Kelly’s replacement

[JediXMan]

Something tells me he’s going to or is considering retirement. With the amount of concessions he’s had the past few seasons plus he started a family I say the chances of him retiring is pretty high. With that being said should the Colts draft his replacement or is he already on the team thought?

[JediXMan]

Also Colts are fortunate to have Smith and Raimann as their LT and RTs as those are much harder to acquire than a decent C.

[1959Colts]

The concussion Kelly suffered against NE appears to be his 4th

 

https://www.indystar.com/story/sports/columnists/gregg-doyel/2023/09/19/colts-qb-anthony-richardson-suffered-concussion-and-so-did-ryan-kelly/70885664007/

Doyel: QB Anthony Richardson's concussion was the news but Ryan Kelly's could be worse

 

 

Quote

(excerpt from Gregg Doyel article published Sept 19, 2023)

 

...This was Kelly’s second NFL concussion, and his first one was bad. It happened in the 11th game of the 2017 season, and after he missed three games, the Colts shut him down for the final two. One concussion, five games? That’s Tua Tagovailoa territory, who missed five games last season...

 

But this was Ryan Kelly's third concussion...

... Kelly’s concussion is more problematic. It’s the second of his NFL career, and third since his senior season at Alabama, when he suffered a concussion against Texas A&M on Oct. 17, 2015. He played the next week against Tennessee.

 

According to a study earlier this year at the University of Oxford – reportedly the largest study of its kind – “three concussions seems to be a turning point for brain issues, and further injury worsens symptoms.”...

 

 

[JediXMan]

3 minutes ago, 1959Colts said:

The concussion Kelly suffered against NE appears to be his 4th

 

https://www.indystar.com/story/sports/columnists/gregg-doyel/2023/09/19/colts-qb-anthony-richardson-suffered-concussion-and-so-did-ryan-kelly/70885664007/

Doyel: QB Anthony Richardson's concussion was the news but Ryan Kelly's could be worse

 

 

 

That plus he just welcomed home twin boys. There’s no doubt he’s considering it at this point.

[1959Colts]

I still have confidence in Wesley French. I know most here don't like French, but I think he has potential.

Should Kelly miss time (which I hope he doesn't)  we will get a look at how French holds up.

 

 

 

[csmopar]

1 minute ago, JediXMan said:

That plus he just welcomed home twin boys. There’s no doubt he’s considering it at this point.

As sad as it is, I wouldn’t blame him at this point. In fact, I’d offer him to go on IR for the remainder of the season and have him retire after the conclusion of the season. That way he gets his accrued season and his monies. If I were Ballard, I’d insist on it actually

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

Wonder if colts will. Ring back Pinter.

[Indyfan4life]

Yeeeesh. Yeah, he might have a decision to make soon. Hopefully no one gets upset if he calls it quits. 

[w87r]

1 hour ago, JediXMan said:

Something tells me he’s going to or is considering retirement. With the amount of concessions he’s had the past few seasons plus he started a family I say the chances of him retiring is pretty high. With that being said should the Colts draft his replacement or is he already on the team thought?

Could definitely see us trying to draft one 

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 minute ago, w87r said:

Could definitely see us trying to draft one 

Hopefully we can draft a good one. AR is young and the Center will be young. A QB and a Center having great chemistry for years is priceless. Like Peyton had with Saturday. 

[NewColtsFan]

I’ve read the responses and people talk about drafting Kelly’s replacement.   
 

One thing the Colts might do instead is sign a free agent center.    I’m only saying all of our issues won’t be fixed with the draft.   Some will have to be addressed by free agency.  
 

Food for thought. 

[holeymoley99]

I like French as well had his best Pass Blocking of the season yesterday. He seems to be an ascending player needs to keep hitting the weight room but he has the technique. 

[w87r]

3 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

I’ve read the responses and people talk about drafting Kelly’s replacement.   
 

One thing the Colts might do instead is sign a free agent center.    I’m only saying all of our issues won’t be fixed with the draft.   Some will have to be addressed by free agency.  
 

Food for thought. 

A lot of players needs extensions, to be going out and spend big money on a Center.

 

 

Kelly might not even retire, so it's all food for thought.

 

 

Looking at FA Centers right now:

Conner McGovern 35/38 - $12.5m projected AAV

Conner Williams 6/38 - $13.5m projected AAV

Andre James 14/38 - $10.9m projected AAV 

Aaron Brewer 11/38 - $5.2m projected AAV

Lloyd Cushenberry 12/38 - $6.9m projected AAV

 

 

I'm sure some won't make it to FA.

 

Williams probably has a good chance as the Dolphins have no money and others to sign.

[Blueblood23]

1 hour ago, 1959Colts said:

The concussion Kelly suffered against NE appears to be his 4th

 

https://www.indystar.com/story/sports/columnists/gregg-doyel/2023/09/19/colts-qb-anthony-richardson-suffered-concussion-and-so-did-ryan-kelly/70885664007/

Doyel: QB Anthony Richardson's concussion was the news but Ryan Kelly's could be worse

 

 

 

Never heard of a center getting this many concussions before.

[NewColtsFan]

1 hour ago, w87r said:

A lot of players needs extensions, to be going out and spend big money on a Center.

 

 

Kelly might not even retire, so it's all food for thought.

 

 

Looking at FA Centers right now:

Conner McGovern 35/38 - $12.5m projected AAV

Conner Williams 6/38 - $13.5m projected AAV

Andre James 14/38 - $10.9m projected AAV 

Aaron Brewer 11/38 - $5.2m projected AAV

Lloyd Cushenberry 12/38 - $6.9m projected AAV

 

 

I'm sure some won't make it to FA.

 

Williams probably has a good chance as the Dolphins have no money and others to sign.

In various threads over the last two months people here have called for the team to address the followings needs via the draft….   
 

DE, DT, WR, CB, S, LB, RB (should Moss leave) and QB for the Minshew sucks crowd.    Not all of these needs can be fixed thru the draft.   Some will have to be filled via FA.   
 

I don’t read posters saying the Colts can fix some issues with free agency.   They only mention the draft.   Hope this clarifies my position. 

[OLD FAN MAN]

2 hours ago, Indyfan4life said:

Yeeeesh. Yeah, he might have a decision to make soon. Hopefully no one gets upset if he calls it quits. 

not long ago many on this forum were saying he was bad and needed replaced

[w87r]

4 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

In various threads over the last two months people here have called for the team to address the followings needs via the draft….   
 

DE, DT, WR, CB, S, LB, RB (should Moss leave) and QB for the Minshew sucks crowd.    Not all of these needs can be fixed thru the draft.   Some will have to be filled via FA.   
 

I don’t read posters saying the Colts can fix some issues with free agency.   They only mention the draft.   Hope this clarifies my position. 

Probably 1 reason not to many people are saying FA, because they know he's not that active there 

 

Ekubam was a nice pickup last off-season.

 

Out of you list:(DE, DT, WR, CB, S, LB, RB (should Moss leave) and QB)

 

My thoughts are

DE - Lewis and Avery are FA, probably bring both back to camp. Avery was looking good before he went down. Lewis is playing pretty good this year as well. Outside of that we have Ebukam, to go with Paye and Dayo on final years of deal. With Land still in development?

So not sure I see a big splash move there. Maybe a draft pick?

DT - mainly predicated on if we bring Grover back or not. If we do, it will be rotational player at best if we bring in FA. Still have Adebawore developing too. Could definitely see a small contract DT depth FA signing.

WR - Some interesting names out there, but I don't see us paying 2 WRs big money this off-season, having to maybe give Pittman big money. There is suitable replacements out there though if they choose to move on. Think more than likely draft picks makes sense here.

CB - Will have Brents, Jones, Flowers, Speed (skill TBD), returning. Hopefully we can retain Moore. Tough call here, not sure I see a big CB signing (unless Kenny walks, still maybe not), maybe an additional pick for depth? 

S - Again will depend on locking Blackmon up.

We still have Thomas and Cross who are young as well as Denbow and Daniel Scott, draft pick from last year. Quality vets can usually be picked up at any time, so can't see a big FA splash here.

LB - we know Ballard can draft LBs, so could see it. Don't see them paying a LB much in FA, whether we keep Shaq or not. 

RB - hopefully Moss can be retained, if not I'm pretty sure that will be a draft pick to come in, plus we have Hull coming back.

QB - definitely see a FA signing here if we let Minshew go.

[azcolt]

1 hour ago, Blueblood23 said:

Never heard of a center getting this many concussions before.

Concussions are being diagnosed much more these days. No longer is losing consciousness a bright line. The old days of a “rung bell” followed by smelling salts are over and that’s a good thing.

[NewColtsFan]

28 minutes ago, w87r said:

Probably 1 reason not to many people are saying FA, because they know he's not that active there 

 

Ekubam was a nice pickup last off-season.

 

Out of you list:(DE, DT, WR, CB, S, LB, RB (should Moss leave) and QB)

 

My thoughts are

DE - Lewis and Avery are FA, probably bring both back to camp. Avery was looking good before he went down. Lewis is playing pretty good this year as well. Outside of that we have Ebukam, to go with Paye and Dayo on final years of deal. With Land still in development?

So not sure I see a big splash move there. Maybe a draft pick?

DT - mainly predicated on if we bring Grover back or not. If we do, it will be rotational player at best if we bring in FA. Still have Adebawore developing too. Could definitely see a small contract DT depth FA signing.

WR - Some interesting names out there, but I don't see us paying 2 WRs big money this off-season, having to maybe give Pittman big money. There is suitable replacements out there though if they choose to move on. Think more than likely draft picks makes sense here.

CB - Will have Brents, Jones, Flowers, Speed (skill TBD), returning. Hopefully we can retain Moore. Tough call here, not sure I see a big CB signing (unless Kenny walks, still maybe not), maybe an additional pick for depth? 

S - Again will depend on locking Blackmon up.

We still have Thomas and Cross who are young as well as Denbow and Daniel Scott, draft pick from last year. Quality vets can usually be picked up at any time, so can't see a big FA splash here.

LB - we know Ballard can draft LBs, so could see it. Don't see them paying a LB much in FA, whether we keep Shaq or not. 

RB - hopefully Moss can be retained, if not I'm pretty sure that will be a draft pick to come in, plus we have Hull coming back.

QB - definitely see a FA signing here if we let Minshew go.

Good response, Thanks….

 

One small speed bump….   In your list of CB’s you listed Speed.   I assume that’s a typo?   Who did you mean to say?   I know there’s a popular push here for using a high pick on a corner.   But that’s a view I don’t support.  
 

Thanks again…. 

[Solid84]

4 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

I’ve read the responses and people talk about drafting Kelly’s replacement.   
 

One thing the Colts might do instead is sign a free agent center.    I’m only saying all of our issues won’t be fixed with the draft.   Some will have to be addressed by free agency.  
 

Food for thought. 

True, but we do have Pinter and French who both have experience.

[Solid84]

1 hour ago, NewColtsFan said:

Good response, Thanks….

 

One small speed bump….   In your list of CB’s you listed Speed.   I assume that’s a typo?   Who did you mean to say?   I know there’s a popular push here for using a high pick on a corner.   But that’s a view I don’t support.  
 

Thanks again…. 

Ameer Speed on the practice squad.

[OhioColt]

4 hours ago, w87r said:

A lot of players needs extensions, to be going out and spend big money on a Center.

 

 

Kelly might not even retire, so it's all food for thought.

 

 

Looking at FA Centers right now:

Conner McGovern 35/38 - $12.5m projected AAV

Conner Williams 6/38 - $13.5m projected AAV

Andre James 14/38 - $10.9m projected AAV 

Aaron Brewer 11/38 - $5.2m projected AAV

Lloyd Cushenberry 12/38 - $6.9m projected AAV

 

 

I'm sure some won't make it to FA.

 

Williams probably has a good chance as the Dolphins have no money and others to sign.

Offensive lineman is one of the better options to acquire FA every time.  No guarantees even first or second round picks do well in the NFL and majority of mid-late round draft picks washout.  Exceptions to every rule but finding doable OL in FA is the better option imho.

 

Below are the top upcoming OL FA targets I put together last week:

 

LT Cornelius Lucas (Washington) – 33 yo solid backup career

LG Jon Feliciano (49ers) – 32 yo moved to a backup role this season

LG Kevin Dotson (Rams) – 27 yo with upside

LG Damien Lewis (Seahawks) – 27 yo -starter but not a LT option

OC Evan Brown (Seahawks) 28 yo

OC Connor McGovern (NY Jets) 31 yo having a down contract year 48.5 PFF grade after two stellar years prior.

LG/OC Trystan Colon (Cardinals) – listed as starter/backup C 

OC Nick Harris (Browns) 

RG Robert Hunt (Dolphins) – Quenton Nelson type contract 18M/APY - FYI Nelson way over paid

RT Olisameka Udoh (Vikings) – decent BU 

RT Cameron Flemming (Broncos) – 32 yo 

OT Prince Tega Wanogho (Chiefs) – 2.5m 

LT/LG/RT Chuma Edoga (Cowboys) – was very high on last year

 

Most probably aren't starters nor what we would probably want to replace Kelly.

 

Hoping in the NFL draft if Kelly does retire than we look at OC Jackson Powers-Johnson (Oregon).  Career year as he is the only FBS center who has earned 80+ grades in both PB/RB this season.  His 88.4 PB grade leads all Power Five centers and has only surrendered just one pressure, no sacks, on 183 PB snaps.  2023 earned college football midseason all-America First Team.  Other top center in the class so far is Sedrick Van Pran (Georgia) only has an overall PFF grade of 81.1.

[OhioColt]

2 hours ago, w87r said:

Probably 1 reason not to many people are saying FA, because they know he's not that active there 

 

Ekubam was a nice pickup last off-season.

 

Out of you list:(DE, DT, WR, CB, S, LB, RB (should Moss leave) and QB)

 

My thoughts are

DE - Lewis and Avery are FA, probably bring both back to camp. Avery was looking good before he went down. Lewis is playing pretty good this year as well. Outside of that we have Ebukam, to go with Paye and Dayo on final years of deal. With Land still in development?

So not sure I see a big splash move there. Maybe a draft pick?

DT - mainly predicated on if we bring Grover back or not. If we do, it will be rotational player at best if we bring in FA. Still have Adebawore developing too. Could definitely see a small contract DT depth FA signing.

WR - Some interesting names out there, but I don't see us paying 2 WRs big money this off-season, having to maybe give Pittman big money. There is suitable replacements out there though if they choose to move on. Think more than likely draft picks makes sense here.

CB - Will have Brents, Jones, Flowers, Speed (skill TBD), returning. Hopefully we can retain Moore. Tough call here, not sure I see a big CB signing (unless Kenny walks, still maybe not), maybe an additional pick for depth? 

S - Again will depend on locking Blackmon up.

We still have Thomas and Cross who are young as well as Denbow and Daniel Scott, draft pick from last year. Quality vets can usually be picked up at any time, so can't see a big FA splash here.

LB - we know Ballard can draft LBs, so could see it. Don't see them paying a LB much in FA, whether we keep Shaq or not. 

RB - hopefully Moss can be retained, if not I'm pretty sure that will be a draft pick to come in, plus we have Hull coming back.

QB - definitely see a FA signing here if we let Minshew go.

My defensive FA list:

 

DT Bilal Nichols (Raiders) 

DT Teair Tart (Titans) 

DT Armon Watts (Steelers) 

DT Kevin Strong (Cardinals) 

LDE Bryce Huff (NY Jets)

LDE A.J. Epenesa (Bills) 

LDE Clelin Ferrell (49ers) 

RDE Malik Reed (Raiders) 

WLB/MLB Frankie Luvu (Panthers) - Luvu been very high for years and would be a great replacement for Leonard if traded/cut

WLB/MLB Isaiah Simmons (NY Giants) – first round draft pick decent but now listed as BU. 

WLB Anfernee Jennings (Patriots) 

WLB/Edge Yetur Gross-Matos (Panthers) – IR

WLB-ST Joe Bachie (Bengals) 

SLB Josh Uche (Patriots) 

SLB-ST Cam Gill (TB Bucs) 

MLB-ST Shaun Bradley (Eagles) IR 

MLB-ST Krys Barnes (Cardinals) – hit/miss starter potential

LCB Rashad Fenton (Cardinals) IR 

LCB-ST Isaac Yiadom (Saints) – having a career year listed as BU but showing promise as a starter

LCB Dane Jackson (Bills) – ST proven starter abilities playing well past 5-6 weeks - currently ranked 49/114 CB

RCB Greg Stroman (Bears) 

RCB Bryce Hall (NY Jets) 

RCB David Long Jr. (Panthers) – backup getting starting time with CJ Henderson out

SCB Tavierre Thomas (Texans) – native of Detroit tempted to move closer to home? Listed as a BU. Top 10/114 CBs as of 11/8

FS Jaylinn Hawkins (Chargers) bu with decent starting potential 

FS Xavier McKinney (NY Giants) one of the better safeties 30th/87

SS/LCB Jeremy Chinn (Panthers) – team is loaded with DBs and Chinn is a local Indy kid

 

[csmopar]

7 hours ago, Indyfan4life said:

Yeeeesh. Yeah, he might have a decision to make soon. Hopefully no one gets upset if he calls it quits. 

As long as he doesn’t do it at half time of the third preseason game, I’m good with it

[w87r]

3 hours ago, Solid84 said:

Ameer Speed on the practice squad.

He's actually on the 53 man roster

[NewColtsFan]

4 hours ago, Solid84 said:

Ameer Speed on the practice squad.

Thanks.    Now it makes sense.   
 

Appreciate that!     
 

 

[lollygagger8]

This O-line isn't the same when Kelly is out, that is a big loss.

 

I'm sure he has a different helmet, but maybe they can get one like Minshew's? He seems to have extra padding on his than regular. 

[csmopar]

1 hour ago, lollygagger8 said:

This O-line isn't the same when Kelly is out, that is a big loss.

 

I'm sure he has a different helmet, but maybe they can get one like Minshew's? He seems to have extra padding on his than regular. 

Sometimes the padding isn’t able to reduce the concussion. Some concussions happen from the whip lash of the neck vs the head. Happened to me in a roll over

[John Hammonds]

If Kelly goes out, he goes out on top.  His PFF score is tops in the NFL.

 

As for his replacement, I'm still leaning towards Michigan center Drake Nugent in the 3rd round.  Even if Kelly doesn't retire this year.  Draft the guy and let him sit for a year.

[holeymoley99]

2 hours ago, w87r said:

He's actually on the 53 man roster

And was drafted before Jaylon Jones so club may have had him on their board higher and he was snagged. Ended up with both and Jones is punching well above his draft position so far.

[sb41champs]

God bless Colts center Ryan Kelly - and - ALL of the NFL players who are dealing with concussions!!

 

I've had 3 - and - I never ever want to have another.

[superrep1967]

12 hours ago, w87r said:

Probably 1 reason not to many people are saying FA, because they know he's not that active there 

 

Ekubam was a nice pickup last off-season.

 

Out of you list:(DE, DT, WR, CB, S, LB, RB (should Moss leave) and QB)

 

My thoughts are

DE - Lewis and Avery are FA, probably bring both back to camp. Avery was looking good before he went down. Lewis is playing pretty good this year as well. Outside of that we have Ebukam, to go with Paye and Dayo on final years of deal. With Land still in development?

So not sure I see a big splash move there. Maybe a draft pick?

DT - mainly predicated on if we bring Grover back or not. If we do, it will be rotational player at best if we bring in FA. Still have Adebawore developing too. Could definitely see a small contract DT depth FA signing.

WR - Some interesting names out there, but I don't see us paying 2 WRs big money this off-season, having to maybe give Pittman big money. There is suitable replacements out there though if they choose to move on. Think more than likely draft picks makes sense here.

CB - Will have Brents, Jones, Flowers, Speed (skill TBD), returning. Hopefully we can retain Moore. Tough call here, not sure I see a big CB signing (unless Kenny walks, still maybe not), maybe an additional pick for depth? 

S - Again will depend on locking Blackmon up.

We still have Thomas and Cross who are young as well as Denbow and Daniel Scott, draft pick from last year. Quality vets can usually be picked up at any time, so can't see a big FA splash here.

LB - we know Ballard can draft LBs, so could see it. Don't see them paying a LB much in FA, whether we keep Shaq or not. 

RB - hopefully Moss can be retained, if not I'm pretty sure that will be a draft pick to come in, plus we have Hull coming back.

QB - definitely see a FA signing here if we let Minshew go.

I don’t see Moss still being here next year at all they ran him one time against the Pats. 

[superrep1967]

5 hours ago, lollygagger8 said:

This O-line isn't the same when Kelly is out, that is a big loss.

 

I'm sure he has a different helmet, but maybe they can get one like Minshew's? He seems to have extra padding on his than regular. 

It looks like Minshew has a helmet that lets the pressure out during a blow to the head and that seems more appropriate to me more should use it. 

[NewColtsFan]

6 hours ago, John Hammonds said:

If Kelly goes out, he goes out on top.  His PFF score is tops in the NFL.

 

As for his replacement, I'm still leaning towards Michigan center Drake Nugent in the 3rd round.  Even if Kelly doesn't retire this year.  Draft the guy and let him sit for a year.

For what it’s worth, Nugent and the Wolverines starting RT are both Stanford transfers.  They left (along with many others) when Shaw retired.  
 

It’s a new world….. 

[OhioColt]

20 hours ago, John Hammonds said:

If Kelly goes out, he goes out on top.  His PFF score is tops in the NFL.

 

As for his replacement, I'm still leaning towards Michigan center Drake Nugent in the 3rd round.  Even if Kelly doesn't retire this year.  Draft the guy and let him sit for a year.

UCLA Duke Clemens is another having a solid 2023.  After 10 weeks, has an 79.4 PB grade and an 78.7 RB grade (3rd highest) among centers.  Clemens has only allowed 1 sack in 347 PB snaps this season. 
 

Miami’s Matt Lee is another possibility.  In 2022 Lee had an 82.5 overall PFF grade with an 90.6 PB grade and an 80.6 RB grade.  As of October 15th, Lee is the highest graded center with an 82.7 PFF grade. 

[lollygagger8]

23 hours ago, csmopar said:

Sometimes the padding isn’t able to reduce the concussion. Some concussions happen from the whip lash of the neck vs the head. Happened to me in a roll over

 

AR definitely needs that as well if that's the case 

[DougDew]

I guess we need to add a C to the positional needs of the team going forward.  While I can't/won't predict and immediate need due to immediate retirement, its seems safe to assume he won't be here in 2025.

 

This situation isn't unlike the AC situation of a few years ago, where you see the sun setting at an important position.  Its best to start addressing it now in some material way than to actually wait until Kelly retires and Ballard is forced to find/settle for whatever FA happens to be on the market or whatever college player happens to be in the draft.  Maybe French is that successor.  Maybe a mid round draft pick this year can provide some vision as to what comes next at the C position.

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

1 hour ago, DougDew said:

I guess we need to add a C to the positional needs of the team going forward.  While I can't/won't predict and immediate need due to immediate retirement, its seems safe to assume he won't be here in 2025.

 

This situation isn't unlike the AC situation of a few years ago, where you see the sun setting at an important position.  Its best to start addressing it now in some material way than to actually wait until Kelly retires and Ballard is forced to find/settle for whatever FA happens to be on the market or whatever college player happens to be in the draft.  Maybe French is that successor.  Maybe a mid round draft pick this year can provide some vision as to what comes next at the C position.

Except center isn’t nearly as hard to find as a LT. Just look at how well Pinter and French have played when filling in there. They could always bring pinger back too. Draft I think is more likely. We can bring Pinter back too.

[DougDew]

30 minutes ago, Restinpeacesweetchloe said:

Except center isn’t nearly as hard to find as a LT. Just look at how well Pinter and French have played when filling in there. They could always bring pinger back too. Draft I think is more likely. We can bring Pinter back too.

I did say that perhaps French is the succession plan. 

 

I think they have good games, but sometimes that's a matter of circumstances where things go right for them for a while, but its not really the same has having someone with the inherent talent and skill that earns them a pick 18 in the draft.....like Kelly. 

 

A temporary band aid vs a long term successor.  People are going to have differing opinions about what French and Pinter are. 

[Restinpeacesweetchloe]

1 minute ago, DougDew said:

I did say that perhaps French is the succession plan. 

 

I think they have good games, but sometimes that's a matter of circumstances where things go right for them for a while, but its not really the same has having someone with the inherent talent and skill that earns them a pick 18 in the draft.....like Kelly. 

 

A temporary band aid vs a long term successor.  People are going to have differing opinions about what French and Pinter are. 

Yeah I agree. It would most likely be on the draft. I do think Pinter could be a longer term answer though. You don’t really need to draft a center high.  There could be a FA out there too who Steichen likes. Maybe wanting to get his own guy.