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Frank fired by Panthers (Merged)


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2 hours ago, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

If you have the athletic go read this. It was so bad in Carolina.

 

 

 

Read the whole thing, that was very revealing. One unnamed player said it's not Reich's style to be overly critical of any player or position group. Some said he was more openly calling out Young's mistakes early in the season, and then pulled back as the season progressed, to protect Young's confidence. Nothing there seems surprising...

 

Also, in this whole thing, with tons of named and unnamed sources, nothing about the owner forcing the QB pick.

 

I think it's interesting that Tepper pushed Reich to hire from outside his inner circle, and how that led to some mismatched ideologies on the coaching staff. Trying to incorporate some of the Rams stuff that Thomas Brown was bringing into Reich's system didn't go well. There were competing priorities with helping Young get up to speed, and how much focus should be on him operating the offense as a rookie, vs working on his fundamentals and footwork right away. They started drilling him on footwork a few weeks ago... 

 

Not to pat myself on the back (okay, just a little), I said in my pre-draft write up that Young had an inconsistent drop back, sometimes lacking urgency in his footwork, and I wondered if it would be an issue. That's something that was a point of contention among the staff. And Tepper even told Reich to fix Young's footwork. It's kind of ironic to me that two years ago, Reich was expected to be the cure for Wentz's issues with fundamentals -- and I think some of those technique issues improved with Wentz from 2020 to 2021 -- and two years later, he found himself in a mess with a young QB who has decent technique but needed some minor refinements. And even though I think Tepper is way out of his lane on some of this stuff, it's kind of surprising that the owner should need to tell the HC that the QB needs to work on his footwork. Kind of like it was surprising that owner had to prompt Reich to bench Matt Ryan last year.

 

And I agree with DJ Chark -- everything isn't fixed just because Reich is gone.

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I too read the article earlier. There seems to be a lot of dysfunction in Carolina. The article made me think even less of the owner. I wonder who will want to coach there.

 

I read another article involving the Panthers. Hayden Hurst took a big hit in a game in November, hitting his head on the ground. He stayed in the game and was not placed in the Concussion Protocol until the next day. (How does that happen!) He has been out since then and the Panthers have not provided updates on his condition. His father reported that Hurst has Post Traumatic Amnesia as a result of the hit.

 

I hope he recovers.

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What jumped out to me was the description of the culture clearly set by the owner:   Like the Hunger Games.  
 

Everyone out for themselves.  
 

Frank’s own staff going behind his back calling the owner to dish dirt on him.  The ultimate act of betrayal from a coaching staff. 
 

Revolting.   Disgusting.   I hope what goes around comes around for these sleazy dogs. 

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Tepper is just angry that he doesn't have a first round draft pick to make him feel good around his impatience.

 

Imagine every other team gets to have aura around next draft, and every fan base at the bottom of rankings currently get excited for that elite talent in the draft, and Tepper would have no idea how he could get talent or coaching staff or how the assembled funny team would've a chance next year. 

 

He'd be fuming during the draft and off-season and he'd explode during next season and start micro-managing stuff again. 

 

Coaches better not apply for that post. 

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THREE RECENT PIECES OF INFORMATION OF NOTE:

 

1.  Frank Reich wanted to draft CJ Stroud - but - the owner overruled him and selected Bryce Young.  OOOPS!!

 

2.  Frank Reich has announced that the Panthers head coaching job was the final leg of his NFL journey.

 

3.  Evidently the Panthers owner has his mind set on Detroit Lions offensive coordinator Ben Johnson as the next head coach.  A number of people employed by the Panthers have reached out to Ben Johnson and indicated that he shouldn't consider working for their "crazy owner".  WOW!!

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4 hours ago, sb41champs said:

THREE RECENT PIECES OF INFORMATION OF NOTE:

 

1.  Frank Reich wanted to draft CJ Stroud - but - the owner overruled him and selected Bryce Young.  OOOPS!!

 

2.  Frank Reich has announced that the Panthers head coaching job was the final leg of his NFL journey.

 

3.  Evidently the Panthers owner has his mind set on Detroit Lions offensive coordinator Ben Johnson as the next head coach.  A number of people employed by the Panthers have reached out to Ben Johnson and indicated that he shouldn't consider working for their "crazy owner".  WOW!!

Sources?

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Another recently revealed tidbit of information about Frank Reich's nightmare in Carolina:

 

Frank was not allowed - by the owner - to hired within "his circle" of assistant coaches".  

 

This led to a number of different offensive philosophies within the offensive coaching staff.

 

Hard to groom a rookie "franchise QB" in that type of situation.

 

Frankly - I'm surprised that Frank Reich was WILLING to take that head coaching position with those types of provisos by the owner.

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On 12/6/2023 at 3:08 PM, Superman said:

 

Read the whole thing, that was very revealing. One unnamed player said it's not Reich's style to be overly critical of any player or position group. Some said he was more openly calling out Young's mistakes early in the season, and then pulled back as the season progressed, to protect Young's confidence. Nothing there seems surprising...

 

Also, in this whole thing, with tons of named and unnamed sources, nothing about the owner forcing the QB pick.

 

I think it's interesting that Tepper pushed Reich to hire from outside his inner circle, and how that led to some mismatched ideologies on the coaching staff. Trying to incorporate some of the Rams stuff that Thomas Brown was bringing into Reich's system didn't go well. There were competing priorities with helping Young get up to speed, and how much focus should be on him operating the offense as a rookie, vs working on his fundamentals and footwork right away. They started drilling him on footwork a few weeks ago... 

 

Not to pat myself on the back (okay, just a little), I said in my pre-draft write up that Young had an inconsistent drop back, sometimes lacking urgency in his footwork, and I wondered if it would be an issue. That's something that was a point of contention among the staff. And Tepper even told Reich to fix Young's footwork. It's kind of ironic to me that two years ago, Reich was expected to be the cure for Wentz's issues with fundamentals -- and I think some of those technique issues improved with Wentz from 2020 to 2021 -- and two years later, he found himself in a mess with a young QB who has decent technique but needed some minor refinements. And even though I think Tepper is way out of his lane on some of this stuff, it's kind of surprising that the owner should need to tell the HC that the QB needs to work on his footwork. Kind of like it was surprising that owner had to prompt Reich to bench Matt Ryan last year.

 

And I agree with DJ Chark -- everything isn't fixed just because Reich is gone.


 

so basically, as I’ve said before, Reich isn’t the qb whisperer people have painted him out to be.

 

regarding tepper, why hire a HC you can’t even trust to hire his own staff?  Maybe he saw what happened in Indy and didn’t want a repeat?  Idk, but that makes no sense.

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4 hours ago, smittywerb said:

so basically, as I’ve said before, Reich isn’t the qb whisperer people have painted him out to be.

 

regarding tepper, why hire a HC you can’t even trust to hire his own staff?  Maybe he saw what happened in Indy and didn’t want a repeat?  Idk, but that makes no sense.

 

I think Tepper was applying the old Abraham Lincoln "Team of Rivals" strategy to a coaching staff, which I happen to think is a good one. Diversity of thought, competing ideas and strategies, I think that's all a good thing. And I think one of the biggest problems with coaching and front office staffing is the fact that people just hire whoever they already know and have worked with. (Not to get off track, but I think the inherent nepotism in NFL hiring practices is the main reason why the Rooney Rule can't work.) 

 

But if you put together a diversified staff, and don't do the work to come up with one unified approach for getting the best out of your team, then you just have a mismatch of systems that you've Frankenstein'd together, and it results in what we saw from the Panthers. That the staff was apparently not on the same page about working on Young's footwork in Year 1 is telling.

 

And I think Reich is probably not the right guy to oversee a Team of Rivals. He might be a good guy to be on the team, 2nd or 3rd chair like he was in Philly. But he's nonconfrontational, somewhat passive, I'm not sure whether he has conviction in his football philosophies or if he just does what's most comfortable, etc. 

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6 hours ago, smittywerb said:


 

so basically, as I’ve said before, Reich isn’t the qb whisperer people have painted him out to be.

 

regarding tepper, why hire a HC you can’t even trust to hire his own staff?  Maybe he saw what happened in Indy and didn’t want a repeat?  Idk, but that makes no sense.


Not the QB whisperer people have painted him to be?

 

 

Frank got the best year out of an injured Andrew Luck.  
 

Got a good year out of Brissett until he got hurt.  
 

Got a very good year out of Philip Rivers in a year limited due to Covid. 
 

Got a very good year out of Carson Wentz until the last two weeks when a wave of Covid hit Wentz and other top players.  
 

Got a decent half-season out of Matt Ryan.  The problem with last year’s team was the terrible OL.  
 

Not sure your view of Reich holds up to facts.

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55 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:


Not the QB whisperer people have painted him to be?

 

 

Frank got the best year out of an injured Andrew Luck.  
 

Got a good year out of Brissett until he got hurt.  
 

Got a very good year out of Philip Rivers in a year limited due to Covid. 
 

Got a very good year out of Carson Wentz until the last two weeks when a wave of Covid hit Wentz and other top players.  
 

Got a decent half-season out of Matt Ryan.  The problem with last year’s team was the terrible OL.  
 

Not sure your view of Reich holds up to facts.

Rose colored glasses there bud

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57 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:


Not the QB whisperer people have painted him to be?

 

 

Frank got the best year out of an injured Andrew Luck.  
 

Got a good year out of Brissett until he got hurt.  
 

Got a very good year out of Philip Rivers in a year limited due to Covid. 
 

Got a very good year out of Carson Wentz until the last two weeks when a wave of Covid hit Wentz and other top players.  
 

Got a decent half-season out of Matt Ryan.  The problem with last year’s team was the terrible OL.  
 

Not sure your view of Reich holds up to facts.


 

getting a good year out of already established qbs is not what I envision when I read “qb whisperer”

 

a qb whisperer to me is what Shane is doing.  No matter what style qb you give him, he’ll make something out of it.  developing that qb and making that player play to their strengths and not forcing them to do something else
 

Taking an already established qb and putting him in your system is exactly what that is. 

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19 minutes ago, smittywerb said:


 

getting a good year out of already established qbs is not what I envision when I read “qb whisperer”

 

a qb whisperer to me is what Shane is doing.  No matter what style qb you give him, he’ll make something out of it.  developing that qb and making that player play to their strengths and not forcing them to do something else
 

Taking an already established qb and putting him in your system is exactly what that is. 


Luck was coming off a year of surgery.  
 

Brissett had never started. 
 

Rivers was coming off a very down year, so down, the Colts might’ve been the only team interested.   Rebounded to have a very good year even when iractice was limited by Covid. 
 

Same with Wentz.  Came off a down year.   Not clear anyone else was interested.   Again, rebounded sharply to have a very good year until the final two games.   Had such a good year, Ballard was able to trade him for a good haul of picks.  
 

Same with Ryan.  
 

If that doesn’t work for you, fine.   But I think you’ve narrowed your definition to help your argument.  

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2 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:


They may be rose colored, but at least they work.  

Work is a relative term. 
 

Reich has zero history of developing a QB into anything.  
 

Just because you can make a car shine with a coat of polish doesn’t mean you can build one from the ground up. 
 

all the QBs you listed, were actually developed by others. Luck, Brissett, Rivers, Wentz, and Ryan, all had their developmental years by other people. And Ryan had his worse statical year under Reich, Wentz even before the Covid, the only thing he’d really improved on was his INTs. Which is easy to do when it’s run up the guy on 1st and 2nd and then throw it 3 yards behind the LOS on 3rd and 1… 

 

was Reich all bad, no. He did do good things at times. But he’s no QB master whisperer. Guys like Kyle Shannahan, Tom Moore, Bruce Arians. Those guys are master QB whisperers. 

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4 minutes ago, csmopar said:

Work is a relative term. 
 

Reich has zero history of developing a QB into anything.  
 

Just because you can make a car shine with a coat of polish doesn’t mean you can build one from the ground up. 
 

all the QBs you listed, were actually developed by others. Luck, Brissett, Rivers, Wentz, and Ryan, all had their developmental years by other people. And Ryan had his worse statical year under Reich, Wentz even before the Covid, the only thing he’d really improved on was his INTs. Which is easy to do when it’s run up the guy on 1st and 2nd and then throw it 3 yards behind the LOS on 3rd and 1… 

 

was Reich all bad, no. He did do good things at times. But he’s no QB master whisperer. Guys like Kyle Shannahan, Tom Moore, Bruce Arians. Those guys are master QB whisperers. 

 

I think Reich deserves credit for Wentz with the Eagles. He was a big part of Wentz's development into a potential MVP candidate.

 

I would be inclined to give him credit for Wentz in 2021, because he was a little better than in 2020, but he still was very problematic. Reich's ultimate strategy for Wentz that year was to rely on Jonathan Taylor. I went into that season thinking that the main problem with Wentz was footwork, but it turned out that his decision making was a bigger issue, and that didn't really get any better.

 

Reich probably got as much out of JB as anyone else could have, but it's not like he became a high level player. 

 

Reich was better for Luck than Rob Chudzinski or Pep Hamilton, because he called better plays, but I don't think he necessarily made Luck a better player. (The OL also wound up being the best OL Luck ever played with, specifically for the last 11 games or so.)

 

I don't think I ever viewed Reich as a QB whisperer. That label is probably overused to begin with. I do think he was a better offensive coach than the guys that came before him in Indy, but by the end, he wasn't doing a good job either. And what he did in Carolina was a disaster from start to abrupt finish.

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4 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I think Reich deserves credit for Wentz with the Eagles. He was a big part of Wentz's development into a potential MVP candidate.

 

I would be inclined to give him credit for Wentz in 2021, because he was a little better than in 2020, but he still was very problematic. Reich's ultimate strategy for Wentz that year was to rely on Jonathan Taylor. I went into that season thinking that the main problem with Wentz was footwork, but it turned out that his decision making was a bigger issue, and that didn't really get any better.

 

Reich probably got as much out of JB as anyone else could have, but it's not like he became a high level player. 

 

Reich was better for Luck than Rob Chudzinski or Pep Hamilton, because he called better plays, but I don't think he necessarily made Luck a better player. (The OL also wound up being the best OL Luck ever played with, specifically for the last 11 games or so.)

 

I don't think I ever viewed Reich as a QB whisperer. That label is probably overused to begin with. I do think he was a better offensive coach than the guys that came before him in Indy, but by the end, he wasn't doing a good job either. And what he did in Carolina was a disaster from start to abrupt finish.

I can agree with that assessment. 

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43 minutes ago, csmopar said:

Work is a relative term. 
 

Reich has zero history of developing a QB into anything.  
 

Just because you can make a car shine with a coat of polish doesn’t mean you can build one from the ground up. 
 

all the QBs you listed, were actually developed by others. Luck, Brissett, Rivers, Wentz, and Ryan, all had their developmental years by other people. And Ryan had his worse statical year under Reich, Wentz even before the Covid, the only thing he’d really improved on was his INTs. Which is easy to do when it’s run up the guy on 1st and 2nd and then throw it 3 yards behind the LOS on 3rd and 1… 

 

was Reich all bad, no. He did do good things at times. But he’s no QB master whisperer. Guys like Kyle Shannahan, Tom Moore, Bruce Arians. Those guys are master QB whisperers. 


Developed is a relative term.   But the term being debated is quarterback whisperer.    Frank made every quarterback he dealt with better.   Either better than they had ever been, better than they were just the year before, or better than Colts fans thought they’d be. 
 

Better.   
 

If you want to reduce it to a can of paint, that’s your call not mine.  We see this differently.   Not a surprise. 

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On 12/15/2023 at 2:40 PM, NewColtsFan said:


Luck was coming off a year of surgery.  
 

Brissett had never started. 
 

Rivers was coming off a very down year, so down, the Colts might’ve been the only team interested.   Rebounded to have a very good year even when iractice was limited by Covid. 
 

Same with Wentz.  Came off a down year.   Not clear anyone else was interested.   Again, rebounded sharply to have a very good year until the final two games.   Had such a good year, Ballard was able to trade him for a good haul of picks.  
 

Same with Ryan.  
 

If that doesn’t work for you, fine.   But I think you’ve narrowed your definition to help your argument.  


No, I didn’t narrow it, I just explained what I think a qb whisperer is.  Similar to a dog whisperer, or any whisperer.  It means you can take almost any situation and turn it into something.  
 

let’s just use a dog whisperer as an example (change the variables).  If said whisperer could handle mature dogs but couldn’t handle younger dogs and puppies, would you give said person the dog whisperer title?  Probably not.  So it shouldn’t be any different when we’re using the whisperer title for qbs.  
 

Once again, qb whisperer to me means that said coach can develop any kind of qb and get the best out of them.  I mean, haven’t multiple posters on this thread said that Reich has a “type” when it comes to qb?  Versus Shane who had a mobile running qb with a cannon arm looking productive and now minshew who is the total opposite.  

 

I haven’t followed Reich outside of his Indy and panthers seasons so if you can provide me with something prior to those that shows his qb whispering skills then I’d change my opinion.  But sorry, what you’re essentially telling me is that reichs system is qb friendly, which is not calling Reich a qb whisperer.  

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5 hours ago, smittywerb said:


No, I didn’t narrow it, I just explained what I think a qb whisperer is.  Similar to a dog whisperer, or any whisperer.  It means you can take almost any situation and turn it into something.  
 

let’s just use a dog whisperer as an example (change the variables).  If said whisperer could handle mature dogs but couldn’t handle younger dogs and puppies, would you give said person the dog whisperer title?  Probably not.  So it shouldn’t be any different when we’re using the whisperer title for qbs.  
 

Once again, qb whisperer to me means that said coach can develop any kind of qb and get the best out of them.  I mean, haven’t multiple posters on this thread said that Reich has a “type” when it comes to qb?  Versus Shane who had a mobile running qb with a cannon arm looking productive and now minshew who is the total opposite.  

 

I haven’t followed Reich outside of his Indy and panthers seasons so if you can provide me with something prior to those that shows his qb whispering skills then I’d change my opinion.  But sorry, what you’re essentially telling me is that reichs system is qb friendly, which is not calling Reich a qb whisperer.  


I want to be clear with my answer here…

 

I very much refer the Steichen offense to the Frank Reich offense.  No comparison.   I think Shane is next generation, very advanced.   I’ve never seen so many receivers schemed open in my life.   Frank’s offense seemed very old school and traditional.  Very 20th century, not 21st.  
 

But I don’t see much difference in this one aspect.  Both coaches helped pick the quarterbacks they worked with.   So Frank has a type.  So?   He was successful with all.  He made all of them better than they were before Frank got them.   All became better with Frank.  The fact that AR is different than Minchew doesn’t mean much.   Mobile quarterbacks are rare, and Shane had already been with Gardner.   He picked the QB’s he wanted.  
 

Im fine that we don’t agree on what the definition of a whisperer is.    We’re not going to agree.  But I think for 2023 and beyond I’m glad Steichen is our HC.  I think the franchise is in good hands. 
 

Fair enough?   

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