Colts Roster February 1 2023 - No Wonder

[DougDew]

Reviewing Spotrac for active players and compensation, it seems clear as to why the Colts were 4-12-1.  

 

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/indianapolis-colts/cap/

 

The top 10 players account for 67% of the cap.  Ryan and Leonard alone account for nearly 25% of it.   The rest are Buckner, Smith, Gilmore. Kelly, Nelson, Stewart, Moore, and MAC.  I'd say that none of those players are the players many fans are excited about as far as making contributions to the wins.  Maybe Smith, Defo, Gilmore, and Nelson.  Two of whom are aging vets and the other two olinemen.   

 

Your thoughts....

 

What would you do.  Build around what there is or make some significant cuts/trades?

 

Edit:  I realize that the cap will go up, as well as new cap number allotments for each player, notably Nelson gets a big increase, but this is where it stands early February.

[csmopar]

12 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Reviewing Spotrac for active players and compensation, it seems clear as to why the Colts were 4-12-1.  

 

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/indianapolis-colts/cap/

 

The top 10 players account for 67% of the cap.  Ryan and Leonard alone account for nearly 25% of it.   The rest are Buckner, Smith, Gilmore. Kelly, Nelson, Stewart, Moore, and MAC.  I'd say that none of those players are the players many fans are excited about as far as making contributions to the wins.  Maybe Smith, Defo, Gilmore, and Nelson.  Two of whom are aging vets and the other two olinemen.   

 

Your thoughts....

 

What would you do.  Build around what there is or make some significant cuts/trades?

 

Edit:  I realize that the cap will go up, as well as new cap number allotments for each player, notably Nelson gets a big increase, but this is where it stands early February.

I’m trading Moore, he’s over paid and over rated. 
 

im cutting or trading Kelly. 
 

Ryan is gone for sure, cutting him

Leonard, I’d field trades on but his contract makes it tough with injuries.

 

mo Allie isn’t worth it, he needs to go

 

the rest, I’m keeping

[NewColtsFan]

I think if you look at other NFL rosters you’d see that the top 10-13 players make roughly a similar percentage of the salary cap.  
 

This is not unique to the Colts.  
 

What IS unique is that the Colts had so many top players perform so poorly.  

[Indeee]

5 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

I think if you look at other NFL rosters you’d see that the top 10-13 players make roughly a similar percentage of the salary cap.  
 

This is not unique to the Colts.  
 

What IS unique is that the Colts had so many top players perform so poorly.  

What's unique is that none of that allocated money is in positions that score points and therein lies the issue.

[throwing BBZ]

53 minutes ago, csmopar said:

I’m trading Moore, he’s over paid and over rated. 
 

im cutting or trading Kelly. 
 

Ryan is gone for sure, cutting him

Leonard, I’d field trades on but his contract makes it tough with injuries.

 

mo Allie isn’t worth it, he needs to go

 

the rest, I’m keeping

 

 Hilarious wasn't it when Moore went down how well our secondary played.
He will get a pay raise on his next contract, and he will play for someone that uses him properly. Gus is a mess. 
 Just pray Irsay steps up and if he must, he Force's a change.

[throwing BBZ]

1 hour ago, DougDew said:

Reviewing Spotrac for active players and compensation, it seems clear as to why the Colts were 4-12-1.  

 

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/indianapolis-colts/cap/

 

The top 10 players account for 67% of the cap.  Ryan and Leonard alone account for nearly 25% of it.   The rest are Buckner, Smith, Gilmore. Kelly, Nelson, Stewart, Moore, and MAC.  I'd say that none of those players are the players many fans are excited about as far as making contributions to the wins.  Maybe Smith, Defo, Gilmore, and Nelson.  Two of whom are aging vets and the other two olinemen.   

 

Your thoughts....

 

What would you do.  Build around what there is or make some significant cuts/trades?

 

Edit:  I realize that the cap will go up, as well as new cap number allotments for each player, notably Nelson gets a big increase, but this is where it stands early February.

 

 You provide no context and should absolutely lead with the disaster at QB and the loss of our 2 top minds running our offense regarding our record.
 The Fact that with a New HC, QB, and who knows what else, we are in a reset/rebuild, call it what you want. 
 So yes, the age of some players, their contracts, these things will be addresed, adjustments made, particularly i would think in 2023 and 2024.
 

[NewColtsFan]

11 minutes ago, Indeee said:

What's unique is that none of that allocated money is in positions that score points and therein lies the issue.

Really?   Matt Ryan doesn’t score points?   The quarterback doesn’t score points?  
 

Offensive line doesn’t help score points? 

 

The Colts situation is evolving because the focus has been in the two lines.   The “point scorers” as you think if them are all on their rookie contracts.   This will change as the roster does.  This is not set in stone. 
 

 

[richard pallo]

No big revelation here on cap allocation.  Not a big deal.  Very common in the NFL.

[Indeee]

52 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

Really?   Matt Ryan doesn’t score points?   The quarterback doesn’t score points?  
 

Offensive line doesn’t help score points? 

 

The Colts situation is evolving because the focus has been in the two lines.   The “point scorers” as you think if them are all on their rookie contracts.   This will change as the roster does.  This is not set in stone. 
 

 

You wanna rethink that? Ha!! Matt Ryan actually didn't score hardly any points, i.e. why he was benched. 

 

Anyway, I was more speaking from the skill positions aspect. Tyreek Hill was paid because he scores points as an example

[masterlock]

1 hour ago, Indeee said:

What's unique is that none of that allocated money is in positions that score points and therein lies the issue.

There's some validity to your point, but don't forget, it's not uncommon for teams to pay star pass rushers, elite left tackles, elite corners, etc., and none of these positions score points. So there's a precedent for paying non-point-scoring players. But one would hope that at least SOME of the top-paid players on a roster actually do score points--like a top QB, WR or TE.

[buccolts]

Renegotiate and extend those you plan to keep.

Trade those you can.

Cut those you MUST.

 

[DougDew]

1 hour ago, NewColtsFan said:

I think if you look at other NFL rosters you’d see that the top 10-13 players make roughly a similar percentage of the salary cap.  
 

This is not unique to the Colts.  
 

What IS unique is that the Colts had so many top players perform so poorly.  

I know.  I wanted to highlight our top 10 players...who they were...and also to lift out Ryan and Leonard for accounting for 23% of the cap.   And that's not meant as a knock on Leonard, but when that much cap is sitting on the bench...it contributes to a 4-12-1 season.   That cap allocation had no impact this year.

 

Also, most of the players that the fans are excited about, JT, PItt, Pierce, Paye, Rogers...can't think of many more....are way down the list.   The Colts seem to not be getting the needed impact from their top 10.

[throwing BBZ]

2 hours ago, DougDew said:

Reviewing Spotrac for active players and compensation, it seems clear as to why the Colts were 4-12-1.  

 

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/indianapolis-colts/cap/

 

The top 10 players account for 67% of the cap.  Ryan and Leonard alone account for nearly 25% of it.   The rest are Buckner, Smith, Gilmore. Kelly, Nelson, Stewart, Moore, and MAC.  I'd say that none of those players are the players many fans are excited about as far as making contributions to the wins.  Maybe Smith, Defo, Gilmore, and Nelson.  Two of whom are aging vets and the other two olinemen.   

 

Your thoughts....

 

What would you do.  Build around what there is or make some significant cuts/trades?

 

Edit:  I realize that the cap will go up, as well as new cap number allotments for each player, notably Nelson gets a big increase, but this is where it stands early February.

 

  I had no reason to doubt your numbers D, but i did want to check it out.
 You didn't say how you calculated it but i used their 22 Cap Hit.

  For our top 13, which includes Taylor, Kwity, and Pittman at the bottom,

 my totals are $118M from a salary cap of 208.2 M.  This is 57% of the cap.
  I'm pretty sure this is well within the NFL average.
  Most teams have about 6 players making more than $10M, then 4-5 making 5-9 M, then a some making 2-4. Then a lot of $1M ish to fill the roster.

[DougDew]

7 minutes ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

  I had no reason to doubt your numbers D, but i did want to check it out.
 You didn't say how you calculated it but i used their 22 Cap Hit.

  For our top 13, which includes Taylor, Kwity, and Pittman at the bottom,

 my totals are $118M from a salary cap of 208.2 M.  This is 57% of the cap.
  I'm pretty sure this is well within the NFL average.
  Most teams have about 6 players making more than $10M, then 4-5 making 5-9 M, then a some making 2-4. Then a lot of $1M ish to fill the roster.

I used the column that the guys at Spotrac use to rank them.  It speaks to our record in 22, IMO.

[throwing BBZ]

2 hours ago, masterlock said:

There's some validity to your point, but don't forget, it's not uncommon for teams to pay star pass rushers, elite left tackles, elite corners, etc., and none of these positions score points. So there's a precedent for paying non-point-scoring players. But one would hope that at least SOME of the top-paid players on a roster actually do score points--like a top QB, WR or TE.

 

  Pittman is definitely making progress to be a high end player.

 Looking at it soberly, Paris was a high qualty draft pick that could have been that OTHER WR that was killing it at this pont of his career. lol

 Ryan, and our poor pass protection, diminished what we might actually have had there. Add the lack of a polished TE to attack with hurt too.

 Yes we are young at these postions but we have good prospects in place to become Much better over the next couple years and THEN we will have to pay them. Pittman getting an $18M per year raise soon will be the start.  

[NewColtsFan]

2 hours ago, DougDew said:

I know.  I wanted to highlight our top 10 players...who they were...and also to lift out Ryan and Leonard for accounting for 23% of the cap.   And that's not meant as a knock on Leonard, but when that much cap is sitting on the bench...it contributes to a 4-12-1 season.   That cap allocation had no impact this year.

 

Also, most of the players that the fans are excited about, JT, PItt, Pierce, Paye, Rogers...can't think of many more....are way down the list.   The Colts seem to not be getting the needed impact from their top 10.

I don’t mean to be trite….  But when you’re not getting your money’s worth….  When you’re not getting nearly enough bang for your buck, then compound that with bad coaching, you get 4-12-1. 
 

 

[RunTheBall]

No offensive tackles except for a converted guard and a rookie who become not terrible.  Only one good corner back.  Doesn't matter who is QB, that is 4-12.  We need a GM so bad.

[DougDew]

2 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

I don’t mean to be trite….  But when you’re not getting your money’s worth….  When you’re not getting nearly enough bang for your buck, then compound that with bad coaching, you get 4-12-1. 
 

 

Well, anything can be turned so general as to make it irrelevant. 

 

My thread was expected to be more specific.  What would you do with any of the top ten players?  Cut, trade, extend (Buckner?)

 

CSmopar offered his opinion.

[NewColtsFan]

4 hours ago, DougDew said:

Well, anything can be turned so general as to make it irrelevant. 

 

My thread was expected to be more specific.  What would you do with any of the top ten players?  Cut, trade, extend (Buckner?)

 

CSmopar offered his opinion.

I’m happy to offer my opinion. 
 

I’m likely doing more than people would expect but less than what some here would want.  
 

First, I view ‘23 as a rebuild year that will probably end with a losing record.  And I’m fine with that.  
 

So….  Here are my moves, designed to pick up draft picks and add needed cap space. 
 

1.   Cutting Ryan clearing cap space. 
 

2.   Trading Buckner for picks and clearing cap space. 
 

3.   Trading Kelly for picks and clearing cap space. 
 

4.   Trading Moore for picks and clearing cap space.  

 

Not touching Leonard or Nelson for at least one more year., maybe longer.  You’d get only penny’s on the dollar in picks and the dead cap hits would be way, way too severe.   That’s a lose-lose.    But I view the rebuild as a multiyear effort with a new coaching staff and needs to be done.  

[Solid84]

8 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

I’m happy to offer my opinion. 
 

I’m likely doing more than people would expect but less than what some here would want.  
 

First, I view ‘23 as a rebuild year that will probably end with a losing record.  And I’m fine with that.  
 

So….  Here are my moves, designed to pick up draft picks and add needed cap space. 
 

1.   Cutting Ryan clearing cap space. 
 

2.   Trading Buckner for picks and clearing cap space. 
 

3.   Trading Kelly for picks and clearing cap space. 
 

4.   Trading Moore for picks and clearing cap space.  

 

Not touching Leonard or Nelson for at least one more year., maybe longer.  You’d get only penny’s on the dollar in picks and the dead cap hits would be way, way too severe.   That’s a lose-lose.    But I view the rebuild as a multiyear effort with a new coaching staff and needs to be done.  

This is about what I hope for, but I honestly expect less. 

[RunTheBall]

13 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

I’m happy to offer my opinion. 
 

I’m likely doing more than people would expect but less than what some here would want.  
 

First, I view ‘23 as a rebuild year that will probably end with a losing record.  And I’m fine with that.  
 

So….  Here are my moves, designed to pick up draft picks and add needed cap space. 
 

1.   Cutting Ryan clearing cap space. 
 

2.   Trading Buckner for picks and clearing cap space. 
 

3.   Trading Kelly for picks and clearing cap space. 
 

4.   Trading Moore for picks and clearing cap space.  

 

Not touching Leonard or Nelson for at least one more year., maybe longer.  You’d get only penny’s on the dollar in picks and the dead cap hits would be way, way too severe.   That’s a lose-lose.    But I view the rebuild as a multiyear effort with a new coaching staff and needs to be done.  

I like the moves.  Rebuild.  I am curious why you want to move Buckner.  He can be productive.  Does he have enough years left for a rebuild?

[NewColtsFan]

43 minutes ago, RunTheBall said:

I like the moves.  Rebuild.  I am curious why you want to move Buckner.  He can be productive.  Does he have enough years left for a rebuild?

I want to be clear….   I love Buckner and don’t want to trade him.  
 

But I think the Colts are going to have a two year rebuild.  I think that makes him worth less to the Colts and more to others.    And he’s still young enough and playing well enough to get decent picks in return.  The other trades will only get the Colts day 3 picks.  Also, I think Dayo’s best position may be Buckners, the 3-Tech.  
 

All of this means I think the Colts should trade him to maximize the rebuild.   Hey, if need be, I could be talked into trading Gilmore to maximize the rebuild for the same reasons.  
 

 

[throwing BBZ]

53 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

I want to be clear….   I love Buckner and don’t want to trade him.  
 

But I think the Colts are going to have a two year rebuild.  I think that makes him worth less to the Colts and more to others.    And he’s still young enough and playing well enough to get decent picks in return.  The other trades will only get the Colts day 3 picks.  Also, I think Dayo’s best position may be Buckners, the 3-Tech.  
 

All of this means I think the Colts should trade him to maximize the rebuild.   Hey, if need be, I could be talked into trading Gilmore to maximize the rebuild for the same reasons.  
 

 

 

  I really like your theme, except Dayo is 20 lbs lite to be an everydown 3.

Maybe it's his dream job and he comes back most of the way there... but i doubt there is much chance of it.

 In our situation, we are going to get interest for him. lol 

 Teams with 2 first rd draft picks might be targets.

  Trade him and Grover and we are picking first next draft.

[NewColtsFan]

19 minutes ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

  I really like your theme, except Dayo is 20 lbs lite to be an everydown 3.

Maybe it's his dream job and he comes back most of the way there... but i doubt there is much chance of it.

 In our situation, we are going to get interest for him. lol 

 Teams with 2 first rd draft picks might be targets.

  Trade him and Grover and we are picking first next draft.

I don’t know what Dayo’s true weight is.  The weights listed in the Colts roster are almost worthless to me.  
 

Is he 265?   Or 275?   If he can get to 285 then I think we might have something.   But I’m not sure Dayo is athletic and twitchy enough to be anything more than just a good DE.   Ideally, you’d want better. 
 

Put another way, my real fear is that both Paye and Dayo are Left Defensive ends and that neither is a high level pass rushing right defensive end.  They’re redundant.  Otherwise, Dayo might only play 50-60 percent of snaps rushing from the inside in the NASCAR package like Tyquan used to do.  Maybe a better version of TL. 

[throwing BBZ]

3 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

I don’t know what Dayo’s true weight is.  The weights listed in the Colts roster are almost worthless to me.  
 

Is he 265?   Or 275?   If he can get to 285 then I think we might have something.   But I’m not sure Dayo is athletic and twitchy enough to be anything more than just a good DE.   Ideally, you’d want better. 
 

Put another way, my real fear is that both Paye and Dayo are Left Defensive ends and that neither is a high level pass rushing right defensive end.  They’re redundant.  Otherwise, Dayo might only play 50-60 percent of snaps rushing from the inside in the NASCAR package like Tyquan used to do.  Maybe a better version of TL. 

 

 We can only hope better than TL who has been one of Ballards poor decisions. Ballard saw him as projecting better inside than out. Like Banogu standing up. Critical Ballard philosophical failures.

 Kwity and Dayo should continue to get better, we will see what their peak is.

 I would be excited if we added a true dynamic pass rusher and we had those three as our anchors. There wold be plenty of value there over a long season. 

[DougDew]

On 2/4/2023 at 9:49 PM, NewColtsFan said:

I’m happy to offer my opinion. 
 

I’m likely doing more than people would expect but less than what some here would want.  
 

First, I view ‘23 as a rebuild year that will probably end with a losing record.  And I’m fine with that.  
 

So….  Here are my moves, designed to pick up draft picks and add needed cap space. 
 

1.   Cutting Ryan clearing cap space. 
 

2.   Trading Buckner for picks and clearing cap space. 
 

3.   Trading Kelly for picks and clearing cap space. 
 

4.   Trading Moore for picks and clearing cap space.  

 

Not touching Leonard or Nelson for at least one more year., maybe longer.  You’d get only penny’s on the dollar in picks and the dead cap hits would be way, way too severe.   That’s a lose-lose.    But I view the rebuild as a multiyear effort with a new coaching staff and needs to be done.  

Shedding Buckner, Kelly, Moore...and it seems like Nelson and Leonard too if you could.  That does look like a rebuild.

[lollygagger8]

I'm sure I'm in the minority about Leonard, but I'd trade him. 

 

Moore, Cox and Kelly I'm totally ok with trading as well. 

 

[Nevbot]

36 minutes ago, lollygagger8 said:

I'm sure I'm in the minority about Leonard, but I'd trade him. 

 

Moore, Cox and Kelly I'm totally ok with trading as well. 

 

Certainly not in the minority.  I have been clamoring for well before the 22 season even started, as I never believed Leonard would play until age 30...and it certainly is trending that way at this time.  Something about a 220 pound LB making 130 tackles per season that just doesn't add up.  He will break eventually.

If a team gave us say...a second and a 5th round pick offer for Leonard, but we have to pay a portion of his salary for this year and next...I might think about it. 

I think Q is a keep and will be fine in the long run.

Bucker and JT should absolutely be expendable at this point though if we are really looking to build.  Bucker for the aforementioned reasons and JT for basically the same reasons.  He is young, we could get a decent package for him, and he plays a position that (if he is lucky) might still be in the league 5 years from now.  We can find another RB talent in any draft. 

[Defjamz26]

3 hours ago, lollygagger8 said:

I'm sure I'm in the minority about Leonard, but I'd trade him. 

 

Moore, Cox and Kelly I'm totally ok with trading as well. 

 

I’d trade Leonard as well but his contract is almost Impossible to move because of the dead money. 
 

But yeah Pittman, Moore, Cox, Kelly, Buckner, and Stewart I’d consider moving too.

[crazycolt1]

Gutting the team is not what needs to be done. 

[NewColtsFan]

6 hours ago, DougDew said:

Shedding Buckner, Kelly, Moore...and it seems like Nelson and Leonard too if you could.  That does look like a rebuild.

To be clear….   I still believe in Leonard and Buckner.   I think it’s better to hold them for at least another year to see if they bounce back.  
 

A year from now the Colts will have a better idea of how healthy they are and will they ever be great again?   Or very good?   Or just good.   But certainly better than this year.   And by that point the Colts will know more about the state of their rebuild.    If the Colts need to move on from those two then I want as much good info as I can get to make an informed choice.   I don’t want to trade them only to have them return to form for another team.  So the “when” matters. 
 

Also….  In the theme of a rebuild, I could also include trading Gilmore for picks and cap space and Foles on a simple pick swap.   (Foles and a 7 for a better 7).  

[DougDew]

14 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

To be clear….   I still believe in Leonard and Buckner.   I think it’s better to hold them for at least another year to see if they bounce back.  
 

A year from now the Colts will have a better idea of how healthy they are and will they ever be great again?   Or very good?   Or just good.   But certainly better than this year.   And by that point the Colts will know more about the state of their rebuild.    If the Colts need to move on from those two then I want as much good info as I can get to make an informed choice.   I don’t want to trade them only to have them return to form for another team.  So the “when” matters. 
 

Also….  In the theme of a rebuild, I could also include trading Gilmore for picks and cap space and Foles on a simple pick swap.   (Foles and a 7 for a better 7).  

My opinion is that Kelly and Moore should be traded or cut because their replacements are already on the roster, IMO.  Buckner could be traded, or restructured.   

 

I don't see a reason to keep Gilmore during a year that is sure to be rebuild, but moving him leaves us thin at Corner.

[crazycolt1]

So trade our best defensive player because you don't want to pay him? 

That's total horse dung.

[NewColtsFan]

32 minutes ago, DougDew said:

My opinion is that Kelly and Moore should be traded or cut because their replacements are already on the roster, IMO.  Buckner could be traded, or restructured.   

 

I don't see a reason to keep Gilmore during a year that is sure to be rebuild, but moving him leaves us thin at Corner.

Sorry….   I wrote Leonard and Buckner.   I actually meant Leonard and Nelson.   My bad.    Too many names rattling around inside my old head.    I’m 66 now.   

[Nickster]

36 minutes ago, DougDew said:

My opinion is that Kelly and Moore should be traded or cut because their replacements are already on the roster, IMO.  Buckner could be traded, or restructured.   

 

I don't see a reason to keep Gilmore during a year that is sure to be rebuild, but moving him leaves us thin at Corner.

I think we should definitely trade Gilmore.  I think some teams would be interested in him at a relatively decent contract and displaying a year in which he stayed healthy.

 

I think we should shop Buckner.   See what the interest is.  He'll be 31 when his next contract is due.  I don't see signing him to another big money as being a solid investment.  Some guys still produce at that age but not many.   

 

Heyward is still a monster older than that, but it's pretty rare.

[crazycolt1]

Now that all you arm chair GMs have the roster figured out, Ballard just has to read the forum and it's off to a super bowl win next season.  

[LJpalmbeacher2]

On 2/4/2023 at 10:00 AM, NewColtsFan said:

Really?   Matt Ryan doesn’t score points?   The quarterback doesn’t score points?  
 

Offensive line doesn’t help score points? 

 

The Colts situation is evolving because the focus has been in the two lines.   The “point scorers” as you think if them are all on their rookie contracts.   This will change as the roster does.  This is not set in stone. 
 

 

 

I think @Indeee meant for OUR TEAM. 

[jbaron04]

On 2/4/2023 at 8:54 AM, csmopar said:

I’m trading Moore, he’s over paid and over rated. 
 

im cutting or trading Kelly. 
 

Ryan is gone for sure, cutting him

Leonard, I’d field trades on but his contract makes it tough with injuries.

 

mo Allie isn’t worth it, he needs to go

 

the rest, I’m keeping

I agree with all these , I would also add in foles 

[BlackTiger]

We will have plenty of cap space after a few moves.  I do think we have too much money going to the wrong positions but its not why the team was bad.  The offense just didnt preform 

 

[IndyEric07]

Look at what Philly and KC did to their rosters this year! Unlike the Colts they went after the positions that are needed in order to score points mostly at wr! KC got rid of Hill, but replaces him with Juju, MVS, Toney, Skyy and Philly got AJ Brown/Pascal, all contributing in the SB.

The Colts WR position needs a major overhaul! Pitt and Pierce are ok, but im still suspect on PC even though he was ok this year, and Strachen/Dulin can be replaced! We need to add another proven veteran wr or 2 that can contribute more for the offense and not just disappear! 
Also, gotta look at replacing Mo AllyCox! Im hoping Woods and/or Olgetree can become as good or better than the Kelces/Kittles of the league!