that mattered were "Pay For", and that "Injure" or "Performance" were moot, and he could move forward, and sweep this ugly matter under the rug.

With all that being said, my personal view is Goodell does not want to expose his sources; because his sources obviously are Payton,GW,and Hargrove. To expose the details of this program in it's entirety to the public so Goodell can be allowed to properly punish the involved players will both expose the NFL,Saints, and Players to litigation and possible criminal prosecution. It is beyond obvious to any objective observer that this was a conspiracy at the highest level of that organization, who thought that the NFL would never allow a PR disaster, like whuch that this has become, to ever go public.

In sum: the players have over-played their hand, and the NFL has only 1 move left on the board, because of Jeffery Kessler's over-agressive tactics. It's going to get very ugly, very quick.

I really hope it does get ugly and prove what this Saint Organization is really about. None of my saint (aint) freinds would believe

me when I said these aint players were a bunch of dirt bags and trying to hurt people the year they won the Superbowl. Was I the only one with my EYES OPENED TOTHIS GARBAGE??? The worse part about this is, I live here to close To New Orleans and I have to see and here all the FU-IN of Goodell. For the most part saint fans could care less if they did anything wrong long as they win and do what ever it takes to win, right or wrong. But Sorry to say that's The City of New Orleans for you and for the most part the fans. They do feel with the heart, but are blinder than bats with no eyes. So I have to live in this mess. HELP!!!!!

Coltsince4

[smittywerb]

Ugly, just ugly. The cards are now in Goodell hands. If he has the evidence, he will reveal it and everyone goes on about their business. If not, expect all ____ to break loose. This is uglier than Spygate.

[southwest1]

Cliffs: (Because the major nuanced issue hasn't been posted in this thread)

The Saints, to include the Coaching staff and Players "DO" admit to a "Pay for Performance" program. Not unlike several that have been found to have previously been operating in the league.

The Saints, to include "SOME" coaches,owner, and staff along with all players "DO NOT" admit this program was a "pay to injure" AKA "BOUNTY" program, which the NFL says it has verbal and written statements claiming this program existed for the sole purpose of targeting certain players to remove them from a game by injury or extreme physical pain to make them not want to continue.

3 things that often are overlooked when people weigh-in on this matter:

1) The Saints were confronted with allegations about the program in the offseason of their Superbowl win (2010), to which they; to include Payton,Loomis and the Owner, flatly denied "ANY COMPENSATORY PERFORMANCE PROGRAM EXISTED" (important to note). They were politely told by the NFL then any such program was illegal and to cease immediately.

2) We know now from the partially released evidence and media leaks that the NFL was given this initial info from a disgruntled Saints defensive coach who personally adminsitered payments, and created a ledger for the program at the behest of Greg Williams (GW). Magically he recanted his story apparently mid-season 2011. The NFL has proof from the seized ledger "A" program did in fact exist and continued operating in the 2010 and 2011 seasons after being warned to cease by the NFL. Payton,Loomis, and GW continuously lied to the NFL about the very existence of any sort of program, until GW caved when confronted with copies of the ledger and "multiple" statements from prior players. Once that domino fell, the whole program was exposed to the sunlight with all the liars in New Orleans having to publicly "Cop" to the program.

3) The players contrition was short lived and the very definition of the program was manipulated, into pay for performance instead of pay to injure. The distinction was made by the NFLPA (Kessler) after it was reported GW ran similar programs pretty much everywhere he coached. That phraseology is the very key the NFLPA is using to try and limit Goodells ability to impose the punishments he wanted to. Instead of trying to fight the lawyers about phraseology, Goodell attempted to punish under a separate clause in the CBA concerning "Salary-Cap" violations, which meant that the only words that mattered were "Pay For", and that "Injure" or "Performance" were moot, and he could move forward, and sweep this ugly matter under the rug.

With all that being said, my personal view is Goodell does not want to expose his sources; because his sources obviously are Payton,GW,and Hargrove. To expose the details of this program in it's entirety to the public so Goodell can be allowed to properly punish the involved players will both expose the NFL,Saints, and Players to litigation and possible criminal prosecution. It is beyond obvious to any objective observer that this was a conspiracy at the highest level of that organization, who thought that the NFL would never allow a PR disaster, like whuch that this has become, to ever go public.

In sum: the players have over-played their hand, and the NFL has only 1 move left on the board, because of Jeffery Kessler's over-agressive tactics. It's going to get very ugly, very quick.

Even with the existence of the financial ledger and the awareness of parties directly involved i.e. a conspiracy among Gregg Williams, Sean Payton, and GM Loomis, I have 2 questions: #1 The ledger is rumored to indicate that a pool was indeed created but is fuzzy on how much money was paid out for 3 years and exactly to whom. In order to validate proof of a conspiracy, a prosecutor or NFL Commissioner in this case must display concrete evidence of illegal payments being distributed to exact individuals over time for a specific purpose or activity. If the records are not precise, revealing specific amounts to specific players over a specific timeframe, there is no conspiracy without independent corroboration. Since Gregg Williams is an integral part of the conspiracy in question, his testimony does not qualify as justification of the bounty scandal because typically prosecutors need a reliable source who did not directly participate in a illegal conspiracy to validate the existence of the conspiracy. Who can confirm independently that an illegal conspiracy actually took place besides Gregg Williams?

#2: Roger Goodell had all the evidence in this bounty case reviewed by a former U.S. Attorney prior to moving forward with the player punishment phase of this case. Who was this person and what documentation exactly compelled this person to put their prosecutorial reputation on the line by giving Goodell the green light to proceed with unprecedented player punishments?