More Very Bad Data On CTE Test Results

[BloodyChamp]

On 7/27/2017 at 0:44 AM, crazycolt1 said:

I think you are thinking of two different things. Where the 99% was drawn from was the brains who were donated to be checked, not all players.

But there are still over 4,500 players who have been diagnosed with CTE and have already received benefits with another over 2,250 still to be determined.

 

Unless there's a difference between the donated brains and the other brains my op stands.

[RockThatBlue]

2 hours ago, BR-549 said:

You know I had that thought too that it was intentionally trying to persuade.... Hear so much talk on radio shows about letting kids play football or not... more propaganda for influencing parents.

Thats exactly what it is, in my opinion. I could be wrong, but I'm always skeptical about things like this.

 

I would be more open to this stuff if more studies were done on other sports. Football is a brutal sport, but its not the only sport where people hit each other. For instance, theres hitting in Boxing, Soccer, hell Rugby and Hockey are pretty violent sports in their own right,but you never see a bunch of studies pushed about those sports. Its always football, or it at least seems that way.

[ColtsBlueFL]

8 hours ago, RockThatBlue said:

Hot take alert:

 

I feel like studies like this are released in an effort to hurt football. This study is very, very skewed and far from proves anything. Not saying CTE isn't a real issue, but I am always skeptical of things that are pushed as 'fact' when the evidence is usually skewed.

 

5 hours ago, BR-549 said:

You know I had that thought too that it was intentionally trying to persuade.... Hear so much talk on radio shows about letting kids play football or not... more propaganda for influencing parents.

 

Ok, you can go with 'your gut feeling', and reasoning for disparaging articles. But you will still have to address this finding and article from  just over a year and one half ago from -

 

'Bennet Omalu, a Nigeria-born neuropathologist, who first discovered chronic encephalopathy (CTE) in an NFL player when he saw the debilitating disease in the brain of Mike Webster, the Hall of Fame center for the Pittsburgh Steelers who died in 2002. This finding sparked a chain of events that ultimately forced the NFL to settle a class-action lawsuit from retired players and raised unprecedented awareness of the dangers of football head trauma.'

 

Takeaways-

 

"In my opinion, taking professional football players as a cohort, I think over 90% of American football players suffer from this disease. Over 90% of players who play to the professional level have some degree of this disease. I have not examined any brain of a retired football player that came back negative.

 

They could have maybe minimal symptoms, mild symptoms, moderate symptoms, or severe symptoms. I meet with retired football players. Some are well-dressed, some are well-spoken, but when you talk to them personally they will admit to you that they are having problems.

 

They are being treated by their psychiatrists. So I think 90 to 100% of all of them will have some residual problem from their exposure to thousands of blows to the head.

This was why, when I came across this disease, I sent a letter to the NFL: let us have a prospective study to examine the brain of every retired NFL player who died. This is the best way to confirm that we’re not speculating. When I proposed this they did not even acknowledge our letter."

 

Excerpt from-

 

http://time.com/4158140/concussion-film-bennet-omalu-cte-nfl/

 

Pause for rebuttal...

 

 

 

 

 

[southwest1]

7 hours ago, BR-549 said:

You know I had that thought too that it was intentionally trying to persuade.... Hear so much talk on radio shows about letting kids play football or not... more propaganda for influencing parents.

I don't know why the NFL would even care what any CTE study said about brain trauma, concussions, & possible death because there will always be athletes from impoverished backgrounds who will play football in order to do anything to get out of the projects or barely scrapping by just to have a shot at a better standard of living & a more lucrative income bracket if their drive & talent is strong enough to play football at the highest level. 

 

Look, I get it, from a public relations perspective that the League has to look like they care & give a darn about safety even if they don't. For every parent that discourages their kid from playing football, there's always a surplus of players to take their place. 

[southwest1]

4 hours ago, RockThatBlue said:

Thats exactly what it is, in my opinion. I could be wrong, but I'm always skeptical about things like this.

 

I would be more open to this stuff if more studies were done on other sports. Football is a brutal sport, but its not the only sport where people hit each other. For instance, theres hitting in Boxing, Soccer, hell Rugby and Hockey are pretty violent sports in their own right,but you never see a bunch of studies pushed about those sports. Its always football, or it at least seems that way.

It's a valid point RTB, but American football is king in the sports world as you know, but the vast majority of people residing inside the US could care less about soccer, rugby, boxing, & hockey on average. 

 

I will grant you that boxing has some interest, but only in lone aggressor lopsided matchups like back when Mike Tyson was invincible & intimidating his opponents. Hockey is intriguing though given the puck, the ice, the speed they glide on top of frozen water, & when players fight in the rink it's pretty intense sparring in confined spaces overall. 

 

Prolonged hockey concussion player studies would be fascinating to look at especially in goalies. In other words, is contact at high velocity on the ice more dangerous on the move or primarily from a stationary position aside from sliding back & forth in front of the main net or nets? How durable is hockey equipment when it comes to protecting the face & human brain when a puck bounces off it? 

 

I don't watch hockey regularly so I'm far from an expert. 

[JCPatriot]

On ‎7‎/‎26‎/‎2017 at 2:52 PM, jvan1973 said:

What is the percentage of everyday non football players?  Without comparison,  it's hard to know exactly what the study actually means

 

Yeah, I would like to see numbers for just a random sample of the general population.......although, the numbers that they presented might give a glimpse.  They reported...

 

110 of 111 former NFL players

48 of 53 former college players

3 of 14 former high school players

 

That would suggest that the rate goes up as the level of play goes up, although the numbers are skewed since the sample is a voluntary sample.  If you are concerned that you have CTE, then you probably have a higher than normal chance of having CTE.  But even with skewed numbers, it seems that the rate does go up at higher levels of play, just maybe not as much as these numbers would indicate.  That could be for two reasons that I can think of.  The first reason is the cumulative effects of playing for a longer time period.  The second reason is harder, more violent hitting at the higher levels of play.

 

The other thing that I would like to know is more specific information about the high school players that were studied, since they are the closest thing that we have to a sample of the general population.  Were these players that played in high school, stopped playing after high school, lived their lives, and then died at a normal age?  Or were these former players that died young for some reason?  If they are players that died young, then it is possible that the reason that they have a lower rate of CTE is simply because they are younger than the other people studied.  Maybe people naturally develop CTE as they age.  It might have nothing to do with football.  On the other hand, if they died at a normal age, then it has been 50+ years since they played football.  High school football has changed quite a bit in the past 50+ years.  So I would imagine that rate will probably go up if you fast forward to the point where today's high school players are dying.

 

All of this is why numbers for sample groups that have nothing to do with football would be useful to compare against.  A random population sample, people that jog every day, people that operate jackhammers on construction sites, human cannonballs, etc.

[Chrisaaron1023]

So what exactly are "they" trying to do/prove? NFL players have CTE from the sport, so.... are we gonna stop football now or later? Get on with life man. Why all the studies if they aren't going to change anything. Sometimes knowing EVERYHING isn't beneficial.. it just puts fear into life.

[MB-ColtsFan]

1 hour ago, Chrisaaron1023 said:

So what exactly are "they" trying to do/prove? NFL players have CTE from the sport, so.... are we gonna stop football now or later? Get on with life man. Why all the studies if they aren't going to change anything. Sometimes knowing EVERYHING isn't beneficial.. it just puts fear into life.

Or...it gives pause to people who want to NOT have to endure the possibility of having CTE.

 

I don't know that it's creating fear as much as it is allowing athletes to make an informed decision: "Is it worth playing football if I have a high risk of getting CTE"?

[crazycolt1]

2 hours ago, Chrisaaron1023 said:

So what exactly are "they" trying to do/prove? NFL players have CTE from the sport, so.... are we gonna stop football now or later? Get on with life man. Why all the studies if they aren't going to change anything. Sometimes knowing EVERYHING isn't beneficial.. it just puts fear into life.

You may have a different point of view if someone you love played high school football and suffered two serious concussions and is now affected the rest of their life.

Had I known all the facts of CTE I might have been a little less inclined to push my grandson into playing football. He could have played baseball instead.He is now 22 and cant even hold a screwdriver or write his name with a readable handwriting.

It's easy for you to dismiss all this as it means nothing to you because you want to be entertained.

[crazycolt1]

21 minutes ago, MB-ColtsFan said:

Or...it gives pause to people who want to NOT have to endure the possibility of having CTE.

 

I don't know that it's creating fear as much as it is allowing athletes to make an informed decision: "Is it worth playing football if I have a high risk of getting CTE"?

Exactly. Maybe if the athlete knew all the facts they would chose to play baseball or basketball.

[ColtsBlueFL]

6 hours ago, JCPatriot said:

 

Yeah, I would like to see numbers for just a random sample of the general population.......although, the numbers that they presented might give a glimpse.  They reported...

 

110 of 111 former NFL players

48 of 53 former college players

3 of 14 former high school players

 

That would suggest that the rate goes up as the level of play goes up, although the numbers are skewed since the sample is a voluntary sample.  If you are concerned that you have CTE, then you probably have a higher than normal chance of having CTE.  But even with skewed numbers, it seems that the rate does go up at higher levels of play, just maybe not as much as these numbers would indicate.  That could be for two reasons that I can think of.  The first reason is the cumulative effects of playing for a longer time period.  The second reason is harder, more violent hitting at the higher levels of play.

 

The other thing that I would like to know is more specific information about the high school players that were studied, since they are the closest thing that we have to a sample of the general population.  Were these players that played in high school, stopped playing after high school, lived their lives, and then died at a normal age?  Or were these former players that died young for some reason?  If they are players that died young, then it is possible that the reason that they have a lower rate of CTE is simply because they are younger than the other people studied.  Maybe people naturally develop CTE as they age.  It might have nothing to do with football.  On the other hand, if they died at a normal age, then it has been 50+ years since they played football.  High school football has changed quite a bit in the past 50+ years.  So I would imagine that rate will probably go up if you fast forward to the point where today's high school players are dying.

 

All of this is why numbers for sample groups that have nothing to do with football would be useful to compare against.  A random population sample, people that jog every day, people that operate jackhammers on construction sites, human cannonballs, etc.

 

There was a study that looked at high School football players from 1957.   The researchers looked at the cognition and depression scores of 3,904 people, and compared the (High School) football players to the non-football players. There was no real difference.  

 

https://www.theverge.com/2017/7/3/15913454/high-school-football-concussion-health-chronic-traumatic-encephalopathy

 

Yet, Boston University neuropathologist Ann McKee has diagnosed CTE in 90 of 94 deceased NFL players she has studied, and she told a congressional roundtable on March 14, "I unequivocally think there is a link between football and CTE."

 

in another study, of the 85 brains examined outside of the control group (84 male, 1 female, ranging from 14-98 years old), 68 were found to have CTE, including 34 former professional football players and one semi-professional football player. Fifteen of the 68 brains with CTE were in people who had played only high school football (six) or college football (nine). And it was stated the 6 high school players never played in college or professionally later.  CTE also was identified in four National Hockey League (NHL) players, one amateur hockey player, seven professional boxers, one amateur boxer, and one professional wrestler.

 

My opinion from the studies Ive read seem to point to the number of hits may be the larger trigger, and then the intensity of the hits may be secondary factor that is involved. However, there are also cases where it just doesn't happen at all, period, as I  have stated earlier.  Here's just one example-

***
Todd Ewen spent the last years of his life with a shadow over him.

 

The former NHL enforcer read the news about other hockey players who had been diagnosed with the degenerative brain disease known as CTE after they died, and he told his wife Kelli, "If they have CTE, I know I have CTE." He had memory loss and depression, and wondered if hockey had caused it. He died last September at age 49, reportedly from a self-inflicted gunshot wound. Ewen’s family decided to donate his brain to science, in the hopes of increasing awareness of how concussions might lead to CTE and later-life problems.

 

Lili-Naz Hazrati, a Toronto-based neuropathologist at the Krembil Neuroscience Centre, studied Ewen’s brain.   "We didn't find anything,"   Hazrati said. "He thought he had CTE, he was convinced. He was very afraid. That might have pushed him to do what he did."
***

To me, the number of hits, then the severity could determine those likely to develop CTE.  But more research into diagnosing and treating CTE is needed.  I even found one report where a party whom self-injurious head-banging behavior had developed CTE.  This demonstrates to me the repetitive brain trauma alone can trigger CTE in some cases.

[ColtsBlueFL]

Also-

 

"CTE has been observed in non-athletes who have experienced repetitive brain trauma, including people with epilepsy, developmentally disabled individuals with head banging, and victims of domestic violence or other physical abuse. More recently, CTE has been confirmed at autopsy in soldiers with histories of repetitive brain trauma returning from Iraq and Afghanistan. It is important to note, however, that the diagnosis of CTE is one that is confirmed at this time by autopsy and all such confirmed cases have had a history of repetitive brain trauma. This suggests that repetitive brain trauma is a necessary condition for the process that eventually leads to neurodegeneration. "

 

I do not believe there is any study that shows CTE in the population without some type of head trauma involved. - which does include people with epilepsy, developmentally disabled individuals with head banging, and victims of domestic violence or other physical abuse.

 

 

[dgambill]

This thread title is kind of a double entendre....and yet kinda accurate in both ways. "Bad data" meaning the findings are bad for football players and "bad data" in that I do think the research is very flawed and misleading. I'm not a doctor and I don't doubt that brain injuries are occurring and leading to medical issues for many athletes but its almost like saying all these dead athletes have CTE that were studied...yet only athletes that were depressed/suicidal or exhibiting brain damage were the ones used in the study....so we are making the leap that football is causing CTE yet ignoring or not studying the brains of other dead people who were depressed or exhibiting brain damage to see if they also have CTE and no links to football. Perhaps there are other underlying causes to CTE not just hits to the head. Plus not studying a wide range of players that haven't exhibited CTE symptoms who also have experienced head traumas. There is a lot of money going into this science and a lot of people getting rich off of pushing this narrative and they are using very very limited data in very very limited scope to push it. Nobody I think is saying that head traumas are good...and of course playing a sport like football is certain to lead to some....but its the stating the certainty that CTE is soley caused by these traumas and that there is no other underlying reasons for CTE that can be attributed to other outside influences or even human genetics that bothers me. I'm not saying its a witch hunt but I get the feeling that this needs a whole lot more studying to prove a + b = c.....very few things in life work that way..and I kinda doubt that is the case here too.

[crazycolt1]

27 minutes ago, dgambill said:

This thread title is kind of a double entendre....and yet kinda accurate in both ways. "Bad data" meaning the findings are bad for football players and "bad data" in that I do think the research is very flawed and misleading. I'm not a doctor and I don't doubt that brain injuries are occurring and leading to medical issues for many athletes but its almost like saying all these dead athletes have CTE that were studied...yet only athletes that were depressed/suicidal or exhibiting brain damage were the ones used in the study....so we are making the leap that football is causing CTE yet ignoring or not studying the brains of other dead people who were depressed or exhibiting brain damage to see if they also have CTE and no links to football. Perhaps there are other underlying causes to CTE not just hits to the head. Plus not studying a wide range of players that haven't exhibited CTE symptoms who also have experienced head traumas. There is a lot of money going into this science and a lot of people getting rich off of pushing this narrative and they are using very very limited data in very very limited scope to push it. Nobody I think is saying that head traumas are good...and of course playing a sport like football is certain to lead to some....but its the stating the certainty that CTE is soley caused by these traumas and that there is no other underlying reasons for CTE that can be attributed to other outside influences or even human genetics that bothers me. I'm not saying its a witch hunt but I get the feeling that this needs a whole lot more studying to prove a + b = c.....very few things in life work that way..and I kinda doubt that is the case here too.

I think you are thinking this way too much. The facts are football and it's relation to CTE and brain injury are more common in football players. There are no numbers skewed because the brains that were tested were football players. No where does it say none players. It don't take a rocket scientist to know that any sport where head injuries happen the chance for CTE and other related injuries can happen rises.

[ColtsBlueFL]

22 minutes ago, dgambill said:

This thread title is kind of a double entendre....and yet kinda accurate in both ways. "Bad data" meaning the findings are bad for football players and "bad data" in that I do think the research is very flawed and misleading. I'm not a doctor and I don't doubt that brain injuries are occurring and leading to medical issues for many athletes but its almost like saying all these dead athletes have CTE that were studied...yet only athletes that were depressed/suicidal or exhibiting brain damage were the ones used in the study....so we are making the leap that football is causing CTE yet ignoring or not studying the brains of other dead people who were depressed or exhibiting brain damage to see if they also have CTE and no links to football. Perhaps there are other underlying causes to CTE not just hits to the head. Plus not studying a wide range of players that haven't exhibited CTE symptoms who also have experienced head traumas. There is a lot of money going into this science and a lot of people getting rich off of pushing this narrative and they are using very very limited data in very very limited scope to push it. Nobody I think is saying that head traumas are good...and of course playing a sport like football is certain to lead to some....but its the stating the certainty that CTE is soley caused by these traumas and that there is no other underlying reasons for CTE that can be attributed to other outside influences or even human genetics that bothers me. I'm not saying its a witch hunt but I get the feeling that this needs a whole lot more studying to prove a + b = c.....very few things in life work that way..and I kinda doubt that is the case here too.

 

They are studying all aspects. How can you prevent something you can't truly diagnose or kow who is at risk, and those that are not?  Here is an excerpt from something I was reading not long ago-

 

"We believe one factor associated with why some are affected and others are not may be related to genes, and studies are now investigating the possible role of a genetic predisposition based on carrying the apolipoprotein E (APO E) gene, which is carried on chromosome 19 and comes in several forms, one of which is APOE4, where having the double allele is a risk factor for Alzheimer’s disease. Forty percent of those with Alzheimer’s disease have this type of allele, and thus it may be a risk factor for CTE, although the post-mortem findings suggest that the amyloid beta plaques observed in the deceased brains of those who suffered from Alzheimer’s disease, are not reported to such an extent in the deceased brains of those confirmed cases of CTE at autopsy. Having the APOE4 allele may also be associated with why some football players go on to develop neurodegenerative diseases while others do not. More research, however, is needed to make these determinations. Another area of investigation that is promising is to examine an aggregate of tau genes to determine whether or not having a particular genetic profile will lead one to being more susceptible to CTE than others who do not have such a genetic profile. Work by our laboratory, in collaboration with researchers at Boston University, is examining both APOE4 and an aggregate tau risk gene score to determine predisposing factors. The genetic susceptibility for brain tau is derived from genome wide association studies based on thousands of healthy aging individuals.  {snip}  ... "

 

One thing all research seems to point to, whether it is an athlete or not, is that repeitive brain trauma is  the cause, but not everyone with repetitive brain trauma gets CTE.  But large numbers of folks do.

 

 

[oldunclemark]

21 hours ago, BR-549 said:

You know I had that thought too that it was intentionally trying to persuade.... Hear so much talk on radio shows about letting kids play football or not... more propaganda for influencing parents.

I think the CTE danger is real...but there is some social engineering here...

Some people do not think the violent nature for football is good for boys..they'd rather not not see it.

I think there's a violent nature in all people and the contact aspect of football for boys is just an outlet...a good thing..

 

..I wish I saw a solution..obviously...continually getting hit in the head for sport leads to bad things..

...but think about all the ex-football players you see and hear on TV and radio?

I don't know why some are affected and others aren't...

[oldunclemark]

The secondary questions are:

 

If football causes brain damage later in life....do I have the choice to play anyway?

Do I have the right to trade mental health in my later years for a scholarship or a contract.?

..and with no guarantee or timetable to the damage, how old do I have to be to make that choice.?

[BR-549]

1 hour ago, oldunclemark said:

The secondary questions are:

 

If football causes brain damage later in life....do I have the choice to play anyway?

Do I have the right to trade mental health in my later years for a scholarship or a contract.?

..and with no guarantee or timetable to the damage, how old do I have to be to make that choice.?

When it comes down to it.... a life that never lives is dead.  We take on risks every day whether we know it or not and we all have our health issues or are going to.  

 

Touchy subject but I wouldn't change my life even if I end up with similar symptoms and eventually diagnosed with CTE.  I enjoyed playing football and wrestling and motocross all of which could lead to the same result.

 

Life is hard enough without adding more fear to it.  I like hunting in the mountains with mountain lions and bears, and I like driving to work vs walking .... its all relative.  

[BR-549]

2 hours ago, oldunclemark said:

I think the CTE danger is real...but there is some social engineering here...

Some people do not think the violent nature for football is good for boys..they'd rather not not see it.

I think there's a violent nature in all people and the contact aspect of football for boys is just an outlet...a good thing..

 

..I wish I saw a solution..obviously...continually getting hit in the head for sport leads to bad things..

...but think about all the ex-football players you see and hear on TV and radio?

I don't know why some are affected and others aren't...

Same reason why some get cancer and some don't.  I suppose there could be some linkable condition but who knows for sure.

 

Think about the MMA guys.... they are is going to have the same issues and maybe even at a higher rate of diagnosis.  They take some real hits to the head which are blunt, intentional and aimed to hurt.  To a lesser extent boxing too i suppose.

 

People who participate in sports are competitive and it is hard to corral that urge even if the risks are dangerous. You can't protect everyone from everything.

[oldunclemark]

I think I would tell a son of mine that I dont want you you play full contact football until you get to high school.

Play other sports.

As a high school freshman, you have some concept of the harm it can do to your body and if you still wish to play football, its up to you.

....I think that learning teamwork and being on the team..being instructed and led by men who are not your dad,  training hard and playing on Friday or Saturday in front of his friends and neighbors  in his home town is something I would not take away from him, no matter how good he is or isnt.

 

 

Edited July 29, 2017 by oldunclemark

[Chrisaaron1023]

7 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

You may have a different point of view if someone you love played high school football and suffered two serious concussions and is now affected the rest of their life.

Had I known all the facts of CTE I might have been a little less inclined to push my grandson into playing football. He could have played baseball instead.He is now 22 and cant even hold a screwdriver or write his name with a readable handwriting.

It's easy for you to dismiss all this as it means nothing to you because you want to be entertained.

I am sorry for your grandson most importantly.

 

But that's my point. I could care less about the entertainment of football. I'll find new ways to be entertained. Honestly I think I might like basketball a little more now (thanks to Tommy terrific and Evil hoody).. I'm just asking if they keep doing studies and find out that "if you play football you WILL get CTE" Are they going to cancel the NFL? Will the banish football in schools like they did dodgeball? Or we just gonna keep studying dead brains for the fun of science? 

[oldunclemark]

I think The NFL is looking for a helmet or a body suit that will prevent or limit CTE.

That seems farfetched but so do cures for cancer and Altzheimer's

The NFL is adult men,....who can kill themselves if they want to

IndyCar racing is hardly safe

 

In high school its not so much entertainment as it is participation..

The real question Is: What do high school's do about football? End it?

..and then..what do you do if you find that hitting a soccer ball with your head affects you later in life?

[Chrisaaron1023]

7 hours ago, MB-ColtsFan said:

Or...it gives pause to people who want to NOT have to endure the possibility of having CTE.

 

I don't know that it's creating fear as much as it is allowing athletes to make an informed decision: "Is it worth playing football if I have a high risk of getting CTE"?

I def think it's a fear thing. People react differently to all things. Obviously Junior Seau took his life sadly.. we don't know why. But how my concussed people do we know who are living perfectly normal lives. They are handling the situation differently.    

[crazycolt1]

34 minutes ago, Chrisaaron1023 said:

I am sorry for your grandson most importantly.

 

But that's my point. I could care less about the entertainment of football. I'll find new ways to be entertained. Honestly I think I might like basketball a little more now (thanks to Tommy terrific and Evil hoody).. I'm just asking if they keep doing studies and find out that "if you play football you WILL get CTE" Are they going to cancel the NFL? Will the banish football in schools like they did dodgeball? Or we just gonna keep studying dead brains for the fun of science? 

I agree the studies need to continue but the NFL has cut the last payment for the study to continue.

Why?

Is it putting out information  the NFL does not want deal with.

Is it a attempted cover up?

It's not like they don't have the money to continue to pay for the whole term agreed upon originally.

[RockThatBlue]

8 hours ago, MB-ColtsFan said:

Or...it gives pause to people who want to NOT have to endure the possibility of having CTE.

 

I don't know that it's creating fear as much as it is allowing athletes to make an informed decision: "Is it worth playing football if I have a high risk of getting CTE"?

I would imagine everyone knows football is a brutal sport before they play it. They know the risks I'm sure. If they didn't know the risks, then they probably wouldn't play football in the first place.

[oldunclemark]

14 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

I agree the studies need to continue but the NFL has cut the last payment for the study to continue.

Why?

Is it putting out information  the NFL does not want deal with.

Is it a attempted cover up?

It's not like they don't have the money to continue to pay for the whole term agreed upon originally.

 The onus is not solely on the NFL....but they are the only ones trying to do anything

Spending unlimited money on studies is not what is needed now

Spending on new techniques, new equipment and a cure is what has to continue.

 

We're looking for blame. Blame wont help the CTE victims. Cash wont even help them,

 

Edited July 30, 2017 by oldunclemark

[oldunclemark]

3 minutes ago, RockThatBlue said:

I would imagine everyone knows football is a brutal sport before they play it. They know the risks I'm sure. If they didn't know the risks, then they probably wouldn't play football in the first place.

That's a good point, Rock.

Some boys play football because it is dangerous. Not in spite of it

They want to be men. They want to take risks.

 

Safety is a huge concern and an answer to head trauma must be found.

But I dont believe that football players don't know they can be seriously hurt in any game

[RockThatBlue]

Very good discussion in this thread, btw. Haven't really seen many people debate over CTE like this. A lot of good points expressed, IMO.

[oldunclemark]

21 hours ago, southwest1 said:

I don't know why the NFL would even care what any CTE study said about brain trauma, concussions, & possible death because there will always be athletes from impoverished backgrounds who will play football in order to do anything to get out of the projects or barely scrapping by just to have a shot at a better standard of living & a more lucrative income bracket if their drive & talent is strong enough to play football at the highest level. 

 

Look, I get it, from a public relations perspective that the League has to look like they care & give a darn about safety even if they don't. For every parent that discourages their kid from playing football, there's always a surplus of players to take their place. 

I think the NFL cares..because its their business.

We like to be cynical..but what does the IHSAA or NCAA spend on concussion studies.?

Nothing, I believe.

 

The NFL takes the blame and and spends the cash because their ONLY business is football and they are trying to preserve it.

But if spending money is the barometer..no one else cares about CTE.

 

[RockThatBlue]

1 minute ago, oldunclemark said:

That's a good point, Rock.

Some boys play football because it is dangerous. Not in spite of it

They want to be men. They want to take risks.

 

Safety is a huge concern and an answer to head trauma must be found.

But I dont believe that football players don't know they can be seriously hurt in any game

I mean, football has been a brutal sport for 50+ years. How could someone not know you may take some brutal head shots by now? Hell, the brutality of the game is a big reason why people even like watching it.

[ColtsBlueFL]

2 hours ago, RockThatBlue said:

I mean, football has been a brutal sport for 50+ years. How could someone not know you may take some brutal head shots by now? Hell, the brutality of the game is a big reason why people even like watching it.

 

Of course it is known to be a 'collison' sport. What was not known (to the players) was that some 10-20 years after they stopped playing they would suffer symptoms such as-

 

• Difficulty thinking (cognitive impairment)
• Impulsive behavior
• Depression or apathy
• Short-term memory loss
• Difficulty planning and carrying out tasks (executive function)
• Emotional instability
• Substance abuse
• Suicidal thoughts or behavior

 

Other suspected symptoms may include:

• Irritability
• Aggression
• Speech and language difficulties
• Motor impairment, such as difficulty walking, tremor, loss of muscle movement, weakness or rigidity
• Trouble swallowing (dysphagia)
• Vision and focusing problems
• Trouble with sense of smell (olfactory abnormalities)
• Dementia

 

a 1 Billion dollar concussion lawsuit settlement between the NFL and players was just implemented.  Players have until August 17, 2017 to register-

 

https://www.nflconcussionsettlement.com/

 

[oldunclemark]

This may not surprise you ....

But over 100 years ago, due to many injuries and deaths in football, President Roosevelt convened a commission to look at the sport. It was considered too brutal and barbaric.

In 1905, over 150 boys were seriously injured playing high school and college football. 18 were killed. 45 players died from 1900-to-1905.

Mostly from head and neck injuries or broken backs.

 

Roosevelt loved football and, while he called for the investigation,  he is credited with saving the sport. Along  with the advent of the forward pass which lessened the constant violence at the line of scrimmage.

 

Ironic, huh?

Edited July 30, 2017 by oldunclemark
spell

[IinD]

It's a job hazard unfortunately. You could be screwed up for life. Sadly, I equate it to something like heavy industry type jobs. You know something bad can happen during or after you stop working.

 

I do feel for these guys because you can adapt to having a bum knee or back as you get older, must be so tough to not be able to 'function' properly in life so to say.

 

[Chrisaaron1023]

7 hours ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

Of course it is known to be a 'collison' sport. What was not known (to the players) was that some 10-20 years after they stopped playing they would suffer symptoms such as-

 

• Difficulty thinking (cognitive impairment)
• Impulsive behavior
• Depression or apathy
• Short-term memory loss
• Difficulty planning and carrying out tasks (executive function)
• Emotional instability
• Substance abuse
• Suicidal thoughts or behavior

 

Other suspected symptoms may include:

• Irritability
• Aggression
• Speech and language difficulties
• Motor impairment, such as difficulty walking, tremor, loss of muscle movement, weakness or rigidity
• Trouble swallowing (dysphagia)
• Vision and focusing problems
• Trouble with sense of smell (olfactory abnormalities)
• Dementia

Not trying to be insensitive, I really do feel bad for these people that struggle with this. This sounded exactly like a medical commercial; at the end when they try to "cover their butt" with possible side affects to said drugs. 

 

How many non football players, non CTE people do we know who suffer from this? I agree while it's sad. I'm sorry, but there's a bigger issue here. 

[ColtsBlueFL]

2 hours ago, Chrisaaron1023 said:

Not trying to be insensitive, I really do feel bad for these people that struggle with this. This sounded exactly like a medical commercial; at the end when they try to "cover their butt" with possible side affects to said drugs. 

 

How many non football players, non CTE people do we know who suffer from this? I agree while it's sad. I'm sorry, but there's a bigger issue here. 

 

All of this points to one thing, there is a problem, and a need to investigate for more and better data. For now, the scope and implications are still under investigation. McKee and other Neuropathologists understand this. I haven't seen any of them claim otherwise at this point.  In fact, in their latest paper, it states “Estimates of prevalence cannot be concluded or implied from this sample,” adding that the latest data don’t allow for any “estimation of the risk of participation in football and neuropathological outcomes.” By the same token, nobody can deny that a problem has been uncovered (the very first NFL CTE case was discovered in 2002) and the more they dig, the more they find.

 

As far as the NFL and players (now and in the future) it is important becasue a settlement for concussions was reached (2103)'before' the NFL finally conceded (2016) there was a link of concussions to degenerative brain disease, CTE.  Now players won't be compensated for that, presently and in the future.  Read this-

 

"Why the NFL can finally admit football causes CTE and not owe players anything
The NFL is finally copping to CTE now that it's not liable for it."

 

https://www.sbnation.com/2016/4/18/11451036/nfl-concussion-settlement-cte

 

Now NFL players have to decide whether to proceed with a career knowing what might happen to their future quality of living, and not be compensated for any deterioration, just receive compensation only for their play while active.

 

But as I've pointed out before, it is not just NFL, it is also boxing, hockey, MMA, wrestling, soccer players, military prsonnel, etc.. that have been proven to be subjected to repeated head trauma, that can develop CTE.  There is not a single report anywhere of someone, anyone, getting CTE and not have been exposed to some type of repeated head trauma.  If you can find one... post it here for all to see.

 

The idea is, find a way to truly and fully diagnose the onset of this disease, and then find ways to treat it.  For now, here are just three HOF players currently living that come as close to being positively diagnosed with CTE as I can find -

 

http://www.espn.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/9931754/former-nfl-stars-tony-dorsett-leonard-marshall-joe-delameilleure-show-indicators-cte-resulting-football-concussions

 

This is a bigger issue here, bigger than football, and more than just the NFL. I don't think you see it.  For the sake of the players and the game (and all others in similar circumstances), I hope the researches make significant advances in the diagnosis and treatment of those that may be subject to CTE.

 

[Lucky Colts Fan]

8 hours ago, IinD said:

I do feel for these guys because you can adapt to having a bum knee or back as you get older, must be so tough to not be able to 'function' properly in life so to say.

 

I was thinking the same thing because I was thinking about Freeman the Falcons RB taking out a $10 million insurance policy recently.  Insurance can help if you need a knee replacement, but you can't get a brain replacement.

[oldunclemark]

 Is it fair to ask why the NFLPA does not fund care for players with debilitating physical problems independent of the NFL?

 

Unions take care of their own

[NFLfan]

On 7/28/2017 at 7:14 PM, RockThatBlue said:

Thats exactly what it is, in my opinion. I could be wrong, but I'm always skeptical about things like this.

 

I would be more open to this stuff if more studies were done on other sports. Football is a brutal sport, but its not the only sport where people hit each other. For instance, theres hitting in Boxing, Soccer, hell Rugby and Hockey are pretty violent sports in their own right,but you never see a bunch of studies pushed about those sports. Its always football, or it at least seems that way.

 

There are many studies with soccer players who have similar clinical symptoms. Most of us don't follow soccer much; so we don't hear about these studies. In Italy, a much higher than normal amount of soccer players have been diagnosed with ALS. They believe it might be related to head trauma sustained when heading the ball. They are also looking into other possible reasons. Some soccer players have been diagnosed with CTE.

 

The number of NFL players that have ALS is also high. I believe that is related to head trauma and most likely CTE. 

 

http://www.al.com/alabamafootball/index.ssf/2016/11/new_details_show_unprecedented.html

 

Dwight Clark recently shared that he has ALS.  Steve Gleason, OJ Brigance, and many that we don't know are also suffering with ALS. At least 3 former Vikings players have been diagnosed with ALS (Fred McNeil, Wally Hilgenberg, and Orlando Thomas, all deceased now.) ALS is one of the most debilitating conditions. Some with ALS cannot move even their heads. Some cannot talk or eat. This from the spouse of a former Vikings player Wally Hilgenberg:

 

"The death that Wally had was horrendous," she said. "By the time he died, he could only blink his eyes and he was defenseless against a fly. If a fly landed on him, he couldn't move it. And this was all for the game of football."

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2017/07/29/wally-hilgenbergs-widow-hopes-to-keep-kids-playing-football/104100660/

[ColtsBlueFL]

1 hour ago, NFLfan said:

 

There are many studies with soccer players who have similar clinical symptoms. Most of us don't follow soccer much; so we don't hear about these studies. In Italy, a much higher than normal amount of soccer players have been diagnosed with ALS. They believe it might be related to head trauma sustained when heading the ball. They are also looking into other possible reasons. Some soccer players have been diagnosed with CTE.

 

The number of NFL players that have ALS is also high. I believe that is related to head trauma and most likely CTE. 

 

http://www.al.com/alabamafootball/index.ssf/2016/11/new_details_show_unprecedented.html

 

Dwight Clark recently shared that he has ALS.  Steve Gleason, OJ Brigance, and many that we don't know are also suffering with ALS. At least 3 former Vikings players have been diagnosed with ALS (Fred McNeil, Wally Hilgenberg, and Orlando Thomas, all deceased now.) ALS is one of the most debilitating conditions. Some with ALS cannot move even their heads. Some cannot talk or eat. This from the spouse of a former Vikings player Wally Hilgenberg:

 

"The death that Wally had was horrendous," she said. "By the time he died, he could only blink his eyes and he was defenseless against a fly. If a fly landed on him, he couldn't move it. And this was all for the game of football."

 

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2017/07/29/wally-hilgenbergs-widow-hopes-to-keep-kids-playing-football/104100660/

 

 

Nice post.  In addition, here is a Time article on ALS and motor-neuron disorders.  It mentions Lou Gehrig may not have even died of Lou Gehrig's disease (ALS, and we'll never know for certain, he was cremated after his death) named after him-

 

http://content.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,2011489,00.html

[oldunclemark]

12 hours ago, IinD said:

It's a job hazard unfortunately. You could be screwed up for life. Sadly, I equate it to something like heavy industry type jobs. You know something bad can happen during or after you stop working.

 

I do feel for these guys because you can adapt to having a bum knee or back as you get older, must be so tough to not be able to 'function' properly in life so to say.

 

You shouldn't be a coal miner either...its going to kill you

But can you make men and boys stop?

 

I guess folks don't care because nobody watches coal miners