Peyton will return to MVP Form in 2012

[Gramz]

Interesting article for those still interested:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1216985-denver-broncos-why-peyton-manning-will-return-to-mvp-form-in-2012

[FireJimCaldwell]

Interesting article for those still interested:

http://bleacherrepor...vp-form-in-2012

Yeah, I feel sorry for those betting against him.

[Jay Kirk]

Thanks for posting the link Gramz

[Gavin]

A good read, I hope he makes a full recovery

[Fx Stryker]

Who wants to bet the 2012 and 2013 MVP will be Peyton? He does win them in twos.

[Gavin]

Who wants to bet the 2012 and 2013 MVP will be Peyton? He does win them in twos.

I think he may have one more left in him but I dont think it will be this year, maybe comeback player of the year but not MVP, maybe next year but after that I think those days are over, of course I could be wrong, I just want to see him do well

[The Peytonator]

I have no doubt he will return to MVP form, but I do have my doubts about that supposedly quality team they have in Denver. I know, Tim Tebow, blah blah blah......they could win with him, but they were playing backyard, scrappy football, and they also had a good dose of divine intervention. With Big P they have to play a much different, and more disciplined game. I'd like for him to win another SB before he's done, but I just really don't see it there......should have went to Frisco.

[southwest1]

" He is such a cerebral quarterback, his play does not demand incredible physicality. He beats teams primarily with his mind and his preparation. The man knows what the defense is trying to accomplish before they even try, recognizes the defensive scheme’s weaknesses pre-snap and executes...His talent, intelligence, leadership qualities and, most importantly, work ethic will always put him and his team in a position to win a lot of games."

This is the reason, I affectionately call Peyton Yoda. His remarkable talent between the ears & his amazing ability to make an opposing team expose their defensive shell as NFL Hall Of Fame LB Ray Lewis has said many times before. "The Sheriff" will dazzle us all in Denver just like he did in INDY for over a decade. My intuition tells me 2013 will be his SuperBowl run NOT this season. Never underestimate Yoda. Nice topic Gramz. Good job!!!

[Fx Stryker]

Dan Patrick just compared LeBron James to Peyton Manning.

[subvet]

If the Broncos get back to the playoffs and Peyton avoids injury he is a lock for MVP, no way around it....and he gets a ring if not this year then next.

[subvet]

Dan Patrick just compared LeBron James to Peyton Manning.

Why? LeBron is a headline grabbing money grubbing, soulless demon. Peyton is not.

[Fx Stryker]

Why? LeBron is a headline grabbing money grubbing, soulless demon. Peyton is not.

Also one is good at their profession. The other isn't.

[Gavin]

Also one is good at their profession. The other isn't.

well I wouldnt go as far to say Lebron isn't good he just isn't close to Micheal good or not close to clutch

[NewColtsFan]

Not to offend as I mean no disrespect.... but I don't think the odds are poor for Peyton to reach MVP form this season.

First, his health. It's not clear yet how he'll hold up over a full season. Whatever he's shown so far is nothing to the demands that are coming.

Second, he doesn't have the pieces around him that he had when he was dominating here. Where are the Harrison's, the Wayne's, the Clark's, the Edgerrin James'.... etc. etc.

Third, the schedule. Denver has one of **the** toughest schedules this year. It'll be tough to win 10 games. It's much, much harder than the Indy schedule. The NFL did not do Denver any favors.

Fourth, the coaches are kinda making this all up on the fly.... they're all figuring this out every day, piece by piece. And they're pretty open about it.

All of this combined makes for an incredibly difficult season ahead for Peyton. Not to say he won't have a very good year. I think he will. But the MVP comes only after an exceptional season, and I think there are just too many things that have to go right for the Broncos for Peyton to reach that level.

Apologies for dumping a bucket of cold water all over everyone....

Just my hunch.... I could easily be wrong.... and often am!

[Gramz]

Apologies for dumping a bucket of cold water all over everyone....

Perfect timing... I was having a "hot flash" so the cold water felt great.

[OZOC01]

If McGhee has another year of running ability left in him a BIG if), the offense will be fine. And Denver's defense is better than any defense that has ever supported Peyton in Indy.

[MIColtsFan]

Dan Patrick just compared LeBron James to Peyton Manning.

yes, that prime time show PM held for all the teams interested in him had me glued to my TV

really Dan?

[MIColtsFan]

If anyone can do it and rally a team it's Peyton.... it's impossible not to be a fan, he's brilliant! I hope he is back in full form and the competition he can bring will make the season all the more exciting.. get those axes grinding!

[COLTS7]

What's different this year for #18, nothing...except, he will be paying with a chip on his shoulder, if anybody knows Peyton, that is bad news for the other 31 teams..............he is on a mission...............almost hard to even imagine, he will take his game...........up-another level-I guarantee it!

[oldunclemark]

Dan Patrick just compared LeBron James to Peyton Manning.

Its a weak minded thought because Manning never had any problems showing up in the 4th quarter.

[hawkeyes]

Its a weak minded thought because Manning never had any problems showing up in the 4th quarter.

Least when Lebron accepted a big paycheck, he showed up to work vs taking the year off with pay. ;)

[oldunclemark]

Least when Lebron accepted a big paycheck, he showed up to work vs taking the year off with pay. ;)

and both of them do always run into annoying teams from New England.

[21isSuperman]

Dan Patrick just compared LeBron James to Peyton Manning.

And with that, Dan Patrick loses all credibility.

[FireJimCaldwell]

Not to offend as I mean no disrespect.... but I don't think the odds are poor for Peyton to reach MVP form this season.

First, his health. It's not clear yet how he'll hold up over a full season. Whatever he's shown so far is nothing to the demands that are coming.

Second, he doesn't have the pieces around him that he had when he was dominating here. Where are the Harrison's, the Wayne's, the Clark's, the Edgerrin James'.... etc. etc.

Third, the schedule. Denver has one of **the** toughest schedules this year. It'll be tough to win 10 games. It's much, much harder than the Indy schedule. The NFL did not do Denver any favors.

Fourth, the coaches are kinda making this all up on the fly.... they're all figuring this out every day, piece by piece. And they're pretty open about it.

All of this combined makes for an incredibly difficult season ahead for Peyton. Not to say he won't have a very good year. I think he will. But the MVP comes only after an exceptional season, and I think there are just too many things that have to go right for the Broncos for Peyton to reach that level.

Apologies for dumping a bucket of cold water all over everyone....

Just my hunch.... I could easily be wrong.... and often am!

1 ) Fair point, but Manning is a smart guy. He isn't going to risk his future just to prove people wrong. That isn't to say he won't/can't get hurt, but I don't see that as a bigger issue for him than for any other player whether it's another 14 year vet or some young tyke waiting to play his first down in the NFL. In my opinion he played the last part of 2006 to 2010 injured, and this most recent surgery. While I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn last night, and I don't play a doctor on TV, and I'm not even the 5th out of 5 dentists, I feel that his arm is going to be pain free for the first time in half a decade. There was a report out of Denver that he was over throwing some deep routes, which hasn't been the case recently. Don't be surprised if he's physically better than hist last 74 games(since the Redskins game/injury).

2 ) Look for Decker, Thomas, and quite possibly Tamme, to be thrust toward Pro-Bowl production. The running game he's walking into is easily the best he's been around since the day of Edge, and it might be even better than that. He's been there throwing with an working out with his new receivers and laying the ground work for their future together as he has always done. Even when things limited such work, he's put in that effort.

3 ) The schedule is what it is, nothing can be done with it. It is based on a formula and the NFL teams don't have AD's that pad the schedule, or set it up to be beneficial. He's faced 1st place schedule's the majority of his career so from that stand point it won't be anything new. He'll take it week to week, quarter to quarter(4 game blocks), and see where everything is at the end of the season. I don't see it as Super Bowl or bust. I'm sure he/they have expectations, but I look for 2013-15 to be the best 3 years of his time in Denver. Time will tell. They made the playoffs last year with Tebow at QB. Manning will improve their offense and defense, and it will make for an interesting season.

4 ) The coaches are doing what a good staff should be doing. They have their system in place and they are adding to that based on what their quarterback is good it and adding things that can help him maximize the offense. (Note that did not occur in Indy last year.) They did the same thing with Tebow last year when the added the read-option to the equation. If Arians is worth his salt, he would sit down with Luck and add some things that Luck was extremely efficient with at Stanford. It's what good coaches do. They don't just sit there and say "my way or the highway", and try to force a square peg into a round hole like Caldwell & Christensen did for the majority of the season last week.

He might win the MVP, but he'll be in the conversation. There have been years he's deserved it before and didn't win it, so that could happen again.

Dan Patrick comparing him to Lebron.

Just proof that people on TV/Radio can make ignorant statements just like fans.

[MAC]

Not to offend as I mean no disrespect.... but I don't think the odds are poor for Peyton to reach MVP form this season.

Then you agree with the OP, terrific!

First, his health. It's not clear yet how he'll hold up over a full season. Whatever he's shown so far is nothing to the demands that are coming.

The issue was whether the nerve leading to his arm had suffered permanent damage. It's blissfully apparent at this point that it has not. His neck and arm may well feel a lot better than they have since 2006 (two MVPs awards ago). The only restriction imposed by the surgery is a minor loss of range of motion up/down. The long term concern is whether adjacent levels in his neck are subject to deterioration, not whether he can "hold up over a full season".

Second, he doesn't have the pieces around him that he had when he was dominating here. Where are the Harrison's, the Wayne's, the Clark's, the Edgerrin James'.... etc. etc.

The Broncos have some highly drafted weapons who have more athletic ability than anything the Colts have had in a very long time - they've just lacked a QB who could take advantage of them. Manning improves those around him to a startling degree - including Harrison, Wayne, Clark, and James. If you like him as much as you've previously professed to, you'd understand that the level he took his game too the past few years - long after James and Harrison were gone, while Clark was often injured, and while Wayne was reduced to one of the least explosive #1 receivers in the sport - all while apparently having physical problems - was stunning. I think it FAR more likely that by the end of this season some Bronco's weapons are being anointed as "stars", than it is that they become the excuse for Peyton having difficulty.

Third, the schedule. Denver has one of **the** toughest schedules this year. It'll be tough to win 10 games. It's much, much harder than the Indy schedule. The NFL did not do Denver any favors.

The only relevance of Indy's schedule to this conversation is to note that Peyton has been playing a first place schedule in what has often been one of the most difficult divisions in the league for most of his career. It's only elevated his game in the past.

Fourth, the coaches are kinda making this all up on the fly.... they're all figuring this out every day, piece by piece. And they're pretty open about it.

It's likely that the offense will improve dramatically over time as the pieces mesh, but it's not clear what level they will start at. Looking at their schedule (and knowing Peyton, and respecting Fox and Del Rio), I think it entirely possible that they win the last nine in a row. The question in my mind is whether they slip in a win or two in those first seven games, eeking out a 10 win season, or whether they do 500 (or better) in the first 7 games, which would have them in contention for best overall record in the conference. Don't forget that the Broncos already had a much better defense and running game than anything the Colts have had in many years, and they improved both in the off-season.

All of this combined makes for an incredibly difficult season ahead for Peyton. Not to say he won't have a very good year. I think he will. But the MVP comes only after an exceptional season, and I think there are just too many things that have to go right for the Broncos for Peyton to reach that level.

Of course it's unlikely he wins the MVP award this season, but that wasn't really the issue. It's whether or not he will "return to MVP form" (IE: the level he has been playing at, and improving constantly, since 2003). It appears to me that he is healthy, and if he is healthy, he will be playing at MVP form. And if you play at MVP form long enough eventually the odds are decent that you will win an MVP.

Sorry for bringing out the blow dryer.

[DILLIGAFER]

Mac, took the words right outta my mouth! Well done sir!

[Gavin]

Then you agree with the OP, terrific!

The issue was whether the nerve leading to his arm had suffered permanent damage. It's blissfully apparent at this point that it has not. His neck and arm may well feel a lot better than they have since 2006 (two MVPs awards ago). The only restriction imposed by the surgery is a minor loss of range of motion up/down. The long term concern is whether adjacent levels in his neck are subject to deterioration, not whether he can "hold up over a full season".

The Broncos have some highly drafted weapons who have more athletic ability than anything the Colts have had in a very long time - they've just lacked a QB who could take advantage of them. Manning improves those around him to a startling degree - including Harrison, Wayne, Clark, and James. If you like him as much as you've previously professed to, you'd understand that the level he took his game too the past few years - long after James and Harrison were gone, while Clark was often injured, and while Wayne was reduced to one of the least explosive #1 receivers in the sport - all while apparently having physical problems - was stunning. I think it FAR more likely that by the end of this season some Bronco's weapons are being anointed as "stars", than it is that they become the excuse for Peyton having difficulty.

The only relevance of Indy's schedule to this conversation is to note that Peyton has been playing a first place schedule in what has often been one of the most difficult divisions in the league for most of his career. It's only elevated his game in the past.

It's likely that the offense will improve dramatically over time as the pieces mesh, but it's not clear what level they will start at. Looking at their schedule (and knowing Peyton, and respecting Fox and Del Rio), I think it entirely possible that they win the last nine in a row. The question in my mind is whether they slip in a win or two in those first seven games, eeking out a 10 win season, or whether they do 500 (or better) in the first 7 games, which would have them in contention for best overall record in the conference. Don't forget that the Broncos already had a much better defense and running game than anything the Colts have had in many years, and they improved both in the off-season.

Of course it's unlikely he wins the MVP award this season, but that wasn't really the issue. It's whether or not he will "return to MVP form" (IE: the level he has been playing at, and improving constantly, since 2003). It appears to me that he is healthy, and if he is healthy, he will be playing at MVP form. And if you play at MVP form long enough eventually the odds are decent that you will win an MVP.

Sorry for bringing out the blow dryer.

It still comes down to taking a hit, which he hasn't in well over a year now, and being on a "pitch count" isn't blissfully apparent that he hasn't suffered any nerve damage if anything its a reason to be cautious, taking a hit will be the ultimate proof, many people recover fine from surgeries of all different sorts including neck surgery but most of those dont play football

[oldunclemark]

was Peyton Manning the NFL MVP the year the Colts won the Super Bowl??

[FireJimCaldwell]

was Peyton Manning the NFL MVP the year the Colts won the Super Bowl??

No, that was the year Tomlinson had 31 td's so they gave it to him that year.

It still comes down to taking a hit, which he hasn't in well over a year now, and being on a "pitch count" isn't blissfully apparent that he hasn't suffered any nerve damage if anything its a reason to be cautious, taking a hit will be the ultimate proof, many people recover fine from surgeries of all different sorts including neck surgery but most of those dont play football

Actually it doesn't. The wrong hit could end anyones career. Manning, Luck, Tebow, Brady, whoever. He's no-more at risk o that than anyone else.

The pitch count has more to do with age than anything. Even in his final years in Indy he sought out guys like Elway & Marino that played into their late 30's to ask them about the # of throws, and actually limited his off-season throwing based on that.

[GoPats]

A little off-topic, but I don't know if there's a more compelling storyline heading into the 2012 season than how the former 4-time MVP will perform in Denver. I've kind of come full circle on Manning, from the early days (2001-2004ish) where I believed he was overrated and simply a stats machine who could not produce in the clutch, to my opinion of him now, which is one of utmost respect. For me, he's a lot like Magic Johnson... it was hard to like him during the height of the Celtics-Lakers rivalry in the 80s, but after so many great battles, the respect and admiration was the best kind - it was earned.

Even as a Pats fan I wish him health and success. It'll be interesting to see how it all goes.

[NewColtsFan]

Good posts in response..... I can see my typing mistake in my post mis-stating what I was trying to convey, but you picked up on it....

As to Manning and his health.... I wouldn't say anything is blissfully apparent. The guy is on a pitch count. He's been throwing against air.... and his injury is completely unprecedented for a quarterback. So, while I'm hopeful as a Manning fan, I'm cautious as a football fan. Recovery wise, this might go exactly as MAC predicts.... or it might not. But we're a long ways from this being a slam dunk. Completely unchartered waters, IMO.

As to MAC's other good points.... yes, Manning will make those around him better, the great one's always do.... but the timetable for when that happens is unknown... maybe this year for some, maybe next year for others.... who knows?

The tough schedule may have Peyton elevate his game, but there's still the question of everyone else. We'll see.

As to the Broncos staff.... I too like Fox, and I like Del Rio more as a coordinator than a HC. So, they should be good. How much they've improved is still open to debate.... a little? Some? A lot? I'm not sure that's clear, at least, not yet.

Ultimately, MAC is correct that the Big Picture is Manning returning to an MVP level... and wouldn't that be great for anyone who loves pro football. My only point was referencing any poster in this thread who was predicting it would happen in 2012. I like his chances more in '13 and '14 as has been stated by others....

Good thread.... always good to talk football..!

[Gavin]

No, that was the year Tomlinson had 31 td's so they gave it to him that year.

Actually it doesn't. The wrong hit could end anyones career. Manning, Luck, Tebow, Brady, whoever. He's no-more at risk o that than anyone else.

The pitch count has more to do with age than anything. Even in his final years in Indy he sought out guys like Elway & Marino that played into their late 30's to ask them about the # of throws, and actually limited his off-season throwing based on that.

a guy that has had 4 neck surgeries in less than a year is at a greater risk in my opinion, yes can any hit end anyones career, of course it can, but it is possible (not likely) that a much less severe hit can harm him much worse then say it would another Quarterback who hasn't had 4 neck surgeries, I also didn't know anything about him talking to Elway about # of throws, I still dont think Manning would limit his throws unless he was being cautious or others (Elway, Fox or others were telling him to limit the count)

[MAC]

A little off-topic, but I don't know if there's a more compelling storyline heading into the 2012 season than how the former 4-time MVP will perform in Denver. I've kind of come full circle on Manning, from the early days (2001-2004ish) where I believed he was overrated and simply a stats machine who could not produce in the clutch, to my opinion of him now, which is one of utmost respect. For me, he's a lot like Magic Johnson... it was hard to like him during the height of the Celtics-Lakers rivalry in the 80s, but after so many great battles, the respect and admiration was the best kind - it was earned.

Even as a Pats fan I wish him health and success. It'll be interesting to see how it all goes.

Which is not co-incidentally similar to how I feel about Brady. And I'm not a fan of either the Celtics or Lakers so I felt no particularly loyalty to either, but the battles were one of the best things to ever happen to the league, and the two are inexorably linked. So will Manning and Brady. Here's hoping the battle resumes at it's previous standards and continues for years to come.

[FireJimCaldwell]

a guy that has had 4 neck surgeries in less than a year is at a greater risk in my opinion, yes can any hit end anyones career, of course it can, but it is possible (not likely) that a much less severe hit can harm him much worse then say it would another Quarterback who hasn't had 4 neck surgeries, I also didn't know anything about him talking to Elway about # of throws, I still dont think Manning would limit his throws unless he was being cautious or others (Elway, Fox or others were telling him to limit the count)

His neck is structurally sound.

The issue at hand was the nerve regeneration and whether or not it would allow him to throw like he used to. All signs and the magic 8 ball point to yes.

As I said before, he dialed that back years ago. ( It isn't breaking news at this point).

[Gavin]

His neck is structurally sound.

The issue at hand was the nerve regeneration and whether or not it would allow him to throw like he used to. All signs and the magic 8 ball point to yes.

As I said before, he dialed that back years ago. ( It isn't breaking news at this point).

What I mean is this, many can pass a ball after a major surgery to the neck but will his full strength return and if and likely when that arm takes a shot, how will it respond also if he to only X number of practice snaps and throws, why did we hear of him not letting his backups take any practice snaps with the 1st team, I wish Manning the best, he is one of the greatest of all time but I think some are putting the cart before the horse or in other words hoping he is back to the old Peyton (I certainly hope he is) but

down playing the chances of that arm returning to normal and how dangerous that could be for Peyton but like I said I hope he returns to what he was before the surgeries and both sides can move on and thrive eventually

[MAC]

a guy that has had 4 neck surgeries in less than a year is at a greater risk in my opinion, yes can any hit end anyones career, of course it can, but it is possible (not likely) that a much less severe hit can harm him much worse then say it would another Quarterback who hasn't had 4 neck surgeries, I also didn't know anything about him talking to Elway about # of throws, I still dont think Manning would limit his throws unless he was being cautious or others (Elway, Fox or others were telling him to limit the count)

Your opinion isn't supported by medical fact in that there is no cumulative effect due to the number of surgeries. Three of them were addressing the same problem - successfully. The only thing that I would be concerned about are the adjacent levels, particularly if that "fourth" surgery (which they haven't been too specific about) reflects the risk of another rupture. But I'd be willing to bet that every QB in the league who plays to his age has some damage to the neck - it comes with the territory. The key thing is that the level that was operated on is structural sound. I had the same surgery, and while I can't tell you that I haven't had further issues, mine was an arthritic deterioration - not an injury, and I'm not a professional athlete. I had no rehab. Peyton's neck is VERY likely stronger than one of my thighs! I don't believe that he is fragile in the way you describe.

As far as limiting throws, this was something that was talked about in years past (FJC is absolutely correct - I remember the stories) and common sense suggests that one of the reasons he initiated it was because he was in discomfort because of his neck having been injured years ago. He doesn't appear to be in discomfort know, and he has been throwing furiously since the moment his doctors allowed it. I haven't heard a thing about recent "pitch counts', just about his extensive off-season work to acclimate himself to the new receivers.

[FireJimCaldwell]

Your opinion isn't supported by medical fact in that there is no cumulative effect due to the number of surgeries. Three of them were addressing the same problem - successfully. The only thing that I would be concerned about are the adjacent levels, particularly if that "fourth" surgery (which they haven't been too specific about) reflects the risk of another rupture. But I'd be willing to bet that every QB in the league who plays to his age has some damage to the neck - it comes with the territory. The key thing is that the level that was operated on is structural sound. I had the same surgery, and while I can't tell you that I haven't had further issues, mine was an arthritic deterioration - not an injury, and I'm not a professional athlete. I had no rehab. Peyton's neck is VERY likely stronger than one of my thighs! I don't believe that he is fragile in the way you describe.

As far as limiting throws, this was something that was talked about in years past (FJC is absolutely correct - I remember the stories) and common sense suggests that one of the reasons he initiated it was because he was in discomfort because of his neck having been injured years ago. He doesn't appear to be in discomfort know, and he has been throwing furiously since the moment his doctors allowed it. I haven't heard a thing about recent "pitch counts', just about his extensive off-season work to acclimate himself to the new receivers.

The pitch count comes from this

http://broncotalk.net/2012/06/37426/broncos-news/broncos-have-manning-on-pitch-count/

Manning’s workload is being watched by head athletic trainer Steve “Greek” Antonopulos, who is monitoring the quarterback’s rehab along with strength and conditioning coach Luke Richesson.

“Greek and (Manning) have sat down and determined how long he can go, how many throws he can make each week,” McCoy said. “But the mental challenge … we’re throwing everything at him like every other player and as we go his reps will increase.”

Greek may be limiting Manning’s quantity of throws, but McCoy insists they’re not limiting the quality.

“No he’s fine. He can do everything.”

[FireJimCaldwell]

This is pre-injury, and while it's not the verification of him contacting Elway/Marino/others, it's hard to dig stuff up from that long ago.

It shows that he dialed it back and this was before the 2006 season.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=2451796

One concession that Manning has made to age this year is in his offseason throwing program. Quarterbacks coach Jim Caldwell suggested Manning rest his arm for a few months and, after the season, the Colts' star did not throw until May 1. For an acknowledged gym rat, and one of the NFL's hardest and most diligent workers, the withdrawal was a difficult one, and Manning allowed there were times he thought "they were going to have to put me in a straitjacket."

The time off, though, has served Manning well. In the Friday minicamp practice, he threw with velocity and, as always, great accuracy.

"Because I take so many snaps in the season, most of the snaps even in practice, this is probably a smart thing," Manning said. "You want your arm to be live during the season, and it feels really good."

[MAC]

What I mean is this, many can pass a ball after a major surgery to the neck but will his full strength return and if and likely when that arm takes a shot, how will it respond also if he to only X number of practice snaps and throws, why did we hear of him not letting his backups take any practice snaps with the 1st team, I wish Manning the best, he is one of the greatest of all time but I think some are putting the cart before the horse or in other words hoping he is back to the old Peyton (I certainly hope he is) but

down playing the chances of that arm returning to normal and how dangerous that could be for Peyton but like I said I hope he returns to what he was before the surgeries and both sides can move on and thrive eventually

I don't think that his arm taking a shot has much to do with it. The injury to the nerve that impacted the arm was in his neck, not the arm. His arm is no more at risk to getting hit than any other QB.

The Broncos also may have backups take more snaps as an organizational decision. After all, they drafted a QB very highly this year - I doubt that they intend to let him rot on the bench.

[Gavin]

This is pre-injury, and while it's not the verification of him contacting Elway/Marino/others, it's hard to dig stuff up from that long ago.

It shows that he dialed it back and this was before the 2006 season.

http://sports.espn.g...tory?id=2451796

I wasn't speaking of the offseason snaps I was speaking of the snaps that he is taking now during practices and OTA's that he is on a limited pitch count that is different then giving your arm rest during the offseason