Frank fired by Panthers (Merged)

[rockywoj]

2 hours ago, Jonmal7 said:

Im not surprised. Pathers had 9th overall pick last year, now this year they are worst in the league. We went from bottom tier last year to a positive record in a wildcard after 12 weeks. Dude needs to stay as an OC. Hes not HC material.

I fear when it come to OCing, the modern game has passed him by.  Maybe back to being a QB coach. 

[rockywoj]

47 minutes ago, RollerColt said:

And that alone shows me he has no moral character. His fortune is all about luck and preying on those less fortunate. 

Just curious, how is running a hedge fund preying upon those less fortunate?  As a finance grad, I am trying to understand that (misconception)?

[RollerColt]

Quote

Out of 431 qualified QB seasons since 2011, Bryce Young is currently 431st in Yards/Dropback.

 

Young is having a season statistically worse than Josh Rosen who was dumped after the season, and led the Cardinals to Kyler Murray.

 

No QB below 300 has ever played out their rookie deal.

*Credit to Ash_713S of the Panthers Reddit. 

[RollerColt]

3 minutes ago, rockywoj said:

Just curious, how is running a hedge fund preying upon those less fortunate?  As a finance grad, I am trying to understand that (misconception)?

Short selling for me. 

 

Not to mention that to me a lot of that financial stuff is playing with imaginary money. To each their own, but for me personally it doesn't scream honest day's work. Seems more like a calculated gambling day job. 

[Indyfan4life]

I think Frank needs to step away from football for a year or so. 

[Superman]

1 hour ago, Lancer1 said:

So now Frank is being paid not to coach 2 different teams - humiliating, but financially profitable. 

 

Nah, his Colts' salary was more than likely offset by his Panthers' salary. I don't think the Colts are paying Reich anything.

[RollerColt]

1 minute ago, Indyfan4life said:

I think Frank needs to step away from football for a year or so. 

I agree. I think honestly he should just go back to seminary stuff. Religion is his true passion. Nothing wrong with that, but it doesn't seem to work for being an all-in head coach. 

[rockywoj]

8 minutes ago, RollerColt said:

Short selling for me. 

 

Not to mention that to me a lot of that financial stuff is playing with imaginary money. To each their own, but for me personally it doesn't scream honest day's work. Seems more like a calculated gambling day job. 

I see no ill morality in short selling or long selling. Both of those are mere “hedging” techniques meant to reduce volatility.  When applying leverage on such hedging techniques, risk is greatly magnified, but so are potential gains.  Hedging is morality neutral. 
 

Like value investing, or growth investing, it’s all just a variety of investing techniques.  There is zero about it that is in and of itself dishonest. 
 

<Sorry, gotta go into airplane mode for the next 5 hours>

[Superman]

1 hour ago, RollerColt said:

You can scheme to an extent, but in the NFL it's not usually enough. You've got to have playmakers. 

 

It would really help if people watched some of the breakdowns of the Panthers offense. Yeah, they have no playmakers, but their scheme is dreadful. It's like Reich took the very worst stuff from the Wentz/Ryan years and made it his entire offensive playbook. 

[RollerColt]

Just now, Superman said:

 

It would really help if people watched some of the breakdowns of the Panthers offense. Yeah, they have no playmakers, but their scheme is dreadful. It's like Reich took the very worst stuff from the Wentz/Ryan years and made it his entire offensive playbook. 

I painfully watched the all-22 from the Colts game on the Panthers perspective. You've read my posts from a few weeks ago on my opinion of Reich's scheme. Antiquated is the nicest I can say. 

 

I was honestly shocked at how bad his offense was by design. All go routes with lazy turnarounds to park and sit at the 1st down marker. Way too predictable and easy for even our vanilla defense to feast on. 

 

Was Reich honestly that blind that he didn't change a single thing he learned from coaching us for years? I think partially yes. But I also think Young just doesn't have an NFL level arm to open up the field. He checks down constantly. 

 

It was a perfect storm of terrible decisions that led to today. 

[Superman]

1 hour ago, Shive said:

The prevailing rumor is that Frank wanted Stroud, but Tepper wanted Young and forced the pick.

 

Based on the scenes we saw of the Panthers' staff with Stroud at his pro-day, I thought it was a foregone conclusion that they were taking Stroud, which makes me believe those rumors are true. Add in how much of an impatient meddler Tepper is. Add to it that he just fired the HC and Asst Coach of his MLS team after they made the playoffs in the team's first season in existence. Dude made his money as a hedge fund manager, so he expects immediate results and hasn't shown the ability for having the patience needed to build a successful sports team. Carolina will be the worst team in the league year after year until Tepper steps back from personnel decisions.

 

I'm still waiting for some evidence -- something that goes beyond rumor and intuition -- that Reich didn't want Bryce Young.

 

People have bit down so hard on this rumor, and are now running with it as if it's fact.

[2006Coltsbestever]

47 minutes ago, shakedownstreet said:

 

 

That is George Washington with a nice haircut 

[RollerColt]

4 minutes ago, rockywoj said:

I see no ill morality in short selling or long selling. Both of those are mere “hedging” techniques meant to reduce volatility.  When applying leverage on such hedging techniques, risk is greatly magnified, but so are potential gains.  Hedging is morality neutral. 

That's fair and fine. I still don't like Tepper. Still don't think he's an honest worker. Still believe he has no clue on how to run a football team. 

 

Best thing he can do for Carolina is to literally shut up and sit back. He'll literally make millions upon millions just by doing nothing. Imagine having that kind of luxury...

[PRnum1]

23 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

That is where the problem started IMO. When Tepper stepped in and they drafted Young. Panthers were doomed chemistry wise from there. I will admit, I thought Young would be good, that his size would not matter. That is really the only bad prediction I have made all season regarding Young and thinking the Panthers would be good enough to win that weak division.

Young could be good.

 

He doesn't have much of an oline or WR's to throw to.

 

And it could be Franks system as well,

 

I think its still to early to tell with Young

[Superman]

1 minute ago, RollerColt said:

I painfully watched the all-22 from the Colts game on the Panthers perspective. You've read my posts from a few weeks ago on my opinion of Reich's scheme. Antiquated is the nicest I can say. 

 

I was honestly shocked at how bad his offense was by design. All go routes with lazy turnarounds to park and sit at the 1st down marker. Way too predictable and easy for even our vanilla defense to feast on. 

 

Was Reich honestly that blind that he didn't change a single thing he learned from coaching us for years? I think partially yes. But I also think Young just doesn't have an NFL level arm to open up the field. He checks down constantly. 

 

It was a perfect storm of terrible decisions that led to today. 

 

It's probably best for everyone involved. I think Young will have a rough time making it in the NFL, but if he's going to have a chance it needs to be with an innovative offensive coach. And I think the Reich/Tepper match was a bad fit, and I thought that when he was hired. (Anyone with Tepper is probably a bad fit, TBH.)

[John Waylon]

Shocking. Absolutely shocking, I say. We haven’t seen anything this shocking since the sun rose in the East this morning, and dare I say we won’t see anything this shocking again until it goes down to the West this afternoon. 
 

[Superman]

2 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

I just want them to pay Frank his money.   That’s all I care about at this point. 

 

Why are you worried about his money? Unless he was fired with cause -- like Gruden, for example -- there's no reason to think he won't be paid. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

6 minutes ago, PRnum1 said:

Young could be good.

 

He doesn't have much of an oline or WR's to throw to.

 

And it could be Franks system as well,

 

I think its still to early to tell with Young

It is too early to tell but to my knowledge, Frank wanted Stroud.

[NewColtsFan]

6 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Why are you worried about his money? Unless he was fired with cause -- like Gruden, for example -- there's no reason to think he won't be paid. 

I don’t trust Pepper.   Not as far as I can throw him.   If he can find a way to turn this into with cause, I fear he will.   I’d be very happy to be wrong.  

[2006Coltsbestever]

9 minutes ago, John Waylon said:

Shocking. Absolutely shocking, I say. We haven’t seen anything this shocking since the sun rose in the East this morning, and dare I say we won’t see anything this shocking again until it goes down to the West this afternoon. 
 

[FanFromtheWasteland]

2 hours ago, Jonmal7 said:

Im not surprised. Pathers had 9th overall pick last year, now this year they are worst in the league. We went from bottom tier last year to a positive record in a wildcard after 12 weeks. Dude needs to stay as an OC. Hes not HC material.

I think he needs to concentrate on being a head coach and stop trying to run the whole show

[NewColtsFan]

4 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

It is too early to tell but to my knowledge, Frank wanted Stroud.

I don’t believe Frank ever said that.   I’ve never seen a story saying that.  Hard to think he’d say that before the team drafts Young.    Posters here have speculated Frank wanted Stroud, but I’m not aware of any evidence that proves that.   All speculation. 

[RollerColt]

2 minutes ago, FanFromtheWasteland said:

I think he needs to concentrate on being a head coach and stop trying to run the whole show

And Tepper needs to be a regular owner who lets his staff work. What owner goes to all of the NFL draft prospects private workouts? 

 

Not even Jerry and Jim do that kind of stuff. 

[Mr. Irrelevant]

21 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

It's like Reich took the very worst stuff from the Wentz/Ryan years and made it his entire offensive playbook. 

That is the very definition of depression, right there.

 

[RollerColt]

17 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

It's probably best for everyone involved. I think Young will have a rough time making it in the NFL, but if he's going to have a chance it needs to be with an innovative offensive coach. And I think the Reich/Tepper match was a bad fit, and I thought that when he was hired. (Anyone with Tepper is probably a bad fit, TBH.)

Very much so. 

 

Reich tried to force Young into an offense built around the types of players like Wentz and Ryan. I guess large egos never truly die when you think your way is the only way... 

 

Just incredible to look around the league and think to yourself, naw my scheme will be just fine for Young... 

[Superman]

4 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 Posters here have speculated Frank wanted Stroud, but I’m not aware of any evidence that proves that.   All speculation. 

 

Speculation on steroids, which is somehow now being referred to as "knowledge." 

 

I'm not saying Reich wanted Young, or didn't want Stroud, but no one knows, despite their insistence.

 

8 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

I don’t trust Pepper.   Not as far as I can throw him.   If he can find a way to turn this into with cause, I fear he will.   I’d be very happy to be wrong.  

 

I was wondering if Matt Rhule is getting paid from the Panthers. It's complicated. He received an eight year contract to become the Nebraska HC, and there are offset provisions, like basically every NFL coach contract. But apparently Rhule's Nebraska contract is structured in way that was meant to have his early years compensation be at a lower rate. That would mean for the remaining years on the Panthers' contract, the Panthers would still owe him money. Then in later years, the Nebraska compensation increases. 

 

So there's a dispute between Rhule and the Panthers. Rhule claims the Panthers owe him money. The Panthers claim the yearly average of his Nebraska contract should offset the remaining Panthers money. And based on what I've just read, I think the Panthers have a reasonable argument. It seems like the Nebraska contract was specifically structured NOT to offset the remaining years on the Panthers contract. I don't see news of a resolution for this dispute. (Link and snippet below.)

 

If you already don't trust/like Tepper, this might not help. But I think the Panthers have a reasonable argument in this case. 

 

If Reich doesn't take a highly paid job -- and who's offering that at this point?? -- I don't see where the Panthers can try to wriggle away from their obligation to pay him. I guess they can try, but it's pretty obvious why Reich was fired. There's no scandal, there was no insubordination, no legal issues. I'm pretty confident this is a run-of-the-mill firing, and he'll get paid.

 

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/former-panthers-head-coach-matt-rhule-filed-arbitration-suit-last-week-against-franchise/

 

Quote

According to a source, the Panthers will argue that Rhule's Nebraska contract violates the league's anti-tampering policy. Section 3, Article D of the policy under "CONTRACT WITH NEW CLUB/REASONABLENESS" reads:

"If the contract with the new club includes a substantial salary increase in new contract years, the Commissioner shall use the following as a guideline to determine the reasonableness of those increases: (i) if annual compensations is scheduled to increase by 20 percent or more for the new contract years, the prior club's annual offset, if that club is entitled to an offset, shall be calculated based upon the employee's average annual compensation during the entire term of contract."

The argument is that Rhule's Nebraska contract has an unreasonable increase of greater than 20 percent when factoring in deferred salary and other benefits. Though the league's anti-tampering policy makes no reference to college coaching jobs, the policy also does not make an explicit distinction as to what it means by "club."

 

[Myles]

I feel he got what he deserved.  He shouldn't have taken on the play calling again because he cannot handle it. 

[RollerColt]

1 minute ago, Myles said:

I feel he got what he deserved.  He shouldn't have taken on the play calling again because he cannot handle it. 

And he surrounded himself with the highest paid staff in the NFL... So many minds, so little results... 

[sb41champs]

11 games in to season 1 shows that the owner is IMPATIENT & DESPERATE for someone to blame.

 

My thoughts & prayers go out to Frank Reich & family as they begin the next chapter of their lives!!

 

Truth told - is that Frank Reich is a better MAN than he is an NFL head coach.

 

 

[John Waylon]

2 hours ago, Indianapolis-Colts-Fan said:

Should have never been hired and never should have taken the job. 

Don’t let the stupid react detract from this post having legs. 
 

That marriage had a giant turd swimming in the punchbowl from the start. The whole world knows frank wanted Stroud, and Stroud does all of those things frank wants a QB in his system to do, and there’s not much that Stroud doesn’t do well. 
 

But the owner had to have the little guy who gets lost behind the tops of the blades of grass in front of him, and he made the call. Even if frank tried to be a good little soldier and lie to Tepper and say “yeah I can work with Young,” Tepper should have known better because the majority of frank’s tenure here was running it back trying to “make it work” with QBs and he can’t. And how has it behooved frank to keep telling the lie that he thinks he can make it work? Only a complete blithering * wouldn’t know better, or not understand it’s a lie at all at this point. 
 

Tepper was a complete derp for offering him the job to begin with, but the more frank knew he was getting young the more frank should have kept himself out of that familiar territory. 
 

The subject of trading up and who they would target had to have been broached during one of their final interviews. That’s a big move and decision to make, and a good owner/GM would want to be on the same page as his new HC to make it. If Tepper was telling frank he wanted to trade up and get Young in January during their interviews frank should have had the good sense to remove himself from the running because…

 

Quite obviously…

 

That marriage was never going to work. 

Maybe Tepper hired frank and then went total cowboy and made the trade and decided to draft Young and just dumped all that in frank’s lap and said “this is what we’re doing”. But I just don’t see that scenario playing out with a freshly hired HC. While he’s still paying big money to the previous coach he just fired. 
 

Frank deserves double culpability for any agreement he made to go along with Young over Stroud. Frank should have been waking up every single morning to fight that battle until he went to bed at night.
 

But he tried to make it work, and guess what?

 

He still can’t. 
 

[Superman]

13 minutes ago, RollerColt said:

Very much so. 

 

Reich tried to force Young into an offense built around the types of players like Wentz and Ryan. I guess large egos never truly die when you think your way is the only way... 

 

Just incredible to look around the league and think to yourself, naw my scheme will be just fine for Young... 

 

I still don't get what happened with Reich's offense. At some point, he went into a shell. The stuff we ran in 2018 with Luck, and 2020 with Rivers, wasn't stale and antiquated. It wasn't 2023 fresh, but it would have been good enough. But it seems like he got more and more basic every year since late 2021.

 

Also, even if he didn't want Bryce Young, once the decision is made, why wouldn't you try to build the offense around his strengths and talents? Why not embrace all the stuff that's working with limited passers in today's NFL? Young is at least as good as Gardner Minshew, right? The Colts can run a functional offense most of the time, and the Panthers can't get past 13 points.

 

I think the situation sucked for Reich, but I don't feel bad for him. I think he earned both of his firings. 

[Indianapolis-Colts-Fan]

4 minutes ago, John Waylon said:

Don’t let the stupid react detract from this post having legs. 
 

That marriage had a giant turd swimming in the punchbowl from the start. The whole world knows frank wanted Stroud, and Stroud does all of those things frank wants a QB in his system to do, and there’s not much that Stroud doesn’t do well. 
 

But the owner had to have the little guy who gets lost behind the tops of the blades of grass in front of him, and he made the call. Even if frank tried to be a good little soldier and lie to Tepper and say “yeah I can work with Young,” Tepper should have known better because the majority of frank’s tenure here was running it back trying to “make it work” with QBs and he can’t. And how has it behooved frank to keep telling the lie that he thinks he can make it work? Only a complete blithering * wouldn’t know better, or not understand it’s a lie at all at this point. 
 

Tepper was a complete derp for offering him the job to begin with, but the more frank knew he was getting young the more frank should have kept himself out of that familiar territory. 
 

The subject of trading up and who they would target had to have been broached during one of their final interviews. That’s a big move and decision to make, and a good owner/GM would want to be on the same page as his new HC to make it. If Tepper was telling frank he wanted to trade up and get Young in January during their interviews frank should have had the good sense to remove himself from the running because…

 

Quite obviously…

 

That marriage was never going to work. 

Maybe Tepper hired frank and then went total cowboy and made the trade and decided to draft Young and just dumped all that in frank’s lap and said “this is what we’re doing”. But I just don’t see that scenario playing out with a freshly hired HC. While he’s still paying big money to the previous coach he just fired. 
 

Frank deserves double culpability for any agreement he made to go along with Young over Stroud. Frank should have been waking up every single morning to fight that battle until he went to bed at night.
 

But he tried to make it work, and guess what?

 

He still can’t. 
 

 

with Frank what you see is what you get. Of course he jumped at the only job he was offered in the off-season. Dudes a multimillionaire so he’s got something going for him at least. But you’re spot on. 

[RollerColt]

2 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I still don't get what happened with Reich's offense. At some point, he went into a shell. The stuff we ran in 2018 with Luck, and 2020 with Rivers, wasn't stale and antiquated. It wasn't 2023 fresh, but it would have been good enough. But it seems like he got more and more basic every year since late 2021.

 

Also, even if he didn't want Bryce Young, once the decision is made, why wouldn't you try to build the offense around his strengths and talents? Why not embrace all the stuff that's working with limited passers in today's NFL? Young is at least as good as Gardner Minshew, right? The Colts can run a functional offense most of the time, and the Panthers can't get past 13 points.

 

I think the situation sucked for Reich, but I don't feel bad for him. I think he earned both of his firings. 

That's true. I think with both Rivers and Luck, they were just more naturally talented and able to play the offense in a way that worked. 

 

Young could still turn out to be good. But he's not as gifted as Luck and Rivers. And that's why Reich should've created a better plan for him. He knew the offensive line was bad, but threw Bryce into the shotgun over and over again watching him get killed. And just like with us, he just stood there looking confused as the games went on. 

 

I knew he was going to be the next mid-season firing. I actually thought he'd be gone before McDaniels, but that's for another day. I agree with you, the firing was warranted. Frank's offenses from last year to this year are among some of the worst in NFL history. 

 

And that's ridiculous to think about when he was tabbed as a QB whisperer and a great offensive mind. Looking at the grand picture of his entire coaching career, it really looks like Luck and Rivers succeeded because they were good QBs. 

[VikingsFanInChennai]

3 hours ago, #12. said:

 

Wonder if Jonathan Gannon will make it to 2024.

Gannon has done a good job actually, given the franchise QB was already injured to start the season. He (or GM) identified Joshua Dobbs as starter until Murray was ready, which was a fine decision, and got a draft pick for Dobbs immediately. They gave a great effort in all the games, even beat a high flying Cowboys and ran all over their vaunted defense. After sending some players out in defense in off-season, Gannon was able to make the defense play better than expected, which shows he's capable of that side of the ball. 

 

As a minute detail, Arizona was so bad against the TEs for last few years that fantasy managers were starting any TE against the Cardinals. And, this year their defense are one of the best against TE position. 

 

What's not to like? Their record? When the season started, many pencilled them in contention for first overall draft pick, and they have done far better. 

[RollerColt]

Just now, VikingsFanInChennai said:

Gannon has done a good job actually, given the franchise QB was already injured to start the season. He (or GM) identified Joshua Dobbs as starter until Murray was ready, which was a fine decision, and got a draft pick for Dobbs immediately. They gave a great effort in all the games, even beat a high flying Cowboys and ran all over their vaunted defense. After sending some players out in defense in off-season, Gannon was able to make the defense play better than expected, which shows he's capable of that side of the ball. 

 

As a minute detail, Arizona was so bad against the TEs for last few years that fantasy managers were starting any TE against the Cardinals. And, this year their defense are one of the best against TE position. 

 

What's not to like? Their record? When the season started, many pencilled them in top be in contention for first overall draft pick, and they have done far better. 

I agree! 

 

Ganon is for sure not the worst coach in the NFL at the moment. That would belong to Eberflus and Belichick (looking at Bill for this year only, not his entire work). 

 

Also, we'll need to move Staley up the list now that Reich is gone. The Chargers should be so much better than 4-7. 

[azcolt]

“Great” NFL coaches almost always have great qb’s. Ask Belichick if you doubt that is true. Frank may never be regarded as a great HC but give him Luck if he hadn’t walked and Frank Reich would still be employed by a playoff-off bound Colts team. Oh well, Frank will never have to worry about money so it’s hard to feel too sorry for him.

[DougDew]

22 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Speculation on steroids, which is somehow now being referred to as "knowledge." 

 

I'm not saying Reich wanted Young, or didn't want Stroud, but no one knows, despite their insistence.

 

 

I was wondering if Matt Rhule is getting paid from the Panthers. It's complicated. He received an eight year contract to become the Nebraska HC, and there are offset provisions, like basically every NFL coach contract. But apparently Rhule's Nebraska contract is structured in way that was meant to have his early years compensation be at a lower rate. That would mean for the remaining years on the Panthers' contract, the Panthers would still owe him money. Then in later years, the Nebraska compensation increases. 

 

So there's a dispute between Rhule and the Panthers. Rhule claims the Panthers owe him money. The Panthers claim the yearly average of his Nebraska contract should offset the remaining Panthers money. And based on what I've just read, I think the Panthers have a reasonable argument. It seems like the Nebraska contract was specifically structured NOT to offset the remaining years on the Panthers contract. I don't see news of a resolution for this dispute. (Link and snippet below.)

 

If you already don't trust/like Tepper, this might not help. But I think the Panthers have a reasonable argument in this case. 

 

If Reich doesn't take a highly paid job -- and who's offering that at this point?? -- I don't see where the Panthers can try to wriggle away from their obligation to pay him. I guess they can try, but it's pretty obvious why Reich was fired. There's no scandal, there was no insubordination, no legal issues. I'm pretty confident this is a run-of-the-mill firing, and he'll get paid.

 

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/former-panthers-head-coach-matt-rhule-filed-arbitration-suit-last-week-against-franchise/

 

 

Don't these rules apply when a fired coach gets hired by another team within the NFL?  Nebraska contract wouldn't have an impact on CARs NFL contract.  

 

Heck, Rhule could get hired as the CEO of Home Depot and it shouldn't affect the terms of the CAR contract?

 

I don't see the Reich/Colts/CAR situation being the same as Rhule/ CAR/ NEB.

[Superman]

3 minutes ago, RollerColt said:

Also, we'll need to move Staley up the list now that Reich is gone. The Chargers should be so much better than 4-7. 

 

I was checking for news that Staley was fired when I saw that Reich was fired... I figured Reich would last to the end of the year, but there's no real reason for them to wait.

[RollerColt]

Just now, Superman said:

 

I was checking for news that Staley was fired when I saw that Reich was fired... I figured Reich would last to the end of the year, but there's no real reason for them to wait.

I was doing the exact same thing. Went on to NFL.com expecting to see Chargers headlines and lo and behold there was the news. 

[Superman]

Just now, DougDew said:

Don't these rules apply when a fired coach gets hired by another team within the NFL?  Nebraska contract wouldn't have an impact on CARs NFL contract.  

 

Heck, Rhule could get hired as the CEO of Home Depot and it shouldn't affect the terms of the CAR contract?

 

I don't see the Reich/Colts/CAR situation being the same as Rhule/ CAR/ NEB.

 

These rules have been applied to NFL coaches who move on to college, and vice versa (Panthers paid Rhule's buyout from Baylor, for example). Apparently the NFL tampering rule doesn't explicitly state "NFL team/club," and it doesn't look like either side is taking issue with that detail.

 

The dispute in this case is entirely about the structure of Rhule's Nebraska contract -- whether there is an unreasonable increase in his future compensation (which would be designed to avoid the offset clause), and if so, should the offset be based on the yearly average rather than the current years' compensation.