Dakich on Pagano.....

[shasta519]

5 minutes ago, J@son said:

 

didn't realize you were in the contract negotiation meetings.  my bad

 

I didn't need to be...I have common sense. Irsay preaches about continuity and had said they were optimistic about an extension for Hilton just six weeks after the draft. And Luck's extension was coming up. Common sense dictates that Hilton was a priority and they knew what it would take...which they obviously did because they offered it. The idea that the Colts would let Hilton go for a rookie unknown...right before they were going to sign Luck long-term...was just nonsense.

 

 

[Buddy Lee]

Dakich is a self-promoting blow hard. I can't stand to listen to him.

[shasta519]

13 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Good drafters don't draft for the needs of one season. 

 

I don't think even bad drafters do that (which Grigs certainly was). Given the amount of control you get out of a rookie...it wouldn't make sense. But it doesn't really matter because those other positions (S, ILB DT) were long-term needs as well.

 

I think good drafters draft for a combo of value/talent (however you want to define it). If a top talent falls, he becomes a great value, which makes him desirable even if he doesn't fit an immediate need. If the talent level is similar across two players, the player that fits an immediate need and can have an immediate impact becomes the better value. You also have positional value to consider. A good starting 3-4 DE is worth more than a good starting C for example...because of the surplus value in a rookie contract (think having Wilkerson and signing a C vs. having Kelly and trying to get a DE in FA).

 

But Dorsett didn't really fit into any of those categories. He wasn't demonstrably more talented than other guys available and he didn't fill an immediate long-term need for a Super Bowl contending team.

 

And given that he was going to be the WR3 (and not WR1 or even WR2) on this team, his positional value was low because he wasn't going to give you much surplus value (WR3 production is readily available in FA and the later rounds of a draft). The Colts were going to extend Hilton and Moncrief was being groomed to be the WR2. They also had two TEs and Andre Johnson for at least one more year. Dorsett was just never going to give them the production of a 1st round pick.

 

 

[Smonroe]

2 hours ago, J@son said:

 

Your timeline is off.  Reggie was a Free Agent at the time (and wound up signing with the Patriots) as was Hilton.  Hilton didn't get re-signed until August, several months after Dorsett was drafted.

 

You are correct sir!  About Reggie, anyway.  TY had another year.   

 

 

[crazycolt1]

4 hours ago, WoolMagnet said:

Starting to think Dachik and Kravitz are twins separated at birth.

[crazycolt1]

50 minutes ago, Buddy Lee said:

Dakich is a self-promoting blow hard. I can't stand to listen to him.

I agree. IMO he wouldn't even have a radio show if he didn't have connections with Bobby Knight.

[GoColts8818]

45 minutes ago, Buddy Lee said:

Dakich is a self-promoting blow hard. I can't stand to listen to him.

This might be the most correct thing said in this thread.

[Jason_]

1 hour ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

 

Seriously. He's a much better player than Bjoern Werner or Trent Richardson were, he was just drafted a little higher than he should've been, that's it.

 

I don't even think that's it. Its the simple fact that the people complaining felt the pick should have been a defender, even if that player had been a lesser overall talent

[Jason_]

1 hour ago, shastamasta said:

 

I didn't need to be...I have common sense. Irsay preaches about continuity and had said they were optimistic about an extension for Hilton just six weeks after the draft. And Luck's extension was coming up. Common sense dictates that Hilton was a priority and they knew what it would take...which they obviously did because they offered it. The idea that the Colts would let Hilton go for a rookie unknown...right before they were going to sign Luck long-term...was just nonsense.

 

 

 

Irsay also said at one time that he could not see any reason why Peyton manning would not be the colts QB in 2012. Things can change.

 

Common sense and what the colt front office prioritized doesn't mean jack unless the contract is signed. Sure, they had an idea what it would take, but any number of factors could have caused that to change. Maybe Hilton cganges his mind and decides he wants more money than he originally said. Maybe this...maybe that. Again hundreds of possibilities.  

 

And I dont recall seeing ANYONE say that they would let Hilton go for Dorset. People have said that the fact Hilton had not been extended means that the WR position (as of the draft) was not as "set" as many like to claim.

[WoolMagnet]

7 minutes ago, J@son said:

 

I don't even think that's it. Its the simple fact that the people complaining felt the pick should have been a defender, even if that player had been a lesser overall talent

If i remember correctly, Hilton was due a big payday.  There were rumors the Texans and a few teams were interested.  Im not so sure he wasnt drafted "just in case" Hilton left.  Im not so sure he would have been drafted if Ty was under a long-term contract.

[Jason_]

47 minutes ago, Smonroe said:

 

You are correct sir!  About Reggie, anyway.  TY had another year.   

 

 

 

You are also correct. That was my bad...obviously lol. The point does still remain though that Hilton was not guaranteed at that time (draft day) to be part of the colts future. 

 

Dont get me wrong...I hated the pick too. But...I dont agree that WR was not a need. 

 

[Yoshinator]

14 minutes ago, J@son said:

 

I don't even think that's it. Its the simple fact that the people complaining felt the pick should have been a defender, even if that player had been a lesser overall talent

Well, you would have to take Grigson's word that Dorsett was the BPA and a defender like Malcolm Brown or Landon Collins was a lesser overall talent, and even back then, you could question his word on that. The 2013 draft was looking like a bust (besides Vontae, which was a trade), and only Mewhort and Moncrief hit in 2014 (Trent Richardson looked like a bust after one year). This was the exact time I started doubting Grigson's ability as a GM, and I was higher on Dorsett than anyone on this forum, saying he would be better than Amari Cooper.

[crazycolt1]

12 minutes ago, WoolMagnet said:

If i remember correctly, Hilton was due a big payday.  There were rumors the Texans and a few teams were interested.  Im not so sure he wasnt drafted "just in case" Hilton left.  Im not so sure he would have been drafted if Ty was under a long-term contract.

I agree. IMO the Dorsett pick was made because Grigson was not sure of Hilton being resigned. Some forum members liked it, some didn't. I think the opinions on both sides had merit.

Going back and using hind sight just doesn't solve anything at this point.

[WoolMagnet]

Just now, crazycolt1 said:

I agree. IMO the Dorsett pick was made because Grigson was not sure of Hilton being resigned. Some forum members liked it, some didn't. I think the opinions on both sides had merit.

Going back and using hind sight just doesn't solve anything at this point.

Some people just arent happy unless they are unhappy.

[crazycolt1]

8 minutes ago, Jared Cisneros said:

Well, you would have to take Grigson's word that Dorsett was the BPA and a defender like Malcolm Brown or Landon Collins was a lesser overall talent, and even back then, you could question his word on that. The 2013 draft was looking like a bust (besides Vontae, which was a trade), and only Mewhort and Moncrief hit in 2014 (Trent Richardson looked like a bust after one year). This was the exact time I started doubting Grigson's ability as a GM, and I was higher on Dorsett than anyone on this forum, saying he would be better than Amari Cooper.

It seems we will never know what Dorsett can do. He hasn't been used correctly IMO. With the poor offensive line play we have had for a long time Luck hasn't had the luxury of using all of his weapons.

[Yoshinator]

2 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

I agree. IMO the Dorsett pick was made because Grigson was not sure of Hilton being resigned. Some forum members liked it, some didn't. I think the opinions on both sides had merit.

Going back and using hind sight just doesn't solve anything at this point.

Actually there may have literally been 2 or 3 members of this forum that were actually happy about it. I was one of them, and I think Danlhart was the other. The only other people that were "happy" about it, were people who knew nothing about the draft and still blindly trusted Grigson at the time so they went along with it. There was a huge minority of people who were happy about the pick who studied the draft that year.

[Yoshinator]

Just now, Jared Cisneros said:

Actually there may have literally been 2 or 3 members of this forum that were actually happy about it. I was one of them, and I think Danlhart was the other. The only other people that were "happy" about it, were people who knew nothing about the draft and still blindly trusted Grigson at the time so they went along with it. There was a huge minority of people who were happy about the pick who studied the draft that year.

weren't happy, sorry

[Yoshinator]

2 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

It seems we will never know what Dorsett can do. He hasn't been used correctly IMO. With the poor offensive line play we have had for a long time Luck hasn't had the luxury of using all of his weapons.

Agreed, it's not even Pagano's fault, this is literally 100% Chud's fault. I wish we could get a new OC as soon as possible.

[Chrisaaron1023]

4 minutes ago, Jared Cisneros said:

Agreed, it's not even Pagano's fault, this is literally 100% Chud's fault. I wish we could get a new OC as soon as possible.

why jared? you don't like our play calling??

 

[Smoke317]

7 hours ago, Shafty138 said:

Don't really take Dakich's sentiments on NFL too seriously as he seems much less connected in Football circles than he is in Basketball..... but he is "claiming"  on 1070 right now, that he has sources that say the Colts locker room is in shambles......  saying that Pagano bucking the initial Ballard requirement of a more physical camp, then bowing to Ballard demand for it, lost the Locker room and now the players see Pagano as sucking up to Ballard.....  

 

There has long been a saying that you can come in hard as far as leadership positions go, and ease up over time, but you cannot come in easy, and get tough over time.......  Again, not sure how much I trust his "sources"  since he still today is kind of siding with Grigson, mentioning we'd all be "SHOCKED" if we knew how many of the crappy draft picks over the last few years were Chuck's picks.......  ( I wouldn't be, I can see Green, D'joun Smith, and Werner being Chuck guys easily )  

Whoever's idea it was to draft Werner should be drawn & quartered. Quite possibly our worst draft pick of all time. Definitely in the last 20 years. 

[BR-549]

5 minutes ago, Jared Cisneros said:

Actually there may have literally been 2 or 3 members of this forum that were actually happy about it. I was one of them, and I think Danlhart was the other. The only other people that were "happy" about it, were people who knew nothing about the draft and still blindly trusted Grigson at the time so they went along with it. There was a huge minority of people who were happy about the pick who studied the draft that year.

Not trying to pick on you Jared.... but for clarity sake, just what exactly is a huge minority?

 

It doesn't matter, I just found it comical.  Carry on

[Smoke317]

7 hours ago, Shafty138 said:

Dakich also says there is a large, and growing faction within the team that wants Gore released, so who knows......   I could kinda see it if they believe they are not going anywhere, let Frank go win in his twilight years..... and Start Turbin until Mack is ready

Released so he can go to a contender?

[crazycolt1]

10 minutes ago, Jared Cisneros said:

Agreed, it's not even Pagano's fault, this is literally 100% Chud's fault. I wish we could get a new OC as soon as possible.

It wouldn't surprise me if Dorsett goes to another team and turns into a pretty good receiver. It sure wouldn't be the first time we have let a player go and that player turns out to be a player who we would like to have back.

[Yoshinator]

2 minutes ago, BR-549 said:

Not trying to pick on you Jared.... but for clarity sake, just what exactly is a huge minority?

 

It doesn't matter, I just found it comical.  Carry on

Haha, I meant majority lol!  

[Superman]

1 hour ago, shastamasta said:

 

I don't think even bad drafters do that (which Grigs certainly was). Given the amount of control you get out of a rookie...it wouldn't make sense. But it doesn't really matter because those other positions (S, ILB DT) were long-term needs as well.

 

I think good drafters draft for a combo of value/talent (however you want to define it). If a top talent falls, he becomes a great value, which makes him desirable even if he doesn't fit an immediate need. If the talent level is similar across two players, the player that fits an immediate need and can have an immediate impact becomes the better value. You also have positional value to consider. A good starting 3-4 DE is worth more than a good starting C for example...because of the surplus value in a rookie contract (think having Wilkerson and signing a C vs. having Kelly and trying to get a DE in FA).

 

But Dorsett didn't really fit into any of those categories. He wasn't demonstrably more talented than other guys available and he didn't fill an immediate long-term need for a Super Bowl contending team.

 

And given that he was going to be the WR3 (and not WR1 or even WR2) on this team, his positional value was low because he wasn't going to give you much surplus value (WR3 production is readily available in FA and the later rounds of a draft). The Colts were going to extend Hilton and Moncrief was being groomed to be the WR2. They also had two TEs and Andre Johnson for at least one more year. Dorsett was just never going to give them the production of a 1st round pick.

 

I think some GMs do get blinded by need; I think Werner was a needs based pick, at least that's how I've come to terms with him over Rhodes. 

 

But my point is that if you're argument against Dorsett is 'we didn't need a WR!!' then we might as well not even talk about it. First, needs-based drafting is a mistake. Second, as it turned out, the receiving corps we had in 2015 didn't turn out to be all that hot; a lot of the 'we don't need a receiver' stuff was based on Johnson, who busted, and Rogers, who didn't make the roster. Don't draft for need.

 

We definitely could have done better than Dorsett; Grigson didn't prove to be a good drafter. But it's not because we had bigger needs. That's not a relevant criticism.

[crazycolt1]

12 minutes ago, Smoke317 said:

Whoever's idea it was to draft Werner should be drawn & quartered. Quite possibly our worst draft pick of all time. Definitely in the last 20 years. 

Maybe over the last 20 years but not in Colts history. That would have to be John Elway, Jeff George and Trev Alberts.

[Yoshinator]

4 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

It wouldn't surprise me if Dorsett goes to another team and turns into a pretty good receiver. It sure wouldn't be the first time we have let a player go and that player turns out to be a player who we would like to have back.

Yep, unfortunately we probably won't get a new OC without a new Coach, and Dorsett may not even make it through the year. It's a bad situation all around, and I don't see Chud changing his playbook unfortunately.

[1959Colts]

14 minutes ago, Jared Cisneros said:

Yep, unfortunately we probably won't get a new OC without a new Coach, and Dorsett may not even make it through the year. It's a bad situation all around, and I don't see Chud changing his playbook unfortunately.

...

You mean you don't like the three yard pass to Jack Doyle play?

[shasta519]

44 minutes ago, J@son said:

 

Irsay also said at one time that he could not see any reason why Peyton manning would not be the colts QB in 2012. Things can change.

 

Common sense and what the colt front office prioritized doesn't mean jack unless the contract is signed. Sure, they had an idea what it would take, but any number of factors could have caused that to change. Maybe Hilton cganges his mind and decides he wants more money than he originally said. Maybe this...maybe that. Again hundreds of possibilities.  

 

And I dont recall seeing ANYONE say that they would let Hilton go for Dorset. People have said that the fact Hilton had not been extended means that the WR position (as of the draft) was not as "set" as many like to claim.

 

The Luck/Manning situation is on an entirely different level...for many reasons. To use it as a comparison here (or for any reason) is just grasping at straws.

 

There were definitively people speculating that Dorsett was a replacement for Hilton at the time. And it's being speculated here that this could have been their mindset at the time. In fact, it seems like the justification for the pick is predicated on that idea...that the the WR1 and WR2 situation wasn't set because of Hilton. It has to be...otherwise we are talking about the entire WR group overall, which would still make Dorsett a WR3 and a poor value at that pick.

[NewColtsFan]

23 minutes ago, Jared Cisneros said:

Yep, unfortunately we probably won't get a new OC without a new Coach, and Dorsett may not even make it through the year. It's a bad situation all around, and I don't see Chud changing his playbook unfortunately.

 

41 minutes ago, Jared Cisneros said:

Agreed, it's not even Pagano's fault, this is literally 100% Chud's fault. I wish we could get a new OC as soon as possible.

 

 

I go away for a few hours and you're back to making post after post that just make no sense.

 

All Chud's fault?      Dear God!           

 

Here is Dorsett's profile:    

 

http://www.colts.com/team/roster/Phillip-Dorsett/dc715543-6be4-45e6-92ca-6865693cfee0

 

In Dorsett's rookie year,  where Chud took over about half-way through the season, and where Dorsett got hurt,   Dorsett caught less than 2 passes per game at a clip of 12.5 yards per catch.

 

In his 2nd season,  last year,   Dorsett averaged more than 2 catches per game,  and his yards per catch number JUMPED to 16.0 yards a catch.     That's a HUGE jump.    HELLO?!?     It is not uncommon to see young unpolished wide receivers take a several seasons to figure things out,  and learn how to run the full rout tree and become a polished wide receiver.     This is, in part,  why we went out and gout ourselves a top wide receiver coach.

 

All this complaining and moaning about Chud is the nonsense that @Superman has been peddling.     Dorsett is a candida†´for Chud's using a player correctly,  not incorrectly.       Chud has been the OC of record for exactly one season and Dorsett performance SPIKED to the positive.     If healthy,  and apparently it's a big IF,  then it should improve again.      Give a guy some time to make things better.

 

You are so angry,  so down on this team,  that you are just lashing out and making irrational posts that are NOT worthy of you. 

 

You're not doing yourself any favors.

 

 

 

[Superman]

27 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

All this complaining and moaning about Chud is the nonsense that @Superman has been peddling.  

 

Wow.

[LJpalmbeacher2]

4 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

What makes you think you have any idea --- any at all --- about how much input Pagano has had to know if Pagano's input has worked out or not?

 

No one on this website has any idea.      

 

Ultimately,  it's not about Pagano's input.     It's about the decisions that the GM,  the director of college scouting,  and the scouts make that impacts things the most.

 

 

 

He Definitely WANTED GREENE. In fact he was nervous when Griggs traded down thinking Greene wouldn't be there when colts picked again but Griggs assured him he would be.

It was mentioned here by several he wanted D. Smith.

I have no Idea about Werner but also mentioned here pagano wanted him so I'm not doubting that.

 

On one hand people say the HC has to be in war room & and have input AND THEN turn around and say it's about the decisions of the GM(which it should 100% be) the director of college scouting and the scouts that impacts the most.

Pagamo should be allowed in war room for PR, but his input and duties should only be getting sandwiches & snacks, beverages and coffee etc...

[LJpalmbeacher2]

Just now, Superman said:

 

Wow.

 

Wow is right, and your his Hero lol.

Just for the record I'm not a big fan of Chud myself.

[NewColtsFan]

3 minutes ago, LJpalmbeacher said:

 

He Definitely WANTED GREENE. In fact he was nervous when Griggs traded down thinking Greene wouldn't be there when colts picked again but Griggs assured him he would be.

It was mentioned here by several he wanted D. Smith.

I have no Idea about Werner but also mentioned here pagano wanted him so I'm not doubting that.

 

On one hand people say the HC has to be in war room & and have input AND THEN turn around and say it's about the decisions of the GM(which it should 100% be) the director of college scouting and the scouts that impacts the most.

Pagamo should be allowed in war room for PR, but his input and duties should only be getting sandwiches & snacks, beverages and coffee etc...

 

Pagano also definitely wanted HOOKER.

 

I don't know why you'd use one example of a draft pick to make a case that a coach shouldn't be in a war room.   No one gets everything right.....     Not even Bill Belichick.      Feel free to look-up his draft record....    it's NOT as impreesive as one would imagine....

 

[NewColtsFan]

9 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Wow.

 

Did you not make a post in the last 24 hours where you talked about the 3 assistant coaches that you'd keep and Chud was not one of them?      Or did I misread that?

 

[IndyScribe]

2 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Pagano also definitely wanted HOOKER.

 

I don't know why you'd use one example of a draft pick to make a case that a coach shouldn't be in a war room.   No one gets everything right.....     Not even Bill Belichick.      Feel free to look-up his draft record....    it's NOT as impreesive as one would imagine....

 

Slightly off topic, but yeah, you're correct. Bill is much better as a HC than a GM. Most of his early round picks haven't worked out. 

[Superman]

Just now, NewColtsFan said:

 

Did you not make a post in the last 24 hours where you talked about the 3 assistant coaches that you'd keep and Chud was not one of them?      Or did I misread that?

 

 

So me not being a fan of Chud = nonsense? 

 

I mean, look, I've presented arguments based on stats and even shown pictorials of the things I dislike about our offense. It's one thing to say you think I'm wrong and even say you think I'm being unfair, but it's interesting that if I don't like Chud, that I'm peddling nonsense. 

 

That's wow-worthy.

[crazycolt1]

11 minutes ago, IndyScribe said:

Slightly off topic, but yeah, you're correct. Bill is much better as a HC than a GM. Most of his early round picks haven't worked out. 

?? Belichick is the head coach AND the GM.

[crazycolt1]

20 minutes ago, LJpalmbeacher said:

 

He Definitely WANTED GREENE. In fact he was nervous when Griggs traded down thinking Greene wouldn't be there when colts picked again but Griggs assured him he would be.

It was mentioned here by several he wanted D. Smith.

I have no Idea about Werner but also mentioned here pagano wanted him so I'm not doubting that.

 

On one hand people say the HC has to be in war room & and have input AND THEN turn around and say it's about the decisions of the GM(which it should 100% be) the director of college scouting and the scouts that impacts the most.

Pagamo should be allowed in war room for PR, but his input and duties should only be getting sandwiches & snacks, beverages and coffee etc...

Even when you make a little sense you then throw it out the window and end it with an ignorant comment.

[Crush22]

1 hour ago, 1959Colts said:

...

You mean you don't like the three yard pass to Jack Doyle play?

Not when we need 17 yards for a first down.